TwelverShia.net Forum

Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Imam Ali

Asalamualaikum.

Is the following narration authentic?

Abdulla Ibn Al-Mubarak was asked:

Which of them is better, Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan رضي الله عنه or Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz?.

He said: 'By Allah, the dust that has entered the nose of Muawiya with the Messenger of Allah is better than Umar one thousand times. Muawiya prayed behind the Messenger of Allah (saw) . When he (SAW) said: Samia Allahu leman hamida (Allah listens to one who praises him i.e when rising from Ruku) Muawiya said: Rabana wa laka Al-Hamd (Our Lord to you is the praise). What do you want more than this?'

Source: Wafiyat al Ayan by Ibn Khalkan 3/33 & Kitab Al Shariyah by Ajiri 5/2466

fgss

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2016, 08:07:45 PM »
Wa'alaikum salam dear brother,

I dont know about the narration you mentioned above, wheather it is sahih or not, i have also heard the same few times from very few people. But i would like to share a fact about the two. I also dont know who is better of the two. Allah knows best. Here is the fact:-

Muawiya bin abi sufiyan was the first person who started tabbara (abuses etc) on Maula Ali (a.s) even in sermon of friday prayer, there are many evidences for this in Bukhari and Muslim (two most authentic books on hadith). May Allah forgive him.

Umar bin Abdul Aziz was the first person who officially stopped such practice from all states in 99 A.H and ordered to put surah nahl ayah 90 in place of such nonsense in sermon of friday. He was a mujadid of 1st century hijrah who removed the biggest biddah of his time. May Allah bless him.

Its a well known fact.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 08:11:35 PM by Fahad Sani »
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Imam Ali

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2016, 08:32:02 PM »
This thread is only regarding the narration in question.

fgss

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2016, 10:34:11 AM »
This thread is only regarding the narration in question.


My above reply was also an answer to the narration in question, indirectly.

As for narration is concerned there is no any ijma among the ahlul sunnah scholars. Some accept it others reject it. Among those who accept it is also Imam Ibn Kathir, he mentioned this narration in al-Bidayah wan-Nihayah: 8/130. Even if its truely attributed to Abdullah bin Mubarak, then its his opinion. Also in this narration he is referring to acts which Muawiya performed during the life of Holy Prophet. His judgement is best on this. But after Holy Prophet and Khilafat e Rashida he commited many major sins. Which were criticised by sahabahs and Umar bin Abdul Aziz as well. Allah knows best.

Source: https://hayatussahaaba.wordpress.com/category/muawiyah-ibn-abu-sufyan/
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 10:39:58 AM by Fahad Sani »
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Imam Ali

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2016, 07:31:18 PM »
Your understanding of the narration is misplaced.

He's being asked about both personalities in general i.e. not pre/after the time of the Prophet (SAW).

Muawiyah (RA) is Jannah as per the Qur'an.

Let's leave it at that.

fgss

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2016, 08:21:16 PM »
Its not appropriate to make conclusions or judgements based on a single person's opinion. He may be true or may be wrong. anyway leave it.

But i want to know as you said Muawiyah (RA) is Jannah as per the Qur'an.

Based on which verse? plz elaborate.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Imam Ali

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2016, 08:37:25 PM »
I told you before this thread is strictly about the narration.

Start a separate thread, and I'm sure someone who can be bothered will entertain you. Until then, please keep your Shia infested views of Sayyidah Mu'awiyah (RA) out of this thread.

fgss

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2016, 08:47:02 PM »
Ok. sure.

but these are not shia infested views.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Rationalist

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 07:52:57 AM »
Asalamualaikum.

Is the following narration authentic?

Abdulla Ibn Al-Mubarak was asked:

Which of them is better, Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan رضي الله عنه or Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz?.

He said: 'By Allah, the dust that has entered the nose of Muawiya with the Messenger of Allah is better than Umar one thousand times. Muawiya prayed behind the Messenger of Allah (saw) . When he (SAW) said: Samia Allahu leman hamida (Allah listens to one who praises him i.e when rising from Ruku) Muawiya said: Rabana wa laka Al-Hamd (Our Lord to you is the praise). What do you want more than this?'

Source: Wafiyat al Ayan by Ibn Khalkan 3/33 & Kitab Al Shariyah by Ajiri 5/2466

Is the translation accurate? I remember this is what the narration says...

The dust in the nostrils of Mu`awiya's horse is better than `Umar ibn `Abd al-`Aziz!"

