TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Hadith-Rijal => Topic started by: scusemyenglish on April 25, 2016, 10:21:14 AM
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Salam Aylikoum.
Please can you explain me why he says "200 hadeeth = 1 hr" in this article?
ATTACK #1: How could Imam Bukhari writes down 600,000 hadeeth in 16 years. They says
“600,000 hadith / 16 years = 37,500 per year = 3,125 per month = 104.66 per day (30 days
in a month) = 8.68 hadith per hour (assuming a 12 hour day).
no breaks for lunch, 5 times prayer, kentut, toilet, public holidays, wesak day etc. bullshit.
Also, where did he get the time to teach 90,000 people ??
MY REPLY: That’s because you’re an idiot as like any typical run-of-the-mills Anti Hadeeth. When
we say Hadeeth, we refer to “matn” and “sanad”. 1 hadeeth have one matn and one sanad. The
next hadeeth will have the same matn but different sanad. The third hadeeth will have the same
sanad but different matn.
Therefore, it doesn’t take Imam Bukhari more than one hour to memorize/analyze/write down 200
hadeeth at least.
200 hadeeth = 1 hr
2400 hadeeth = 12 hrs/day
38400 hadeeth= In 16 days(average)
And for 16 years Imam Bukhari have the capacity to narrate/analyze/write more than
14,016,000 hadeeth.
http://antiantihadeeth.blogspot.fr/2008/05/defending-imam-bukhari-from-anti_14.html
Barak'Allah ou fikoum.
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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
In some debates I engaged in with Christians and the fellow Rafidha, I have heard this allegation against Imam al-Bukhari (R.A), which they have claimed that it was impossible for al-Bukhari to write down 600,000 Sahih Hadiths in his Sahih because it was way too much, now the reply is very simple, focus with me my dear brother:
The "Muhaditheen" (Scholars of 'Ilm al-Hadith) consider each narration (رواية) with a different chain of narration (سند) a hadith by itself.
In order to understand, now that if there was one hadith with for example 2,000 ways (ways it reached us .. through different people or narrators) .. the scholars of 'Ilm al-Hadith will consider it to be 2,000 hadiths, each way it was reached to us a single hadith!
So when al-Bukhari has 600,000 hadiths in his Sahih, this doesn't mean at all that there are 600,000 hadiths every single one differs from the other, but there are different ways it reached us through different people or narrators and the hadith is the same and isn't different from the other.
Now to those who claim that it is very hard for al-Bukhari to write down all the hadiths in his Sahih during 16 years, here is a list of some of the many people who wrote books .. BOOKS .. in an outstanding period of time:
- Charles Harold St. John Hamilton (8 August 1876 – 24 December 1961) was an English writer who is estimated to have written about 100 million words in his lifetime. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hamilton_(writer)
- Ryoki Inoue wrote 999 great tales across six years, together with stories, about farwest, war, cops, spying, love and science fiction. Source: http://www.ryoki.com.br/index_en.htm
- Enid Blyton wrote over 700 children's books and over 10,000 short stories. Source: http://www.abebooks.co.uk/docs/ReadingRoom/Author/enidBlyton.shtml
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Sahit,
And it's true that El Albani knew 100 000 hadeeth?
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Sahit,
And it's true that El Albani knew 100 000 hadeeth?
No it's not true my dear brother, some of the Sunnah because they love al-Albani رحمه الله so much exaggerate a bit, if you listen to his lectures in سلسلة الهدى والنور .. sometimes he says that I can't remember this hadith, or when someone asks him about a hadith he doesn't remember, al-Albani رحمه الله said call me again tomorrow and we'll discuss the hadith.
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Mashallah. Very useful topic and posts.
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I also heard that Ibn Taymiyyah wrote his book "Aqeedat-ul-Wasitiyyah" as a letter in an afternoon.
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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
In some debates I engaged in with Christians and the fellow Rafidha, I have heard this allegation against Imam al-Bukhari (R.A), which they have claimed that it was impossible for al-Bukhari to write down 600,000 Sahih Hadiths in his Sahih because it was way too much, now the reply is very simple, focus with me my dear brother:
The "Muhaditheen" (Scholars of 'Ilm al-Hadith) consider each narration (رواية) with a different chain of narration (سند) a hadith by itself.
