TwelverShia.net Forum

Is Sahifah Hammam Ibn Munabbih correctly attributed to this Imam?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

as300

Assalam alaikoum

I found this article on the internet

Abū Hurairah: According to the Scottish ḥadīṯ-specialist James Robson, Abū Hurairah “is said to have died in 57, 58, or 59; but if it is true that he prayed at ʿĀʾisha’s funeral in 58, the date must be 58/678, or 59. He was 78 years old.”[27] Hence, it would seem that Abū Hurairah was probably born around 600 and died in approximately 678, at the age of 78.

Hammām ibn Munabbih: According to the German ʿarabicist and islāmologist Raif Khoury, Wahb ibn Munabbih (the brother of Hammām) “was of Persian origin, having been born at Dhimar, two days’ march from Ṣanʿāʾ in the year 34/654-5. […] He lived with his five brothers at Ṣanʿāʾ, and Hammām was the eldest of them. The most reasonable date for the brother’s death seems to be 101 or 102/719-20, and the least probable is 132, when compared with that of Wahb.”[28] Hence, it would seem that Hammām was born prior to 655 and died around 720, in excess of the age of 75.

Maʿmar ibn Rās̠id: According to the American ʿarabicist Michael Fishbein: “Abū ʿUrwah Maʿmar b. Rāshid, born in 96/714 and died in 154/770, a pupil of al-Zuhrī, was a historian and traditionist.”[29] Hence, it would seem that Maʿmar was born in 714 and died in 770, at the age of 56.

ʿAbd ar-Razzāq: According to the German ʿarabicist, islāmologist, and ḥadīṯ-expert Harald Motzki, ʿAbd ar-Razzāq was a “Yemeni scholar, b. 126/744, d. in the middle of Shawwāl 211/middle of January 827.”[30] Hence, it would seem that ʿAbd ar-Razzāq was born in 744 and died in 827, at the age of 83.

Based upon this biographical data, the following approximate chronology emerges for the isnād of the Ṣaḥīfat Hammām:

   ø  Abū Hurairah (600-678)
ø  Hammām (pre-655-720)
ø  Maʿmar (714-770)
ø  ʿAbd ar-Razzāq (744-827)

The problem with this isnād arises from the claim that Hammām transmitted his ṣaḥīfah to Maʿmar, who was only five or six years old at the time of Hammām’s death around 720. Even if the legends of infant children memorising ḥadīṯs are given any merit, this chronological problem cannot be ignored, given that the Mediæval biographical literature also reports that Maʿmar only began to research and collect ḥadīṯs during the same year that the famous preacher Al-Ḥasan al-Baṣrī died: 728, nearly a decade after the death of Hammām.[31]


However, some sources also report a much later date for the death of Hammām, in 749 or 750[32][33] (perhaps in an effort to ameliorate this incongruity). Given that Hammām was the elder brother of Wahb (who was born in 655), Hammām must have been more than 95 years old by 750, which seems unlikely; as Juynboll puts it:

“If Hammām’s late year of death is taken literally, creating every opportunity for Maʿmar to have heard him personally, and if it is at the same time maintained that he was a transmitter of Abū Hurayra, he must have reached an age which requires an act of faith to accept.”[34]

Furthermore, Hammām is suspiciously not mentioned as a muʿammar (‘exceptionally long-lived person’) in the biographical dictionary of Muḥammad ibn ʿUṯmān aḏ-Ḏahabī (d. 1353),[35] in whose work “virtually all centenarians from ancient times until his own day are mentioned.”[36] Moreover, this 750 death-date for Hammām is further contradicted by the report that Hammām died before his younger brother Wahb (who died in 728 or 732),[37][38] which would have been impossible if Hammām had in fact died two decades later. Hence: given the birth of Hammām prior to the 655 birth of his younger brother Wahb, Hammām’s absence from Ḏahabī’s list of muʿammars, and Hammām’s death prior to the 728 or 732 expiration of his brother Wahb, it seems evident that 720 (and not 750) was Hammām’s actual death-date; to reiterate the conclusion drawn by Khoury, “the most reasonable date” for Hammām’s death “seems to be 719-720.”[39] Although more tentative in regards to the true death-date of Hammām,[40] Juynboll concluded: “In short, no date seems to work, when the historicity—if any—of this strand is evaluated.”[41] Concerning the isnād in general, Juynboll further concluded: “The whole corpus is supported by a supposedly very early but probably historically untenable isnād strand.”[42]


My questions are quite simple:
Birth and Death Date of these Imams, especially Hammam Ibn Munabbih?

