TwelverShia.net Forum

Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

muslim720

Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« on: December 01, 2017, 06:13:22 AM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
As you may all remember, in another topic titled "Exploring Al-Kafi", I mentioned that I was able to get my hands on small booklets that contain narrations from Al-Kafi.  Today, I decided to browse through them and this one narration caught my attention.

Al Usul
The Book of Divine Proof

A group of our associates - Ahmad ibn Muhammad - al-Husayn ibn Sa'id - Abdullah ibn Bahr - Ibn Muskan - 'Abdu 'r-Rahman ibn Abi 'Abdillah that Muhammad ibn Muslim said: "I heard Abu 'Abdillah (pbuh) say: 'The Imams are of the station of the Messenger of Allah (pbuhahp), except (in) that they are not prophets and (in that) they are not allowed (the same number of) wives which were allowed to the Prophet (pbuhahp).  However, apart from this, they are in it (other matters) of the station of the Messenger of Allah (pbuhahp).' "

So Imams (ra) were not prophets and could not have the same number of wives, as the Prophet (saw), but in all other matters, they are of the station of the Messenger (saw) of Allah.



Hadrami

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 01:54:03 PM »
read this bro - http://www.twelvershia.net/2013/04/05/the-imamah-of-the-shia-a-hidden-call-for-the-continuation-of-prophet-hood/

I know how you hate qadiyani, thats why sometime i dont understand how you can be a bit lenient sometime with shia who in reality believe in 12 "prophets". Shia is like 12x worse than qadiyani 😁

fgss

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 02:18:29 PM »
Then what is meant by "they are not prophets"?
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

MuslimK

  • *****
  • Total likes: 241
  • +8/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 02:51:08 PM »
Walaikum Salam,

Usually they say their Imams are superior to all Prophets except the last Prophet (saw) but they don't mention if they are lower or equal to the last Prophet (saw). Now this narration you found explains this part.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

muslim720

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2017, 08:04:43 AM »
I know how you hate qadiyani, thats why sometime i dont understand how you can be a bit lenient sometime with shia who in reality believe in 12 "prophets". Shia is like 12x worse than qadiyani 😁

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
You know me very well!  Yes, I cannot stand Qadianis; it is also true I am far more lenient with Shias.  Honestly, Shias are Muslims, albeit upon misguidance, and while they accuse our scholars of hiding the "ugliness" of our madhhab from us - in other words, we blindly follow without knowing the "truth" - I think it applies more to them than any other group.  In fact, it only applies to them. 

muslim720

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2017, 08:06:38 AM »
Usually they say their Imams are superior to all Prophets except the last Prophet (saw) but they don't mention if they are lower or equal to the last Prophet (saw). Now this narration you found explains this part.

Great point!

MuslimAnswers

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 10:15:29 AM »
Walaikum Salam,

Usually they say their Imams are superior to all Prophets except the last Prophet (saw) but they don't mention if they are lower or equal to the last Prophet (saw). Now this narration you found explains this part.

It would be a worthwhile exercise to see how their "12 Infallibles" live up to the essential qualities of Prophets in general as elucidated by our scholars. Like right off we know they don't have the qualities of Sidq, Tableegh and Amaanah and I am sure a lot can be written about this if we put our minds to it.

iceman

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 10:55:02 PM »
Firstly it would be nice if you could discuss without the arrogance and ignorance. Secondly do educate yourself before discussing and debating. Try to understand and get to know. Be familiar by finding out. If you don't know what Imamah is and you don't want to know but are raised to criticise and condemn it or to mock it then this is what you get, arrogance and ignorance.

Rationalist

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 11:24:36 PM »
Firstly it would be nice if you could discuss without the arrogance and ignorance. Secondly do educate yourself before discussing and debating. Try to understand and get to know. Be familiar by finding out. If you don't know what Imamah is and you don't want to know but are raised to criticise and condemn it or to mock it then this is what you get, arrogance and ignorance.

Yes one can try to defend this hadith, but I am going to add something which will leave the 12er Shia defenseless. The only way out is would be disagree with the 12er Shia zakir which authenticated a hadith in regards to wahi and imams.

Rationalist

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2017, 11:27:13 PM »
Muslim720 This hadith become problematic when you believe an Imam can received revelation which is binding on the entire ummah to accept.

Refer to the 27 min mark.
Here is an example

Rationalist

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2017, 11:29:54 PM »
Here is the hadith mentioned by the 12er Shia scholar above.

Alamah al-Majlisi records:

إكمال الدين: بهذا الاسناد، عن أبان بن تغلب قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام:سيأتي في مسجدكم ثلاثمائة وثلاثة عشر رجلا - يعني مسجد مكة - يعلم أهل مكة أنه لم يلدهم آباؤهم ولا أجدادهم، عليهم السيوف، مكتوب على كل سيف كلمة تفتح ألف كلمة، فيبعث الله تبارك وتعالى ريحا فتنادي بكل واد: هذا المهدي يقضي بقضاء داود وسليمان عليهما السلام لا يريد عليه بينة.
Ikmal al-Din: Through this chain, from Aban b. Taghlib:

Abu ‘Abd Allah, peace be upon him, said: “There will be in your mosque, that is the mosque of Kufa, 313 men. The people of Makkah will know that they (i.e. the 313 men) are not descended from their (i.e. the Makkans’) fathers and ancestors. They (i.e. the 313 men) will have swords; on each sword will be inscribed a statement which will open one thousand (other) statements. Then, Allah the Most Blessed and the Most High will send a wind which will call in every valley: ‘This is the Mahdi.’ He will judge with the judgment of Dawud and Sulayman, peace be upon them both: he will not demand for evidence on it.”


