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Exploring Al-Kafi

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muslim720

Exploring Al-Kafi
« on: August 01, 2017, 02:23:54 AM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
On Saturdays, I attend a Sufi dhikr gathering and on the way there, I pass by one of the largest (and most active) Shia mosques.  As is the case during this time of the year, I usually pass by the exit for the Shia mosque around Asr time so I pray Asr there.

This past Saturday, after praying Asr, as I was leaving the mosque, I noticed about 11 booklets marked for sale, each containing narrations (translated in English) from Usul Kafi regarding various chapter headings.  My joy knew no bounds as I rushed towards the closest ATM to withdraw money for the purchase.  With the exception of 3 booklets which were repeats, I purchased the remaining 8.

This project (to translate Al-Kafi and sell each volume as booklets) was undertaken by WOFIS or "World Organization for Islamic Services" based in Tehran, Iran.  These were published in 1978 and as you can imagine, the booklets are very dated (almost falling apart).  However, the content within them makes them well worth the money.  I had to pay $10 for each booklet but that's neither here nor there.

Right off the bat, as I flipped through the pages, many narrations stood out and since each one of these booklets can be read in one sitting, I have decided to go through each chapter heading and share all the interesting hadiths here.

Chapter on TAKING HOLD OF AS-SUNNAH AND THE EVIDENCES FROM THE BOOK OF ALLAH

A group of our associates (the booklet explains that every time Al-Kulayni uses the phrase "a group of our associates", he is quoting from Ja'far ibn Muhammad who quoted from al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn Faddal, one of them is, Abu Abdillah al-Husayn ibn Muhammad ibn 'Imran ibn Abi Bakr al-Ash'ari al-Qummi)

A group of our associates - Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid - his father - an-Nadr ibn Suwayd - Yahya al-Halabi - Ayyub ibn al-Hurr, as saying, "I have heard Abu Abdillah (pbuh) saying: 'Everything should be referred back to the Book of Allah (Qur'an) and as-Sunnah (the Prophet's utterances, deeds and unspoken approval).  Every tradition which is not in agreement with the Book of Allah is (nothing but) forge."

Muhammad ibn Isma'il - al-Fadl ibn Shadhan - ibn Abi 'Umayr - Hisham ibn al-Hakam and others - Abu Abdillah (pbuh) as saying:
"The Prophet while addressing at Mina (Mecca) observed: 'O people, every one of my tradition which you receive and which accords with the Book of Allah undoubtedly emanates from me.  And whichever of my tradition you receive and which is contrary to the Book of Allah, surely doesn't emanate from me.' "

These two narrations are interesting for the following reasons:
1.  Everything must be referred back to the Qur'an and Sunnah, much like what the Qur'an says in Chapter 4, verse 59: "O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination."

This makes "ulil amr", which almost every Shia believes to be the Imams (ra), not an absolute and infallible authority.  In fact, their authority is so limited that when a disagreement arises within us, we refer it to Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw).  So then what is the need for Imams (ra)?

2.  These narrations also weaken Imamah because "every tradition which is not in agreement with the Book of Allah is (nothing but) forge."  Therefore, any narration which speaks about the Imams (ra) knowing their Hour of Death, for example - and I will get to those narrations in due time - are forgeries as per Al-Kafi since such a belief is against what is written in the Book of Allah (swt).
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 02:26:19 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Hadrami

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2017, 06:40:30 AM »
if the publisher is connected to the regime, expect a heavily censored content or huge footnotes explaining tahrif, takfir and similar narrations or maybe it would be completely removed from the book

Mojtaba

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 11:40:44 AM »
These two narrations are interesting for the following reasons:
1.  Everything must be referred back to the Qur'an and Sunnah, much like what the Qur'an says in Chapter 4, verse 59: "O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination."

This makes "ulil amr", which almost every Shia believes to be the Imams (ra), not an absolute and infallible authority.  In fact, their authority is so limited that when a disagreement arises within us, we refer it to Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw).  So then what is the need for Imams (ra)?
Salamun Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatoh!

Dear brother, you should see the other verse which is in that Chpter, too. Allah says in the verse 83:
'When a report of safety or alarm comes to them, they immediately broadcast it; but had they referred it to the Apostle or to those vested with authority among them, those of them who investigate would have ascertained it. And were it not for Allah’s grace upon you and His mercy, you would have surely followed Satan, [all] except a few.'

