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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Hadith-Rijal => Topic started by: fgss on July 08, 2016, 01:59:28 PM

Title: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: fgss on July 08, 2016, 01:59:28 PM
Assalam O Alaikum,

I am sure there must be a response on all the objections raised by shias on some narrations of Sahih Bukhari.

plz share with me pdf file of such response, if you have that.


Jazak Allah.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Farid on July 08, 2016, 02:41:52 PM
Wa alaykum alsalam wa rahmatullah,

I am not aware of anything like that akhi.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: taha taha on July 08, 2016, 02:53:18 PM
they reject the quran that we have and the sahabah we have.
so they are going to reject the sunnah books as well.
even a lot of deviated groups reject the sunnah books
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on July 10, 2016, 12:47:18 AM
Assalam O Alaikum,

I am sure there must be a response on all the objections raised by shias on some narrations of Sahih Bukhari.

plz share with me pdf file of such response, if you have that.


Jazak Allah.

Alhamdulillah Ahlus-Sunnah have answers for every single misconception about Islam or allegation made against it, send us all your allegations made against Sahih al-Bukhari privately and we'll help refute them insha'Allah.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 08:07:32 PM
The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We do not believe in a limb-chopping, eye-gouging Prophet.

Narrated Anas:
The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron.
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 76, Hadith 9

Perhaps this is what ISIS and Taliban use to justify their violent behavior.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 13, 2016, 08:33:18 PM
Quote
إِنَّمَا جَزَاءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَسَادًا أَن يُقَتَّلُوا أَوْ يُصَلَّبُوا أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلَافٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَلَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ
Sahih International
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

Go ahead, mock this and show us your true colors towards Islam.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 09:41:25 PM
Quote
إِنَّمَا جَزَاءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَسَادًا أَن يُقَتَّلُوا أَوْ يُصَلَّبُوا أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلَافٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَلَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ
Sahih International
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

Go ahead, mock this and show us your true colors towards Islam.

errr, were those people causing corruption? Also opposite hands and feet and all limbs are different. What about eyes & iron-branding them?

Your true colors are that you would rather protect the sanctity of Bukhari than the Prophet.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 13, 2016, 10:10:28 PM
Quote
were those people causing corruption?

Would you mind classifying this behaviour then?
Quote
Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels.

Quote
Also opposite hands and feet and all limbs are different.
You are clutching at straws now, where does it say limbs? Where does it say all?

Quote
What about eyes & iron-branding them?
Sure, just change your statement "The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We do not believe in a limb-chopping, eye-gouging Prophet." to "The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We believe in a limb-chopping but not in an eye-gouging Prophet." and you will be taken more seriously.



Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 12:04:55 AM
Quote
were those people causing corruption?

Would you mind classifying this behaviour then?
Quote
Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels.

Quote
Also opposite hands and feet and all limbs are different.
You are clutching at straws now, where does it say limbs? Where does it say all?

Quote
What about eyes & iron-branding them?
Sure, just change your statement "The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We do not believe in a limb-chopping, eye-gouging Prophet." to "The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We believe in a limb-chopping but not in an eye-gouging Prophet." and you will be taken more seriously.





There you go with your selective reading and reasoning. The words in the ayah "يُحَارِبُونَ" or yarhiboona refers to war. Were these people at war with Allah and the Prophet? Were they creating corruption as in fitna?

Sure they killed the shepherd - the punishment of which is death, not maiming and eye-gouging.

Looks like your disdain for the Prophet still continues...
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 12:28:35 AM
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 67, Hadith 6
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 14, 2016, 01:19:16 AM
You are evading my questions, were they causing corruption or not? Where does it say limbs? Where does it say all?

Quote
There you go with your selective reading and reasoning. The words in the ayah "يُحَارِبُونَ" or yarhiboona refers to war. Were these people at war with Allah and the Prophet? Were they creating corruption as in fitna?

Sure they killed the shepherd - the punishment of which is death, not maiming and eye-gouging.

Looks like your disdain for the Prophet still continues...

You are looking for a cop out, are you saying that in Jafari fiqh, that hands and feet are only cut off of warriors in a war? Al Kulayni mentions this incident, as a matter of fact the verse I quoted is according to the following narration in al Kafi actually revealed at this incident:

Quote
في الكافي محمد بن يحيى عن أحمد بن محمد عن محمد بن يحيى عن طلحة بن زيد قال، سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: كان أبى عليه السلام يقول، ان للحرب حكمين إذا كانت الحرب قائمة لم تضع أو زارها ولم يثخن أهلها فكل أسير أخذ في تلك الحال فان الامام فيه بالخيار ان شاء ضرب عنقه وان شاء قطع يده ورجله من خلاف بغير حسم، وتركه يتشخط في دمه حتى يموت، وهو قول الله تعالى: انما جزاء الدين يحاربون الله ورسوله ويسعون في الأرض فسادا ان يقتلوا أو يصلبوا أو تقطع أيديهم وأرجلهم من خلاف أو ينفوا من الأرض ذلك لهم خزى في الدنيا ولهم في الآخرة عذاب عظيم الا ترى ان المخير الذي خيره الله الامام على شئ واحد وهو الكفر وليس هو على أشياء مختلفة، فقلت لأبي عبد الله صلوات الله عليه: قول الله تعالى، (أو ينفوا من الأرض)؟ قال: ذلك لطلب ان تطلبه الخيل حتى يهرب فان أخذته الخيل حكم عليه ببعض الاحكام التي وصفت لك والحديث طويل أخذنا منه موضع الحاجة

(It  has  been  narrated) from  Abu  Abdullah asws having said: ‘A group of sick people from the Clan of Zabba came to Rasool-Allah saww. So Rasool-Allah saww said to them: ‘Encamp near me saww,  so  when  you  get  better  I saww shall  send  you  all  upon  your way’. So they said, ‘Get us out of Al-Medina’. So  he saww sent  them  (some)  camels  as  charity,  and  they  used  to drink  from  their urine  and  eat  from  their  milk.So  when  they  were  cured  and  became  strong,  they killed  three  people  who  were  looking  after  the  camels.  (The  news  of)  that  reached Rasool-Allah saww, so he saww sent Ali asws towards them, and they were found to be in a valley, wandering around, not being able to get out from it, somewhere near Yemen. So he asws captivated them and came with them to Rasool-Allah saww. Thus this Verse was  Revealed [5:33] But  rather,  the Recompense of  those  who  wage  war against  Allah  and  His Rasool and  strive  to  make  mischief  in  the  land  is  only this,  that  they  should  be  murdered  or  crucified  or  their  hands  and  their  feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world. Thus Rasool-Allah saww chose the cutting, so he saww had their hands and their feet cut off on opposite sides’

Prediction: You will continue to ignore my questions and focus on the eye gouging to save face, try it and see where that gets you.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 01:43:24 AM
You are evading my questions, were they causing corruption or not? Where does it say limbs? Where does it say all?

Quote
There you go with your selective reading and reasoning. The words in the ayah "يُحَارِبُونَ" or yarhiboona refers to war. Were these people at war with Allah and the Prophet? Were they creating corruption as in fitna?

Sure they killed the shepherd - the punishment of which is death, not maiming and eye-gouging.

Looks like your disdain for the Prophet still continues...

You are looking for a cop out, are you saying that in Jafari fiqh, that hands and feet are only cut off of warriors in a war? Al Kulayni mentions this incident, as a matter of fact the verse I quoted is according to the following narration in al Kafi actually revealed at this incident:

Quote
في الكافي محمد بن يحيى عن أحمد بن محمد عن محمد بن يحيى عن طلحة بن زيد قال، سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: كان أبى عليه السلام يقول، ان للحرب حكمين إذا كانت الحرب قائمة لم تضع أو زارها ولم يثخن أهلها فكل أسير أخذ في تلك الحال فان الامام فيه بالخيار ان شاء ضرب عنقه وان شاء قطع يده ورجله من خلاف بغير حسم، وتركه يتشخط في دمه حتى يموت، وهو قول الله تعالى: انما جزاء الدين يحاربون الله ورسوله ويسعون في الأرض فسادا ان يقتلوا أو يصلبوا أو تقطع أيديهم وأرجلهم من خلاف أو ينفوا من الأرض ذلك لهم خزى في الدنيا ولهم في الآخرة عذاب عظيم الا ترى ان المخير الذي خيره الله الامام على شئ واحد وهو الكفر وليس هو على أشياء مختلفة، فقلت لأبي عبد الله صلوات الله عليه: قول الله تعالى، (أو ينفوا من الأرض)؟ قال: ذلك لطلب ان تطلبه الخيل حتى يهرب فان أخذته الخيل حكم عليه ببعض الاحكام التي وصفت لك والحديث طويل أخذنا منه موضع الحاجة

(It  has  been  narrated) from  Abu  Abdullah asws having said: ‘A group of sick people from the Clan of Zabba came to Rasool-Allah saww. So Rasool-Allah saww said to them: ‘Encamp near me saww,  so  when  you  get  better  I saww shall  send  you  all  upon  your way’. So they said, ‘Get us out of Al-Medina’. So  he saww sent  them  (some)  camels  as  charity,  and  they  used  to drink  from  their urine  and  eat  from  their  milk.So  when  they  were  cured  and  became  strong,  they killed  three  people  who  were  looking  after  the  camels.  (The  news  of)  that  reached Rasool-Allah saww, so he saww sent Ali asws towards them, and they were found to be in a valley, wandering around, not being able to get out from it, somewhere near Yemen. So he asws captivated them and came with them to Rasool-Allah saww. Thus this Verse was  Revealed [5:33] But  rather,  the Recompense of  those  who  wage  war against  Allah  and  His Rasool and  strive  to  make  mischief  in  the  land  is  only this,  that  they  should  be  murdered  or  crucified  or  their  hands  and  their  feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world. Thus Rasool-Allah saww chose the cutting, so he saww had their hands and their feet cut off on opposite sides’

Prediction: You will continue to ignore my questions and focus on the eye gouging to save face, try it and see where that gets you.

Wrong prediction. Limbs aka hands and legs. The Prophet allegedly cut them off when the ayah called for alternate; no mention of eyes. These people were not at war with the Prophet and hence this would not be applicable to them. Unless you can prove they were at war.

As for your question - were they causing corruption? No, they committed a crime but were not calling for others to do it or replicate their actions so they were not causing corruption. Furthermore, the ayah calls for whoever is at war with Allah and the Prophet so answer my question - were they at war with the Prophet?
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 02:02:46 AM
It is quite simple my dear Sunni brothers and sisters:

Either you believe in a Prophet who during the day cut off peoples hands and legs (not limbs), branded their eyes and left them to die of thirst AND who during the night went around sleeping with all his wives (did he do ghusl in between I wonder)

OR

Sahih Bukhari is not all that sahih after all.

It really is that simple.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2016, 05:10:40 AM
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 67, Hadith 6

Would you care to tell us why the words "have sexual relations with" are in parenthesis?  They are in parenthesis because they are inserted into the narration.  The correct translation of the hadith should be, "Narrated Anas: The Prophet used to visit all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives” (Bukhari ::Volume 7 :: Book 62 :: Hadith 6)".

What is wrong with a man visiting all of his wives?  Justice and equality (in polygamous society) necessitates that a man visits, and checks upon, all of his wives.  Visiting your wives does not mean you had sexual intercourse with them.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 05:29:45 AM
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 67, Hadith 6

Would you care to tell us why the words "have sexual relations with" are in parenthesis?  They are in parenthesis because they are inserted into the narration.  The correct translation of the hadith should be, "Narrated Anas: The Prophet used to visit all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives” (Bukhari ::Volume 7 :: Book 62 :: Hadith 6)".

What is wrong with a man visiting all of his wives?  Justice and equality (in polygamous society) necessitates that a man visits, and checks upon, all of his wives.  Visiting your wives does not mean you had sexual intercourse with them.