So the noun 'horse' is removed in your translation.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2016, 07:28:49 AM »
Wa'alaikum salam dear brother,

I dont know about the narration you mentioned above, wheather it is sahih or not, i have also heard the same few times from very few people. But i would like to share a fact about the two. I also dont know who is better of the two. Allah knows best. Here is the fact:-

Muawiya bin abi sufiyan was the first person who started tabbara (abuses etc) on Maula Ali (a.s) even in sermon of friday prayer, there are many evidences for this in Bukhari and Muslim (two most authentic books on hadith). May Allah forgive him.

Shiekh ‘Ali Muhammad as-Sallabi writes:

    “The Shi’a accused Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah(ra) of making people revile and curse Sayyiduna ‘Ali(ra) on the pulpits of the Mosques, but this claim is not true. What causes a great deal of annoyance is the fact that researchers picked up this fabrication, even though it is worthless, without subjecting it to critical analysis. Later historians accepted it as fact, seeing no need to discuss it, although there is no proof at all in any sound report. We cannot rely on what is narrated in in the books of ad-Dumayri, al-Ya’qoobi and Abul Faraj al-Isfahaani.

    Moreover, it should be noted that the accurate history confirms something other than what these writers say, which is that Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah(ra) respected Sayyiduna ‘Ali(ra) and his noble family and held them in high esteem. The story about Sayyiduna ‘Ali(ra) being cursed on the pulpits of the Umayyads is not in accordance with the nature of events or the nature of the disputing parties.

    If we refer to books of history that were written at the time of the Umayyads, we do not find any such mention. We only find it in the books of later historians who wrote their histories during the time of the ‘Abbaasids with the aim of giving a bad image to the Umayyads in the eyes of the Muslim masses. That was written by al-Mas’ood in Murooj adh-Dhahab and by other Raafidi Shi’a writers.

    These lies crept onto the history books of Ahlus Sunnah without a single sound report. The seriousness of such claims is known to scholars and researchers, especially when the claim comes from the Rawaafid. Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah(ra) is far above such accusations because of his well-known virtues. His conduct was good, and he was praised by some of the Companions and the best of the Taabi’oon, who testified to his religious commitment, knowledge, justice, forbearance and other positive characteristics.

    Once this is established, it seems most unlikely that he would make people curse Sayyiduna ‘Ali(ra) on the pulpits. That would imply that the early generation and the scholars after them who praised him so greatly must have supported his wrongdoing and must have agreed on this misguidance. This is a great lie and fabrication against the scholars among the Companions, Taabi’oon and those who sincerely followed them.

    The one who studies Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah’s(ra) conduct as a ruler – the forbearance and patience for which he was well known, as well as his good conduct in running people’s affairs – will clearly see that this is one of the greatest lies against him. Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah(ra) attained a high level of forbearance and set a sublime example for subsequent generations.

    As the caliph, Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah(ra) had a warm and friend relationship with Sayyiduna ‘Ali’s(ra)  sons; this is well known from the books of biography and history. For example, Sayyiduna al-Hasan(ra) and Sayyiduna al-Husayn(ra) went to Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah, and he gave them two hundred thousand dirhams, saying, “My predecessors never gave anyone such an amount.”

    Sayyiduna Al-Husayn(ra) said to him, “And you never gave to anyone better than us.”

    On another occasion, Sayyiduna al-Hasan(ra) visited Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah(ra), who said to him, “Welcome to the son of the Messenger of Allaah’s(saw) daughter.” He ordered that a sum of three hundred thousand dirhams be given to him.

    This clearly demonstrates that what is claimed about Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah(ra) making the people revile Sayyiduna ‘Ali(ra) is false. How could this happen when there was love, friendship, warmth and respect between him and the sons of ‘Ali? Thus, the truth concerning this matter becomes quite obvious.

    That society was generally restricted by the rulings of the Shari’ah and was keen to implement them. They were most unlikely to slander, curse or utter obscene offensive words. It was narrated from Sayyiduna Ibn Mas’ood(ra) in a hadeeth that is traced back to the Prophet(saw): “The believer is not the one who slanders or curses or speaks obscenity or is foul-mouthed.”

