is there any jarh of Sunni Muhadeeten on Kulayni?

[Ahlus_sunnah]

shias says that Kulayni is a thiqa or "thiqatul islam" in the view of sunni muhadeeten also,so i wanna know that is there any jarh of sunni muhadeeten about Kulayni?

[Khaled]

One reason I have read is that the al-Kulayni that we know today is not the same Kulayni that would've written al-Kafi.  I used to be extremely surprised that al-Imam ad-Dhahabi wrote good things about him in his "Siyar"; how can such a staunch Sunni not write a scathing biography of al-Kulayin?  Another thing that is puzzling is why didn't Shaykh al-Islam reference al-Kafi or the other major works of the Shi'a in his refutation of them?

One possible answer is that al-Kafi is nothing like it was (if it even existed) when al-Kulayni wrote it.  Other than the points I have mentioned, some students of knowledge have challenged the Shia to find one Shi'i author who quotes from al-Kafi before the year 700H.  The opinion I lean towards today is that this book (along with all the major 12er books) were changed during the Safavid era.  والله اعلم

[matpau_83]

May i know the reference in siyar which he said 'nice' thing about kulayni? also did imam dhahabi mentioned him in mizanul iktidal?

[Husayn]

الكليني

شيخ الشيعة ، وعالم الإمامية ، صاحب التصانيف أبو جعفر محمد بن يعقوب الرازي الكليني -بنون .

روى عنه : أحمد بن إبراهيم الصيمري ، وغيره ، وكان ببغداد ، وبها توفي ، وقبره مشهور .

مات سنة ثمان وعشرين وثلاثمائة وهو بضم الكاف ، وإمالة اللام ، قيده الأمين .

http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=3162&idto=3162&bk_no=60&ID=3018

[Husayn]

Mentions nothing of al-Kafi or any of his books.

Reading this, you'd think he's just some nobody.

[matpau_83]

is this what imam Dhahabi said about him entirely? i dont know which part where he talk nice thing about him.

[Husayn]

Well, he doesn't talk bad about him, and calls him "Sheikh of the Shi'a" and "Scholar of the Imamiyah".

I think it's a neutral opinion tbh.

[matpau_83]

Well, he doesn't talk bad about him, and calls him "Sheikh of the Shi'a" and "Scholar of the Imamiyah".

I think it's a neutral opinion tbh.

true, its very generic. There's no indication implicitly whatsoever that Imam Dhahabi consider him to be a thiqa by sunni standards.

[Farid]

Al Kulayni's book and other early Shia books seemed to be inaccessible to Al Thahabi.

It almost seems that these narrations were kept hidden away by this "secret sect" until they started to have power.

As brother Khaled said, even Ibn Taymiyyah never quoted from Al Kafi. Yet, I disagree with the conclusion that it may have been a different book only because the earliest manuscript is four hundred years younger than the author.

A logical reason as to why Sunnis didn't accuse Al Kulayni of lying is because they were not sure if he ever lied. Sure, the Shia hadith library is full of fabrications, but maybe it was from the Kufans who were "students" of the Imams, or maybe the Qummis, or maybe the authors of the early books. Without proper evidence, one cannot accuse another of lying.

[Khaled]

Al Kulayni's book and other early Shia books seemed to be inaccessible to Al Thahabi.

It almost seems that these narrations were kept hidden away by this "secret sect" until they started to have power.

As brother Khaled said, even Ibn Taymiyyah never quoted from Al Kafi. Yet, I disagree with the conclusion that it may have been a different book only because the earliest manuscript is four hundred years younger than the author.

A logical reason as to why Sunnis didn't accuse Al Kulayni of lying is because they were not sure if he ever lied. Sure, the Shia hadith library is full of fabrications, but maybe it was from the Kufans who were "students" of the Imams, or maybe the Qummis, or maybe the authors of the early books. Without proper evidence, one cannot accuse another of lying.

بارك الله فيك, however, according to limited knowledge, the first reference to the book is 400 years after the author and the earlier manuscripts are from 700 years after the author.