Good question. I didn't add it and I guarantee no shia did either but there it is.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 14, 2016, 05:33:27 AM
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn al-Hakam from Hisham ibn Salim who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah(as) said:.. At dawn Jibril descended with a dish of mashed meat and wheat from paradise and said, ‘O Muhammad, this is made for you by al-Hur al-‘In. You can eat it with Ali and his children; it is not proper that people other than you eat it.’ The Messenger of Allah, Ali, Fatimah, al-Hassan and al-Husayn ate it (the food that Jibril had brought from paradise) and it gave the Messenger of Allah the ability in matters of going to bed with his wives which was equal to that of forty men, thus he (the Messenger of Allah) could go to bed with all of his wives in one night if he so wanted.’”( Al-Kafi: H 10221, Ch. 190, h 41 ; Majlisi said: Sahih in Miraat ul Uqool 20/422)

We read in Al-Kafi

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Khalid from his father or others from Sa‘d ibn s; from al-Hassan ibn Jahm who has said the following: “I once saw Abu al-Hassan(as) had used dye. I said, ‘I pray to Allah to keep my soul in service for your cause, I can see you have used dyes.’ He (the Imam) said, ‘Yes, readiness is of the matters that increases chastity of women and women neglect chastity because of their husband’s neglect of readiness.’ He (the Imam) then said, ‘Will you be happy to see her without readiness?’ I replied, ‘No, it does not make me happy.’ He (the Imam) said, ‘In the same way it will not make her happy to see you without readiness.’ He (the Imam) then said, ‘It is of the moral behavior of the prophets to maintain cleanliness, use perfumes, shave the hairs and going to bed with one’s wife very often.’ He (the Imam) then said, ‘Sulayman ibn Dawud(as) had one thousand women in one palace of whom three hundred were publicly known and seven hundred of them were secretly married. The Messenger of Allah(saw), had the ability equal to forty men of going to bed with his wives, he(the Messenger of Allah) had nine wives and moved among them every night and day.’”[Al Kafi: H 10230, Ch. 190, h 50]


We read in a tradition with a SAHIH chain from Imam Baqir(as) in Shia book Hayat-ul-Qaloob:

Imam Baqir(as) said: Prophet Sulayman(as) had a fort, having 1000 rooms made by Jinns for him, and in every room one of his wife used to live. From these 300 were his wives and 700 were concubines. Allah gave him the sexual strength of 40 men. He used to daily visit all of his women and used fulfill their desires.(Majlisi declared chain as Sahih, Hayat-ul-Qaloob vol 1, p. 644) .
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2016, 05:39:12 AM
Good question. I didn't add it and I guarantee no shia did either but there it is.

You know where the Shias got it from?  A non-Muslim source whose sole purpose is to defame the Prophet [saw].  And do you know where that source borrowed it from?  Some software which allegedly had these hadiths compiled.

Our transparency with our texts has a reason behind it.  We stand by our texts.  But I have yet to see one complete collection of Al-Kafi in English.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 14, 2016, 05:44:40 AM
The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We do not believe in a limb-chopping, eye-gouging Prophet.

We know you don't believe in Prophet Muhammad(saws), but thanks for admitting this so openly. You might also not believe in the prophet, who chopped off the hands of thieves, are ordered the one who consumed alcohol to be lashed, etc, since it would go against your narrow minded and confided understandings.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 06:20:29 AM
The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We do not believe in a limb-chopping, eye-gouging Prophet.

We know you don't believe in Prophet Muhammad(saws), but thanks for admitting this so openly. You might also not believe in the prophet, who chopped off the hands of thieves, are ordered the one who consumed alcohol to be lashed, etc, since it would go against your narrow minded and confided understandings.
OMG, you got me.

Appropriate punishment for the crime behooves the Prophet. Limb-chopping, eye-branding followed by killing by thirst does not AND then going around sleeping with all 9 wives in the same night.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 14, 2016, 06:49:54 AM
The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We do not believe in a limb-chopping, eye-gouging Prophet.

We know you don't believe in Prophet Muhammad(saws), but thanks for admitting this so openly. You might also not believe in the prophet, who chopped off the hands of thieves, are ordered the one who consumed alcohol to be lashed, etc, since it would go against your narrow minded and confided understandings.
OMG, you got me.

Appropriate punishment for the crime behooves the Prophet. Limb-chopping, eye-branding followed by killing by thirst does not
So Mr. Ignorant. Care to research a bit, before making absurd claims about Prophet(saws). The reason why the Prophet applied such a brutal punishment to those Bedouins was because the Prophet found out that those Bedouins did the same exact thing to the shepherd. It was an appropriate punishment. FOr details refer this article:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/counter_rebuttal_to_people_of_ukl.htm


Quote
AND then going around sleeping with all 9 wives in the same night.
Gifts for ignorant propagandists like you.

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn al-Hakam from Hisham ibn Salim who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah(as) said:.. At dawn Jibril descended with a dish of mashed meat and wheat from paradise and said, ‘O Muhammad, this is made for you by al-Hur al-‘In. You can eat it with Ali and his children; it is not proper that people other than you eat it.’ The Messenger of Allah, Ali, Fatimah, al-Hassan and al-Husayn ate it (the food that Jibril had brought from paradise) and it gave the Messenger of Allah the ability in matters of going to bed with his wives which was equal to that of forty men, thus he (the Messenger of Allah) could go to bed with all of his wives in one night if he so wanted.’”( Al-Kafi: H 10221, Ch. 190, h 41 ; Majlisi said: Sahih in Miraat ul Uqool 20/422)

We read in Al-Kafi

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Khalid from his father or others from Sa‘d ibn s; from al-Hassan ibn Jahm who has said the following: “I once saw Abu al-Hassan(as) had used dye. I said, ‘I pray to Allah to keep my soul in service for your cause, I can see you have used dyes.’ He (the Imam) said, ‘Yes, readiness is of the matters that increases chastity of women and women neglect chastity because of their husband’s neglect of readiness.’ He (the Imam) then said, ‘Will you be happy to see her without readiness?’ I replied, ‘No, it does not make me happy.’ He (the Imam) said, ‘In the same way it will not make her happy to see you without readiness.’ He (the Imam) then said, ‘It is of the moral behavior of the prophets to maintain cleanliness, use perfumes, shave the hairs and going to bed with one’s wife very often.’ He (the Imam) then said, ‘Sulayman ibn Dawud(as) had one thousand women in one palace of whom three hundred were publicly known and seven hundred of them were secretly married. The Messenger of Allah(saw), had the ability equal to forty men of going to bed with his wives, he(the Messenger of Allah) had nine wives and moved among them every night and day.’”[Al Kafi: H 10230, Ch. 190, h 50]


We read in a tradition with a SAHIH chain from Imam Baqir(as) in Shia book Hayat-ul-Qaloob:

Imam Baqir(as) said: Prophet Sulayman(as) had a fort, having 1000 rooms made by Jinns for him, and in every room one of his wife used to live. From these 300 were his wives and 700 were concubines. Allah gave him the sexual strength of 40 men. He used to daily visit all of his women and used fulfill their desires.(Majlisi declared chain as Sahih, Hayat-ul-Qaloob vol 1, p. 644) .
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: fgss on July 14, 2016, 07:36:36 AM
The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We do not believe in a limb-chopping, eye-gouging Prophet.

Narrated Anas:
The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron.
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 76, Hadith 9

Perhaps this is what ISIS and Taliban use to justify their violent behavior.

Brother, you are right, Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. No doubt, it is in Quran. Likewise whatever Prophet did as mentioned in above hadith is also as per Quran. Surah Maida 33. He was following orders of Allah. Now will anyone blame Allah for this? No. Then why so much blame on Bukhari on same thing?

Maida 33:
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

Cutting hands and feets is clearly mentioned in maida 33 but not eye gouging. But there is a word crucify as well, which means to persecute, tear apart, put to death etc. Eye gouging is also crucifixion.

This penality was given to those people as per orders of Allah, because not only they violated the orders of Prophet but also caused corruption on earth. Similiar narrations are also in shia books.

Any thing that goes against the Quran must be rejected not which is in accordance with the Quran.

Prophet is a mercy only for those who believe in him and follow him, not for those who oppose him and wage war against him, violate his orders etc. It is also in Quran.

Surah Tauba 33.
It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

We have to follow orders of Allah and His prophet, even though polytheist may dislike or hate.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: fgss on July 14, 2016, 07:43:35 AM
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 67, Hadith 6


This is absolute rubbish, whoever added such words in brackets is himself responsible/accoutable for this before Allah. These words are not part of original hadith in arabic. And we are not bound or forced to accept such nonsense interpretation of hadith. Going to your wives does'nt only mean that you do sexual activities.

Blame is on the person who added such words not on bukhari.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 14, 2016, 09:14:45 AM
Quote
Wrong prediction. Limbs aka hands and legs. Prophet allegedly cut them off when the ayah called for alternate; no mention of eyes. These people were not at war with the Prophet and hence this would not be applicable to them. Unless you can prove they were at war.

You are getting desperate, my prediction is still partially true as you didnt answer all my questions and you brought up the eye gouging again. I will repeat my question for a third time:
Where does it say all?
Hands and legs? You are trying very hard, where does it say legs? And since when are hands commonly known as limbs?
Do you reject the narration from al Kafi? Do you mind then telling us when the said verse was revealed?
Are you saying that in Jafari fiqh hands and feet are only cut off of war criminals, not bandits?

As for the eye gouging, as is usual with shia's, you only read one narration without ever looking into narrations that are related to it.
Quote
نِي الْفَضْلُ بْنُ سَهْلٍ الأَعْرَجُ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ غَيْلاَنَ، حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ زُرَيْعٍ، عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ التَّيْمِيِّ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ، قَالَ إِنَّمَا سَمَلَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَعْيُنَ أُولَئِكَ لأَنَّهُمْ سَمَلُوا
Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) pierced their eyes because they had pierced the eyes of the shepherds.

As for your answer:
Quote
As for your question - were they causing corruption? No, they committed a crime but were not calling for others to do it or replicate their actions so they were not causing corruption.
You are really getting more and more desperate, are you saying that according to Jafari fiqh, one is considered to cause corruption ie fasad only when he is calling others to do or replicate it? Dont think you can get away with such easy statements, you have shown your colors and unless you reject Jafari fiqh too, it will only get worse.

Quote
Furthermore, the ayah calls for whoever is at war with Allah and the Prophet so answer my question - were they at war with the Prophet?

Getting really really desperate, yes they were at war, do you need a declaration of war?
Quote
حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادٌ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّ رَهْطًا، مِنْ عُكْلٍ ـ أَوْ قَالَ عُرَيْنَةَ وَلاَ أَعْلَمُهُ إِلاَّ قَالَ مِنْ عُكْلٍ ـ قَدِمُوا الْمَدِينَةَ، فَأَمَرَ لَهُمُ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِلِقَاحٍ، وَأَمَرَهُمْ أَنْ يَخْرُجُوا فَيَشْرَبُوا مِنْ أَبْوَالِهَا وَأَلْبَانِهَا، فَشَرِبُوا حَتَّى إِذَا بَرِئُوا قَتَلُوا الرَّاعِيَ وَاسْتَاقُوا النَّعَمَ، فَبَلَغَ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم غُدْوَةً فَبَعَثَ الطَّلَبَ فِي إِثْرِهِمْ، فَمَا ارْتَفَعَ النَّهَارُ حَتَّى جِيءَ بِهِمْ، فَأَمَرَ بِهِمْ فَقَطَعَ أَيْدِيَهُمْ وَأَرْجُلَهُمْ وَسَمَرَ أَعْيُنَهُمْ، فَأُلْقُوا بِالْحَرَّةِ يَسْتَسْقُونَ فَلاَ يُسْقَوْنَ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو قِلاَبَةَ هَؤُلاَءِ قَوْمٌ سَرَقُوا، وَقَتَلُوا، وَكَفَرُوا بَعْدَ إِيمَانِهِمْ، وَحَارَبُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ‏.‏
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
A group of people from `Ukl (or `Uraina) tribe ----but I think he said that they were from `Ukl came to Medina and (they became ill, so) the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) she-camels and told them to go out and drink the camels' urine and milk (as a medicine). So they went and drank it, and when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) early in the morning, so he sent (some) men in their pursuit and they were captured and brought to the Prophet (ﷺ) before midday. He ordered to cut off their hands and legs and their eyes to be branded with heated iron pieces and they were thrown at Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink, they were not given water. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those were the people who committed theft and murder and reverted to disbelief after being believers (Muslims), and fought against Allah and His Apostle").

