Bro Hajji Shows Takfir Against Abu Bakr and Umar From the Books of the 12er Shia

[Rationalist]

[iceman]

HE HASN'T GOT THE ACTUAL BOOK. Why? Was it that hard to get hold of? IT'S ON PDF BUT THE CAMERA WON'T BE ABLE TO PICK IT UP. Wow. Excuses right at the very beginning. Not a very good start!

[iceman]

He holds a book and mentions things just as anyone could hold a book and mention things from it, in bits and pieces to their desire without looking at the entire paragraph, chapter and context.

He mentions Ayatollah Khomeini and says 'la'anatullah aleh' ? Ask him, What do you know about Khomeini? Let me tell you just one thing about Khomeini, forget about anything else.

Despite being, not just a Shia but also a Scholar, not just a Scholar but Marja e Taqleed, he shared his view and not only that in fact it was part of his belief and also gave a fatwa on it that, the Prophet s.a.w didn't have only one natural  (haqeeqy) daughter as the entire shia believe, in fact he believed they were four.

There are plenty of other facts that I can put forward. Why aren't things like this mentioned and told? Because such people, as the one in the video and certain people on this site, are simply brain washed right from the very beginning and groomed as anti Shia. The seed of grudge and hatred regarding the Shia has been sowed into them from day one.

You pick up a book and wave it around as that book and what ever is in it is hujjah upon us. Anyone can pick up one of your authentic books wave it around and mention things from it and despite the book being labelled authentic but you have every excuse to deny and reject that piece of information. 😊

[iceman]

Bro Hajji Shows Takfir Against Abu Bakr and Umar From the Books of the 12er Shia

The above is the title of your thread. TAKFEER! Tell me, opposing the Prophet s.a.w, not adhereing and acknowledging the Prophet s.a.w, not saying 'LABEYK YA RASULULLAH' but infact saying 'we have the book of Allah amongst us, the book of Allah is sufficient for us' forget about takfeer, wouldn't this be seen as disrespectful towards the Prophet s.a.w and require at leadt some kind of condemnation?😊

Do we have any decency or shame for the Prophet s.a.w? No, so who cares about the rest of us. We're not worried about ourselves.

[Rationalist]

One video and you get so frustrated and reply 3 times. This is giving me a good laugh.

[Rationalist]

He mentions Ayatollah Khomeini and says 'la'anatullah aleh' ? Ask him, What do you know about Khomeini? Let me tell you just one thing about Khomeini, forget about anything else.

Last time I checked the 12er Shia said Lana is just a dua asking for the removal of mercy. So why are you questioning it?

Despite being, not just a Shia but also a Scholar, not just a Scholar but Marja e Taqleed, he shared his view and not only that in fact it was part of his belief and also gave a fatwa on it that, the Prophet s.a.w didn't have only one natural  (haqeeqy) daughter as the entire shia believe, in fact he believed they were four.

No big deal here. Nahj al Balagha had a sermon where Imam Ali says that Uthmaan married the Prophet's (sawas) daugthers. Recall Shaykh Saduq also held the view that Umar married Ali's daugther.

There are plenty of other facts that I can put forward. Why aren't things like this mentioned and told? Because such people, as the one in the video and certain people on this site, are simply brain washed right from the very beginning and groomed as anti Shia. The seed of grudge and hatred regarding the Shia has been sowed into them from day one.

No Sunni is anti Shia. They are anti Rafidah. There is a big difference. In Yemen Sunnis and Shias pray behind each other for centuries. Anyways thanks for being honest. I am glad you are explaning the reasons why taqiyyah is used till the reappearance of the 12th Imam.

You pick up a book and wave it around as that book and what ever is in it is hujjah upon us. Anyone can pick up one of your authentic books wave it around and mention things from it and despite the book being labelled authentic but you have every excuse to deny and reject that piece of information. 😊

Tabarra and Tawalla are pillars in your sect. This books goes into what encapsulates tabarra.

[Rationalist]

Bro Hajji Shows Takfir Against Abu Bakr and Umar From the Books of the 12er Shia

The above is the title of your thread. TAKFEER! Tell me, opposing the Prophet s.a.w, not adhereing and acknowledging the Prophet s.a.w, not saying 'LABEYK YA RASULULLAH' but infact saying 'we have the book of Allah amongst us, the book of Allah is sufficient for us' forget about takfeer, wouldn't this be seen as disrespectful towards the Prophet s.a.w and require at leadt some kind of condemnation?😊

Do we have any decency or shame for the Prophet s.a.w? No, so who cares about the rest of us. We're not worried about ourselves.