Also, my point is that Shaykh al-Islam and ad-Dhahabi رحمهما الله would've refuted, or at least referenced al-Kafi had it existed in their time, not necessarily accused him of lying. 

[Ahlus_sunnah]

its the words of imam dhahabi:

 تاريخ الإسلام للذهبي الجزء الرابع والعشرون الصفحة 250
وكان منقطعاً إلى الله، مقبلاً على شأنه مجتهداً في العبادة حسن الاستنباط. توفي في جمادى الأولى. محمد بن يعقوب. أبو جعفر الكليني الرازي. شيخ فاضل شهير، من رؤوس الشيعة وفقهائهم المصنفين في مذاهبهم الرذلة. روى عنه: أحمد بن إبراهيم الصيمري، وغيره. وكان ببغداد وبها مات. وقبره ظاهر عليه لوح. والكليني: بضم الكاف وإمالة اللام والياء ثم بنون. قيده الأمير. موسى بن جعفر بن قرين. أبو الحسن العثماني الكوفي. عن: محمد بن عبد الملك الدقيقي، والربيع بن سليمان، وابن حبان المدائني، وطبقتهم بالعراق، والشام، والجزيرة، ومصر. وعنه: أبو بكر الأبهري، والدارقطني، وجماعة. وثقه الخطيب وقال: جاوز ثمانين سنة.

did imam khatib said he is thiqa?

so its the words of imam ibn Asir:

أبو هريرة - رضي الله عنه - أَنَّ رسولَ الله -صلى الله عليه وسلم- قال: إِنَّ الله يبعث لهذه الأمة على رأس كل مائة سنة من يُجَدِّد لها دينها

after this hadeeth he says:

وأما من كان على رأس المائة الثالثة... وأبو جعفر محمد بن يعقوب الرازي من الإمامية

ibn Asir,Jami As Usul v 11 p 329


so,we dont have any jarh about him?

[Al-Hassan]

بارك الله فيك, however, according to limited knowledge, the first reference to the book is 400 years after the author and the earlier manuscripts are from 700 years after the author.

Also, my point is that Shaykh al-Islam and ad-Dhahabi رحمهما الله would've refuted, or at least referenced al-Kafi had it existed in their time, not necessarily accused him of lying.

One possible answer is that al-Kafi is nothing like it was (if it even existed) when al-Kulayni wrote it.  Other than the points I have mentioned, some students of knowledge have challenged the Shia to find one Shi'i author who quotes from al-Kafi before the year 700H.  The opinion I lean towards today is that this book (along with all the major 12er books) were changed during the Safavid era.  والله اعلم

That is clearly not correct. Al-Kafi was accessed and mentioned by the early Imami scholars and was famous during their time. For example:

Shaykh Al-Najashi(d. 450 AH): "Muhammed bin Ya'qoob bin Ishaq Abu Ja'far Al-Kulayni- His maternal uncle was 'Ilan Al-Kulayni Al-Razi('Ali bin Muhamed bin Ibrahim bin Aban Al-Razi Al-Kulayni), who was the Shaykh of our companions during his time in Ray and their representative. And he(Muhammed bin Ya'qoob) was the most reliable of the people in Hadith. He compiled the major encyclopedia that is called "Al-Kafi" within 20 years. [Rijal Al-Najashi page 377]
قال الشيخ النجاشي: "محمد بن يعقوب بن إسحاق أبوجعفر الكليني، وكان خاله علان الكليني الرازي، شيخ أصحابنا في وقته بالري ووجههم، وكان أوثق الناس في الحديث، وأثبتهم، صنف الكتاب الكبير المعروف بالكليني يسمى الكافي في عشرين سنة". (رجال النجاشي ص377)


Shaykh Al-Tusi(d. 460 AH): "Muhammed bin Ya'qoob Al-Kulayni, with a Kunya of Abu Ja'far. Thiqah and is knowledgable in the Akhbar. He has books and among them is Kitab Al-Kafi which is composed of 30 books. [Al-Fihirst page 161]
وقال الشيخ الطوسي: "محمد بن يعقوب الكليني يكنى أبا جعفر، ثقة، عارف بالاخبار، له كتب، منها كتاب الكافي وهو يشتمل على ثلاثين كتابا". (الفهرست ص161).