So, we must refer the issues to 'Ulul Amr', too. But, unlike the issue of the Messenger that there is not any difference in it, there are discrepancies in the issue of Ulul Amr itself between Muslims, so that Allah did not mention them after the Messenger in the verse 59.

The Hadiths of Al-Kafi say that Imams are not like non-infallible scholars who err and say a thing which is contrary to Quran or Sunnah. So, every Hadith which is contrary to Quran or certain Sunnah, is not their saying and is either a fabricated Hadith or a Hadith that its narrator(s) has/have made a mitake in narrating the saying of Imam (peace be upon them).

2.  These narrations also weaken Imamah because "every tradition which is not in agreement with the Book of Allah is (nothing but) forge."  Therefore, any narration which speaks about the Imams (ra) knowing their Hour of Death, for example - and I will get to those narrations in due time - are forgeries as per Al-Kafi since such a belief is against what is written in the Book of Allah (swt).
Allah Ta'ala says: 'No soul knows what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it will die.' [31:34]

This verse says that no soul knows what it will earn tomorrow, but another verse [28:7] says that the mother of Moses (as) knew through the inspiration of Allah to her that she would reach to her son. Also, the verse says that she knew that her son would become an Apostle. So, if we believe that Imams know that when they die, this means that they know through the inspiration of Allah to them.
So, there is not any contariction between the Hadiths which say that Imams (pbut) know the time of their death, etc. , and Quran.

Best whishes!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 11:46:10 AM by Mojtaba »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 12:24:09 PM »
So, every Hadith which is contrary to Quran or certain Sunnah, is not their saying and is either a fabricated Hadith or a Hadith that its narrator(s) has/have made a mitake in narrating the saying of Imam (peace be upon them).
This point leads us to the question that, there must be Sunnah available for us, just like Quran, to know if saying of an Imam is contrary to Sunnah or not. If Sunnah itself is unavailable then, the point itself looses its validity.

So, the question is, Do Shias, have SAHIH Sunnah from Prophet(saws) for all major and important religious matters? If not then can they rely on Sunnah of Prophet(Saws) available in  Sunni books?  If not, then how will they know, whether saying of Imam is contrary to Sunnah of Prophet(saws) or not, in the sense to verify whether its fabricated or wherein a narrator made a mistake?

Hadrami

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 02:30:31 PM »
The Hadiths of Al-Kafi say that Imams are not like non-infallible scholars who err and say a thing which is contrary to Quran or Sunnah. So, every Hadith which is contrary to Quran or certain Sunnah, is not their saying and is either a fabricated Hadith or a Hadith that its narrator(s) has/have made a mitake in narrating the saying of Imam (peace be upon them).
well if imam never erred, according to shia scholars they said many things which were wrong & contrary to Qur'an & Sunnah due to taqiyya. So they intentionally erred and misled the ummah.

Hani

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2017, 05:49:54 PM »
The verse quoted actually back fires because it says in Arabic that among "Ulil Amr" are a subgroup who would know, meaning:

{But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known about it}

Which means not necessarily all Ulil-Amr would know how to deal with this. Which conflicts with infallibility and whatnot.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Mojtaba

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2017, 06:32:38 PM »
The verse quoted actually back fires because it says in Arabic that among "Ulil Amr" are a subgroup who would know, meaning:

{But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known about it}

Which means not necessarily all Ulil-Amr would know how to deal with this. Which conflicts with infallibility and whatnot.
Salamun Alaykum.

The translation is not accurate. The verse is as the folllwing:

But had they referred it to the Apostle or to those vested with authority among them, those of them who investigate would have ascertained it.

This verse does not mean that "Ulil Amr" are a subgroup. Ulul Amr are 12 person (as Prophet said that the number of Amirs and Caliphs is 12) that in time of Imamt of each of them, Muslims must refer their issues to them.

Hani

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2017, 06:43:18 PM »
I'm an Arab and I assure you the translation is accurate, in fact this is taken from "Saheeh international" which is the most accurate English translation of Qur'an to date. If the people referred the matter to those in authority from among them, then those of THEM who can draw correct conclusions would have known it. MEANING, among those in authority are THOSE who can draw correct conclusions, therefore a group from those in authority may not necessarily draw correct conclusions.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Mojtaba

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 07:41:40 PM »
I'm an Arab and I assure you the translation is accurate, in fact this is taken from "Saheeh international" which is the most accurate English translation of Qur'an to date. If the people referred the matter to those in authority from among them, then those of THEM who can draw correct conclusions would have known it. MEANING, among those in authority are THOSE who can draw correct conclusions, therefore a group from those in authority may not necessarily draw correct conclusions.
Sahih International is a Sunni oriented translation in which I have see many fanatic translations.