    It was narrated from Ummul Mu’mineen ‘Aa’ishah(ra) in another hadeeth traced directly back to the Prophet(saw): “Do not revile the dead, because they have gone to what they sent on ahead.” (Bukhari)


For more details refer this article:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/part-9-nature-of-relationship-between-ahlebaytra-and-muawiyara/

    [Source: Al-Hasan ibn ‘Ali: His Life & Times, pp. 318-323]

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2016, 07:33:32 AM »
Asalamualaikum.

Is the following narration authentic?

Abdulla Ibn Al-Mubarak was asked:

Which of them is better, Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan رضي الله عنه or Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz?.

He said: 'By Allah, the dust that has entered the nose of Muawiya with the Messenger of Allah is better than Umar one thousand times. Muawiya prayed behind the Messenger of Allah (saw) . When he (SAW) said: Samia Allahu leman hamida (Allah listens to one who praises him i.e when rising from Ruku) Muawiya said: Rabana wa laka Al-Hamd (Our Lord to you is the praise). What do you want more than this?'

Source: Wafiyat al Ayan by Ibn Khalkan 3/33 & Kitab Al Shariyah by Ajiri 5/2466

 
أخبرتنا أم البهاء فاطمة بنت محمد قالت أنا أبو الفضل الرازي أنا جعفر بن عبد الله نا محمد بن هارون نا أبو كريب نا ابن المبارك عن محمد بن مسلم عن إبراهيم بن ميسرة قال ما رأيت عمر بن عبد العزيز ضرب إنسانا قط إلا إنسانا شتم معاوية فإنه ضربه أسواطا
Ibraheem bin Maysara said I have never seen Umar bin abdul Aziz beating anyone with the exception of the one who insulted Muawiyah RadhiAllahanho, He would hit him many lashes [Tareekh Damishq 39/211, Chain is authentic according to Shaykh Zubair Ali Zai in Fadaail al Sahaba according to authentic ahadeeth page 129]

Riyah bin al Jarrah said A person asked Mu`aafaa bin Imran (d 185 h)
 يا أبا مسعود أين عمر بن عبد العزيز من معاوية بن أبي سفيان ؟ فغضب من ذلك غضبا شديدا ، وقال : لا يقاس بأصحاب رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - أحد ، معاوية صاحبه ، وصهره ، وكاتبه ، وأمينه على وحي الله ،
O Abu Masood “What is the role of Muawiyah compared to Umar bin Abdulaziz?”. Mu`aafaa bin Imran got furious and said “Nobody can be compared to the companions of Prophet peace be upon him. Muawiyah was companion of Prophet peace be upon him, Brother in law, scribe and his ameen regarding wahyy of Allah.” [Tareekh Baghdad 1/209 Authenticated by Sh Zubair Ali Zai in tahqiq of Fadail as-Sahaba page 129, see also الآجري 5/2466 واللالكائي 8/1445 وتاريخ بغداد 1/209 ومن طريقه الجورقاني 1/195]




Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2016, 07:38:09 AM »
Its not appropriate to make conclusions or judgements based on a single person's opinion. He may be true or may be wrong. anyway leave it.

But i want to know as you said Muawiyah (RA) is Jannah as per the Qur'an.

Based on which verse? plz elaborate.

Muawiya(RA) is a confirmed Jannati(Inhabitant of Paradise).

Narrated Khalid bin Madan: That ‘Umair bin Al-Aswad Al-Anasi told him that he went to ‘Ubada bin As-Samit while he was staying in his house at the sea-shore of Hims with (his wife) Um Haram. ‘Umair said. Um Haram informed us that she heard the Prophet (SAWS) saying, “Paradise is granted to the first batch of my followers who will undertake a naval expedition.” Um Haram added, I said, ‘O Allah’s Messenger (SAWS)! Will I be amongst them?’ He replied, ‘You are amongst them. [Sahih al-Bukhari #2924]

Comment: So we find that, Paradise is granted to the first batch of Muslims who will undertake a naval expedition, and the interesting fact is that Muawiya(RA) was the one who led the first Naval expedition. We read:

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Um Haram said, “Once the Prophet (SAWS) slept in my house near to me and got up smiling. I said, ‘What makes you smile?’ He replied, ‘Some of my followers who (i.e. in a dream) were presented to me sailing on this green sea like kings on thrones.’ I said, ‘O Allah’s Messenger (SAWS)! Invoke Allah to make me one of them.” So the Prophet (SAWS) invoked Allah for her and went to sleep again. He did the same (i.e. got up and told his dream) and Um Haran repeated her question and he gave the same reply. She said, “Invoke Allah to make me one of them.” He said, “You are among the first batch.” Later on it happened that she went out in the company of her husband ‘Ubada bin As-Samit who went for Jihad and it was the first time the Muslims undertook a naval expedition led by Muawiya.[ Sahih al-Bukhari #2799]

Hafiz Ibn Hajr al-Asqalani said:

 وقوله : قد أوجبوا ” أي فعلوا فعلا وجبت لهم به الجنة .

