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Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi

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muslim720

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2017, 01:53:04 AM »
Firstly it would be nice if you could discuss without the arrogance and ignorance. Secondly do educate yourself before discussing and debating. Try to understand and get to know. Be familiar by finding out. If you don't know what Imamah is and you don't want to know but are raised to criticise and condemn it or to mock it then this is what you get, arrogance and ignorance.

Brother, what I found was in a booklet; I only have a few booklets that highlight the main traditions in Al-Kafi (mostly dealing with usul).  If I were to find the entire volume, unabridged, like you find our texts online in many languages, I can present narration after narration that you would not know what to do with.  One narration and not a single satisfactory response.  I am waiting for brother whoaretheshia to invest some of his time in such narrations; he is failing miserably with our texts.  Wallaahi, if you personally - from your own desires - declare this hadith to be weak or rejected, I will never use it in a discussion again. 

The purpose of my exercise was to show you that we can play this game just as good as you, perhaps better than you.  Shias come with extreme arrogance and ignorance, and often I see the same people recycle the same arguments (to use against Sunnis) even when they have been utterly refuted.  So you must educate yourself with our standards first.  I am requiring the same from you which you require from me.

Lastly, as you may know, I am a frequent member of three Shia mosques in our area.  In one mosque, the imam - to my face - about 2 Muharrams ago, said that Imams (ra) are everything you imagine Allah (swt) to be but a "notch lower".  He said that Imams (ra) possess all attributes of Allah (swt) but a "notch lower", or to a lower degree.  And his mosque is the most moderate of the three I visit.  He is my teacher; I respect him because he is honest about his beliefs.  It bothers me, for example, when I see Shia debaters (like the clown in UK, Zain, at Speakers Corner) talk about "three positions" regarding belief in Imamah. 

muslim720

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2017, 01:56:10 AM »
Muslim720 This hadith become problematic when you believe an Imam can received revelation which is binding on the entire ummah to accept.

Exactly, and so when the narration says, "they are not prophets", it just becomes semantics.  In other words, they are not prophets but they can receive revelation and share the same status as the Prophet (saw).  Couple with this fact the belief that they know their hour of death and have knowledge of the past, present and future and you have a quagmire.

iceman

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2017, 02:36:34 PM »
This isn’t a job position where he was demoted or promoted. Your premise would mean that every prophet was either an Imam or non Imam & for this to change they were either promoted or demoted.

Come on, I'm sure you can do better than that. Done duck and five and no ifs and buts.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2017, 03:04:35 PM »
Come on, I'm sure you can do better than that. Done duck and five and no ifs and buts.

The irony.

I answered your question & pointed out the fallacies in your logic & your reply is an irrelevant childish response that addressed nothing on the topic or my post or even your own question.


iceman

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2017, 04:21:03 PM »
The irony.

I answered your question & pointed out the fallacies in your logic & your reply is an irrelevant childish response that addressed nothing on the topic or my post or even your own question.

Come on, start talking like an adult. Abraham was tried by his Lord, after he was tried Abraham was made an Imam of the people. He wasn't an Imam before he was tried. Surely Imamah is from Allah hand he alone chooses and selects Imams. One example is more than enough for the intelligent and intellectual. Now was he promoted? Or may be Abraham achieved another title/honour similar to Prophecy?

Don't be scared.No need to be frightened.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2017, 02:58:43 AM »
Come on, start talking like an adult. Abraham was tried by his Lord, after he was tried Abraham was made an Imam of the people. He wasn't an Imam before he was tried. Surely Imamah is from Allah hand he alone chooses and selects Imams. One example is more than enough for the intelligent and intellectual. Now was he promoted? Or may be Abraham achieved another title/honour similar to Prophecy?

Don't be scared.No need to be frightened.

No where does it say he was promoted or given another title similar to ‘prophecy’.

Hadrami

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2017, 04:40:25 AM »
Exactly, and so when the narration says, "they are not prophets", it just becomes semantics. 
It is just word playing, in reality shia imamah is the continuation of prophethood, but the difference is that it is not called prophethood. Like i said, they are qadiyani x 12 😁

 

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