Kamal Hydari Ziyaarah Ashura Not Authentic

[Rationalist]

If someone can translate this and reuploaded it, it would be nice.

[Farid]

This is a powerful video in which he accuses all the narrations that criticize Sahaba openly as fabrications, since the Imam told him companions not to criticize openly because it will lead to harm.

However, there are authentic narrations in which the Sahaba are criticized openly, so what does this mean? In the view of Kamal, these are fabrications, regardless of the authenticity of the chains, for ninth and tenth century scholars tampered with the text.

If that is the case, what evidence does one have that the rest of the text haven't been tampered with? Maybe, even the narration prohibiting cursing enemies has been tampered with.

[Hani]

Their books are terrible indeed, small in number, tampered with, corrupt chains of transmission, suspicions over their attributions to their authors etc...

For the love of God, why would anyone adopt this Madhab!? This is like seeing two shirts, one is dirty and ripped and one is white and clean, yet they insist on wearing the bad one.

[Furkan]

They hope one day Dreft will show up.

[Rationalist]

Their books are terrible indeed, small in number, tampered with, corrupt chains of transmission, suspicions over their attributions to their authors etc...

For the love of God, why would anyone adopt this Madhab!? This is like seeing two shirts, one is dirty and ripped and one is white and clean, yet they insist on wearing the bad one.

The reason is for dawah purposes the 12ers really don't present their true teachings. Instead they present the layman other issues such as the sahaba differences and force the layman to take side, and if he  or she doesn't, they try to tell them they are among the Nawasib.

I recall this 12er was asking me which school of fiqh I followed. Then when I said Imam Shafi he was like did you know Imam Shafi allowed fathers to marry their daughters if the child is born out of wedlock.? I knew this was a false accusation, just like Hanafis allowing wine. Anyway, when I questioned him about kalam issues, he didn't want to debate about that.

[MuslimAnswers]

Then when I said Imam Shafi he was like did you know Imam Shafi allowed fathers to marry their daughters if the child is born out of wedlock.?

There is definitely some reason other than this "shock and awe" technique (such as, not accepting that biological paternity necessarily determines, as per formal Islam, paternity and what is derived from it, precisely in the cases of Zina).

Actually, this is interesting coming from the Twelvers, what with all their analogies between the relationship of their Imams and the Prophet (SAW) with that of 'Isa (AS) being the son of Maryam (AS).

[Nader Zaveri]

Salaamun `Alaykum All,

The title of this thread is a little bit off, Kamaal al-Haydari doesn't believe that Ziyarah `Aashurah is not authentic, rather he says it is authentic. Instead, he believes the phrase that condemns/curses the first three caliphs is not authentic.

Anyone who abides by strict Rijaali standards would deem Ziyaarah `Aashurah to be weak.

[Rationalist]

There are different versions ? I thought there was only one, and the fact that it curses the 1,2 and 3 makes it very popular among the 12ers.

Also what about this taqiyyah of Shaykh Tusi in his book ?

Shaykh Tusi in his book Al-Istibsar (the fourth important book of Shi'a Islamic Hadith) has said that the first means the son of Adam who murdered his pious brother. the second is Qeydar who hamstrung and murdered the Camel of God and the 3th is who murdered prophet Yahya Ibn Zakariya a.s. (John the Baptist who is mentioned in different verses of Quran like 6:85 and 19:12) and the 4th is Ibn Muljam who murdered Imam Ali a.s. while Imam was at prayer (Ibn Muljam is called the most wretched human in different Ahadeeth). but this opinion of Shaykh Tusi and not narrated as a hadith.