Start answering some questions and reveal your disbelief even further
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: fgss on July 14, 2016, 10:19:01 AM
When you isolate any single narration or verse of Quran you will never understand properly. In order to clearly understand the matter you have to read all related narrations or verses of Quran about the matter under study.

Here are related ahadith to the hadith under question i.e of Bukhari, Book 76 Medicine, Hadith 9. All these are narrated by Anas bin Malik r.a.

Chapter 15:
The chapter of those who wage war from the people who are disbelievers and those turned renegades.

Narrated Anas:

Some people from the tribe of `Ukl came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet (ﷺ) sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6802, Book 86, Hadith 32.

Chapter (16):
The Prophet (saws) did not cauterize those who fought and of those who were renegades

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet (ﷺ) cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of `Uraina and did not cauterise (their bleeding limbs) till they died.

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6803, Book 86, Hadith 33

Chapter (17):
No water was given to those turned renegades and fought, till they died

Narrated Anas:

A group of people from `Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and they were living with the people of As- Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Provide us with milk." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle." So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away. When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day. The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not cauterized. Then they were put at a place called Al- Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not given till they died. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder and fought against Allah and His Apostle.")

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6804, Book 86, Hadith 34

Chapter (18):
The Prophet (saws) branded the eyes of those who fought

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

A group of people from `Ukl (or `Uraina) tribe ----but I think he said that they were from `Ukl came to Medina and (they became ill, so) the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) she-camels and told them to go out and drink the camels' urine and milk (as a medicine). So they went and drank it, and when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) early in the morning, so he sent (some) men in their pursuit and they were captured and brought to the Prophet (ﷺ) before midday. He ordered to cut off their hands and legs and their eyes to be branded with heated iron pieces and they were thrown at Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink, they were not given water. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those were the people who committed theft and murder and reverted to disbelief after being believers (Muslims), and fought against Allah and His Apostle").

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6805, Book 86, Hadith 35

Chapter (2): The ruling on Muharibin and Apostates


Anas reported:
Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukl came to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and swore allegiance to him on Islam, but found the climate of that land uncogenial to their health and thus they became sick, and they made complaint of that to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), and he said: Why don't you go to (the fold) of our camels along with our shepherd, and make use of their milk and urine. They said: Yes. They set out and drank their (camels') milk and urine and regained their health. They killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This (news) reached Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he sent them on their track and they were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Ibn al-Sabbah with a slight variation of words.

Reference: Sahih Muslim 1671 b, Book 28, Hadith 13

Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) pierced their eyes because they had pierced the eyes of the shepherds.

Reference: Sahih Muslim 1671 h, Book 28, Hadith 19

And the punishments given to them were as per order of Allah.

Maida 33:
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2016, 06:07:52 PM
OMG, you got me.

Appropriate punishment for the crime behooves the Prophet. Limb-chopping, eye-branding followed by killing by thirst does not AND then going around sleeping with all 9 wives in the same night.

See, this is why when a Shia says, "brother, let us discuss so that we may benefit", in my head, I translate it to, "brother, listen to my verbal diarrhea because there is no way I will listen to yours".

Both the hadiths - regarding limb-chopping and "sleeping with all of his wives in one night" - have been clarified.  In fact, we have given you the same narrations from your own texts.  Yet you wish to bury your head in sand and pretend you are right. 

Wallaahi, the intellectual dishonesty - well, dishonesty in general - with which you Shias approach discussions is shameful and it reflects the sort of education you receive from your mosques and learning centers.  Didn't you say that we accomplish nothing and all we do is talk among ourselves?  Wallaahi, that is what you do!  Your scholars and their refutations (of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah) sound shatterproof in your majaalis.  But when they share an equal and neutral platform with our scholars, like Al-Mustakillah debates, they run away with their tails tucked between their legs.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 09:19:50 PM

See, this is why when a Shia says, "brother, let us discuss so that we may benefit", in my head, I translate it to, "brother, listen to my verbal diarrhea because there is no way I will listen to yours".

Both the hadiths - regarding limb-chopping and "sleeping with all of his wives in one night" - have been clarified.  In fact, we have given you the same narrations from your own texts.  Yet you wish to bury your head in sand and pretend you are right. 

Wallaahi, the intellectual dishonesty - well, dishonesty in general - with which you Shias approach discussions is shameful and it reflects the sort of education you receive from your mosques and learning centers.  Didn't you say that we accomplish nothing and all we do is talk among ourselves?  Wallaahi, that is what you do!  Your scholars and their refutations (of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah) sound shatterproof in your majaalis.  But when they share an equal and neutral platform with our scholars, like Al-Mustakillah debates, they run away with their tails tucked between their legs.

Brother - did I insert "(sexual relations)" in Sahih Bukhari? No. You want me to selectively read it by ignoring everything in paranthesis?

The ayah mentioned with regards to those who fight against Allah and Muhammad is not applicable to the hadith in Bukhari because:
1) those people were not at war with Allah nor the Prophet
2) the ayah calls for either punishment A or B or C and not all of the above.
3) killing by thirst is not mentioned.
So did the Prophet misunderstand?

We are discussing problems with Bukhari. I listed 2 simple ones and then another one where Abu Huraira claims we will see Allah (might be a different thread here). There are a lot more like this.

Brother, you are right, Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. No doubt, it is in Quran. Likewise whatever Prophet did as mentioned in above hadith is also as per Quran. Surah Maida 33. He was following orders of Allah. Now will anyone blame Allah for this? No. Then why so much blame on Bukhari on same thing?

Maida 33:
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

Cutting hands and feets is clearly mentioned in maida 33 but not eye gouging. But there is a word crucify as well, which means to persecute, tear apart, put to death etc. Eye gouging is also crucifixion.

This penality was given to those people as per orders of Allah, because not only they violated the orders of Prophet but also caused corruption on earth. Similiar narrations are also in shia books.

Any thing that goes against the Quran must be rejected not which is in accordance with the Quran.

Prophet is a mercy only for those who believe in him and follow him, not for those who oppose him and wage war against him, violate his orders etc. It is also in Quran.

Surah Tauba 33.
It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

We have to follow orders of Allah and His prophet, even though polytheist may dislike or hate.
Sorry brother - eye gouging and crucifixion are completely different. What about the killing by thirst? Also these people were not at war with Allah or the Prophet so again, does not apply.

This is absolute rubbish, whoever added such words in brackets is himself responsible/accoutable for this before Allah. These words are not part of original hadith in arabic. And we are not bound or forced to accept such nonsense interpretation of hadith. Going to your wives does'nt only mean that you do sexual activities.

Blame is on the person who added such words not on bukhari.
I agree it is rubbish. Yet there it is. And no shia put it there. And that is the whole point of this discussion that not everything in Bukhari can be taken for what it is.

You are getting desperate, my prediction is still partially true as you didnt answer all my questions and you brought up the eye gouging again. I will repeat my question for a third time:
Where does it say all?
Hands and legs? You are trying very hard, where does it say legs? And since when are hands commonly known as limbs?
Do you reject the narration from al Kafi? Do you mind then telling us when the said verse was revealed?
Are you saying that in Jafari fiqh hands and feet are only cut off of war criminals, not bandits?

As for the eye gouging, as is usual with shia's, you only read one narration without ever looking into narrations that are related to it.
Quote
نِي الْفَضْلُ بْنُ سَهْلٍ الأَعْرَجُ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ غَيْلاَنَ، حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ زُرَيْعٍ، عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ التَّيْمِيِّ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ، قَالَ إِنَّمَا سَمَلَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَعْيُنَ أُولَئِكَ لأَنَّهُمْ سَمَلُوا
Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) pierced their eyes because they had pierced the eyes of the shepherds.

As for your answer:
Quote
As for your question - were they causing corruption? No, they committed a crime but were not calling for others to do it or replicate their actions so they were not causing corruption.
You are really getting more and more desperate, are you saying that according to Jafari fiqh, one is considered to cause corruption ie fasad only when he is calling others to do or replicate it? Dont think you can get away with such easy statements, you have shown your colors and unless you reject Jafari fiqh too, it will only get worse.

Quote
Furthermore, the ayah calls for whoever is at war with Allah and the Prophet so answer my question - were they at war with the Prophet?

Getting really really desperate, yes they were at war, do you need a declaration of war?
Quote
حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادٌ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّ رَهْطًا، مِنْ عُكْلٍ ـ أَوْ قَالَ عُرَيْنَةَ وَلاَ أَعْلَمُهُ إِلاَّ قَالَ مِنْ عُكْلٍ ـ قَدِمُوا الْمَدِينَةَ، فَأَمَرَ لَهُمُ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِلِقَاحٍ، وَأَمَرَهُمْ أَنْ يَخْرُجُوا فَيَشْرَبُوا مِنْ أَبْوَالِهَا وَأَلْبَانِهَا، فَشَرِبُوا حَتَّى إِذَا بَرِئُوا قَتَلُوا الرَّاعِيَ وَاسْتَاقُوا النَّعَمَ، فَبَلَغَ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم غُدْوَةً فَبَعَثَ الطَّلَبَ فِي إِثْرِهِمْ، فَمَا ارْتَفَعَ النَّهَارُ حَتَّى جِيءَ بِهِمْ، فَأَمَرَ بِهِمْ فَقَطَعَ أَيْدِيَهُمْ وَأَرْجُلَهُمْ وَسَمَرَ أَعْيُنَهُمْ، فَأُلْقُوا بِالْحَرَّةِ يَسْتَسْقُونَ فَلاَ يُسْقَوْنَ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو قِلاَبَةَ هَؤُلاَءِ قَوْمٌ سَرَقُوا، وَقَتَلُوا، وَكَفَرُوا بَعْدَ إِيمَانِهِمْ، وَحَارَبُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ‏.‏
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
A group of people from `Ukl (or `Uraina) tribe ----but I think he said that they were from `Ukl came to Medina and (they became ill, so) the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) she-camels and told them to go out and drink the camels' urine and milk (as a medicine). So they went and drank it, and when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) early in the morning, so he sent (some) men in their pursuit and they were captured and brought to the Prophet (ﷺ) before midday. He ordered to cut off their hands and legs and their eyes to be branded with heated iron pieces and they were thrown at Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink, they were not given water. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those were the people who committed theft and murder and reverted to disbelief after being believers (Muslims), and fought against Allah and His Apostle").

Start answering some questions and reveal your disbelief even further

For limbs - refer to the post by Fahad Sani who mentions the limbs post.

Whatever Abu Qibala said is in paranthesis and just before your post, Fahad Sani said to ignroe everything in paranthesis. These people came to the Prophet so there were clearly not at war. They killed someone and should be punished as murders. Plus the ayah calls for either...or punishment and not all of the above. and of course nothing about the thirst.

Maida 33:
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 09:20:12 PM
@GreatChineseFall - what questions do you have???
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 14, 2016, 11:13:21 PM
Quote
For limbs - refer to the post by Fahad Sani who mentions the limbs post.
There are no limbs mentioned, if you think they are show the arabic yourself. The funny thing is I quoted a totally unrelated narration in Arabic and it was simply missed, for the second time now.

