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Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?

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Muhammad Tazin

Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« on: June 05, 2017, 08:30:41 PM »
As salamu alaikum,
Thanks for the latest article about Tarawih.
we know Abdullah ibn Umar(r.a.) had different rulings in several cases. Was he also in odd with praying tarawih in congregation in mosque, behind single Imam?
Shia websites porsted some narrations from Musannaf ibn Abi Shayba & Musannaf Abdur Razzaq  , which arising questions, those are-

أنبأ أبو نصر عمر بن عبد العزيز بن عمر بن قتادة الأنصاري أنبأ أبو عمرو بن مطر أنبأ أبو خليفة ثنا محمد بن كثير ثنا سفيان عن منصور عن مجاهد عن عبد الله بن عمر قال قال له رجل: «أصلي خلف الإمام في رمضان قال يعني بن عمر أليس تقرأ القرآن قال نعم قال أفتنصت كأنك حمار صل في بيتك».

أخرجه ابن أبي شيبة2/393 في المصنف وعبد الرزاق المصنف4/264 رقم (7742).
قال ابن أبي شيبة في المصنف 2/166
من كان لا يقوم مع الناس في رمضان
7714 حدثنا أبو بكر قال ثنا ابن نمير قال ثنا عبيد الله بن عمر عن نافع عن ابن عمر: أنه كان لا يقوم مع الناس في شهر رمضان . قال: وكان سالم والقاسم لا يقومون مع الناس .
7715 حدثنا وكيع عن سفيان عن منصور عن مجاهد قال: سأل رجل ابن عمر أقوم خلف الإمام في شهر رمضان ؟ فقال تنصت كأنك حمار

some says that, Ibn Umar(r.a.) insisting on memorizing al Quran oneself, but these narration seems he strongly disliked praying in Jamaat?!

Farid

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 09:23:38 PM »
Wa alaykum alsalam wa rahmatullah,

Yup, Ibn Omar held the view that praying nawafil at home is always better than in a masjid. He sounds a bit harsh right? Nevertheless, it isn't like he is referring to it as an innovation.

Hadrami

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 10:46:01 PM »
Shia thinks they will fool us into thinking taraweeh is Umar RA innovation :D Dont they find it very embarrasing that their version of imam stayed home & did taqiyya most of the time while fallible ibn Umar, ibn Abbas & others didnt need taqiyya & can go against "the tyrant" publicly?

Everytime they try to attack a sahaba, they always end up revealing their sad of a religion. Thats Shitism in a nutshell.

omar111

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 11:29:28 PM »
Hzt Umar himself never prayed the Tarawih prayers in his lifetime. He only ushered all the worshippers behind one Imam to gain reward for the same and visited the mosque everyday to supervise the same.
  Trawih was never intended to be prayed in a mosque, as it is a nafl prayer. People compelled Umar to make it official. But this is not a problem for us, as we believe in sunnat of khulfas.

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Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 04:57:45 AM »
Desperate Rawafidh use this athar/text not realizing that it is a hujjah (proof) against them and not for them, like this New age Rafidhi who tries to copy Yasser al-Khabeeth alot (he needs to work on the ugly Persianized tone of Khabeeth's Arabic though ...):



(notice how these mushrikeen mock the recitation of the Qur'an replacing it with donkey sounds - something Ibn 'Umar never said - yet these accursed pagans are the biggest clowns when it comes to the recitation of the Qur'an with their Iranian laughing stock of Ayatullats)

The miskeen in the clip calls it a "mufaja'ah kabirah" (big/shocking suprise), pulling out the Ibn 'Umar narration as if he has discovered something new, poor miskeen. Anyway here the reasons why the very existence of the Ibn 'Umar narration destroys many Shia myths:

  • It proves that nobody, especially the major Sahabah compromised the Deen for any worldly gain, look how strict Ibn 'Umar is with regards to the METHOD of praying the qiyam in Ramadan, would such a man abonden a so called asl/foundation of the Deen (the lie which is called Imamah/Wilayah of 12 semi-divine beings)?

  • It proves the freedom people enjoyed under the rule of the chief of the believers 'Umar bin al-Khattab (ra), Ibn 'Umar (ra) openly expressed his opinion and sometimes disagreed with his father so did non-family members of 'Umar including great members of Bani Hashim such as 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas (ra).