Shaykh Al-Mufeed(d. 413 AH): "And it has been mentioned of Muhammed bin Ya'qoob Al-Kulayni Rahimahullah on his Kitab Al-Kafi and it is among the best books of the Shi'a with the most benefit"[Tashih Al-I'tiqadat page 70]
و قال الشيخ المفيد: "وقد ذكر الكليني رحمه الله في كتاب الكافي وهو من أجل كتب الشيعة وأكثرها فائدة.." (تصحيح الاعتقادات ص70)

As for it being changing supposedly during the times of the Safavid era or during any period earlier or after that, had that been the case, then we would not have it's original Nusakh dating much earlier than the Safavid era being all consistent with each other without significant deviations as we have them now. The fact of the matter is, all the pre-Safavid Nusakh of Al-Kafi that we have today are all consistent with each other, hence the chances that it was changed is highly unlikely. Otherwise, we would be seeing Nusakh conflicting with each other but we have none today that do.

Also, the fact that Al-Mufid, Najashi and Tusi praised Kulayni and his Al-Kafi shows that it was a famous book among the Immamiya as early as their time. Meaning it was famous in not only Ray and Qum, but in Baghdad and Kufa as well since this was the period where the Kufans and the Qummis started to merge together and Mufid and Tusi residing in Baghdad. This shows that as early as that time, all the versions of Al-Kafi in those different places were all consistent with each other and had there been different versions emerging in those different places due to Tahrif, then it would not have reached such popularity among them.

[Farid]

its the words of imam dhahabi:

 تاريخ الإسلام للذهبي الجزء الرابع والعشرون الصفحة 250
وكان منقطعاً إلى الله، مقبلاً على شأنه مجتهداً في العبادة حسن الاستنباط. توفي في جمادى الأولى. محمد بن يعقوب. أبو جعفر الكليني الرازي. شيخ فاضل شهير، من رؤوس الشيعة وفقهائهم المصنفين في مذاهبهم الرذلة. روى عنه: أحمد بن إبراهيم الصيمري، وغيره. وكان ببغداد وبها مات. وقبره ظاهر عليه لوح. والكليني: بضم الكاف وإمالة اللام والياء ثم بنون. قيده الأمير. موسى بن جعفر بن قرين. أبو الحسن العثماني الكوفي. عن: محمد بن عبد الملك الدقيقي، والربيع بن سليمان، وابن حبان المدائني، وطبقتهم بالعراق، والشام، والجزيرة، ومصر. وعنه: أبو بكر الأبهري، والدارقطني، وجماعة. وثقه الخطيب وقال: جاوز ثمانين سنة.

did imam khatib said he is thiqa?

so its the words of imam ibn Asir:

أبو هريرة - رضي الله عنه - أَنَّ رسولَ الله -صلى الله عليه وسلم- قال: إِنَّ الله يبعث لهذه الأمة على رأس كل مائة سنة من يُجَدِّد لها دينها

after this hadeeth he says:

وأما من كان على رأس المائة الثالثة... وأبو جعفر محمد بن يعقوب الرازي من الإمامية

ibn Asir,Jami As Usul v 11 p 329


so,we dont have any jarh about him?

Akhi, the first tawtheeq you quoted from Al Thahabi from Al Khateeb was for the biography after Al Kulaini. Notice that this is under to bio of Musa bin Jaafar.

As for Ibn Al Atheer from Jami' Al Usool, it is him mentioning the top people from each group. For example, he mentions the top Qari', the top muhadith, the top jurist, and the top Imami. The top Imami is Al Kulaini.

[Farid]

@ brother Khaled, there are two manuscripts from Al Kafi from the seventh century. One is from Maktabat Al Nuwaab and the other is from Maktabat Al Shura.

[Hani]

Bro, Ibn Taymiyyah never used al-Kafi simply because either he had no access to it in Shaam, or because it wasn't his style, meaning that Shiite polemical works don't quote their own narrations, they're usually a mix of Sunni Hadith and intellectual arguments, al-Helli himself doesn't seem to quote his own books much.