Quote
Whatever Abu Qibala said is in paranthesis and just before your post, Fahad Sani said to ignroe everything in paranthesis. These people came to the Prophet so there were clearly not at war. They killed someone and should be punished as murders.
Coming from someone who has to jump through several loopholes and make a crazy detour to claim that whoever steals land from Fatima and angers her angers the Prophet and so angers Allah and so is an enemy of Allah doesnt really sound convincing. And technically yuhaaribuna also means to plunder ( not yarhiboona, that looks more like something that is derived from embracing or welcoming)

Quote
Plus the ayah calls for either...or punishment and not all of the above and of course nothing about the thirst.
They are not punished for corruption only which the verse relates to, they are also punished as a retribution for what they did to the shepherds which is covered in another verse.

Quote
@GreatChineseFall - what questions do you have???

You complained about the narration in Bukhari and that you don't believe in a limb-chopping eye-gouging prophet. Then after you were shown wrong by a Quranic verse you tried to save face and claimed that "opposite hands and feet and all limbs are different." So my first questions are:

(1) Do you still stand by your first statement that you don't believe in a limb-chopping eye-gouging prophet?
(2) You said "opposite hands and feet and all limbs are different." Can you confirm that you dont have an issue with cutting off opposite hands and feet but you have an issue with all limbs?
(3)If yes, what do you have an issue with, the "all" part or the "limbs" part.
    (a) If limbs, can you show where that is mentioned?
    (b) If all, can you show where that is mentioned?

You then tried to save face by claiming that they weren't causing corruption and the verse doesn't apply stating that they weren't causing corruption by saying that "they committed a crime but were not calling for others to do it or replicate their actions so they were not causing corruption". Then I showed you another time wrong by showing a shia narration that indeed the incident happened. So my other questions are:

(4) Do you still stand by your statement that one only causes corruption by calling others to do or replicate it?
(5) Do you accept the narration quoted from al Kafi?

Then you tried to say that they weren't at war so the verse doesn't apply to them anyway. So I will give you another narration from al Kafi:
Quote
‘I  asked  Abu  Abdullah asws about  the  one  who  cuts-off  the  road  of  the  people (bandits), so I said, ‘The people are saying that the Imam asws has a choice regarding that. He asws can do whatsoever he asws likes to’. He asws said: ‘It is not that he asws does whatsoever he asws likes to, but he asws does with them in accordance to their crime. The one who cuts-off the road and murders and seizes the property, so he asws would cut-off his hands and his feet, and crucify him. And  the  one  who  cuts-off  the  road  and  murders,  but  does  not  seize  the  property, he asws would  have  him  killed.  And  the  one  who  cuts-off  the  road  and  seizes  the property,  but  does  not  murder,  he asws would  have  his  hand  and  his  leg  cut
off  from opposite sides. And the one who cuts-off the road, and does not seize the property and does not murder, so the Imam asws would have him exiled from the land’.

(6) Do you still stand by your statement that the verse does not apply to the one who steals and kills?
(7) Do you accept the narration from al Kafi?
(8) Do you accept that they plundered them? (How do you suppress the smilies?)

Then you started about eye-gouging and thirst etc. and my final question for now is:

(9) Do you accept retribution as a punishment?
(10) Do you have a problem with being punished with several punishments for several crimes?



Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 15, 2016, 01:02:46 AM
You seem to be quite hung up on limb.
Dictionary.com --> Limb=a part or member of an animal body distinct from the head and trunk, as a leg, arm, or wing

so simple english lesson for you: hadith says Prophet cut of their hands and legs. summary or paraphrase = limbs. I thought you would have more to offer but I guess not. Quite common for people who have a disdain for the Prophet.

(1) Do you still stand by your first statement that you don't believe in a limb-chopping eye-gouging prophet?
Yes, the Prophet while just was also Merciful. His administration of punishment would always fit the crime.

(2) You said "opposite hands and feet and all limbs are different." Can you confirm that you dont have an issue with cutting off opposite hands and feet but you have an issue with all limbs?
Ayah says opposite hands/foot aka limbs under specific circumstance so no issues.

(3)If yes, what do you have an issue with, the "all" part or the "limbs" part.
    (a) If limbs, can you show where that is mentioned?
    (b) If all, can you show where that is mentioned?
Ayah says opposite hand/foot
Narration says hands and feet

(4) Do you still stand by your statement that one only causes corruption by calling others to do or replicate it?
So that we are on the same page, corruption defined by dictionary.com:
1.
the act of corrupting or state of being corrupt.
2.
moral perversion; depravity.
3.
perversion of integrity.
4.
corrupt or dishonest proceedings.
5.
bribery.
6.
debasement or alteration, as of language or a text.
7.
a debased form of a word.
8.
putrefactive decay; rottenness.
9.
any corrupting influence or agency.

They didnt do any of the above.

(5) Do you accept the narration quoted from al Kafi?
Nope. Al-Kafi has plenty of false hadith. We do not consider any book sahih. Each hadith is validated on its own merit.

(6) Do you still stand by your statement that the verse does not apply to the one who steals and kills?
Yes.

(7) Do you accept the narration from al Kafi?
No.

(8) Do you accept that they plundered them? (How do you suppress the smilies?)
The hadith I quoted states they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. Where was the plundering?

(9) Do you accept retribution as a punishment?
Sure.

(10) Do you have a problem with being punished with several punishments for several crimes?
I have a problem with wrong punishment for wrong crime.
They stole - cut off their hands but why their legs?
They gouged his eyes - gouge back
They killed him - kill them

Still don't know why their legs were chopped and why they were not given water and killed while thirsty.

You may believe the Prophet capable of this things but not me.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Now my turn:
Did the ayah come first or this incident happen first (if they are related)?

If the incident happened first and then the ayah was sent, was the aah sent as a correction to the Prophet meaning he made a mistake?

If the ayah came first, then did the Prophet not see it fit to follow Allah's commands exactly and only punish them with 1 punishment?

I get it - you are trying your best to safeguard the sanctity of Bukhari at the expense of the Prophet.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: muslim720 on July 15, 2016, 04:37:03 AM

Brother - did I insert "(sexual relations)" in Sahih Bukhari? No. You want me to selectively read it by ignoring everything in paranthesis?

The ayah mentioned with regards to those who fight against Allah and Muhammad is not applicable to the hadith in Bukhari because:
1) those people were not at war with Allah nor the Prophet
2) the ayah calls for either punishment A or B or C and not all of the above.
3) killing by thirst is not mentioned.
So did the Prophet misunderstand?

We are discussing problems with Bukhari. I listed 2 simple ones and then another one where Abu Huraira claims we will see Allah (might be a different thread here). There are a lot more like this.

You did not insert that phrase in parenthesis but after having clarified the hadith for you, I thought you would have the decency to drop the matter.  Wallaahi, I do not know what type of people you associate with but one of my spiritual teachers taught me early on that when a report bears the name of the Prophet [saw], the last thing you should do is mock it, even if it is weak or fabricated.

Do you not realize that while the same narration is in your books that those people used the camels to replenish themselves and then squandered them?  As I always tell Shias, our methodology to understand a scenario is to collect all the authentic reports pertaining to it and then making a judgment.  If you read other narrations regarding this incident, found in the same Sahih Bukhari, you will realize that these camels (set free to run amok) were given as Zakat.  Furthermore, these men committed murder and became disbelievers.

Narrated Anas bin Malik:  A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them.  So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk."  Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels."  So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat.  Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims.  When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off.  Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina).  They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, "They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.") (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261)

Narrated Anas:  Some people from 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them, so Allah's Apostle allowed them to go to the herd of camels (given as Zakat) and they drank their milk and urine (as medicine) but they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. So Allah's Apostle sent (men) in their pursuit to catch them, and they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron and they were left in the Harra (a stony place at Medina) biting the stones. (Sahih Bukhari, volume 1, #234)

How much more corruption do you need?  And what do you understand of murder in return for mercy (of providing someone replenishment)?  But of course, if it is in Sahih Bukhari, you will go to extreme lengths to try to disprove it.

To shatter your final point, the reason why those things were done to them was because the Prophet [saw] found out that those Bedouins did the same exact thing to the shepherd

"The Prophet [saw] branded their eyes because they had branded the eyes of the herdsmen". (Al-Muntaqaa by Ibn al-Jarood, volume 1, Pg. 216)

And before you do a Sam Shamoun (from Answering Islam), let me assure you that the verse (Qur'an 5:33-34) was revealed after this incident.  In other words, this incident occurred before the revelation of the verses so it followed the rules of qisas.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/counter_rebuttal_to_people_of_ukl.htm

PS - line 'em up, we will go through them all in an afternoon and leave nothing for your madhhab to hide behind by evening, lol!
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: fgss on July 15, 2016, 01:35:23 PM
Sorry brother - eye gouging and crucifixion are completely different. What about the killing by thirst? Also these people were not at war with Allah or the Prophet so again, does not apply.

Brother I think you have missed some narrations. Everything is clearly mentioned there. Consider all narrations on this matter.

WHY EYE GOUGING? Because they did the same with shepherd.
Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) pierced their eyes because they had pierced the eyes of the shepherds. Sahih Muslim 1671 h, Book 28, Hadith 19.

WHY THIRST?
All sort of punishments given to those people were as per order of ALLAH. Not giving water is a kind of torture, which is also Crucifixion. (Different meanings of crucify, Visit, http://www.dictionary.com/browse/crucify)

those people were actually at war with Allah and Prophet so the penality applys to them correctly. Reverting back to disbelief after accepting Islam is also like declaring war agaisnt Allah and Prophet.

(Abu Qilaba said, "Those were the people who committed theft and murder and reverted to disbelief after being believers (Muslims), and fought against Allah and His Apostle"). Sahih al-Bukhari 6805, Book 86, Hadith 35.

And Abu Qilaba is one of the narrator of Hadith, who is narrating from Sahabi Anas bin Malik directly.

I agree it is rubbish. Yet there it is. And no shia put it there. And that is the whole point of this discussion that not everything in Bukhari can be taken for what it is.

Neither any shia nor Imam Bukhari had put those words. It's the translater who did this. As those words in parenthesis are not part of original hadith in arabic. And no one is bound to accept such addition.

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ زُرَيْعٍ، حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدٌ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَ يَطُوفُ عَلَى نِسَائِهِ فِي لَيْلَةٍ وَاحِدَةٍ، وَلَهُ تِسْعُ نِسْوَةٍ‏.‏ وَقَالَ لِي خَلِيفَةُ حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ زُرَيْعٍ، حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدٌ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، أَنَّ أَنَسًا، حَدَّثَهُمْ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏

While such words are in narration of AL-KAFI and declared sahih by Baqir Majlisi.

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn al-Hakam from Hisham ibn Salim who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah(as) said:.. At dawn Jibril descended with a dish of mashed meat and wheat from paradise and said, ‘O Muhammad, this is made for you by al-Hur al-‘In. You can eat it with Ali and his children; it is not proper that people other than you eat it.’ The Messenger of Allah, Ali, Fatimah, al-Hassan and al-Husayn ate it (the food that Jibril had brought from paradise) and it gave the Messenger of Allah the ability in matters of going to bed with his wives which was equal to that of forty men, thus he (the Messenger of Allah) could go to bed with all of his wives in one night if he so wanted.’”
(Al-Kafi: H 10221, Ch. 190, h 41 ; Majlisi said: Sahih in Miraat ul Uqool 20/422)

Also, I agree (based on facts) not everything b/w two covers of Bukhari is sahih/correct. But most of the things are correct as comapred to other hadith collections specially narrations of Prophet s.a.w.w. Bukhari and other books as well also contains personal views/opinions of Sahabah, Tabi'in and Taba Tabi'in which are based on their understanding. Which may or may not be true. Same thing applys for narrations of Ahlebait in shia books. We have to match them with Quran and Sunnah.