In order to understand, now that if there was one hadith with for example 2,000 ways (ways it reached us .. through different people or narrators) .. the scholars of 'Ilm al-Hadith will consider it to be 2,000 hadiths, each way it was reached to us a single hadith!
So when al-Bukhari has 600,000 hadiths in his Sahih, this doesn't mean at all that there are 600,000 hadiths every single one differs from the other, but there are different ways it reached us through different people or narrators and the hadith is the same and isn't different from the other.
Now to those who claim that it is very hard for al-Bukhari to write down all the hadiths in his Sahih during 16 years, here is a list of some of the many people who wrote books .. BOOKS .. in an outstanding period of time:
- Charles Harold St. John Hamilton (8 August 1876 – 24 December 1961) was an English writer who is estimated to have written about 100 million words in his lifetime. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hamilton_(writer)
- Ryoki Inoue wrote 999 great tales across six years, together with stories, about farwest, war, cops, spying, love and science fiction. Source: http://www.ryoki.com.br/index_en.htm
- Enid Blyton wrote over 700 children's books and over 10,000 short stories. Source: http://www.abebooks.co.uk/docs/ReadingRoom/Author/enidBlyton.shtml
Well,brother if its true that he wrote 600000 narrations then where are all those huge number of narrations?
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He "wrote" 600k? I'm not sure of this. He "memorized" is much more likely.
Most manuscripts from the first five centuries are lost akhi. This is the case with both Sunni and Shia hadiths.
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While I don't find the number odd, keep in mind Arabs greatly exaggerate numbers.
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I don't think Arabs necessarily are responsible here. ;)
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I think the first think is to know the number of daif hadith among this 600 000 hadith.
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I also heard that Ibn Taymiyyah wrote his book "Aqeedat-ul-Wasitiyyah" as a letter in an afternoon.
Yes this is true.
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Well,brother if its true that he wrote 600000 narrations then where are all those huge number of narrations?
;D ;D
Did you honestly read what I wrote?
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After Bukhari we will talk about Imam Ahmad. With 1 million hadith.
Acording to my imam. hadith = Chains of narration, athars and comments of scholars etc...
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Did you honestly read what I wrote?
Brother in your first part you took the side that because of different ways number reached to 600k
& in another half you took the stand that it was not hard for al-bukhari to write down 600k.
That's why i asked where are those narrations if you are taking another stand also.Though i don't disagree with the way of your dual approach as far as discussion is concerned.
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He "wrote" 600k? I'm not sure of this. He "memorized" is much more likely.
Most manuscripts from the first five centuries are lost akhi. This is the case with both Sunni and Shia hadiths.
Only memorizing most of narrations of prophet(sa) and not writing down will raise the question on pious character(in sunnis) of al-bukhari.As he has written one of well known book of sahih sita,so brother i don't think that he has memorized only and not written. Brother what you said about loss of manuscript could be true about 600k hadiths also but a huge loss of around 98% and that of al-buhari is quite difficult to accept though it could be true.
But i think what brother Hani suggested is more likely correct that arabs would have exaggerated about number.
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He "wrote" 600k? I'm not sure of this. He "memorized" is much more likely.
Most manuscripts from the first five centuries are lost akhi. This is the case with both Sunni and Shia hadiths.
Only memorizing most of narrations of prophet(sa) and not writing down will raise the question on pious character(in sunnis) of al-bukhari.As he has written one of well known book of sahih sita,so brother i don't think that he has memorized only and not written. Brother what you said about loss of manuscript could be true about 600k hadiths also but a huge loss of around 98% and that of al-buhari is quite difficult to accept though it could be true.
But i think what brother Hani suggested is more likely correct that arabs would have exaggerated about number.
First of all brother, it is not beneficial to write all those narrations, since the difference is only the chain.
For example, if Al Bukhari heard a hadith from Ahmad, then heard the same hadith from Ibn Al Madeeni, then from Al Thuhali, then from Hisham bin Ammar, it is enough for him to write down ONE chain. However, in reality, it is counted as knowing FOUR hadiths. Why would he write it down four times?
The Sunni view is that all of the hadiths of laws of the Prophet peace be upon him have been preserved.
Can you say the same about the hadiths of the Imams?
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I also heard that Ibn Taymiyyah wrote his book "Aqeedat-ul-Wasitiyyah" as a letter in an afternoon.
The specialist of Ibn Taymiya in Belgium, Yahya Michot, have most of books from Ibn Taymiya.