[Hani]

How often do you see me quote al-Kafi? It's a very rare occurrence simply because I don't see that Shia books have any weight, I don't include them as part of the equation.

[Farid]

 Ibn Taymiyyah uses the books of opponents. He most likely had no access.

[Ahlus_sunnah]

its the words of imam dhahabi:

 تاريخ الإسلام للذهبي الجزء الرابع والعشرون الصفحة 250
وكان منقطعاً إلى الله، مقبلاً على شأنه مجتهداً في العبادة حسن الاستنباط. توفي في جمادى الأولى. محمد بن يعقوب. أبو جعفر الكليني الرازي. شيخ فاضل شهير، من رؤوس الشيعة وفقهائهم المصنفين في مذاهبهم الرذلة. روى عنه: أحمد بن إبراهيم الصيمري، وغيره. وكان ببغداد وبها مات. وقبره ظاهر عليه لوح. والكليني: بضم الكاف وإمالة اللام والياء ثم بنون. قيده الأمير. موسى بن جعفر بن قرين. أبو الحسن العثماني الكوفي. عن: محمد بن عبد الملك الدقيقي، والربيع بن سليمان، وابن حبان المدائني، وطبقتهم بالعراق، والشام، والجزيرة، ومصر. وعنه: أبو بكر الأبهري، والدارقطني، وجماعة. وثقه الخطيب وقال: جاوز ثمانين سنة.

did imam khatib said he is thiqa?

so its the words of imam ibn Asir:

أبو هريرة - رضي الله عنه - أَنَّ رسولَ الله -صلى الله عليه وسلم- قال: إِنَّ الله يبعث لهذه الأمة على رأس كل مائة سنة من يُجَدِّد لها دينها

after this hadeeth he says:

وأما من كان على رأس المائة الثالثة... وأبو جعفر محمد بن يعقوب الرازي من الإمامية

ibn Asir,Jami As Usul v 11 p 329


so,we dont have any jarh about him?

Akhi, the first tawtheeq you quoted from Al Thahabi from Al Khateeb was for the biography after Al Kulaini. Notice that this is under to bio of Musa bin Jaafar.

As for Ibn Al Atheer from Jami' Al Usool, it is him mentioning the top people from each group. For example, he mentions the top Qari', the top muhadith, the top jurist, and the top Imami. The top Imami is Al Kulaini.

brother Farid,is there any muhadeeten from ahlus sunnah who has jarh on kulayni?

[Hani]

Ibn `Asakir has written interesting things in his bio, he even narrated a Hadith from him (whose chain should be checked):

 7126
محمد بن يعقوب ويقال محمد بن علي أبو جعفر الكليني ( 4 ) من شيوخ الرافضة قدم دمشق وحدث ببعلبك عن أبي الحسين محمد بن علي الجعفري السمرقندي ومحمد بن أحمد الخفاف النيسابوري علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم روى عنه أبو سعد الكوفي شيخ الشريف المرتضى أبي القاسم علي بن الحسين بن موسى الموسوي وأبو عبد الله أحمد بن إبراهيم ( 5 ) وأبو القاسم علي بن محمد بن عبدوس الكوفي وعبد الله بن محمد بن ذكوان ( 6 ) أنبأنا أبو الحسن ( 7 ) بن جعفر قالا أنا جعفر بن أحمد بن الحسين بن السراج أنا أبو القاسم المحسن بن حمزة ( 8 ) الوراق بتنيس نا أبو علي الحسن بن علي بن جعفر الديبلي بتنيس في المحرم سنة خمس وتسعين وثلاثمائة نا أبو القاسم علي بن محمد بن عبدوس الكوفي أخبرني محمد بن يعقوب الكليني عن علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم عن موسى بن إبراهيم المحاربي عن الحسن بن موسى عن موسى بن عبد الله عن جعفر ابن محمد قال قال أمير المؤمنين إعجاب المرء بنفسه دليل على ضعف عقله أخبرنا أبو محمد بن حمزة بقراءتي عليه عن أبي زكريا عبد الرحيم بن أحمد ح وأخبرنا أبو القاسم بن السوسي أنا أبو إسحاق إبراهيم بن يونس أنا أبو زكريا وأخبرنا أبو الحسين أحمد بن سلامة بن يحيى أنا سهل بن بشر أنا رشأ بن نظيف قالا نا عبد الغني بن سعيد قال فأما الكليني بضم الكاف والنون بعد الياء فمحمد بن يعقوب الكليني من الشيعة المصنفين مصنف على مذاهب أهل البيت قرأت على أبي محمد بن حمزة عن أبي نصر بن ماكولا قال ( 1 ) وأما الكليني بضم الكاف وإمالة اللام وقبل الياء نون فهو أبو جعفر محمد بن يعقوب الكليني الرازي من فقهاء الشيعة المصنفين في مذهبهم روى عنه أبو عبد الله أحمد ابن إبراهيم الصيمري وغيره وكان ينزل بباب الكوفة في درب السلسلة ببغداد وتوفي فيها سنة ثمان وعشرين وثلاثمائة ودفن بباب الكوفة في مقبرتها قال الأمير بن ماكولا ورأيت أنا قبره بالقرب من صراة الطائي عليه لوح مكتوب فيه هذا قبر محمد بن يعقوب الرازي الكليني الفقيه

