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Sunni explanation of this hadith

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Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Sunni explanation of this hadith
« on: November 04, 2017, 08:54:54 AM »
What is the Sunni explanation of this hadith?

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.

https://sunnah.com/muslim/32/58
محور المقاومة والممانعة


Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2017, 01:35:34 PM »
http://www.twelvershia.net/2013/11/14/response-to-maula-ali-as-considered-abu-bakr-and-umar-to-be-the-accursed-ones/

Who wrote that? What a weak response.

1) On Abbas accusing Ali (as) of sin and treachery, that is hujjah upon you lot not us Shi'a. This hadith is sahih for you only, not for us. All this proves is how your sahabah would think about each other.

2) If you think hadith is illogical, because a person was seeking justice from a sinful man, then you admit Umar is a liar and an accuser for claiming such things about Imam Ali (as). What would be my position according to you Sunnis if I read up on one of Umar's judgements, and I concluded by saying; in this particular case Umar was treacherous and a sinner.

How would your regard me? An innovator?

3) As for the Dad-Son example, that is indeed a lame excuse. The hadith is in context of Abu Bakr and Umar's judgements, so Imam Ali (as) according to this hadith thought Abu Bakr is treacherous in regards to Islamic Law, not a school exam. Lol.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Abu Muhammad

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2017, 08:45:24 PM »
Umar said from the hadith:

"Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah).” (Referring to Hadrat ‘Abbas), he said: “You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to ‘Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: ‘The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said: We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity.’ So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (Abu Bakr) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you (Ali and Abbas) thought me (Umar) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property."

If you are trying to argue through that hadith that Ali thought Abu Bakr and Umar as liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest, you actually have no case. If indeed Ali thought so, as exerted by many Twelvers, it was his initial thought and later admitted his mistake as proven from the hadith itself. Here is the proof:

We can read from the earlier part of the hadith, when Umar posed the very same hadith about prophets do not have any heirs, Ali (as well as Al-Abbas) admitted to the authencity of the hadith by saying "yes".

"Umar said: “Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They said: “Yes.” Then he turned to Abbas and ‘Ali and said: “I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They (too) said: “Yes.

By agreeing that the hadith is authentically from Rasulullah (saw) shows Ali's admission to the fact that Abu Bakr was speaking the truth. That is evident enough for his initial thought of Abu Bakr (as well as Umar) as liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest was a mistake by him.

Link

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2017, 09:06:47 PM »
It's a contradiction. On one hand, Sunnis say Abu Baker and Umar were stated to be the best after the Prophets by the Prophet and that Imam Ali knew that, but at the same time, say Ali thought they were sinful, liars and treacherous at one point.

It's a huge contradiction.

Your supposed authentic hadiths are just not consistent.

It's the same with Fatima getting angry with Abu Baker at any point. If she got angry, she is assuming injustice on Abu Baker part. If Abu Baker was preached to be the figure he was, Fatima being the Leader of the women of paradise, would have assumed good of him and not assume the worst assumption.

But the fact she got angry shows an essential contradiction.



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

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Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2017, 09:58:48 PM »
Actually, Abbass said those words to Ali as the narration states as they had dispute. Ali never said those words to Abubakr or Omar. Read the link brother Abu Muhammad shared.

As for the Shia footballer playing his usual tactic that it is not hujjah for him and it is not Sahih for them etc. Firstly, nobody is interested or said whether it is Hujjah for you or not, you asked for the Sunni explanation about the a Sunni narration and you were given.

As for some Sahaba in some situations getting angry with each other then it is natural for human beings to get angry in a dispute.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Abu Muhammad

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2017, 01:57:06 AM »
It's a contradiction. On one hand, Sunnis say Abu Baker and Umar were stated to be the best after the Prophets by the Prophet and that Imam Ali knew that, but at the same time, say Ali thought they were sinful, liars and treacherous at one point.

It's a huge contradiction.

Your supposed authentic hadiths are just not consistent.
@Link,

I'm arguing from Twelvers perspective (see the blue wordings below). Maybe I wasn't clear enough in stressing that plus this thread is about Sunni perspective.

Sorry for the confusion.

If you [edited: i.e. Twelvers] are trying to argue through that hadith that Ali thought Abu Bakr and Umar as liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest, you actually have no case. If indeed Ali thought so, as exerted by many Twelvers, it was his initial thought and later admitted his mistake as proven from the hadith itself. Here is the proof:
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 02:02:34 AM by Abu Muhammad »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2017, 04:21:26 AM »
Umar said from the hadith:

"Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah).” (Referring to Hadrat ‘Abbas), he said: “You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to ‘Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: ‘The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said: We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity.’ So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (Abu Bakr) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you (Ali and Abbas) thought me (Umar) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property."

If you are trying to argue through that hadith that Ali thought Abu Bakr and Umar as liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest, you actually have no case. If indeed Ali thought so, as exerted by many Twelvers, it was his initial thought and later admitted his mistake as proven from the hadith itself. Here is the proof:

We can read from the earlier part of the hadith, when Umar posed the very same hadith about prophets do not have any heirs, Ali (as well as Al-Abbas) admitted to the authencity of the hadith by saying "yes".