Djazakumullahu khayran

Farid

Re: Is Sahifah Hammam Ibn Munabbih correctly attributed to this Imam?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2015, 01:34:43 AM »
Wa alaykum alsalam wa rahmatullah,

Welcome to the boards akhi. It has been a long time.

The problem with the kuffar is that they believe that the can teach us our religion because they are "objective" and we are "emotional". Let us examine the evidences.

They said that Hammam died in the year 100. Where is the proof of this?

Ibn Sa'ad, Ali bin Al-Madeeni (from a source that knew Hammam), Khaleefa bin Khayyat, and Ibn Hibban all said he died in either 132 or 133. Al-Bukhari put Hammam under the chapter: Died between 130 and 140.

There is an agreement amongst early sources that he died in this time.

Al-Bukhari also adds that Sufyan bin Uyayna said: I waited for ten years for Hammam to come.

Sufyan was born in the year 107. It makes no sense that he would say such words of Hammam died seven years before he was even born. As you are aware, scholars brought news of death of other scholars from city to city. It is impossible for Sufyan to not know of Hammam's death for decades upon decades.

Farid

Re: Is Sahifah Hammam Ibn Munabbih correctly attributed to this Imam?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2015, 01:46:39 AM »
Ahmad bin Hanbal also quotes from Ghawth bin Jabir bin Ghaylan bin Munabih, that his grandfather Ghaylan was the youngest of four brothers and that Hammam was the last to die.

In Tahtheeb Al Kamal, Al Waqidi, Abdul Mun'im bin Idrees, Ibm Sa'ad, Khaleefa bin Khayat, Abu Ubaid, Falah bin Ataa', Abdul Samad bin Mi'qil, Hammam bin Nafi', Mu'awiyah bin Salih, and Yunus bin Abdul Samad from his teachers, that Wahb died in the year 110 or 113 or 114.

Instead of quoting more kuffar, they should provide evidences from contemporaries of Hammam as I have done here.

May Allah curse those that wish to put out His light.

as300

Re: Is Sahifah Hammam Ibn Munabbih correctly attributed to this Imam?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2015, 09:16:19 AM »
Wa alaikoum assalam wa rahmatullahi

Amine, but they're already cursed by Allah ^^

I see

However, I read that Ibn Saad said that he died before Imam Wahb ibn Munabbih in 122
همام بن منبه من الأبناء وكان أكبر من أخيه وهب بن منبه ولقي أبا هريرة وروى عنه رواية كثيرة وتوفي قبل وهب مات سنة إحدى أو اثنتين ومائة وكان يكنى أبا عقبة

As you probably understood, I'm only discussing Hammam ibn Munabbih's deathdate and Maamar Ibn Rashid's birthdate.
Even the shaykh who studied the Sahifah said that he died in 101-102. But I didn't find any source for that.

The point of the article is: if Imam Hammam died in 101-102 and that Maamar was born in 95, it means that he studied before 6 which is problematic. Muhammad Hamidullah said that he was born in 85 (again he did not cite any reference).
However, if Hammam died between 120 and 132, everything is solved.

Farid

Re: Is Sahifah Hammam Ibn Munabbih correctly attributed to this Imam?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2015, 10:47:12 AM »
These strange opinions have no weight. I have provided the opinions of the earliest Imams. Nobody else matters.

The kufar will try to take as many Shaath opinions as they can. They will abuse every typo and mistake. This is their goal.

as300

Re: Is Sahifah Hammam Ibn Munabbih correctly attributed to this Imam?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2015, 04:56:59 PM »
I know, brother

Bârakallâhu fîk

Wassalâm alaikum

Ibn Yahya

Re: Is Sahifah Hammam Ibn Munabbih correctly attributed to this Imam?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2015, 05:53:20 AM »
No wonder almost all Hadith Rejecters are misguided reverts

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
2913 Views
Last post September 16, 2014, 09:34:51 PM
by Hani
1 Replies
908 Views
Last post April 03, 2019, 01:31:16 AM
by Qamar Farooq
0 Replies
1774 Views
Last post December 30, 2019, 11:34:56 PM
by Brother
0 Replies
917 Views
Last post July 12, 2020, 11:52:45 AM
by Noor-us-Sunnah