Actually it seems Ibn `Asakir narrated with his own chain up to al-Kafi, he writes:

[We were told by abu al-Hasan bin Ja`far, we were told by Ja`far bin Ahmad bin Husayn al-Sarraj, we were told by abu al-Qasim al-Muhassin bin Hamzah al-Warraq in Tanis, we were told by abu `Ali al-Hasan bin `Ali bin Ja`far al-Daybali in Tanis during Muharram in 395 AH, we were told by abu al-Qasim `Ali bin Muhammad bin `Abdous al-Kafi, I was told by Muhammad bin Ya`qoub al-Kulayni, from `Ali bin Ibrahim bin Hashim, from Musa bin Ibrahim al-Mouharibi, from Hasan bin Musa, from Musa bin `Abdullah, from Ja`far bin Muhammad, he said: Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen said: "A man's love for himself is proof of the weakness of his intellect."]

This is in al-Kafi on 1/27:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ هَاشِمٍ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْمُحَارِبِيِّ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُوسَى عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ مَيْمُونِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ قَالَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ( عليه السلام ) إِعْجَابُ الْمَرْءِ بِنَفْسِهِ دَلِيلٌ عَلَى ضَعْفِ عَقْلِهِ

[`Ali bin Ibrahim bin Hashim, from Musa bin Ibrahim al-Mouharibi, from al-Hasan bin Musa, from Musa bin `Abdullah, from Maymoun bin `Ali, from abi `Abdillah (as): Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen (as) said: "A man's love for himself is proof of the weakness of his intellect."]

Seems like a legit attribution to al-Kafi, a small mistake occurred I suppose because Maymoun was dropped from Ibn `Asakir's chain but that's probably due to the long chain he used to al-Kafi.

Here's what al-Dhahabi says in his Tareekh:

محمد بن يعقوب. أبو جعفر الكليني الرازي. شيخ فاضل شهير، من رؤوس الشيعة وفقهائهم المصنفين في مذاهبهم الرذلة. روى عنه: أحمد بن إبراهيم الصيمري، وغيره. وكان ببغداد وبها مات. وقبره ظاهر عليه لوح. والكليني: بضم الكاف وإمالة اللام والياء ثم بنون. قيده الأمير.

[Muhammad ibn Ya`qoub, abu Ja`far al-Kulayni al-Razi. Virtuous, popular Shaykh from the heads of the Shi`ah and their jurists, an author of their filthy Madhahib etc...]

[Farid]

brother Farid,is there any muhadeeten from ahlus sunnah who has jarh on kulayni?

The only jarh is the above stuff like: shaikh al rafidha.

This is without a doubt a form of weakening. However, we don't find anyone criticising his hadiths.