Here is the commentary of the hadith.

Apart from prophets, messengers, and some other righteous people, our Creator also sends wahy to Imams:

وجعلناهم أئمة يهدون بأمرنا وأوحينا إليهم فعل الخيرات وإقام الصلاة وإيتاء الزكاة وكانوا لنا عابدين
And We appointed them Imams, guiding by Our Command, and We sent wahy to them to do good deeds, and to keep up al-salat, and to pay al-zakat. And, they were worshippers of Us.43

It is indeed notable that the receipt of the wahy has been explicitly linked with their office of Imamah in this instance. This establishes absolutely that a true Imam too receives some wahy from Allah. Of course, al-Mahdi is an Imam “sent” by Him from the offspring of Ibrahim, Isma’il, Muhammad and ‘Ali, ‘alaihim al-salam

iceman

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 03:40:53 PM »
Yes one can try to defend this hadith, but I am going to add something which will leave the 12er Shia defenseless. The only way out is would be disagree with the 12er Shia zakir which authenticated a hadith in regards to wahi and imams.

Forget about adding and subtracting or accepting or rejecting the hadith/narration, lets start of with;
What is Imamah or Imamath?

Allow me to quote this;

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." (Surah Al-Baqara, 124)"

Now we all know what Abraham was before he was tried by his Lord. After he was tried/tested Allah, yes Allah made Abraham an IMAM to the nations. Would you mind telling me if Abraham was promoted, demoted or given another title by his Lord?☺

No ifs or but, no this, that or the other, no gimmicks or tactics, no running around or jumping from one place to another. Just a simple and straight forward answer.

Was Abraham promoted, demoted or given a similar title? Is Imamah from Allah or not?😊

Rationalist

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2017, 06:23:55 PM »
Your reply has nothing to do with the topic.
Anyway, I don't have an issue believing that the verse is referring to Ahlul Bayt inheriting the Imamate. The problem lies when you tell me its only inherited for a dozen men.

iceman

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2017, 09:02:06 PM »
Your reply has nothing to do with the topic.
Anyway, I don't have an issue believing that the verse is referring to Ahlul Bayt inheriting the Imamate. The problem lies when you tell me its only inherited for a dozen men.

😊 Is that it?😃 Well this went down very quickly. Ok. Anyone else want to give it a try?😊 You and I both know it most certainly is related to the topic. Imamah.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2017, 09:10:27 PM »
So Ibrahim was a prophet who was awarded leadership/imamah over the people? He was awarded rulership? Whats this got to do with shia imamate?

iceman

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2017, 09:13:46 PM »
Don't go around cherry picking when it comes to bushes. Speak about principles and pillars of belief and faith.

We believe that Caliphate and Imamah are Allah chosen, just like Nabuwah and Risalat,    and he (Allah) chooses Calipha and Imam just like Messenger and Prophet.

Just as simple as that. Your belief and faith is man made and depends on incidents and individuals. Your Deen begins with the Prophet (s) and ends with him. After the Prophet (s) you slip away totally into a different direction.

Are the Shaykhain that important and what they did, got involved and got up to? Just admit it. Save your deen rather than fiddling about with it.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2017, 09:54:41 PM »
^^that answer was so unrelated to my post.


zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2017, 09:57:09 PM »
A major problem with al kafi is that so little is known about the author al kulayni. The bio’s of him in shia literature are so short. How can the main book of hadith be authored by someone who so little is known about him?

iceman

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2017, 11:38:35 PM »
So Ibrahim was a prophet who was awarded leadership/imamah over the people? He was awarded rulership? Whats this got to do with shia imamate?

You didn't answer my question. Abraham was a Prophet, when tried by his Lord he was made Imam of the people. Was Abraham promoted, demoted or given a title/grade of a similar nature, value and responsibility?

Come on, it's not too difficult, is it?

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Problematic Narration in Al-Kafi
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2017, 11:52:29 PM »
You didn't answer my question. Abraham was a Prophet, when tried by his Lord he was made Imam of the people. Was Abraham promoted, demoted or given a title/grade of a similar nature, value and responsibility?

Come on, it's not too difficult, is it?

This isn’t a job position where he was demoted or promoted. Your premise would mean that every prophet was either an Imam or non Imam & for this to change they were either promoted or demoted.


 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
1234 Views
Last post November 24, 2014, 06:54:28 PM
by Hani
1 Replies
969 Views
Last post August 29, 2016, 04:42:13 AM
by Sheikh
4 Replies
681 Views
Last post April 21, 2015, 09:34:49 PM
by Hani
1 Replies
416 Views
Last post May 06, 2015, 09:09:21 PM
by Hani