For limbs - refer to the post by Fahad Sani who mentions the limbs post.

Whatever Abu Qibala said is in paranthesis and just before your post, Fahad Sani said to ignroe everything in paranthesis. These people came to the Prophet so there were clearly not at war. They killed someone and should be punished as murders. Plus the ayah calls for either...or punishment and not all of the above. and of course nothing about the thirst.

Maida 33:
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

Dear Brother, I never said to ignore everything in paranthesis. I said this only for narration concerning visiting wives. because those words are not part of original hadith in arabic. While words of Abu Qibala (who is narrator of the hadith) are part of hadith in arabic. Ignoring/rejecting words in parenthesis is not based on my personal choice but on facts. We have to accept the facts regardless of whether we like or not.

Arabic wording of hadith:

حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادٌ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّ رَهْطًا، مِنْ عُكْلٍ ـ أَوْ قَالَ عُرَيْنَةَ وَلاَ أَعْلَمُهُ إِلاَّ قَالَ مِنْ عُكْلٍ ـ قَدِمُوا الْمَدِينَةَ، فَأَمَرَ لَهُمُ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِلِقَاحٍ، وَأَمَرَهُمْ أَنْ يَخْرُجُوا فَيَشْرَبُوا مِنْ أَبْوَالِهَا وَأَلْبَانِهَا، فَشَرِبُوا حَتَّى إِذَا بَرِئُوا قَتَلُوا الرَّاعِيَ وَاسْتَاقُوا النَّعَمَ، فَبَلَغَ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم غُدْوَةً فَبَعَثَ الطَّلَبَ فِي إِثْرِهِمْ، فَمَا ارْتَفَعَ النَّهَارُ حَتَّى جِيءَ بِهِمْ، فَأَمَرَ بِهِمْ فَقَطَعَ أَيْدِيَهُمْ وَأَرْجُلَهُمْ وَسَمَرَ أَعْيُنَهُمْ، فَأُلْقُوا بِالْحَرَّةِ يَسْتَسْقُونَ فَلاَ يُسْقَوْنَ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو قِلاَبَةَ هَؤُلاَءِ قَوْمٌ سَرَقُوا، وَقَتَلُوا، وَكَفَرُوا بَعْدَ إِيمَانِهِمْ، وَحَارَبُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ‏.‏
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on July 15, 2016, 10:00:31 PM
ShiaMan, would you like to engage in a debate?
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 16, 2016, 12:45:52 AM
You did not insert that phrase in parenthesis but after having clarified the hadith for you, I thought you would have the decency to drop the matter.  Wallaahi, I do not know what type of people you associate with but one of my spiritual teachers taught me early on that when a report bears the name of the Prophet [saw], the last thing you should do is mock it, even if it is weak or fabricated.
Brother - I am not mocking the Prophet. All I am saying is that there are ahadith in Bukhari that are not sahih and I cited this as an example.
Do you know in Bukhari there are more versions of this hadith without "()". Then there is a hadith that says the Prophet was under a magic spell and believed he slept with all his wives and someone had to break those spells.
Do you believe this? How can you believe this?

So either you say Bukhari is not sahih meaning everything is correct in it OR you say yes the Prophet's (saw) sexual prowess stories are correct.

So that I do not offend anyone, I am only providing links to these hadith. It is up to you to reject them or accept them:
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/5/21
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/148
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/76/79
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/78/93

Also, I agree (based on facts) not everything b/w two covers of Bukhari is sahih/correct. But most of the things are correct as comapred to other hadith collections specially narrations of Prophet s.a.w.w. Bukhari and other books as well also contains personal views/opinions of Sahabah, Tabi'in and Taba Tabi'in which are based on their understanding. Which may or may not be true. Same thing applys for narrations of Ahlebait in shia books. We have to match them with Quran and Sunnah.
That is all I am saying brother.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 16, 2016, 12:59:00 AM
The Narration about the People of Ulk and their crime and their punishments. I think I see why are not all on the same page about it. There are several narrations about it.

The narration I initially quoted states, "he cut their hands and feet "
The other narrations state, "he ordered their hands and feet "

That is the issue and what I am saying is wrong about the narration. The Prophet did not himself cut the hands and feet and brand their eyes. He may have issued the edict to have this done but HE ABSOLUTELY DID NOT DO IT HIMSELF.

{Quran 21:107} And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

The Prophet (saw) was a mercy to all the worlds. As such, he never once raised his hands or swords at anyone. Not in any war and not to punish anyone.
Even in Uhud when all the sahaba but a few deserted him, he did not resort to fighting. His mercy was such that even if his enemy would have asked for his sword, he would have given it to him. In this case, had any of the criminals begged him for clemency, he would have had to oblige since HE WAS SENT AS A MERCY.

So did the Prophet go to wars - yes
Did the Prophet have POWs executed when required - yes
Did the Prophet have people punished for their crimes - yes
Ruling the punishment and executions was Allah's justice.
Not partaking in the execution of the rulings was the Prophet's mercy.

If any of you think the Prophet carried out the maiming, I will continue this discussion. Else the matter is closed for me and I am rejected the hadith I initially quoted.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 16, 2016, 01:00:09 AM
ShiaMan, would you like to engage in a debate?
Aren't we already engaged?

How old are you? Did the blue color and large font size imply something?

Sure
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on July 16, 2016, 01:33:15 AM
ShiaMan, would you like to engage in a debate?
Aren't we already engaged?

How old are you? Did the blue color and large font size imply something?

Sure

Great, first of all, what does my age have to do with anything? Secondly, I am ready to engage in a debate on PalTalk, go to the room called (عمر الفاروق صهر علي الكرار) in the Islamic section. What topic do you want to have a debate about? Also, I am free to use any font colour and size I want.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: fgss on July 16, 2016, 06:18:04 AM
The Narration about the People of Ulk and their crime and their punishments. I think I see why are not all on the same page about it. There are several narrations about it.

The narration I initially quoted states, "he cut their hands and feet "
The other narrations state, "he ordered their hands and feet "

That is the issue and what I am saying is wrong about the narration. The Prophet did not himself cut the hands and feet and brand their eyes. He may have issued the edict to have this done but HE ABSOLUTELY DID NOT DO IT HIMSELF.

{Quran 21:107} And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

The Prophet (saw) was a mercy to all the worlds. As such, he never once raised his hands or swords at anyone. Not in any war and not to punish anyone.
Even in Uhud when all the sahaba but a few deserted him, he did not resort to fighting. His mercy was such that even if his enemy would have asked for his sword, he would have given it to him. In this case, had any of the criminals begged him for clemency, he would have had to oblige since HE WAS SENT AS A MERCY.

So did the Prophet go to wars - yes
Did the Prophet have POWs executed when required - yes
Did the Prophet have people punished for their crimes - yes
Ruling the punishment and executions was Allah's justice.
Not partaking in the execution of the rulings was the Prophet's mercy.

If any of you think the Prophet carried out the maiming, I will continue this discussion. Else the matter is closed for me and I am rejected the hadith I initially quoted.

Obviously, Prophet s.a.w.w had ordered to punish them as per orders from ALLAH. He did not himself done this. That's why I shared all narrations about this matter. You can never understand properly by just relying on one or two narrations. You have to consider all information. If one narration does not suit you, its ok you can reject it but what about other narrations. Similarly, there are many narrations about ghadir e khumm which are terribly weak and fabrications but this done not mean event of ghadir is entirely false. You are not forced to accept each and everything from bukhari or from any other book, choice is yours. But atleast accept the facts which are in accordance to Quran. Obedience to Allah is more important than all. This punishment is in Quran. Prophet acted as per Quran. There is nothing wrong in that.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: muslim720 on July 16, 2016, 06:57:27 AM
Brother - I am not mocking the Prophet. All I am saying is that there are ahadith in Bukhari that are not sahih and I cited this as an example.

You cited two and not only we explained both but also showed the same from your own texts.  Before bringing more, provide a counter-rebuttal or throw in the towel (on those points) so that we can move on.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 19, 2016, 12:17:58 PM
You seem to be quite hung up on limb.
Dictionary.com --> Limb=a part or member of an animal body distinct from the head and trunk, as a leg, arm, or wing

so simple english lesson for you: hadith says Prophet cut of their hands and legs. summary or paraphrase = limbs. I thought you would have more to offer but I guess not. Quite common for people who have a disdain for the Prophet.

If you dont know the difference between a hand and a foot (which are extremities) and an arm and a leg (which are limbs) then all hope is lost. I cant believe you provide the evidence against yourself. And the only reason you are hung up on this, is because you were caught rejecting a Quranic verse and you will throw anything at your disposal instead of admitting it.

(1) Do you still stand by your first statement that you don't believe in a limb-chopping eye-gouging prophet?
Yes, the Prophet while just was also Merciful. His administration of punishment would always fit the crime.

(2) You said "opposite hands and feet and all limbs are different." Can you confirm that you dont have an issue with cutting off opposite hands and feet but you have an issue with all limbs?
Ayah says opposite hands/foot aka limbs under specific circumstance so no issues.
So first you have an issue with a limb chopping prophet, then you have no issue under specific circumstances. How you are able to contradict yourself in the next sentence is beyond me. Surely, you don't want to suggest that you were initially trying to say that you have an issue with a limb-chopping prophet under all circumstances?

Quote
Ayah says opposite hand/foot
Narration says hands and feet
The verse says hands and feet from opposite sides because it is talking about multiple people. The narration similarly is talking about multiple people and says hands and feet.

Quote
So that we are on the same page, corruption defined by dictionary.com:
We are talking about fasaad, not any english word.

Quote
Nope. Al-Kafi has plenty of false hadith. We do not consider any book sahih. Each hadith is validated on its own merit.

And there we have it, the go to excuse of every shia when he is cornered. I didnt ask you about the book, I asked you about the narration and reasons for accepting or rejecting it. As far as your excuse goes, then I too am a shia. I too believe al Kafi has plenty of false ahadith. I too believe we must use our common sense to reject the most ridiculous narrations from it.

Quote
That is the issue and what I am saying is wrong about the narration. The Prophet did not himself cut the hands and feet and brand their eyes. He may have issued the edict to have this done but HE ABSOLUTELY DID NOT DO IT HIMSELF.

Yet you rejected the narrations from al Kafi before without any consideration. Cut the act for a second, as I said, everyone knows that you just rejected a Quranic verse. The most mature way of handling it would be admitting your mistake but you chose to throw anything at your disposal, from discussing definitions of words, to counting hands and feet (I cant believe you seriously wanted to say that you have no issue with one hand and one foot, but have an issue with both hands and feet as if there is a fundamental difference !!!), to discussing whether armed robbery is fasaad or not.

The only person who is trying to protect the sanctity of anything is you, not the sanctity of Bukhari as you shamelessly attack that, not al Kafi as you have no problem rejecting anything that doesnt please you, not even the Prophet as you insist on having people follow a different way than him (maybe in your view he can encourage mut'ah and never do it, maybe in your view he can order killing and "maiming" but not do it himself, but for us he is a real source of emulation), no the only sanctity worth defending is the sanctity of your ego. Just so you know, a lot of the kuffaar in Mekkah didnt really disbelieve in the Prophet, it was their ego and their arrogance and stubbornness that prevented them from accepting the truth.


Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 20, 2016, 12:06:54 AM

Great, first of all, what does my age have to do with anything? Secondly, I am ready to engage in a debate on PalTalk, go to the room called (عمر الفاروق صهر علي الكرار) in the Islamic section. What topic do you want to have a debate about? Also, I am free to use any font colour and size I want.