Where is the word 'can' in the verse?

Hani

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 07:55:31 PM »
لَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ

The word [can] is between brackets, added to make the meaning clearer, the word "Minhum" at the end signifies a group out of the whole.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

muslim720

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2017, 01:05:20 AM »
Salamun Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatoh!

Dear brother, you should see the other verse which is in that Chpter, too. Allah says in the verse 83:
'When a report of safety or alarm comes to them, they immediately broadcast it; but had they referred it to the Apostle or to those vested with authority among them, those of them who investigate would have ascertained it. And were it not for Allah’s grace upon you and His mercy, you would have surely followed Satan, [all] except a few.'

So, we must refer the issues to 'Ulul Amr', too. But, unlike the issue of the Messenger that there is not any difference in it, there are discrepancies in the issue of Ulul Amr itself between Muslims, so that Allah did not mention them after the Messenger in the verse 59.

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakathu,
Apples and oranges, brother!  One verse is a command upon believers and the other is in regards to confirming something (an incident to be specific) before spreading rumors.  I am sure you know the commentary of the verse.  If we were to take your analysis of verse 83, it would be as though you are saying that all matters must be referred to the Prophet (saw) and those in authority then what about Allah (swt)?

Quote
The Hadiths of Al-Kafi say that Imams are not like non-infallible scholars who err and say a thing which is contrary to Quran or Sunnah. So, every Hadith which is contrary to Quran or certain Sunnah, is not their saying and is either a fabricated Hadith or a Hadith that its narrator(s) has/have made a mitake in narrating the saying of Imam (peace be upon them).

Quite a predicament considering that it was compiled during the minor occultation of the 12th Imam.  My take home message from that chapter (and the preceding chapter) - and I can take pictures of all the narrations falling under that chapter and post them here for you - is that the Imams (ra) themselves urged people to refer everything back to the Qur'an and Sunnah.  That completely renders the concept of Imamah useless.

Quote
says that the mother of Moses (as) knew through the inspiration of Allah to her that she would reach to her son. Also, the verse says that she knew that her son would become an Apostle. So, if we believe that Imams know that when they die, this means that they know through the inspiration of Allah to them.

Again, apples and oranges!  Musa (asws) and his mother (asws) are far above those you refer to as Imams (ra).  First, as we have been saying for centuries, establish the credibility of your claims from the Qur'an and then we can proceed from there.  As for Musa (asws) and his mother (asws), the Qur'an testifies in their favor so we hear and we obey.  Is there anything for your Imams (ra)?

Quote
So, there is not any contariction between the Hadiths which say that Imams (pbut) know the time of their death, etc. , and Quran.

There is huge contradiction.  In fact, the entire thing portrays Imams (ra), at least Imam Hussain (ra), in negative light when we realize that he presented himself to death in Karbala, fully knowing his hour of death.  That is suicide to me, irrespective of how many circles you dance around that point.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Mojtaba

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2017, 02:42:45 PM »
لَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ

The word [can] is between brackets, added to make the meaning clearer, the word "Minhum" at the end signifies a group out of the whole.
Yes, it is added the verse for changing the true meaning of the verse. As I said, Saheeh international translation is a fanatic translation in some cases. Fore example, different Sunni translators have added the verb 'wash' that is before 'feet' in the brackets at least, but the fanatic translators of the Saheeh international have added it to the verse without any brackets!!!

Also, because the Alul Amr are a group (12 people, as Prophet said it) that all of them are not in a same time, the word 'Minhoom' has been used in the verse. 

Mojtaba

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2017, 04:31:31 PM »
Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakathu,
Apples and oranges, brother!  One verse is a command upon believers and the other is in regards to confirming something (an incident to be specific) before spreading rumors.  I am sure you know the commentary of the verse.  If we were to take your analysis of verse 83, it would be as though you are saying that all matters must be referred to the Prophet (saw) and those in authority then what about Allah (swt)?

Salamun Alaykum dear brother.

Brother, I am agree with you that the verse 83 talks about a specific thing, but brother it is a Khass (خاص، specific) verse which has an 'Amm (عام، general) meaning. Fore example, Allah says in the verse 59:7,

The spoils that Allah gave to His Apostle from the people of the townships, are for Allah and the Apostle, the relatives and the orphans, the needy and the traveller, so that they do not circulate among the rich among you; And take whatever the Apostle gives you, and refrain from whatever he forbids you, and be wary of Allah. Indeed Allah is severe in retribution.