    • The narration proves that 'Umar did not force anybody, it was a matter of ijtihad i.e. some believed praying it at home whilst others believed in the jama'ah.


    In the end of the day Ibn 'Umar never called it a bid'ah and even if he did, what Rafida must understand is that Sunnis are neither Shias of Ibn 'Umar nor 'Umar himself, Sunnis have only one ma3sum and the reason Sunni strongly believe that Taraweeh is Sunnah is because (to the detest of Shias) it has a foundation in the Sunnah i.e. the Prophet (saws) prayed it for 3 whole nights with his Sahabah and only left due to his love for his Sahabah (when he said he fears that this prayer might become and obligation for them). Whatever the Prophet (saws) acted upon and did not declared haram/forbidden/abrogated afterwards stays Sunnah till for ever.

MuslimAnswers

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2017, 08:09:55 AM »
Wa alaykum alsalam wa rahmatullah,

Yup, Ibn Omar held the view that praying nawafil at home is always better than in a masjid. He sounds a bit harsh right? Nevertheless, it isn't like he is referring to it as an innovation.

I did hear a Maliki scholar mention that if a person knows that the Taraaweeh is being performed in congregation in the Masjid, it is better for him personally to perform his prayers at home. This was just a presentation of the ruling in the Madhab without getting into lengthy reasons, but perhaps there is a relation between the ruling and this narration.

Muhammad Tazin

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2017, 01:51:54 PM »
Ibn Umar(r.a.) was different in several opinions, as like-
- legality of Anal intercourse, [if I'm not wrong]
- not prohibiting women from going to mosque, while some people thought women got changed after the deimse of Rasulullah(S.A.W.) ; (A'ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) said in this regard. She is quoted to have said, sometime after the Prophet’s death: "If the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) would have seen what the women do now, he would have stopped them from coming to Mosques.")
_in Madina he called for the baiyyat of Yazeed , otherwise it would be a betrayal

But, there are some other references of Salaf, who indirectly suggested to not praying Tarawih in jamaat. like, here you can see in the posts, in this forum-
https://www.sahab.net/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&controller=topic&id=131268

and, I am also providing a page from the book- Mukhtasar Qiyam al Layl , pg 232


Hadrami

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 02:14:34 PM »
Trawih was never intended to be prayed in a mosque, as it is a nafl prayer. People compelled Umar to make it official. But this is not a problem for us, as we believe in sunnat of khulfas.


but the big question is, why did Rasulullah shallallahu alayhi wasallam prayed taraweeh in the masjid at all if it was never intended to be done there? It didnt happen just once. We know for a fact he said he stopped due to fear it would be made obligatory for others. Is there any other naration explaining a different reason?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 02:15:46 PM by Hadrami »

Farid

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 02:23:40 PM »
Shia thinks they will fool us into thinking taraweeh is Umar RA innovation :D Dont they find it very embarrasing that their version of imam stayed home & did taqiyya most of the time while fallible ibn Umar, ibn Abbas & others didnt need taqiyya & can go against "the tyrant" publicly?

Good point.

Hani

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2017, 07:17:57 PM »
If the Imams were always on Taqiyyah, can anyone tell me why they don't pray Taraweeh in Shia narrations? Taraweeh is literally a public act and the best opportunity to do Taqiyyah and get the Ajr for Nawafil :)
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

omar111

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2017, 11:25:42 PM »
Trawih was never intended to be prayed in a mosque, as it is a nafl prayer. People compelled Umar to make it official. But this is not a problem for us, as we believe in sunnat of khulfas.


but the big question is, why did Rasulullah shallallahu alayhi wasallam prayed taraweeh in the masjid at all if it was never intended to be done there? It didnt happen just once. We know for a fact he said he stopped due to fear it would be made obligatory for others. Is there any other naration explaining a different reason?
There are contradictory reports about this. Some report that Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it.
But what is established is that Prophet prayed alone for three nights and when he saw people gathering behind him, he discontinued and ordered them (So you people, offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer)
 5762 وقال المكي حدثنا عبد الله بن سعيد ح وحدثني محمد بن زياد حدثنا محمد بن جعفر حدثنا عبد الله بن سعيد قال حدثني سالم أبو النضر مولى عمر بن عبيد الله عن بسر بن سعيد عن زيد بن ثابت رضي الله عنه قال  احتجر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حجيرة مخصفة أو حصيرا فخرج رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يصلي فيها فتتبع إليه رجال وجاءوا يصلون بصلاته ثم جاءوا ليلة فحضروا وأبطأ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عنهم فلم يخرج إليهم فرفعوا أصواتهم وحصبوا الباب فخرج إليهم مغضبا فقال لهم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ما زال بكم صنيعكم حتى ظننت أنه سيكتب عليكم فعليكم بالصلاة في بيوتكم فإن خير صلاة المرء في بيته إلا الصلاة المكتوبة صحيح البخاري » كتاب الأدب » باب ما يجوز من الغضب والشدة لأمر الله