I just thought it was funny that somehow the big bold blue font is supposed to mean or imply something. if you are 10 years old, I get it. If you are 50, I would say how immature and foolish.

I am not sure what PalTalk is. How we engage in dialogue on TwelverShia.Net. They are looking for ways to boost viewership.

Obviously, Prophet s.a.w.w had ordered to punish them as per orders from ALLAH. He did not himself done this. That's why I shared all narrations about this matter. You can never understand properly by just relying on one or two narrations. You have to consider all information. If one narration does not suit you, its ok you can reject it but what about other narrations. Similarly, there are many narrations about ghadir e khumm which are terribly weak and fabrications but this done not mean event of ghadir is entirely false. You are not forced to accept each and everything from bukhari or from any other book, choice is yours. But atleast accept the facts which are in accordance to Quran. Obedience to Allah is more important than all. This punishment is in Quran. Prophet acted as per Quran. There is nothing wrong in that.
That is all I am saying. The narration that states the Prophet cut off the hands and legs of those people is wrong.

You cited two and not only we explained both but also showed the same from your own texts.  Before bringing more, provide a counter-rebuttal or throw in the towel (on those points) so that we can move on.
Well, Brother Fahad Sani agrees with me that the narration that states the Prophet cut of hands and legs himself is not accurate. That is my point only.

Now as for the other narration about visiting the 9 wives on the same night for sexual pleasures, I would concede defeat if were not for these other narrations:

Narrated Qatada:
Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet (ﷺ) used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet (ﷺ) the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet (ﷺ) was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa`id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).
Chapter: Having sexual intercourse and repeating it. And engaging with one's own wives and taking a single bath (after doing so)
Sahih al-Bukhari
Vol. 1, Book 5, Hadith 268

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to visit all his wives in one night and he had nine wives at that time.
Chapter: A Junub person) can go out and walk in the market or anywhere else
Sahih al-Bukhari
Vol. 1, Book 5, Hadith 282

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
Chapter: Whoever had sexual intercourse with all his wives and then took one bath only
Sahih al-Bukhari
Vol. 7, Book 62, Hadith 142

But then as a clarification, we find more absurdity:

Narrated Aisha:
Magic was worked on Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect). Then one day he said, "O `Aisha do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I asked Him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other sat near my feet. The one near my head asked the other. What is wrong with this man?' The latter replied the is under the effect of magic The first one asked, Who has worked magic on him?' The other replied Labid bin Al-A'sam, a man from Bani Zuraiq who was an ally of the Jews and was a hypocrite.' The first one asked, What material did he use)?' The other replied, 'A comb and the hair stuck to it.' The first one asked, 'Where (is that)?' The other replied. 'In a skin of pollen of a male date palm tree kept under a stone in the well of Dharwan' '' So the Prophet (ﷺ) went to that well and took out those things and said "That was the well which was shown to me (in a dream) Its water looked like the infusion of Henna leaves and its date-palm trees looked like the heads of devils." The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "Then that thing was taken out' I said (to the Prophet (ﷺ) ) "Why do you not treat yourself with Nashra?" He said, "Allah has cured me; I dislike to let evil spread among my people."
Sahih al-Bukhari
Vol. 7, Book 71, Hadith 660

If you dont know the difference between a hand and a foot (which are extremities) and an arm and a leg (which are limbs) then all hope is lost. I cant believe you provide the evidence against yourself. And the only reason you are hung up on this, is because you were caught rejecting a Quranic verse and you will throw anything at your disposal instead of admitting it.
Only you would argue limbs versus extremities. I stand corrected as I was using limbs to mean hands and feet when clearly limbs are arms and legs and extremities are hands and feet.
After having said that, nothing changes in our discussion since the Prophet did not and could not cut off anyone's hands, feet, arms, legs other limbs, extremities or appendages.

The only person who is trying to protect the sanctity of anything is you, not the sanctity of Bukhari as you shamelessly attack that, not al Kafi as you have no problem rejecting anything that doesnt please you, not even the Prophet as you insist on having people follow a different way than him (maybe in your view he can encourage mut'ah and never do it, maybe in your view he can order killing and "maiming" but not do it himself, but for us he is a real source of emulation), no the only sanctity worth defending is the sanctity of your ego. Just so you know, a lot of the kuffaar in Mekkah didnt really disbelieve in the Prophet, it was their ego and their arrogance and stubbornness that prevented them from accepting the truth.
There it is folks. If not believing that the Prophet ever physically punished someone himself makes me a kaffir, then by all means call me Kaffir #1. Now, Br. Fahad Sani also agrees with me that the Prophet never carried out the punishment himself so is he in this category too now?

But there is no real surprise here since you spent days trying to convince me that the Prophet made mistakes. perhaps he forgot he was a mercy to the Worlds and happily chopped away at someone's limbs...I mean extremities.

PS. Only exception is Ubayy bin Khalaf who may or may not have been killed by the Prophet at Uhud.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: fgss on July 20, 2016, 06:41:03 AM

Well, Brother Fahad Sani agrees with me that the narration that states the Prophet cut of hands and legs himself is not accurate. That is my point only.


Brother, narration is authentic but words were not properly used by the narrator in that particular narration. It happen when you narrate something to others. Some narrators narrate few things while others elaborate. You have to first consider all narrations then make any conclusion. As it is evident from other related narrations that Prophet ordered to punish them but did not carried the punishment himself. Its very clear and no one is saying that Prophet himself cut of hands and feet. Main point is that the incident is authentic and as per teachings of Quran. There is nothing wrong in that.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 20, 2016, 10:36:33 PM
Quote
There it is folks. If not believing that the Prophet ever physically punished someone himself makes me a kaffir, then by all means call me Kaffir #1. Now, Br. Fahad Sani also agrees with me that the Prophet never carried out the punishment himself so is he in this category too now?

As usual terrible reading, where did I bring up kufr? I said you resemble the kuffaar in their stubbornness. It's obvious to everyone that when you chose to attack Bukhari for one of his narrations you didnt think of the verse or the shia narrations, but once they were shown to you instead of admitting your mistake, which is what a truth seeking person would do, you come with excuses one more ridiculous and pathetic than the other and at the same time contradicting each other. That is pure stubbornness, it is not a truth seeking mentality.

Quote
Only you would argue limbs versus extremities. I stand corrected as I was using limbs to mean hands and feet when clearly limbs are arms and legs and extremities are hands and feet.
After having said that, nothing changes in our discussion since the Prophet did not and could not cut off anyone's hands, feet, arms, legs other limbs, extremities or appendages.

Give it up man, nobody believes you. After having employed anything at your disposal to save face, you now try it with the whole "I dont believe the Prophet did such a thing". Unfortunately for you, what you wrote earlier stands as proof against your new excuse, so let's see how the discussion went and what you said:

Quote
Sure they killed the shepherd - the punishment of which is death, not maiming and eye-gouging.
Here you were discussing what is appropriate, not whether or not it was the Prophet who did it. If it was about the person, you shouldnt even bring up this.

Quote
These people were not at war with the Prophet and hence this would not be applicable to them.

Here again, you were attacking what is applicable or not, not discussing who did what.

Quote
Appropriate punishment for the crime behooves the Prophet.
Here again you are talking about what is appropriate as if the punishment wasnt appropriate. And by the way also contradicting directly what you last said, here you apparently admit that the Prophet can punish other people as long as it is approprate unlike your last statement that the Prophet would never punish.

Quote
eye gouging and crucifixion are completely different. What about the killing by thirst? Also these people were not at war with Allah or the Prophet so again, does not apply.
Here again you are discussing what is applicable, not what is merciful.

Quote
These people came to the Prophet so there were clearly not at war. They killed someone and should be punished as murders. Plus the ayah calls for either...or punishment and not all of the above. and of course nothing about the thirst.
Again not a single word about who did  it and how merciless it is, just what is applicable and just.

Quote
Yes, the Prophet while just was also Merciful. His administration of punishment would always fit the crime.
Here you literally say his administration, not the person which further shatters your excuse that it was about the Prophet and that you were objecting to whether "it fits the crime" or not.

Quote
(6) Do you still stand by your statement that the verse does not apply to the one who steals and kills?
Yes.
Here again about what is applicable not what is merciful.

Quote
I have a problem with wrong punishment for wrong crime.
They stole - cut off their hands but why their legs?
They gouged his eyes - gouge back
They killed him - kill them

Still don't know why their legs were chopped and why they were not given water and killed while thirsty.

You may believe the Prophet capable of this things but not me.
Here again you are contradicting yourself. You literally say "You may believe the Prophet capable of this things but not me" after you just said that it's ok if their hands are cut off their eyes are gouged out and that they are killed, you just had a problem with the feet and the thirst.


Then you make this 180 and say:
Quote
The Prophet (saw) was a mercy to all the worlds. As such, he never once raised his hands or swords at anyone. Not in any war and not to punish anyone.

But let me cut this short very quickly. I have two questions for you:
(1) Are you saying that the verse I quoted is devoid of any mercy?
(2) You consider a person being merciful if he doesnt do a merciless act himself but ORDERS(not adviced, not suggested, not inspired, no ORDERED) other people to do that for him? For example, if a president of a country doesnt kill anyone himself but orders his military to bomb innocent children and women, he still might be a merciful guy to you? This definitely would explain a lot.
Or do you think Yazid, if he didnt kill Hussain himself, just ordered it was being merciful?
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 21, 2016, 01:21:23 AM
Brother, narration is authentic but words were not properly used by the narrator in that particular narration. It happen when you narrate something to others. Some narrators narrate few things while others elaborate. You have to first consider all narrations then make any conclusion. As it is evident from other related narrations that Prophet ordered to punish them but did not carried the punishment himself. Its very clear and no one is saying that Prophet himself cut of hands and feet. Main point is that the incident is authentic and as per teachings of Quran. There is nothing wrong in that.
But GreatChineseFall is insisting that the Prophet did cut of the "extremities". I am in agreement that the narrations that state "he ordered" are correct and the one that says "he cut off..." is inaccurate.

As usual terrible reading, where did I bring up kufr? I said you resemble the kuffaar in their stubbornness. It's obvious to everyone that when you chose to attack Bukhari for one of his narrations you didnt think of the verse or the shia narrations, but once they were shown to you instead of admitting your mistake, which is what a truth seeking person would do, you come with excuses one more ridiculous and pathetic than the other and at the same time contradicting each other. That is pure stubbornness, it is not a truth seeking mentality.
Right because only kuffar are stubborn.
I have been saying all along that the Prophet would not do such a thing. For you imply that I am being stubborn may have been correct had I not known about the punishments ordered by the Prophet after wars and specifically after the Banu Qurayza incident. This event happened after all those incidents towards the tail end of the Prophet's life.
Perhaps my mistake was that I only highlighted the "he cut" narration when I should have quoted the "he ordered" narration and shown them to be different. But I am sure you would have found some syntax/linguistic/grammatical/etc argument to get around the crux of the matter.

Thanks for quoting me from beginning to end. I was going to do the same. The discussion started off with me saying the Prophet did not "cut" off someone's limbs (extremities since I have been corrected). Then we digressed into comparing the incident with the ayah and how close (or not) they were related. Then I ended with the Islam allows eye4eye punishment so cutting of their hands if that is what they did is ok, same goes for legs, eyes, etc.  I was highlighting the differences between the ayah and the narrations of the incident.
Of course, I said the Prophet was fair in his administration of the punishment of the crime. I did not say in his execution of the crime so pardon me for assuming that even the most basic Muslims knows the Prophet issued the verdicts but the execution of the verdict was carried out by Muslims.
All you have done in successfully showing is that you will dance and run around in circles rather than get to the main issue at hand - did the Prophet cut off their 'extremities' or not?