This verse talks about a Khass [specific] thing [i.e., the spoils], but has an 'Amm [general] meaning. the rule of this verse does not includes only the issue about which the verse talks [i.e., the spoils]. We must  take whatever the Apostle gives us, and refrain from whatever he forbids us. Just like this, the verse 83 has a general meaning. Indeed, because we must generally refer our issues to Prophet and Ulul Amr, so that Allah said that we must refer the rumors to them. Yes, we must refer all of our issues to Allah (i.e., Quran), too; But because in this case [knowing that the rumors are true or false], the Book of Allah does not help the Muslims, Allah did not mentioned Himself in that verse.

Quite a predicament considering that it was compiled during the minor occultation of the 12th Imam.  My take home message from that chapter (and the preceding chapter) - and I can take pictures of all the narrations falling under that chapter and post them here for you - is that the Imams (ra) themselves urged people to refer everything back to the Qur'an and Sunnah.  That completely renders the concept of Imamah useless.

Dear brother, you are correct that the Al-Kafi was collected in the time of the occultation of Imam Al-Mahdi (as), but Al-Kafi of Al-Kolayni (ra) is a collection of the Hadiths which were collected in the books of the companions of the other Imams (as). So, there is not any predicaments. Imams used to encourage their companions to write their Hadiths. fore example, Imam As-Sadiq (as) said to one of his companions: Write, and spread your knowledge among your brethren. Then before you pass away, inherit your books to your son. Verily a critical time will come to the people where they won't find peace within themselves unless it's with their books. (Al-Kafi, V.1, P.52)

Dear brother, you have understand those Hadiths incorrectly. Those Hadiths means that the narrated Hadiths of Imams must be referred to the Quran and Sunna, not the clear sayings of Imams that a person has heard directly from them. Also it should be said that this referring is for the 'Ahaad Hadiths, not the Mustafeez or Mutiwateer ones. Also, I should say that there are Hadiths from Imams in which it is said that we must refer the 'Ahaad Hadiths to the certain Hadiths of Imams, too (for example, Wasa'il Ash-Shia'i, V.18, P.89). 

Again, apples and oranges!  Musa (asws) and his mother (asws) are far above those you refer to as Imams (ra).  First, as we have been saying for centuries, establish the credibility of your claims from the Qur'an and then we can proceed from there.  As for Musa (asws) and his mother (asws), the Qur'an testifies in their favor so we hear and we obey.  Is there anything for your Imams (ra)?

Brother, do you mean that the family of Prophet Moses (as) are far above than the family of the best of the creatures, i.e., Prophet Muhammad (sawaws)?!! I think you should prove your claim. Quran says that Allah has purified the Ahlul Bayt (as) with a thorough purification [for more details, see my posts in "Confused Shia considering becoming Sunni" thread]. But there is not such this saying about the mother of Moses (as). Prophet said that Quran and Ahlul Bayt never separate from each other. He also said about Imam Ali: Ali is with Quran and Quran is with Ali and they will not separate from each other until they come to me at the Pool.

Also see the ff Hadith about which At-Tirmidhi has said that it is Hasan:

Narrated Jabir:
"The Messenger of Allah (s) called 'Ali on the Day (of the battle) of At-Ta'if, and spoke privately with him, so the people said: 'His private conversation with his cousin has grown lengthy.' So the Messenger of Allah (s) said: 'I did not speak privately with him, rather Allah spoke privately with him.'"

There is huge contradiction.  In fact, the entire thing portrays Imams (ra), at least Imam Hussain (ra), in negative light when we realize that he presented himself to death in Karbala, fully knowing his hour of death.  That is suicide to me, irrespective of how many circles you dance around that point.
Dear brother, if Imam Al-Husain (as) knew the time of his martyrdom, this means that he knew what Allah has written for him in the Preserved Tablet [Al-Lawh Al-Mahfooz]. Imam Al-Husain (as) couldn't chain what was read in the Preserved Tablet. So, his doing has no relation to the suicide.

Best wishes!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 04:42:16 PM by Mojtaba »

Mojtaba

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2017, 05:11:03 PM »
well if imam never erred, according to shia scholars they said many things which were wrong & contrary to Qur'an & Sunnah due to taqiyya. So they intentionally erred and misled the ummah.
Taqiyya is a Qoranic concept and saying a wrong thing contrary to Qur'an & Sunnah due to it can not be mentioned as mistake. Allah says:

3:28
The faithful should not take the faithless for allies instead of the faithful, and Allah will have nothing to do with those who do that, except when you are wary of them, out of caution. Allah warns you to beware of [disobeying] Him, and toward Allah is the return.