Muhammad Tazin

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2017, 10:08:21 AM »
Trawih was never intended to be prayed in a mosque, as it is a nafl prayer. People compelled Umar to make it official. But this is not a problem for us, as we believe in sunnat of khulfas.


but the big question is, why did Rasulullah shallallahu alayhi wasallam prayed taraweeh in the masjid at all if it was never intended to be done there? It didnt happen just once. We know for a fact he said he stopped due to fear it would be made obligatory for others. Is there any other naration explaining a different reason?
There are contradictory reports about this. Some report that Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it.
But what is established is that Prophet prayed alone for three nights and when he saw people gathering behind him, he discontinued and ordered them (So you people, offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer)
 5762 وقال المكي حدثنا عبد الله بن سعيد ح وحدثني محمد بن زياد حدثنا محمد بن جعفر حدثنا عبد الله بن سعيد قال حدثني سالم أبو النضر مولى عمر بن عبيد الله عن بسر بن سعيد عن زيد بن ثابت رضي الله عنه قال  احتجر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حجيرة مخصفة أو حصيرا فخرج رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يصلي فيها فتتبع إليه رجال وجاءوا يصلون بصلاته ثم جاءوا ليلة فحضروا وأبطأ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عنهم فلم يخرج إليهم فرفعوا أصواتهم وحصبوا الباب فخرج إليهم مغضبا فقال لهم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ما زال بكم صنيعكم حتى ظننت أنه سيكتب عليكم فعليكم بالصلاة في بيوتكم فإن خير صلاة المرء في بيته إلا الصلاة المكتوبة صحيح البخاري » كتاب الأدب » باب ما يجوز من الغضب والشدة لأمر الله

The main reason for stopping Tarawih in jamaat was- that he feared it might become compulsory for Ummah.

Hadrami

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2017, 03:40:58 PM »
but the big question is, why did Rasulullah shallallahu alayhi wasallam prayed taraweeh in the masjid at all if it was never intended to be done there? It didnt happen just once. We know for a fact he said he stopped due to fear it would be made obligatory for others. Is there any other naration explaining a different reason?
There are contradictory reports about this. Some report that Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it.

I think you missed my question bro. Regardless whether its a palm leaf made room, it is still done in the masjid. He shallallahu alayhi wasallam went out of his house to pray in the masjid & the 1 reason that we know of why he stopped was due to fear of it being made obligatory for his ummah. Is there a narration where he said "go to your house or dont pray in congregation"? We correctly question shia why would he use the word mawla which is ambigous & unclear if its about leadership, but have we asked ourselves why did he gave us an example of praying it in the masjid in the first place if its not suppose to be done there? Was this palm leaf room setup only during itikaf period? If it is then it answer my question on why he had to do it in the masjid even though he prefer to do it in the house.

omar111

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 09:07:34 PM »
but the big question is, why did Rasulullah shallallahu alayhi wasallam prayed taraweeh in the masjid at all if it was never intended to be done there? It didnt happen just once. We know for a fact he said he stopped due to fear it would be made obligatory for others. Is there any other naration explaining a different reason?
There are contradictory reports about this. Some report that Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it.