But I want to discuss takfir. To me even calling someone a monafiq is takfir.

[iceman]

One video and you get so frustrated and reply 3 times. This is giving me a good laugh.

I don't get frustrated 😊 Laugh? What else are you capable of 😀

[iceman]

Last time I checked the 12er Shia said Lana is just a dua asking for the removal of mercy. So why are you questioning it?No big deal here. Nahj al Balagha had a sermon where Imam Ali says that Uthmaan married the Prophet's (sawas) daugthers. Recall Shaykh Saduq also held the view that Umar married Ali's daugther.

No Sunni is anti Shia. They are anti Rafidah. There is a big difference. In Yemen Sunnis and Shias pray behind each other for centuries. Anyways thanks for being honest. I am glad you are explaning the reasons why taqiyyah is used till the reappearance of the 12th Imam.
Tabarra and Tawalla are pillars in your sect. This books goes into what encapsulates tabarra.

"Last time I checked the 12er Shia said Lana is just a dua asking for the removal of mercy. So why are you questioning it?"

I was told that the Shias were the only ones to engage in LANAT. I was also told that it wasn't the way and thing of the Ahle baith or the Sahaba 😊

Is it just a dua asking for the removal of mercy for you as well ? I'm not questioning  it, my point is if we send it then why does it sting you 😀 If you send it then that's fine but if we send it then there seems to be a problem 😊

"No big deal here"

I never said it was a bid deal. You boys seem to be making a big deal out of everything. You need to give it a rest. Otherwise you'll work yourselves out 😊

"Nahj al Balagha had a sermon where Imam Ali says that Uthmaan married the Prophet's (sawas) daugthers. Recall Shaykh Saduq also held the view that Umar married Ali's daugther"

So what seems to be the problem then? Shias have and hold different views. That's the point that I'm trying to make, where as you boys are trying very hard by getting hold of one thing or the other and enforcing it as though it's the belief and opinion of the entire Shia community 😊

"No Sunni is anti Shia. They are anti Rafidah."

😀 You can hide behind what ever excuse and give it what ever name you want. Nose is still a nose at the end of the day 😊

Taqeya is also used by the Sunnis as well as non Muslims. You don't understand the meaning of taqeya so what would you know the purpose and reason for it. You boys should really learn before jumping up and down.

"In Yemen Sunnis and Shias pray behind each other for centuries"

Then there's people like you who want to come along and ruin it. 😊 By the way you have the same practice in Iran and mix marriages in Iraq and the Middle East. You boys really need to seriously think of what you're doing. 😑

[Rationalist]

I was told that the Shias were the only ones to engage in LANAT.

On a daily basis its most likely the 12er Shia.
Tabarra and Tawalla were the pillars of bani Ummayah, and likewise its the same case with the 12er Shia.

Mizra Ghulaam also did it a lot against the people he opposed him. He sent 1000 Lanat in one of his works.

I was also told that it wasn't the way and thing of the Ahle baith or the Sahaba 😊

There are narrations where Imam Ali (as) sent it toward Muawiyah, but not Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthmaan, Ayesha and Hafsa. However, in the 12er Shia books there are supplications against the 3 calipahs and those 2 wives attributed to the Imams.

Is it just a dua asking for the removal of mercy for you as well ?

That's how I see it defined.

I'm not questioning  it, my point is if we send it then why does it sting you 😀 If you send it then that's fine but if we send it then there seems to be a problem 😊

The reason is the 12er Shia send it to the 3 calipahs and in retaliation this brother send it toward Khomeini. The Quran allows us to get even with people. Recall Khomeini also said Ayesha, Talha and Zubair are worst than dogs and pigs.
 

So what seems to be the problem then? Shias have and hold different views. That's the point that I'm trying to make, where as you boys are trying very hard by getting hold of one thing or the other and enforcing it as though it's the belief and opinion of the entire Shia community 😊

Even the number of daughters is not a 12er Shia view. I believe there is a minor Sunni view as well which says that there was only one daugther, and the others were possibly step daugthers. I don't agree with it, but it exist in our books too.
 