The saying (Paradise is) “granted” .. Paradise is WAJIB ON THEM. [Fath al Bari; under the commentary of hadith discussed]

Ibn Abdul Barr said:

 ” ﻭﻓﻴﻪ ﻓﻀﻞ ﻟﻤﻌﺎﻭﻳﺔ ﺭﺣﻤﻪ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺇﺫ ﺟﻌﻞ ﻣﻦ ﻏﺰﺍ ﺗﺤﺖ ﺭﺍﻳﺘﻪ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻷ‌ﻭﻟﻴﻦ ﻭﺭﺅﻳﺎ ﺍﻷ‌ﻧﺒﻴﺎﺀ ﺻﻠﻮﺍﺕ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻋﻠﻴﻬﻢ ﻭﺣﻲ “.

There is a proof in this hadith, virtues of Muawiya May Allah have mercy on him.. [at-Tamheed 1/235].

 
Argument raised by deviants to belittle the virtue of Muawiya(RA).

The deviants argue that, this hadith talks about glad tidings just as there are glad tidings of paradise for various good deeds, for example :

Paradise has been guaranteed for the one who performs ablution(wudhu) as per Sunnah & comes to offer salah at masjid.[Refer Sahih Muslim #234]

Likewise , it’s there in the hadith that paradise is guaranteed for the one who guarantees that he will not beg from people. [Refer Sunan Abi Dawud #1643].

So based on these ahadith, it can not be said that every Namazi (one who’s regular with his salah) is an inhabitant of Paradise or every person who abstains from begging is an inhabitant of Paradise.
Answer:

We say that this is a nonsensical argument. It is just like saying about Khulafa e Rashideen i.e. Abu Bakr, Umar Farooq, Uthman and Ali, (May Allah be pleased with them) and the remaining Sahaba(May Allah be pleased with them) from Ashra e Mubashra ( list of the ten guaranteed Jannah) that the ahadith concerning their glad tidings of Jannah(paradise) are just as those for other good deeds.  Now someone because of this, denies/rejects the glad tidings of Jannah to the four rightly guided Caliphs or like to the Companions from Ashra e Mubashra, and says that these glad tidings to them are exactly like those in other ahadith for a Namazi & haaji (pilgrim), this certainly is an argument out of ignorance.

This was the example of some unique/specific personalities. For collective glad tidings, take the example of People of Badr and Hudaiybia, all the Companions(RA) who participated in Badr or Hudaiybia have been given the greetings of forgiveness.

Now if somebody talks nonsense that the tidings of forgiveness for Ahlul Badr is same as those on other good deeds, then what more could be an example of ignorance than this. Basically, those who raise this argument are not able to differentiate between a glad tiding related to the deed/action & a glad tiding related to some personality/Group, and they are confusing the two.

Primarily, the pleasant tidings found in Qur’an and Hadith are of two kinds:

The first kind deals with specific deeds/actions while the second one pertains to specific personalities/Groups.

First kind of tidings aim to emphasize the virtues of some some specific deeds. And the second aims to put emphasis on the virtues of particular personalities or a group.

(i). The first kind of glad tidings comprises of those specific deeds which are not related to any particular personality, group, area or time. Rather, it is possible for every person till the judgement day, to act upon them. Whoever fulfills the requisites of these deeds, will be entitled to the tidings, and this entitlement will be decided on the day of judgement, because it is known to Allah only as to who performed these deeds duly & who deserves it.

Therefore, these greetings of paradise are connected with deeds/actions, and their purpose is to mention the virtues of these deeds, like virtues of Hajj, Salah, Fasting etc.

(ii). But the second type of glad tidings, consisting of greetings about particular individuals or group, is for special individuals & group only. It similarly is for a distinctive time or area/territory. In this kind, particular individuals/group of a specific time/duration & area/territory are already determined, just as the glad tidings concerning the four rightly-guided Caliphs, and Ashra Mubashhra(The ten promised Paradise), or for As’haab Badr(people of Badr’s battle) or As’haab e Hudaibiya (people of Hudaiybia) and others.