I think you missed my question bro. Regardless whether its a palm leaf made room, it is still done in the masjid. He shallallahu alayhi wasallam went out of his house to pray in the masjid & the 1 reason that we know of why he stopped was due to fear of it being made obligatory for his ummah. Is there a narration where he said "go to your house or dont pray in congregation"? We correctly question shia why would he use the word mawla which is ambigous & unclear if its about leadership, but have we asked ourselves why did he gave us an example of praying it in the masjid in the first place if its not suppose to be done there? Was this palm leaf room setup only during itikaf period? If it is then it answer my question on why he had to do it in the masjid even though he prefer to do it in the house.
It is a big supposition,bro, if we consider the outhouse of the Prophet as a mosque. The house of Prophet was adjacent to masjid e nabwi.So why would he conduct the congregation in his outhouse and not masjid e nabwi?
Did he ever conduct a farz congregation in his outhouse?
People usually construct an outhouse for prayers, so as not to disturb the people in house.
Prophet did Prohibit Trawih in congregation and so did Ibn Abbas and Imam Malik and some shafi scholars.
 فقال لهم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ما زال بكم صنيعكم حتى ظننت أنه سيكتب عليكم فعليكم بالصلاة في بيوتكم فإن خير صلاة المرء في بيته إلا الصلاة المكتوبة صحيح البخاري » كتاب الأدب » باب ما يجوز من الغضب والشدة لأمر الله
So you must observe prayer (optional) in your houses, for the prayer observed by a man in the house is better except an obligatory prayer
1429 حدثنا شجاع بن مخلد حدثنا هشيم أخبرنا يونس بن عبيد عن الحسن أن عمر بن الخطاب جمع الناس على أبي بن كعب فكان يصلي لهم عشرين ليلة ولا يقنت بهم إلا في النصف الباقي فإذا كانت العشر الأواخر تخلف فصلى في بيته فكانوا يقولون أبق أبي قال أبو داود وهذا يدل على أن الذي ذكر في القنوت ليس بشيء وهذان الحديثان يدلان على ضعف حديث أبي أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قنت في الوتر
الكتب » سنن أبي داود » كتاب الصلاة » باب تفريع أبواب الوتر » باب القنوت في الوتر
Ubaid bin al-Hassan reported that Umar Ibn Khattab gathered people behind Abi bin Ka’b and he used to lead them in 20 Rakah prayers,… but during the last ten days of Ramadhan, then Abi bin Ka’b used to stay in his home and offer his prayers there, while other people used to say that Abi bin Ka’b ran away”.
 وقال مالك وأبو يوسف وبعض الشافعية وغيرهم : الأفضل فرادى في البيت لقوله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - : ( أفضل الصلاة صلاة المرء في بيته إلا المكتوبة ) .
   صحيح مسلم » كتاب صلاة المسافرين وقصرها » باب الترغيب في قيام رمضان وهو التراويح
 “Malik, Abu Yusuf, some Shafi’i scholars and others say that it is better to pray it individually at home”
Sharh Sahih Muslim, Volume 6 page 39

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 04:57:48 AM »
The house of Prophet was adjacent to masjid e nabwi.So why would he conduct the congregation in his outhouse and not masjid e
عن عائشة – رضي الله عنها – : أن رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – صلى في المسجد ذات ليلة فصلى بصلاته ناس ، ثم صلى من القابلة فكثر الناس ، ثم اجتمعوا من الليلة الثالثة أو الرابعة ، فلم يخرج إليهم رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – فلما أصبح قال : ” قد رأيت الذي صنعتم ، فلم يمنعني من الخروج إليكم إلا أني خشيت أن تفرض عليكم . قال : وذلك في رمضان

[`A’ishah narrated: The Messenger (saw) prayed at the mosque one night and some people prayed behind him. Then he (saw) did similarly the next day and the number of people increased. On the third or fourth, people gathered but the Prophet (saw) never came out till morning, then he (saw) stood and addressed them saying: “I see what you’re doing and the only thing that prevented me from coming out to you was that I feared it may become a prescribed obligatory duty.” And that was in Ramadan. (Sunan al-Nasa’i al-Kubra)]

Quote
Prophet did Prohibit Trawih in congregation
This prohibition was out of fear that it might not become obligatory on people. It wasn't regarding unlawfulness of prayering taraweeh in congregation, since Prophet(saws) himself lead the prayer to people and he used to pray 8 rakah in Ramadhan. If it was prohibitory then he would have done so after the first 2 rakah itself, or at least the next day itself. Prophet(saws) didn't object the congregation at all for the days people prayed behind him, approx 33 units for three days. This proves the legality of praying Taraweeh in Jama'a.

This is also supported by the hadeeth of Ubay bin ka'ab(ra) you posted which shows that he didn't object in leading the congregation.