😀 You can hide behind what ever excuse and give it what ever name you want. Nose is still a nose at the end of the day 😊

The Yahoodi also faced repeatitive persecution. Nobody can deny that.

Taqeya is also used by the Sunnis as well as non Muslims. You don't understand the meaning of taqeya so what would you know the purpose and reason for it. You boys should really learn before jumping up and down.

There is one taqiyyah which is used for survival situation. The Taqiyyah you are allowed to follow includes even being nice to Sunnis, but have hatred in the inside.

Then there's people like you who want to come along and ruin it. 😊 By the way you have the same practice in Iran and mix marriages in Iraq and the Middle East. You boys really need to seriously think of what you're doing. 😑

How am I ruining it? By showing the world how far Tabarra goes in your sect?

[MuslimK]

Well, this is the classcial Imami Twelver Shia belief about Abubakr & Omar - رضی الله عنهما. I don't know why a member here denies the established beliefs of his sect?

[Rationalist]

Well, this is the classcial Imami Twelver Shia belief about Abubakr & Omar - رضی الله عنهما. I don't know why a member here denies the established beliefs of his sect?

With the exception of Shirazis the 12er Shia do not want to discuss the takfiri views from their own books.Its part of the taqiyyah. They are embarrassed about it. Instead they want to show the faults of the 3 calipahs from the Sunni books, and then justify why they believe they are monafiqs. This is the case with many other points. Its always about going into the Sunni books. The only brave ones among the 12er Shia who are okay and proud of their own books are the Shirazis.

[iceman]

With the exception of Shirazis the 12er Shia do not want to discuss the takfiri views from their own books.Its part of the taqiyyah. They are embarrassed about it. Instead they want to show the faults of the 3 calipahs from the Sunni books, and then justify why they believe they are monafiqs. This is the case with many other points. Its always about going into the Sunni books. The only brave ones among the 12er Shia who are okay and proud of their own books are the Shirazis.

Don't you think it's got to do with difference in opinion rather than your inflammatory view?

Shias do have a difference in view of things and I'm sure you're aware of it. But still you'd like to have a dig at them rather than speaking justly and about facts 😊

[iceman]

Well, this is the classcial Imami Twelver Shia belief about Abubakr & Omar - رضی الله عنهما. I don't know why a member here denies the established beliefs of his sect?

No it isn't and I'm not surprised about your bias view. The member isn't denying but pointing out facts about Shias which you're constantly and deliberately ignoring. Just to put you straight the burning of the door for instance 'Fatimah being harrassed,attacked and getting injured' some Shias believe in it and SOME DON'T. Did you know this? There is a difference in opinion. I wonder why you're hellbent in desperately trying to undermine the Shias 😑

[Rationalist]

Don't you think it's got to do with difference in opinion rather than your inflammatory view?

Shias do have a difference in view of things and I'm sure you're aware of it. But still you'd like to have a dig at them rather than speaking justly and about facts 😊

It difficult to do that when the one who you believe is a momin is called a monafiq.

[iceman]

It difficult to do that when the one who you believe is a momin is called a monafiq.

Why is it difficult? There's Muslims in this day and age which some consider either Kafir or I'll faithed. You don't see them jumping up and down about it. There's companions who have been labelled as Murtad after the demise of Muhammad s.a.w by the Ahle Sunnah for certain reasons, you don't see us making a big issue about it.

You have your 4th rightly guided Caliph of the Muslims and the Ulul Amre of the time, those who opposed him and went further by using their influence and waging war on the Caliph and Ulul Amre, we don't see you honouring the Caliph and crititicising and condemning those who took on violence and threatening behaviour to have their demands met.

I can give you more examples. It works both ways. My advice is don't get adjitated and personal over a few desired individuals. Everybody has and is entitled to their own opinion and have the right to express how they feel and what they think just like you. After all they weren't saints or Infallibles, so just give it a rest and calm down.

[Rationalist]

There's companions who have been labelled as Murtad after the demise of Muhammad s.a.w by the Ahle Sunnah for certain reasons, you don't see us making a big issue about it.

The reason is they have nothing to do with your sect. They weren't Shia.

You have your 4th rightly guided Caliph of the Muslims and the Ulul Amre of the time, those who opposed him and went further by using their influence and waging war on the Caliph and Ulul Amre, we don't see you honouring the Caliph and crititicising and condemning those who took on violence and threatening behaviour to have their demands met.