He says" my own bookcase in my house have 5 meters full of books from Ibn Taymiya"
I think we have no original manuscrit of Ibn Taymiya.
According to Yahya Michot Ibn Taymiya embody Islam mash'Allah
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He "wrote" 600k? I'm not sure of this. He "memorized" is much more likely.
Most manuscripts from the first five centuries are lost akhi. This is the case with both Sunni and Shia hadiths.
Only memorizing most of narrations of prophet(sa) and not writing down will raise the question on pious character(in sunnis) of al-bukhari.As he has written one of well known book of sahih sita,so brother i don't think that he has memorized only and not written. Brother what you said about loss of manuscript could be true about 600k hadiths also but a huge loss of around 98% and that of al-buhari is quite difficult to accept though it could be true.
But i think what brother Hani suggested is more likely correct that arabs would have exaggerated about number.
First of all brother, it is not beneficial to write all those narrations, since the difference is only the chain.
For example, if Al Bukhari heard a hadith from Ahmad, then heard the same hadith from Ibn Al Madeeni, then from Al Thuhali, then from Hisham bin Ammar, it is enough for him to write down ONE chain. However, in reality, it is counted as knowing FOUR hadiths. Why would he write it down four times?
Its beneficial brother because more number of chain will help to make the hadith to reach at mutawatir level and we know any sahih hadith reaching to mutawatir level in world of hadiths holds much more value.
The Sunni view is that all of the hadiths of laws of the Prophet peace be upon him have been preserved.
Can you say the same about the hadiths of the Imams?
No brother ,neither sunni nor shia can say this that laws are exactly preserved otherwise sunnis wouldn't have opted 4(or more than one) school of Law in a single time period.
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Its beneficial brother because more number of chain will help to make the hadith to reach at mutawatir level and we know any sahih hadith reaching to mutawatir level in world of hadiths holds much more value.
I think u might have misunderstood what mutawatir means in sunni tradition. it doesnt mean 'many chains even though from one narrator' (this could be ahad or aziz type of narration), it means many chains from different sahabah hearing the same thing from the messenger. Thus consider to be the highest level of authenticity in sahih grading.
I'm summarizing the issue since u only mentioned about mutawatir in terms of 'how many chains'. Mutawatir should have 4 conditions met, the one that i mentioned above is one of it, insyaAllah..
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Brother Solomon, perhaps you should join our Zello chatroom. It would be easier to explain through audio.
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Brother Solomon, perhaps you should join our Zello chatroom. It would be easier to explain through audio.
Its quite easier to understand here also till we discuss and not debate,brother if i had done any mistake or misunderstood any of your point you could write it as you wrote previously.
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It has taken a day and a half to express a point of view on this forum brother.
Through voice, conversations are made easier.
We will not be debating. I just want to explain my view clearly.
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In Bukhari we have 7563 hadith.
If we divide 600 000 with 7563 we have 80.
So we can admitte that for 1 hadith in bukhari we have 80 chains of narration? or it's wrong?
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In Bukhari we have 7563 hadith.
If we divide 600 000 with 7563 we have 80.
So we can admitte that for 1 hadith in bukhari we have 80 chains of narration? or it's wrong?
You forgot all the weak hadiths that Al Bukhari didn't include.
Some narrations have more than 80 chains. Al Tabarani had 150 chains for one hadith: من كذب علي متعمدا
He had much more but didn't write them down because it would be repetitive.
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Salam.
someone can provide narations when Bukhari talk about this 600 000 hadith?
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Its beneficial brother because more number of chain will help to make the hadith to reach at mutawatir level and we know any sahih hadith reaching to mutawatir level in world of hadiths holds much more value.
I believe thats called wasting people's time just to make a Hadith look more authentic. Which is wrong (and something websites like al-Islam and answering-ansar are guilty of). If a Hadith is Sahih, its Sahih. If its Mutawatir then it just further removes doubt. Is it really necessary to have several versions of exactly the same Hadith to the point where your book contains 600,000 Hadiths that are mostly the same? No. Its pointless and a waste of time.
No brother ,neither sunni nor shia can say this that laws are exactly preserved otherwise sunnis wouldn't have opted 4(or more than one) school of Law in a single time period.
Inevitably some people will disagree on how a text should be viewed. Its ludricous to expect the millions of Muslims to all have the same opinion. That doesn't mean it hasn't been preserved.