But let me cut this short very quickly. I have two questions for you:
(1) Are you saying that the verse I quoted is devoid of any mercy?
(2) You consider a person being merciful if he doesnt do a merciless act himself but ORDERS(not adviced, not suggested, not inspired, no ORDERED) other people to do that for him? For example, if a president of a country doesnt kill anyone himself but orders his military to bomb innocent children and women, he still might be a merciful guy to you? This definitely would explain a lot.
Or do you think Yazid, if he didnt kill Hussain himself, just ordered it was being merciful?
1) While Allah is surely Rahman and Raheem, He is also Hakam (Judge), Adl (Just), Hasib (Bringer of Judgement),  Mumit (Bringer of Death), Muntaqim (Avenger), Darr (Afflictor). The ayah is about those who fight against Allah and the Prophet and what punishment that are to receive for it. It is devoid of mercy but that does not mean Allah is devoid of mercy or the Prophet is devoid of it.
2) Yazid's example is not applicable simly because Imam Hussain had committed no crime. The Prophet was merciful to the family of the victims and at the same time Just to the criminals.

Once again, you want to hung up on technicalities so I will keep it simple for you as well.

My 2 questions:
Did the Prophet himself directly cut off an extremity (at least one) of any of those criminals?
Can the Prophet be put under a magic spell?
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: muslim720 on July 26, 2016, 01:28:25 PM
Now as for the other narration about visiting the 9 wives on the same night for sexual pleasures, I would concede defeat if were not for these other narrations:

Narrated Qatada:
Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet (ﷺ) used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet (ﷺ) the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet (ﷺ) was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa`id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).
Chapter: Having sexual intercourse and repeating it. And engaging with one's own wives and taking a single bath (after doing so)
Sahih al-Bukhari
Vol. 1, Book 5, Hadith 268

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to visit all his wives in one night and he had nine wives at that time.
Chapter: A Junub person) can go out and walk in the market or anywhere else
Sahih al-Bukhari
Vol. 1, Book 5, Hadith 282

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
Chapter: Whoever had sexual intercourse with all his wives and then took one bath only
Sahih al-Bukhari
Vol. 7, Book 62, Hadith 142

One narration, all from Anas bin Malik [ra], repeated - even the one already refuted with the words "have sexual relation with" inserted in it - regurgitated to paint a certain picture of our narrations when similar narrations exist in your own books.

The details of his visit are found in this narration: Urwa reported on the authority of his father:
‘Aisha said: "O my nephew, the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) did not prefer one of us to other in respect of his division of time of his staying with us.  It was very rare that he did not visit any of us any day.  He would come near each of his wives without having any intercourse with her until he reached the one who had her day (i.e. her turn) and passed his night with her...." (Sunan Abū Dawūd Hadīth 2135) 

The same narration can be found in Musnad Ahmad (No. 23621), Baihaqi's Sunan Al-Kubra (No. 13434, 14754) and Mustadrak Al-Hakim (No. 2710).

Finally, it is also found in Sunan Darqutni (No.3781) too with more explicit wording.  Imam Shaukani [rah] has taken the hadith on same account.  He writes, "Similarly it is allowed for the husband to enter upon the wife [even if, it being] without her turn [to spend night with] and to come closer to her and touch her except the intercourse as in the Hadith of Aisha mentioned above."

Other than the phrase that the Prophet [saw] had the "strength of thirty men", nothing in these narrations suggest that he used to have sexual relations with all of them in one night.  That phrase, that the Prophet [saw] had the "strength of thirty men", are the words of a Companion [ra].  I would take Aisha's [ra] words over the words of a Companion [ra] - when it comes to intimate relations between the Prophet [saw] and his wives [ra] - since she was someone who would be visited.  The words of the wives [ra] of the Prophet [saw] take precedence over the words of a Companion [ra] when it comes to details about intimacy.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: muslim720 on July 26, 2016, 03:10:19 PM
But then as a clarification, we find more absurdity:

Narrated Aisha:
Magic was worked on Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect). Then one day he said, "O `Aisha do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I asked Him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other sat near my feet. The one near my head asked the other. What is wrong with this man?' The latter replied the is under the effect of magic The first one asked, Who has worked magic on him?' The other replied Labid bin Al-A'sam, a man from Bani Zuraiq who was an ally of the Jews and was a hypocrite.' The first one asked, What material did he use)?' The other replied, 'A comb and the hair stuck to it.' The first one asked, 'Where (is that)?' The other replied. 'In a skin of pollen of a male date palm tree kept under a stone in the well of Dharwan' '' So the Prophet (ﷺ) went to that well and took out those things and said "That was the well which was shown to me (in a dream) Its water looked like the infusion of Henna leaves and its date-palm trees looked like the heads of devils." The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "Then that thing was taken out' I said (to the Prophet (ﷺ) ) "Why do you not treat yourself with Nashra?" He said, "Allah has cured me; I dislike to let evil spread among my people."
Sahih al-Bukhari
Vol. 7, Book 71, Hadith 660

With regards to this narration, I had to do some research and even reach out to my teacher to get a better grasp before typing a response.

In one place I read that this narration does not enjoy the "multiplicity of chains of transmission that inspire a great deal of confidence in its historicity".  The author was leaning more on the side of this being a weak or fabricated report.  We know that while Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic book after the Qur'an, it is not entirely infallible.

The second point is that the Prophet [saw] would think he did something when he did not.  Was the matter related to religion or transmitting the deen?  No!  It was only limited to his marital affairs.  Therefore, to extrapolate this narration to insinuate that he [saw] was having a lapse when it came to the religion is nothing short of committing a fallacy.  Not to forget, the Prophet [saw] was infallible, especially when it came to passing on the Divine Revelation.

The third point, an extension of the second point, is that the Prophet [saw] himself recognized that something was off (for the lack of a better term), clearly indicating that the magic spell was indeed very weak and short-lived.  It happened and the Prophet [saw] noticed that something was not adding up.  Not only did he [saw] realize that there was a problem (you will realize this if you read other reports of the same account) but it was Allah [swt] who informed him of the situation and guided him to the cure.  This re-emphasizes what I said (that the matter was limited to his marital affairs only, not religious obligation) and it also proves that the spell did not affect his direct connection with Allah [swt].  It did not remove him or distance him from Allah [swt].

Is it problematic for a prophet [asws] to be affected by magic?  The Qur'an provides us the answer: "Then behold! Their ropes and sticks, through their magic, appeared to him as though they moved fast.  So Moses conceived fear in him.  But We said, “Fear not! Surely, you will have upper hand.  And throw what is in your right hand.  It will swallow what they have fabricated.  What they have fabricated is only a magician’s trick, and magician never succeeds no matter where his reach" (Qur'an 20:66-69)

The last point I wish to make (something my teacher shared with me) is a build-up upon the previous point.  This type of magic or "betwitchment" is understood as the one when someone plays a card trick on you or creates an optical illusion (like in the case of Musa [asws] where ropes were made to appear and move as snakes).  Your eyes play a trick on you until you quickly realize the farce.  Black magic exists but contrary to popular belief, it is quite weak.  The confusion arises - and the reason why people take exception against this narration - is due to the fact that they think that magic is super powerful and long-lasting which it is not.  No where does the narration suggest the long-lasting effect of this episode nor does it say anything regarding the seriousness of the spell except that the Prophet [saw] thought he had done something which he had not (and that too, it was limited to his marital affair, not religious).
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 26, 2016, 05:21:03 PM
Right because only kuffar are stubborn.
I have been saying all along that the Prophet would not do such a thing. For you imply that I am being stubborn may have been correct had I not known about the punishments ordered by the Prophet after wars and specifically after the Banu Qurayza incident. This event happened after all those incidents towards the tail end of the Prophet's life.
Perhaps my mistake was that I only highlighted the "he cut" narration when I should have quoted the "he ordered" narration and shown them to be different. But I am sure you would have found some syntax/linguistic/grammatical/etc argument to get around the crux of the matter.


Thanks for quoting me from beginning to end. I was going to do the same. The discussion started off with me saying the Prophet did not "cut" off someone's limbs (extremities since I have been corrected). Then we digressed into comparing the incident with the ayah and how close (or not) they were related. Then I ended with the Islam allows eye4eye punishment so cutting of their hands if that is what they did is ok, same goes for legs, eyes, etc.  I was highlighting the differences between the ayah and the narrations of the incident.
Of course, I said the Prophet was fair in his administration of the punishment of the crime. I did not say in his execution of the crime so pardon me for assuming that even the most basic Muslims knows the Prophet issued the verdicts but the execution of the verdict was carried out by Muslims.
All you have done in successfully showing is that you will dance and run around in circles rather than get to the main issue at hand - did the Prophet cut off their 'extremities' or not?


Whatever floats your boat, so you still insist that the verse is not applicable?

"even the most basic Muslims knows the Prophet issued the verdicts but the execution of the verdict was carried out by Muslims." So why did you question the narration by rejecting that the verse does not apply?

"Then I ended with the Islam allows eye4eye punishment so cutting of their hands if that is what they did is ok, same goes for legs, eyes, etc."

Right right, well unfortunately for you, feet were not cut off as retribution but as application of the verse which you questioned remember?

Quote
These people were not at war with the Prophet and hence this would not be applicable to them.

Quote
(6) Do you still stand by your statement that the verse does not apply to the one who steals and kills?
Yes.


Quote
Even though there is a clear edict to never mutilate the body of anyone including dogs, but this is in Sahih Bukhari so it must be right. What happened to the Rehmat-al-alameen?

I am sure you are talking about an edict only for the Prophet saws(which one btw?) and not for all muslims.


Quote
1) While Allah is surely Rahman and Raheem, He is also Hakam (Judge), Adl (Just), Hasib (Bringer of Judgement),  Mumit (Bringer of Death), Muntaqim (Avenger), Darr (Afflictor). The ayah is about those who fight against Allah and the Prophet and what punishment that are to receive for it. It is devoid of mercy but that does not mean Allah is devoid of mercy or the Prophet is devoid of it.
2) Yazid's example is not applicable simly because Imam Hussain had committed no crime. The Prophet was merciful to the family of the victims and at the same time Just to the criminals.

Going off-tangent as usual, how is one more merciful by not doing it himself.
" The Prophet was merciful to the family of the victims and at the same time Just to the criminals." So if the Prophet did it himself, he was NOT merciful to the families?? What are you even talking about?

And last but not least:
Quote
I have a problem with wrong punishment for wrong crime.

As I said, you dont care about the sanctity of Bukhari or al Kafi or the Prophet, all you care about is the sanctity of your ego. Wallahi, your deception is so obvious, I can't even believe you think you can pull this off. People like you who have no shame in propagating something they themselves do not believe, are also the hardest to discuss with despite their potential ignorance. But I know how to deal with your kind if you only have an atom of fear for Allah. Forget about everything I said, simply repeat this sentence:

Quote
May Allah curse me, ShiaMan, if I even for a split second in this discussion about this narration tried to argue that the punishment was not legitimate regardless of the punisher.

Let's see who is more truthful, you or Imam al Bukhari.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on July 27, 2016, 03:04:56 AM
Our discussion continued on ShiaChat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235039824-bukhari/?page=4#comment-2937373 (http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235039824-bukhari/?page=4#comment-2937373)

May Allah curse me, ShiaMan, if I even for a split second in this discussion about this narration tried to argue that the punishment was not legitimate regardless of the punisher.