The Sunni don't know much about that history. Its whitewashed, and also the most the reliable narrators were killed by the rulers. So historical references have weakened down. Plus the Ummayads and Abbasids are dead. I am more interested in standing up against extremist wahabis and 12er Shia. They are today's problem.

The difference between the two is the Sunni extremist is open, and the 12er Shia covers it by taqiyyah.

I can give you more examples. It works both ways.

I agree with you. In fact, I don't think even the Mahdi will be able to end this. Just like how Sunnis and Shias existed in Imam Ali (as) government that will be the case with the Mahdi.

My advice is don't get adjitated and personal over a few desired individuals. Everybody has and is entitled to their own opinion and have the right to express how they feel and what they think just like you. After all they weren't saints or Infallibles, so just give it a rest and calm down.

I will never be silent against Takfiris. Calling individual kaffirs or monafiqs is wrong and the people doing it should be exposed. Again you are right about one thing. This issue will outlives me, and in fact I think will outlive even the Mahdi's era, as it outlived the the Imams you number 1-11.

[iceman]

The reason is they have nothing to do with your sect. They weren't Shia.
The Sunni don't know much about that history. Its whitewashed, and also the most the reliable narrators were killed by the rulers. So historical references have weakened down. Plus the Ummayads and Abbasids are dead. I am more interested in standing up against extremist wahabis and 12er Shia. They are today's problem.

The difference between the two is the Sunni extremist is open, and the 12er Shia covers it by taqiyyah.
I agree with you. In fact, I don't think even the Mahdi will be able to end this. Just like how Sunnis and Shias existed in Imam Ali (as) government that will be the case with the Mahdi.

I will never be silent against Takfiris. Calling individual kaffirs or monafiqs is wrong and the people doing it should be exposed. Again you are right about one thing. This issue will outlives me, and in fact I think will outlive even the Mahdi's era, as it outlived the the Imams you number 1-11.

This issue is about companions of the Prophet saw, how does one feel about them. You being a Sunni label Malik bin Nuwayrah and members of his clan, who happened to be companions, as murtad. That's how far you've gone and been. But when it comes to the others expressing there thought and opinion about certain Companions then you suddenly seem to make a big issue about it. You jump to their defence but at a really extreme level.  WHY?

Do you  understand my point? There are two points here;

1, How one feels or believes in or about certain Companions.

2, The element of extremism be it in a belief or reaction.

The first point, you also criticise and condemn companions but in fact go well further and beyond that but you don't see that as Takfeer towards Sahaba.

The second point is the element of extremism in your reaction towards certain matters and issues concerning others.

You point out and complain but you have the same thing within you.

[Rationalist]

This issue is about companions of the Prophet saw, how does one feel about them. You being a Sunni label Malik bin Nuwayrah and members of his clan, who happened to be companions, as murtad. That's how far you've gone and been. But when it comes to the others expressing there thought and opinion about certain Companions then you suddenly seem to make a big issue about it. You jump to their defence but at a really extreme level.  WHY?

Do you  understand my point? There are two points here;

1, How one feels or believes in or about certain Companions.

2, The element of extremism be it in a belief or reaction.

The first point, you also criticise and condemn companions but in fact go well further and beyond that but you don't see that as Takfeer towards Sahaba.

The second point is the element of extremism in your reaction towards certain matters and issues concerning others.

You point out and complain but you have the same thing within you.

The takfir against Malik is wrong. In fact it was Umar who actually disagreed with Abi Bakr on how to deal with the seperatist. So its not a unanimous Sunni view.

The reality is takfir exist on both sides. I believe the Mutazilla were the most fair when it came to history.

[MuslimK]

No it isn't and I'm not surprised about your bias view. The member isn't denying but pointing out facts about Shias which you're constantly and deliberately ignoring. Just to put you straight the burning of the door for instance 'Fatimah being harrassed,attacked and getting injured' some Shias believe in it and SOME DON'T. Did you know this? There is a difference in opinion. I wonder why you're hellbent in desperately trying to undermine the Shias 😑

You are wrong to compare an alleged historical incident (even disputed by some Shia as you said) with an established belief of your Imami sect and that is takfir and slander of Abubakr & Omar.