"Umar said: “Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They said: “Yes.” Then he turned to Abbas and ‘Ali and said: “I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They (too) said: “Yes.

By agreeing that the hadith is authentically from Rasulullah (saw) shows Ali's admission to the fact that Abu Bakr was speaking the truth. That is evident enough for his initial thought of Abu Bakr (as well as Umar) as liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest was a mistake by him.

You are arguing against the exact words of the hadith only after posting it in your post.

You only have two options: what Umar said was true or what Umar said was false.

Whether Ali changed his opinion or not, my point still stands, and as always I like to link it to modern scenarios, if I thought Abu Bakr was treacherous due to a disagreement I have with him on Islamic Law, what would be my status as per Sunnis?

Actually, Abbass said those words to Ali as the narration states as they had dispute. Ali never said those words to Abubakr or Omar. Read the link brother Abu Muhammad shared.

As for the Shia footballer playing his usual tactic that it is not hujjah for him and it is not Sahih for them etc. Firstly, nobody is interested or said whether it is Hujjah for you or not, you asked for the Sunni explanation about the a Sunni narration and you were given.

As for some Sahaba in some situations getting angry with each other then it is natural for human beings to get angry in a dispute.

Lol this is not a "Shi'a footballer tactic". If I am using a Sunni hadith to prove a point to Sunnis, that does not mean I accept the hadith as well. That is quite a laughable point.

Ali never said those words, Umar said this is how Ali thought of him and Abu Bakr. Either Umar was lying, or this is how Ali and Abu Bakr thought.

Yes, I asked for an explaination, and everything I got so far was not satisfactory.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Farid

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 10:15:54 AM »
@Zlatan

Yes, the Sunni view is that Omar did not accurately represent their view of Abu Bakr, even though that wasn't his intention.

Imagine the following hypothetical scenario. You and Link go to a respected shaikh to settle a religious dispute between you two. You tell him, "Shaikh, look at this blind bumbling fool that says that the Prophet (peace be upon him) made a mistake in prayer."

The Shaikh says, "To you, even Al Saduq was a blind bumbling fool! Even Al Tusturi is a blind bumbling fool!"

Notice that he is not making this claim because you have expressed such feelings towards those scholars, but rather, he is using your own words to describe major scholars in a way that you would never describe them due to your respect for them even though they hold the same opinion Link does.

So again, notice Omar's word choice. It doesn't come out of thin air. He is quoting the same insult used by Al Abbas. Inshallah this makes things clear.

Hani

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 10:25:27 AM »
Agree with the above. There is NO other way to explain Umars words that would make sense. The explanation given by the Shia makes no sense.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 12:13:08 PM »
@Zlatan

Yes, the Sunni view is that Omar did not accurately represent their view of Abu Bakr, even though that wasn't his intention.

Imagine the following hypothetical scenario. You and Link go to a respected shaikh to settle a religious dispute between you two. You tell him, "Shaikh, look at this blind bumbling fool that says that the Prophet (peace be upon him) made a mistake in prayer."

The Shaikh says, "To you, even Al Saduq was a blind bumbling fool! Even Al Tusturi is a blind bumbling fool!"

Notice that he is not making this claim because you have expressed such feelings towards those scholars, but rather, he is using your own words to describe major scholars in a way that you would never describe them due to your respect for them even though they hold the same opinion Link does.

So again, notice Omar's word choice. It doesn't come out of thin air. He is quoting the same insult used by Al Abbas. Inshallah this makes things clear.

No it does not make things clear, in fact I would agree that if I did say those words about Link, then I would be de-facto callin Saduq a bumbling fool, just in an indirect way.

If I advised someone and he didn't follow my advice, and he regretted it, and I tell you: "you see?! This is because you thought of me as a stupid idiot" that would be wrong as well. That is because he does not think of me as that, that is exaggerated speech.

If this was not the opinion of Imam Ali, then Umar shouldn't be so careless in his word usage, where he is "unintentionally"(?) accusing another person of what is at the very least fisq (in Sunnism) - in an exaggerated tone, making it even worse.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Farid

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 12:20:02 PM »
Quote
No it does not make things clear, in fact I would agree that if I did say those words about Link, then I would be de-facto callin Saduq a bumbling fool, just in an indirect way.

Indeed. However, you would stop calling Link a blind bumbling fool due to your respect to Al Saduq, which is why the shaikh would point this out.

Secondly, do keep in mind that Sunnis are bound by Ali's praise for Abu Bakr in other narrations, and we certainly put it above Omar's "representation" of Ali's opinion of Abu Bakr in this narration.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2017, 12:26:58 PM »
Quote
No it does not make things clear, in fact I would agree that if I did say those words about Link, then I would be de-facto callin Saduq a bumbling fool, just in an indirect way.

Indeed. However, you would stop calling Link a blind bumbling fool due to your respect to Al Saduq, which is why the shaikh would point this out.

Secondly, do keep in mind that Sunnis are bound by Ali's praise for Abu Bakr in other narrations, and we certainly put it above Omar's "representation" of Ali's opinion of Abu Bakr in this narration.