Also, Taqiyya is one of the reasons that why Imams said that the people must refer the 'Ahaad Hadiths of them to Quran, certain Sunnah and their certain Hadiths.

Hani

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2017, 08:11:31 PM »
لَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ

The word [can] is between brackets, added to make the meaning clearer, the word "Minhum" at the end signifies a group out of the whole.
Yes, it is added the verse for changing the true meaning of the verse. As I said, Saheeh international translation is a fanatic translation in some cases. Fore example, different Sunni translators have added the verb 'wash' that is before 'feet' in the brackets at least, but the fanatic translators of the Saheeh international have added it to the verse without any brackets!!!

Also, because the Alul Amr are a group (12 people, as Prophet said it) that all of them are not in a same time, the word 'Minhoom' has been used in the verse. 

Sorry, that doesn't sound right, you saying it's "minhum" because they're not all at the same time isn't clear linguistically. It's explicitly saying that "Those who draw correct conclusions from among them (Ulil-Amr) would know it}

The exception of "from among them" is for those of authority who have been referred to. MEANING, If you refer it to those in authority, then those among them who can draw the conclusions will know what to do. This means a group of them may not know what to do.

Quote
Taqiyya is a Qoranic concept and saying a wrong thing contrary to Qur'an & Sunnah due to it can not be mentioned as mistake. Allah says

No it isn't Qur'anic, the Taqiyyah of the Qur'an is VERY different than your Imam's Taqiyyah.

Feel free to continue this relevant thread with me so I can prove to you clearly it isn't Qur'anic or even religious:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/divine-guides-don't-misguide-people!/msg16259/#msg16259
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimK

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Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2017, 09:04:14 PM »
So a "divine guide" misguiding the people is a Quranic concept?









« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 09:05:24 PM by MuslimK »
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

muslim720

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2017, 01:22:58 AM »
Salamun Alaykum dear brother.

Brother, I am agree with you that the verse 83 talks about a specific thing, but brother it is a Khass (خاص، specific) verse which has an 'Amm (عام، general) meaning.

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakathu,
Glad that we agree on that point.  And since we have agreed there is no need for further explanation saying, "but brother" so on and so forth.  You compared two very different verses.

Quote
Fore example, Allah says in the verse 59:7,

The spoils that Allah gave to His Apostle from the people of the townships, are for Allah and the Apostle, the relatives and the orphans, the needy and the traveller, so that they do not circulate among the rich among you; And take whatever the Apostle gives you, and refrain from whatever he forbids you, and be wary of Allah. Indeed Allah is severe in retribution.

I am amazed that you quoted this verse.  For years, talking to Shia brothers, I had started to believe that this verse is no where in their repertoire.  This verse - not to go off topic - stands contrary to a major Shia belief.  It forbids fay from having individual owners or being inherited because it says, "so that they do not circulate among the rich among you".  In other words, fay cannot be under the sole ownership of one (or a group of) individual(s) and Fadak falls under fay.  Anyways, that was neither here nor there.

Quote
Dear brother, you have understand those Hadiths incorrectly. Those Hadiths means that the narrated Hadiths of Imams must be referred to the Quran and Sunna, not the clear sayings of Imams that a person has heard directly from them.


Fair enough!  On the surface this seems like a sound point.  While I have always had tremendous respect for Shia texts, I see holes in this argument.  Al-Kafi is the most important book of hadith among Shias and what other way is there to preserve hadiths but to narrate them?  Do you have a book that directly quotes the Imams (ra)?  Nahjul Balagha, although not a book of hadith, allegedly quotes Imam Ali (ra) without a chain.  A chainless narration (or volume) cannot be taken seriously.  So what are we left with?  Narrated hadiths!  And what did the Imam (ra) suggest in case of narrated hadiths?  To refer them back to the Qur'an and Sunnah.  I do not know if you understood my point but the way I see it, I am still led to believe that there is no need for Imamah if the Qur'an and Sunnah are sufficient, or "kafi".

Quote
Brother, do you mean that the family of Prophet Moses (as) are far above than the family of the best of the creatures, i.e., Prophet Muhammad (sawaws)?!!