As for the issue of which one is better then, Most of the  knowledgeable scholars agree that Nawafil prayer at home is better. But better doesn't means the other is prohibited/unlawful to be prayed. Moreover, there are many Muslims who memorized just two or three Surah of Quran, or they didn't memorize any Surah,  such people prefer to offer prayer behind the Imam who at the least knows a good portion of Quran.

Also, what encourages them is this line of the Prophet(saws).

عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ ، قَالَ : صُمْنَا مَعَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ رَمَضَانَ ، فَلَمْ يَقُمْ بِنَا شَيْئًا مِنَ الشَّهْرِ حَتَّى بَقِيَ سَبْعٌ ، فَقَامَ بِنَا حَتَّى ذَهَبَ ثُلُثُ اللَّيْلِ ، فَلَمَّا كَانَتِ السَّادِسَةُ لَمْ يَقُمْ بِنَا ، فَلَمَّا كَانَتِ الْخَامِسَةُ قَامَ بِنَا حَتَّى ذَهَبَ شَطْرُ اللَّيْلِ ، فَقُلْتُ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ، لَوْ نَفَّلْتَنَا قِيَامَ هَذِهِ اللَّيْلَةِ ، قَالَ : فَقَالَ : إِنَّ الرَّجُلَ إِذَا صَلَّى مَعَ الْإِمَامِ حَتَّى يَنْصَرِفَ حُسِبَ لَهُ قِيَامُ لَيْلَةٍ ، قَالَ : فَلَمَّا كَانَتِ الرَّابِعَةُ لَمْ يَقُمْ ، فَلَمَّا كَانَتِ الثَّالِثَةُ جَمَعَ أَهْلَهُ وَنِسَاءَهُ وَالنَّاسَ ، فَقَامَ بِنَا حَتَّى خَشِينَا أَنْ يَفُوتَنَا الْفَلَاحُ ، قَالَ : قُلْتُ : وَمَا الْفَلَاحُ ؟ قَالَ : السُّحُورُ ، ثُمَّ لَمْ يَقُمْ بِقِيَّةَ الشَّهْرِ

[Abu Dharr reported: We fasted Ramadan with the Messenger of Allah (saw) and he did not lead us in the night prayers (i.e Qiyam) until there were seven days left of the month, then he led us in night prayers until one-third of the night had passed. Then, when there were six days left, he did not lead us. When there were five days left, he led us in praying the night until half that night had passed. At that point, I requested: “O Messenger of Allah (saw), why don’t you lead us for the rest of this night?” He (saw) answered me: “Worry not, If a man prays with the leader until he leaves, it will be counted as if he spent the whole night in prayer.” Then, when there were four days left, he did not lead us in the night prayers. When there were three days left he sent for his daughters and women, and gathered the people, and he led us in praying all throughout the night until we feared that we would miss “al-Falah”. He did not lead for the remainder of that month.” Dawud (one of the narrators) asked: “What is al-Falah?” I said: “The time of Suhur.” (Sunan al-Tirmidhi)]

Hadrami

Re: Was Ibn Umar(r.a.) against tarawih in jamaat?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2017, 05:08:12 AM »
The house of Prophet was adjacent to masjid e nabwi.So why would he conduct the congregation in his outhouse and not masjid e
عن عائشة – رضي الله عنها – : أن رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – صلى في المسجد ذات ليلة فصلى بصلاته ناس ، ثم صلى من القابلة فكثر الناس ، ثم اجتمعوا من الليلة الثالثة أو الرابعة ، فلم يخرج إليهم رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – فلما أصبح قال : ” قد رأيت الذي صنعتم ، فلم يمنعني من الخروج إليكم إلا أني خشيت أن تفرض عليكم . قال : وذلك في رمضان

[`A’ishah narrated: The Messenger (saw) prayed at the mosque one night and some people prayed behind him. Then he (saw) did similarly the next day and the number of people increased. On the third or fourth, people gathered but the Prophet (saw) never came out till morning, then he (saw) stood and addressed them saying: “I see what you’re doing and the only thing that prevented me from coming out to you was that I feared it may become a prescribed obligatory duty.” And that was in Ramadan. (Sunan al-Nasa’i al-Kubra)]


Yep, he shallallahu alayhi wasallam did it in the masjid, there is no doubt about it. I have never heard any other reason except the fear of it being prescribed as obligatory. Still wondering if anyone know any other reason.

 

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