Yes I would stop doing that, but I would also regard myself as a sinner for indirectly calling Al-Saduq a bumbling fool.

But you are not ready to say Umar was wrong for exaggerating about what Ali thought of Abu Bakr, "in order to prove a point".
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Farid

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 01:05:33 PM »
I've said from the beginning that Omar was misrepresenting their views.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2017, 02:49:56 PM »
Umar said from the hadith:

"Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah).” (Referring to Hadrat ‘Abbas), he said: “You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to ‘Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: ‘The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said: We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity.’ So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (Abu Bakr) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you (Ali and Abbas) thought me (Umar) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property."

If you are trying to argue through that hadith that Ali thought Abu Bakr and Umar as liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest, you actually have no case. If indeed Ali thought so, as exerted by many Twelvers, it was his initial thought and later admitted his mistake as proven from the hadith itself. Here is the proof:

We can read from the earlier part of the hadith, when Umar posed the very same hadith about prophets do not have any heirs, Ali (as well as Al-Abbas) admitted to the authencity of the hadith by saying "yes".

"Umar said: “Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They said: “Yes.” Then he turned to Abbas and ‘Ali and said: “I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They (too) said: “Yes.

By agreeing that the hadith is authentically from Rasulullah (saw) shows Ali's admission to the fact that Abu Bakr was speaking the truth. That is evident enough for his initial thought of Abu Bakr (as well as Umar) as liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest was a mistake by him.

You are arguing against the exact words of the hadith only after posting it in your post.

You only have two options: what Umar said was true or what Umar said was false.

Whether Ali changed his opinion or not, my point still stands, and as always I like to link it to modern scenarios, if I thought Abu Bakr was treacherous due to a disagreement I have with him on Islamic Law, what would be my status as per Sunnis?

Maybe I'm not that clear in the previous post. What I'm trying to say was in a scenario where a Twelver insists that Ali did think of Abu Bakr and Umar as described in the hadith, you have no case to bring up since Ali himself admitted later what Abu Bakr had said is true. That's all.

Surely Sunnis believe what was said is not true. Same like what Al-Abbas said to Ali which is not true.

Link

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2017, 04:21:08 PM »
I've said from the beginning that Omar was misrepresenting their views.

Where did he get this impression from?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2017, 05:29:20 PM »
Umar said from the hadith:

"Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah).” (Referring to Hadrat ‘Abbas), he said: “You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to ‘Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: ‘The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said: We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity.’ So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (Abu Bakr) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you (Ali and Abbas) thought me (Umar) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property."

If you are trying to argue through that hadith that Ali thought Abu Bakr and Umar as liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest, you actually have no case. If indeed Ali thought so, as exerted by many Twelvers, it was his initial thought and later admitted his mistake as proven from the hadith itself. Here is the proof:

We can read from the earlier part of the hadith, when Umar posed the very same hadith about prophets do not have any heirs, Ali (as well as Al-Abbas) admitted to the authencity of the hadith by saying "yes".

"Umar said: “Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They said: “Yes.” Then he turned to Abbas and ‘Ali and said: “I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They (too) said: “Yes.

By agreeing that the hadith is authentically from Rasulullah (saw) shows Ali's admission to the fact that Abu Bakr was speaking the truth. That is evident enough for his initial thought of Abu Bakr (as well as Umar) as liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest was a mistake by him.

You are arguing against the exact words of the hadith only after posting it in your post.

You only have two options: what Umar said was true or what Umar said was false.

Whether Ali changed his opinion or not, my point still stands, and as always I like to link it to modern scenarios, if I thought Abu Bakr was treacherous due to a disagreement I have with him on Islamic Law, what would be my status as per Sunnis?

Maybe I'm not that clear in the previous post. What I'm trying to say was in a scenario where a Twelver insists that Ali did think of Abu Bakr and Umar as described in the hadith, you have no case to bring up since Ali himself admitted later what Abu Bakr had said is true. That's all.

Surely Sunnis believe what was said is not true. Same like what Al-Abbas said to Ali which is not true.

Well I am not that "Twelver who is insisting".
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Abu Muhammad

Re: Sunni explanation of this hadith
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2017, 06:07:03 PM »
You are arguing against the exact words of the hadith only after posting it in your post.

You only have two options: what Umar said was true or what Umar said was false.

Whether Ali changed his opinion or not, my point still stands, and as always I like to link it to modern scenarios, if I thought Abu Bakr was treacherous due to a disagreement I have with him on Islamic Law, what would be my status as per Sunnis?

Maybe I'm not that clear in the previous post. What I'm trying to say was in a scenario where a Twelver insists that Ali did think of Abu Bakr and Umar as described in the hadith, you have no case to bring up since Ali himself admitted later what Abu Bakr had said is true. That's all.

Surely Sunnis believe what was said is not true. Same like what Al-Abbas said to Ali which is not true.

Well I am not that "Twelver who is insisting".

Just saying it upfront so that "any insisting Twelvers other than you" do not come up with that argument...

 

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