The first kind of pleasant tidings ascertain the virtues of deeds (Aa’maal). But the individuals are not established, that is why every person can’t be called authorized for it. While, the second kind establishes the individuals itself. Therefore, there is no question of eliminating from the glad tidings, the individuals which have been determined already.

The absolute reality of the deeds whose virtues are mentioned in the first kind of glad tidings, is known to Allah only, so it’s impossible that these deeds would lose their actuality in any season or time.

As for the second kind, Almighty Allah is fully aware of the reality of the individuals whose virtues are stated in the second kind of glad tidings & of their activities for the whole of their life.

Hence it’s impossible that any of them are then attached with any such violation /disobedience that deprives them of the glad tidings, as in this case, it would necessarily cast doubts on Allah’s knowledge, which is not at all possible. (His knowledge is eternal, absolute & perfect).

There’s a condition-related virtue in case of the first kind of good tidings. Therefore, the virtue will only be there if the condition is met. But, there exists an information-related virtue in the second kind of glad tidings. And the information coming from Allah and His Messenger(peace be upon him) can never be wrong.

The first kind of pleasant tidings have a conditional saying, whereas the second has Khabr(information).

This difference is important to understand. It is because of this difference that the first kind of glad tidings (deed-related ), does not necessitate the performer to be an inhabitant of Paradise, as we don’t know whether the essentials are duly fulfilled or not. Whereas, in the second kind of glad tidings, the meaning of forgiveness assures the person to be an inhabitant of Paradise, because there is an act of informing, from Allah the Exalted, which proves the certainty of paradise being granted .

Having clarified both kinds of glad tidings, it is to note that the pleasant tidings found in the hadith of first naval expedition, are from the second kind. I.e.this second kind is related to specific personalities as well as group. Its purpose is to highlight the virtues of a particular group & personalities. It refers to a definite territory/area, time & personalities/group. Individuals as well as group are pre-determined in it. The absolute reality of these individuals is in the knowledge of Allah alone. It has Khabr (information) which can never be wrong. Hence, assuring them to be inhabitants of Paradise. Such as the case of Ahlul Badr’s(people in the battle of Badr) forgiveness.

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2015/11/23/the-remarkable-merit-of-muawiyara-related-to-first-naval-expedition/

fgss

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2016, 02:11:23 PM »

Shiekh ‘Ali Muhammad as-Sallabi writes:

    “The Shi’a accused Sayyiduna Mu’aawiyah(ra) of making people revile and curse Sayyiduna ‘Ali(ra) on the pulpits of the Mosques, but this claim is not true. What causes a great deal of annoyance is the fact that researchers picked up this fabrication, even though it is worthless, without subjecting it to critical analysis. Later historians accepted it as fact, seeing no need to discuss it, although there is no proof at all in any sound report. We cannot rely on what is narrated in in the books of ad-Dumayri, al-Ya’qoobi and Abul Faraj al-Isfahaani.



Brother, first of all let me clarify that i am not here to have a debate on this topic. and as you know this thread is originaly about narration under question. and under its reply you quoted two narrations from history books, which are again opinion of two other persons. everyone has right to give his opinion. similarly abd. b. Mubarak has given his opinion with an example of dust in nose of horse. what's ur personal take on this "Which of them is better, Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan رضي الله عنه or Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz?"

And under my quotes you gave two replys  :)

In one reply you quoted again opinion of a 21st century researcher Shiekh ‘Ali Muhammad as-Sallabi, which is obviously based on the sources he had used during his research. again its his take on this subject. what about other researchers. why you are relying on a single person. do ur own research.

In 2nd reply you quoted many ahadith, which were not required at all. the question was as per quran, not as per hadith.

also there is no need to copy paste too long articles, documents etc. Give short, precise, to the point replys, just one narration is enough.

i hope you will not mind  :)
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Imam Ali

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2016, 09:45:55 PM »
Start a separate thread for that discussion.

Imam Ali

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2016, 04:12:24 AM »
Anyone?

Abu Jasim Al-Salafi

  • *
  • Total likes: 47
  • +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • May Allah guide the Shi'a to the truth
    • مدونة الحق الإسلامي
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2016, 05:01:40 AM »
Asalamualaikum.

Is the following narration authentic?

Abdulla Ibn Al-Mubarak was asked:

Which of them is better, Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan رضي الله عنه or Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz?.