I never said that the family of Musa (asws) is above the family of the Prophet (saw).  What I said was in regards to Musa (asws) and his mother (asws).  And I do not have to prove it to you because you already narrated their story found in the Qur'an.

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Quran says that Allah has purified the Ahlul Bayt (as) with a thorough purification

That "purification" - exact word - is also used in the Qur'an for other than just Ahlul Bayt (ra).  So what is your point now?

Quote
Also see the ff Hadith about which At-Tirmidhi has said that it is Hasan:

Narrated Jabir:
"The Messenger of Allah (s) called 'Ali on the Day (of the battle) of At-Ta'if, and spoke privately with him, so the people said: 'His private conversation with his cousin has grown lengthy.' So the Messenger of Allah (s) said: 'I did not speak privately with him, rather Allah spoke privately with him.'"

Da'eef, not hasan: https://muflihun.com/tirmidhi/46/3726

Quote
Dear brother, if Imam Al-Husain (as) knew the time of his martyrdom, this means that he knew what Allah has written for him in the Preserved Tablet [Al-Lawh Al-Mahfooz]. Imam Al-Husain (as) couldn't chain what was read in the Preserved Tablet. So, his doing has no relation to the suicide.

Fine!  Allow me to apply this argument to the 12th Imam.  As far as I am concerned, he was never born but I am sure within Shia Islam, there is a year for his birth (if not documented in texts at least our Shia brothers have some year that they attribute to his birth).  Let us say he was born in the year 950.  Thus far, it is believed that he is alive.  So he is alive in 2017.  Therefore, as per your argument, the Imam must have known that he will be alive on August 4, 2017.  Would it not have been better for him to remain in our midst, do away with all the confusion and then go into hiding as his time would have neared? 

In fact, since he knew he would not die in 2017, he could have remained in our midst because he would have known that Allah (swt) had not written his death to occur in 2017.  So he could have at least blessed us with over 1000 years of his presence and knowledge.  See how the structure collapses in many ways when the foundation is shaky?

May Allah (swt) bless you.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 01:27:13 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

muslim720

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2017, 01:39:04 AM »
Dear brother, you have understand those Hadiths incorrectly. Those Hadiths means that the narrated Hadiths of Imams must be referred to the Quran and Sunna, not the clear sayings of Imams that a person has heard directly from them.

In my previous post - which I am not able to modify - I also meant to ask, do you have a book that is authored by any one of the Imams (ra)?  If you have such a book, your point is valid and I misunderstood the hadiths.  If not then all hadiths are narrations and if they are narrated, a decision has to be made upon them in the light of Qur'an and Sunnah.  Again, it renders Imamah useless.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

muslim720

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2017, 01:39:54 AM »
Dear brother, you have understand those Hadiths incorrectly. Those Hadiths means that the narrated Hadiths of Imams must be referred to the Quran and Sunna, not the clear sayings of Imams that a person has heard directly from them.

In my previous post - which I am not able to modify - I meant to ask, do you have a book that is authored by any one of the Imams (ra)?  If you have such a book, your point is valid and I misunderstood the hadiths.  If not then all hadiths are narrations and if they are narrated, they are to be judged in the light of Qur'an and Sunnah according to the Imam (ra).  Again, it renders Imamah useless.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Exploring Al-Kafi
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2017, 02:51:28 AM »
Narrated Jabir:
"The Messenger of Allah (s) called 'Ali on the Day (of the battle) of At-Ta'if, and spoke privately with him, so the people said: 'His private conversation with his cousin has grown lengthy.' So the Messenger of Allah (s) said: 'I did not speak privately with him, rather Allah spoke privately with him.'"

Da'eef, not hasan: https://muflihun.com/tirmidhi/46/3726

Imam Tirmidhi was known to be Mutasahil(lenient), while grading in his Jam'i.  Several hadiths in which Tirmidhi says that the hadith is Hasan ghareeb, they turns out to be weak. Many scholars say that Tirmidhi himself mean by this terminology that the chain is weak as Tirmidi sometimes himself points out the weakness after terming the hadith Hasan Ghareeb. And moreover, Shaykh Sahsawani has given lots of examples from Jami’ Tirmidhi where Imam Tirmidhi declared a well known weak hadith to be Hasan.

As for the weakening of this report, then:

1. Sheikh Albani weakened it.
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2. Sheikh Zubair Ali Zaee weakened it.
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3. Shiekh Bashaar Awaad Ma'roof weakened it.
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« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 02:56:18 AM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

 

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