And now for you to say:

May Allah curse everyone who thinks the Prophet carried out the punishment himself;
May Allah curse anyone who wrote/said/narrated this hadith alluding to the Prophet cutting of someone's hands and feet himself.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 31, 2016, 02:19:23 AM
I am quite shocked that you openly lie and curse yourself, but as I said, I will have nothing to stand on if you do curse yourself. May Allah indeed curse you if you lied.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on August 01, 2016, 10:20:19 PM
I am quite shocked that you openly lie and curse yourself, but as I said, I will have nothing to stand on if you do curse yourself. May Allah indeed curse you if you lied.
Wait you to say,

"May Allah curse everyone who thinks the Prophet carried out the punishment himself;
May Allah curse anyone who wrote/said/narrated this hadith alluding to the Prophet cutting of someone's hands and feet himself."
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on August 04, 2016, 04:32:31 AM
I am quite shocked that you openly lie and curse yourself, but as I said, I will have nothing to stand on if you do curse yourself. May Allah indeed curse you if you lied.
Wait you to say,

"May Allah curse everyone who thinks the Prophet carried out the punishment himself;
May Allah curse anyone who wrote/said/narrated this hadith alluding to the Prophet cutting of someone's hands and feet himself."

I never asked you to curse other people, if you want to play that game, you first:
I, ShiaMan, do not believe that the Prophet ordered the punishment as a result of the quoted verse, may Allah curse him if he did do that as a result of that verse, as he would disprove his prophethood and I would renounce my faith

And before you try to be smart this time, let me quote you a very important narration:
Quote
The oath that is Harām under all circumstances

The oath which is Harām under all circmstances and which one can never take is that of dissociating with Allah (S.w.T.) and His religion. For example a man says;

“If I do not perform this particular action, I shall be dissociated with Allah (S.w.T.) and His religion.” Such an oath is certainly Harām.

In the same way if one says:

“If I do not do this, I would have disbelieved in the Holy Prophet (S), or I would have rejected the Mastership of ‘Ali (a.s.), or I would become a disbeliever.” Such a vow is also Harām. It is Harām whether one wishes to prove the truth or to lay emphasis upon a fact.

The Holy Prophet (S) heard a person taking such an oath. He (S) said, “Woe be unto you, if you leave the religion of Muhammad (S) then which religion would you follow?”

The narrator says that the Holy Prophet (S) did not speak to this man till the end of his life.15

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.) informed Yūnus Ibn Zabyan:

“O Yūnus! Do not speak about dissociating from us in an oath. One who takes oath from it, whether for a true thing or a falsehood, he really becomes dissociated from us.”16
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on August 04, 2016, 11:58:05 PM
I am quite shocked that you openly lie and curse yourself, but as I said, I will have nothing to stand on if you do curse yourself. May Allah indeed curse you if you lied.
Wait you to say,

"May Allah curse everyone who thinks the Prophet carried out the punishment himself;
May Allah curse anyone who wrote/said/narrated this hadith alluding to the Prophet cutting of someone's hands and feet himself."

I never asked you to curse other people, if you want to play that game, you first:
I, ShiaMan, do not believe that the Prophet ordered the punishment as a result of the quoted verse, may Allah curse him if he did do that as a result of that verse, as he would disprove his prophethood and I would renounce my faith

Are you saying that Allah would curse the Prophet?

Way to avoid incriminating yourself by putting it on the Prophet.

How come no one is calling for kufr fatwa for what GreatChineseFall has said.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: MuslimK on August 05, 2016, 02:36:20 AM
Assalam O Alaikum,

I am sure there must be a response on all the objections raised by shias on some narrations of Sahih Bukhari.

plz share with me pdf file of such response, if you have that.


Jazak Allah.

Walaikum Salam,

Check this link - Response to a Shia website (answering-ansar now ShiaPen):
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/'unacceptable-repulsive'-narrations-in-bukharimuslim-answering-shia-website/msg2455/#msg2455
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on August 05, 2016, 04:42:21 PM
Are you saying that Allah would curse the Prophet?

Way to avoid incriminating yourself by putting it on the Prophet.

First of all, I am asking you to say it, I didnt say anything
Second of all, you might want to read up on what a conditional statement is:
Quote
69:44
Sahih International
And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings,

Sahih International
We would have seized him by the right hand;

Sahih International
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
If you are so certain about your stance that the Prophet could have never ever ordered this punishment in this specific case as a result of that verse, then he will NOT be cursed because the condition is not fulfilled. And he will not be cursed in any case, just your invocation of a curse will be recorded. Same if you say "if the one I know as al Mahdi was really Shaytan in disguise and caused nothing but corruption on earth, then may Allah curse him"
The invocation of the curse only follows if the condition applies, if you are certain about the condition not being true then it should not be a problem for you. Keep backpeddling but you have brought this on yourself.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on August 06, 2016, 01:34:14 AM
Are you saying that Allah would curse the Prophet?

Way to avoid incriminating yourself by putting it on the Prophet.

First of all, I am asking you to say it, I didnt say anything
Second of all, you might want to read up on what a conditional statement is:
Quote
69:44
Sahih International
And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings,

Sahih International
We would have seized him by the right hand;

Sahih International
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
If you are so certain about your stance that the Prophet could have never ever ordered this punishment in this specific case as a result of that verse, then he will NOT be cursed because the condition is not fulfilled. And he will not be cursed in any case, just your invocation of a curse will be recorded. Same if you say "if the one I know as al Mahdi was really Shaytan in disguise and caused nothing but corruption on earth, then may Allah curse him"
The invocation of the curse only follows if the condition applies, if you are certain about the condition not being true then it should not be a problem for you. Keep backpeddling but you have brought this on yourself.

The whole discussion has been about the Prophet chopping peoples 'extremities' himself or others doing it. Bukhari said the Prophet did it himself bu there are other narrations from Bukhari and others that clearly state others did it.
That was the discussion. You brought up verses and other narrations, etc.

To you, the alleged lover and follower of the Sunnah of Muhammad "And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings" is possible.
To us shias, the lovers of Muhammad (saw) a conditional statement where the Prophet may make up something false IS NOT POSSIBLE!

But I will not do tafkir on you. People on this group who claim to 'love the Prophet' are so good at tafkir so I will let them decide.

Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: GreatChineseFall on August 06, 2016, 01:50:17 AM
The whole discussion has been about the Prophet chopping peoples 'extremities' himself or others doing it. Bukhari said the Prophet did it himself bu there are other narrations from Bukhari and others that clearly state others did it.
That was the discussion. You brought up verses and other narrations, etc.

You can try as hard as you want but you know it wasnt like that. You attack a narration from Bukhari where extremities are cut off. I bring you a verse and ask you to be consistent, now if you were truthful about what you claim here the expected response would be something like:
"That is a verse talking about punishment that could be done by anyone, this narration talks about the Prophet, that's what I am having trouble with" Instead you came with your "errr, were those people causing corruption? Also opposite hands and feet and all limbs are different. What about eyes & iron-branding them?"

And you still didnt show the "edict to never mutilate" apparently applicable to only the Prophet. Can you show me this "edit"? I am still waiting

Quote
To you, the alleged lover and follower of the Sunnah of Muhammad "And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings" is possible.
To us shias, the lovers of Muhammad (saw) a conditional statement where the Prophet may make up something false IS NOT POSSIBLE!

But I will not do tafkir on you. People on this group who claim to 'love the Prophet' are so good at tafkir so I will let them decide.
Good so if its not possible for you, such a conditional statement will never take effect, so you can say it. Keep backpeddling
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Abu Muhammad on August 06, 2016, 04:15:47 AM
The whole discussion has been about the Prophet chopping peoples 'extremities' himself or others doing it. Bukhari said the Prophet did it himself bu there are other narrations from Bukhari and others that clearly state others did it.


Could you show us the hadiths in Bukhari (and other sahih hadiths as well) that clearly state others did it.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: ShiaMan on August 11, 2016, 11:19:52 PM
The whole discussion has been about the Prophet chopping peoples 'extremities' himself or others doing it. Bukhari said the Prophet did it himself bu there are other narrations from Bukhari and others that clearly state others did it.
read this thread brother from the beginning.


Could you show us the hadiths in Bukhari (and other sahih hadiths as well) that clearly state others did it.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Abu Muhammad on August 12, 2016, 01:12:12 AM
The whole discussion has been about the Prophet chopping peoples 'extremities' himself or others doing it. Bukhari said the Prophet did it himself but there are other narrations from Bukhari and others that clearly state others did it.
read this thread brother from the beginning.


Could you show us the hadiths in Bukhari (and other sahih hadiths as well) that clearly state others did it.

I did but I could not find as per what you said i.e. there are hadiths in Bukhari and others that clearly state others did it.

The closest I could find from your post is just this:

"The narration I initially quoted states, "he cut their hands and feet "
The other narrations state, "he ordered their hands and feet "

That is the issue and what I am saying is wrong about the narration. The Prophet did not himself cut the hands and feet and brand their eyes. He may have issued the edict to have this done but HE ABSOLUTELY DID NOT DO IT HIMSELF."


Since you wrote that there are narrations that clearly state others did it, you need to provide your evidence for that. So again, could you show us your claim that there are hadiths in Bukhari (and other sahih hadiths as well) which CLEARLY STATE others did it e.g. Abu Bakar or Umar or Anas etc.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Ebn Hussein on August 12, 2016, 07:14:20 AM
The Prophet was sent as a mercy to mankind. We do not believe in a limb-chopping, eye-gouging Prophet.

Narrated Anas:
The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron.
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 76, Hadith 9

Perhaps this is what ISIS and Taliban use to justify their violent behavior.


errr, were those people causing corruption? Also opposite hands and feet and all limbs are different. What about eyes & iron-branding them?

Your true colors are that you would rather protect the sanctity of Bukhari than the Prophet.

Point is IF people cause corruption in the lands then Islam gives the authorities the right to:

1. CUT OFF their legs and arms!

2. To crucify them

That's ISIS like enough to the kuffar whom you desperate Rafidis try to impress by attacking Bukhari not realising that there are barely any differences between the verse and the hadith (something the kuffar even figured out). You think iron-branding makes any difference? Ok, from now on go to any kafir and everybody else for that matter and proudly say:

I am a Rafidi, not an extremist Sunni-Wahhabi who is driven by the evil Bukhari and its leg chopping and Iron-branding narrations. I DO not condone Iron-branding, I am not a savage after all, I only condone - based on the Qur'an - the CUTTING OF limbs (alternative legs and hands), and CRUCIFIXION for people who do Muharibah. You know that punishment in which the victim is tied or nailed to a large wooden beam and left to hang for several days until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation, it's a form of punishment in Saudi Wahhabia you know. But Imam Zaman (3aj3aj) forbid that I believe in barbaric narrations that report incidents such as iron-branding, that's Bukhari dude, we Shias don't believe in these lies.
Title: Re: Need full response about shia objections on Bukhari
Post by: Ibn Yahya on August 13, 2016, 02:46:22 PM

Point is IF people cause corruption in the lands then Islam gives the authorities the right to:

1. CUT OFF their legs and arms!

2. To crucify them

That's ISIS like enough to the kuffar whom you desperate Rafidis try to impress by attacking Bukhari not realising that there are barely any differences between the verse and the hadith (something the kuffar even figured out). You think iron-branding makes any difference? Ok, from now on go to any kafir and everybody else for that matter and proudly say:

I am a Rafidi, not an extremist Sunni-Wahhabi who is driven by the evil Bukhari and its leg chopping and Iron-branding narrations. I DO not condone Iron-branding, I am not a savage after all, I only condone - based on the Qur'an - the CUTTING OF limbs (alternative legs and hands), and CRUCIFIXION for people who do Muharibah. You know that punishment in which the victim is tied or nailed to a large wooden beam and left to hang for several days until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation, it's a form of punishment in Saudi Wahhabia you know. But Imam Zaman (3aj3aj) forbid that I believe in barbaric narrations that report incidents such as iron-branding, that's Bukhari dude, we Shias don't believe in these lies.

Ahsant akhi. The Shi'is are total whores to Orientalists and people interested in Islam. They go on twitter and fb to show anything that makes sunnis look bad to their non muslim buddies so that they see them as the friendly pc "real" muslims at the expense of Sunnis living in the west.

Its very showing of the vain and dogmatic nature of contemporary Shii activism