He said: 'By Allah, the dust that has entered the nose of Muawiya with the Messenger of Allah is better than Umar one thousand times. Muawiya prayed behind the Messenger of Allah (saw) . When he (SAW) said: Samia Allahu leman hamida (Allah listens to one who praises him i.e when rising from Ruku) Muawiya said: Rabana wa laka Al-Hamd (Our Lord to you is the praise). What do you want more than this?'

Source: Wafiyat al Ayan by Ibn Khalkan 3/33 & Kitab Al Shariyah by Ajiri 5/2466

The narration from Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak was mentioned in some books of Rijjal like Wafiyyat al-A'yaan and Mirkat al-Masabeeh 'ala Mishkat al-Masabeeh. Also, more than one scholar of Ahlus-Sunnah mentioned the dust of the nose of Mu'aawiyah or his nose is better than 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz or his work.

Shaikh-ul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said in Minhaaj al-Sunnah:

'That's why more than one of the pious salaf used to say that the dust that entered the nose of Mu'aawiyah with the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is better than the work of 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz.' اهـ.

Also, It was said that Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak was asked:

'Who's better, Mu'aawiyah or 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz? He said that the dust that entered the nose of Mu'aawiyah's horse is better than the likes of 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz.' اهـ.

A similar narration was mentioned in 'al-Sawaa'iq al Muhriqqa' by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami.

A really important thing you should know is this, Ahlus-Sunnah don't take their beliefs from any book except for the Qur'an and the authentic Sunnah, we also stick by the sayings of the scholars of Islam if it goes with the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

We are not forced to believe that the dust of Mu'aawiyah's nose or his horse's nose is better than 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz or his work, but it was said by some of the pious salaf and is said to be said by Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak.


والله أعلم
May Allah guide the Shi'a to the truth. Ameen.

Student of Comparative Religion - Refuter of allegations made against Islam by Christians and Atheists.

Imam Ali

Re: Comparison between Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan and Umar Ibn Abdul Az
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2016, 06:51:03 PM »
Asalamualaikum.

Is the following narration authentic?

Abdulla Ibn Al-Mubarak was asked:

Which of them is better, Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan رضي الله عنه or Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz?.

He said: 'By Allah, the dust that has entered the nose of Muawiya with the Messenger of Allah is better than Umar one thousand times. Muawiya prayed behind the Messenger of Allah (saw) . When he (SAW) said: Samia Allahu leman hamida (Allah listens to one who praises him i.e when rising from Ruku) Muawiya said: Rabana wa laka Al-Hamd (Our Lord to you is the praise). What do you want more than this?'

Source: Wafiyat al Ayan by Ibn Khalkan 3/33 & Kitab Al Shariyah by Ajiri 5/2466

The narration from Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak was mentioned in some books of Rijjal like Wafiyyat al-A'yaan and Mirkat al-Masabeeh 'ala Mishkat al-Masabeeh. Also, more than one scholar of Ahlus-Sunnah mentioned the dust of the nose of Mu'aawiyah or his nose is better than 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz or his work.

Shaikh-ul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said in Minhaaj al-Sunnah:

'That's why more than one of the pious salaf used to say that the dust that entered the nose of Mu'aawiyah with the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is better than the work of 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz.' اهـ.

Also, It was said that Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak was asked:

'Who's better, Mu'aawiyah or 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz? He said that the dust that entered the nose of Mu'aawiyah's horse is better than the likes of 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz.' اهـ.

A similar narration was mentioned in 'al-Sawaa'iq al Muhriqqa' by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami.

A really important thing you should know is this, Ahlus-Sunnah don't take their beliefs from any book except for the Qur'an and the authentic Sunnah, we also stick by the sayings of the scholars of Islam if it goes with the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

We are not forced to believe that the dust of Mu'aawiyah's nose or his horse's nose is better than 'Umar ibn Abdulaziz or his work, but it was said by some of the pious salaf and is said to be said by Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak.


والله أعلم

Makes sense since he was a companion, and Umar ibn Abdul Aziz wasn't it.

Can, anyone comment on it's authenticity?

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
45 Replies
8271 Views
Last post January 06, 2015, 05:05:42 AM
by Ebn Hussein
3 Replies
508 Views
Last post July 13, 2015, 03:49:49 PM
by zaid_ibn_ali
4 Replies
683 Views
Last post September 21, 2015, 10:03:32 PM
by Imam Ali
1 Replies
496 Views
Last post November 12, 2015, 01:11:36 AM
by Hani