TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Hadrami on October 07, 2015, 04:34:23 AM

Title: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Hadrami on October 07, 2015, 04:34:23 AM
Have a look at this funny story from http://www.al-islam.org/special-deputies-association-imam-al-mahdi/first-deputy-hazrat-%E2%80%98uthman-b-sa%E2%80%99eed-al-amri-ra

========================

Quote
Shaikh Mufid (r.a.) writes in his book ‘Kitabul Irshad’: ‘After the martyrdom of Imam Hasan al-Askari (a.s.) when Ja’far b. Ali Naqi saw that their Imam (a.s.) did not have a successor, he usurped his (a.s.) property, imprisoned his (a.s.) maids and the women of the household and said evil things about his (a.s.) companions who were steadfast in their faith that Imam (a.s.) had a son and were waiting for his reappearance. He threatened them but they did not pay attention to him.

Ja'far knew his brother did not have a son & those who claimed otherwise would be liars or being fooled at. If Ja'far said "evil" things about shias then Ali RA & other imam also cursed those who claim to be their shias many times for being the worst of people, liars even heretics. Ja'far is just continuing the Ahlulbait's tradition of cursing their fake followers aka shias :D

Quote
Finally, Ja’far approached the Caliph of the time and sought his assistance to claim the position of his brother (Imam Hasan al-Askari (a.s.)). He paid a huge amount to the government by way of bribe, but failed miserably in his evil plans.’11

So the caliph saw Hasan al-Askari's position as a threat & a challenge to his authority, killed him, but then his brother went to that caliph asking for the position which shia said caused his brother killed in the first place? Nice. Also how can you bribe a caliph anyway?

Quote
Hazrat ‘Uthman b. Sa’eed (r.a.) had to face the uphill task of Ja’far’s claim of Imamat, his standing to lead the funeral prayers of Imam (a.s.) and creating doubts about the Imamat of Imam az-Zaman (a.t.f.s.).

Of course it would be an uphill task to lie about something like that. Ja'far was not the only one who knew uthman was a liar & Hasan had no son. The majority of Shia sects also opposed & doubted Uthman's claim (http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/shia-after-11th-imam's-death/).

Quote
When the Shias heard of Ja’far’s claim and his usurping Imam’s (a.s.) property and seeking help from Bani Abbas, some of them consulted Hazrat ‘Uthman b. Sa’eed (r.a.) and requested for a ‘Tawqee’ from Imam az-Zaman (a.t.f.s.) to clarify the matter and remove all suspicion and doubts once and for all. Our readers should find the following incident very interesting.

Ahmad b. Ishaaq wrote a letter to Imam az-Zaman (a.t.f.s.) enclosing Ja’far’s letter. He gave it to ‘Uthman b. Sa’eed (a.s.) to be forwarded to Imam az-Zaman (a.t.f.s.). Imam (a.t.f.s.) gave a very strong-worded reply and refuted the Imamat of Ja’far. Following is the extract of Imam’s (a.t.f.s.) letter:

‘This defrauder (Ja’far) has falsified Allah and has claimed Imamat. We do not know on what basis he has made such a claim. If he claims knowledge in the Ahkam and Fiqh of Allah’s religion, then by Allah, he is not able to distinguish between the permissible and the prohibited. He cannot distinguish between the clear and ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran.

So when Uthman bin Said's khums collection activities was in trouble due to Ja'far's testimony, he then brought a letter which he claimed was written by Mahdi condemning Ja'far. A letter which can be written by anyone or himself. Nice move to save the "khums enterprise" there.

Quote
After the martyrdom of Imam Hasan al-Askari (a.s.), the first representative of Imam az-Zaman (a.t.f.s.) came to Baghdad from Samarrah on the order of Imam (a.s.). The reason being that the government vigilance and control in Samarrah was very strict and it had relatively ignored Baghdad. Samarrah was the capital of the Abbasi government.

or maybe Uthman left, because he realised most people including majority of shia back then believed he was a liar?

What you will notice, the story of this deputy & St Paul are similar:
- both of them worked for the opponents (shia deputy supply army & Paul was member of forces which persecuted jesus followers)
- both of them claimed something which only them can proof (shia deputy said letters were written by imam & paul said he met jesus on his way to damascus which made him repented)
- both of them claim to be commanded to be their representatives
- the companion & original followers of jesus had issue with paul & the family of 11th imam had issue with uthman bin said
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Hani on October 07, 2015, 07:43:44 PM
great find, might post this on the site.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 08, 2015, 01:28:47 PM
Exposing the fabricated story of the birth of the 12th Imam & the associated lying 'deputies' should be an important topic. Shia constantly criticize the sahaba, through whom their (shia) lands were conquered from disbelief to Islam. Compare the sahaba to the so called deputies/companions of the last 'shia Imam'. These deputies were nothing but Liars, thiefs & frauds. So when shia criticise the sahaba for minor issues ask them to resolve the issue of their own 'sahaba/deputies of their hidden Imam'.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: MuslimK on October 09, 2015, 01:52:41 AM
interesting
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Hadrami on November 30, 2017, 10:55:14 PM
just revisiting funny shia story from "respected" shia website 😆
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 03, 2017, 10:20:27 PM
Where is iceman, whoaretheshia, zlatan etc?
Not one shia reply here!
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Hadrami on December 04, 2017, 07:36:51 AM
Where is iceman, whoaretheshia, zlatan etc?
Not one shia reply here!
maybe they themselves find this "respected" shia website's article is BS? Bribe caliph to be imam? Never heard someone would bribe a "billionare" to get himself killed. Only in shia's bollywood history 😂😂
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 05, 2017, 04:31:58 PM
I find this topic to be one of the biggest & embarrassing exposures of the 12er sect.
It does not surprise me that not even one of the shia on here have commented.
There is no way to defend this fraud exposing the foundations of the 12er sect.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 07, 2017, 01:23:51 PM
Bumping for iceman, whoaretheshia, zlatan???
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Hadrami on December 10, 2017, 05:27:12 AM
dont worry, they themselves knows that shia website's article is full of BS 😂
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 10, 2017, 04:48:39 PM
Its not just about the article on the shia website. Its in the shoa books. Its their history, their beliefs.
Those so called 4 representatives of the ‘hidden Imam’ were clearly blatant frauds & thieves. Anyone with a sane mind can see.
The shia are so embarrassed & scared to comment here!

Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: iceman on December 11, 2017, 03:32:25 AM
Its not just about the article on the shia website. Its in the shoa books. Its their history, their beliefs.
Those so called 4 representatives of the ‘hidden Imam’ were clearly blatant frauds & thieves. Anyone with a sane mind can see.
The shia are so embarrassed & scared to comment here!

No one is scared. Especially not from a handful of Anti Shia Propagandists. You can't promote and spread your own faith and are ashamed of the origin and foundation of your own belief. This is why you indulge in this propaganda so you can keep yourself busy and people away from getting to know the reality of your own belief.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: iceman on December 11, 2017, 03:48:04 AM
You also believe in the coming of Mahdi but are too afraid to discuss in how you believe in his coming. What is the need for a saviour to come when majority of the Muslims are Suni and on haq?

Mahdi is going to free this world from injustice and tyranny but where does this injustice and tyranny come from? Your beloved Caliphate brought injustice and tyranny.

How many Muslim countries do we have and how do you classify their rulers? Rather than looking for any silly excuse you can find engage in a proper discussion. Tell me exactly your version and belief in Mahdi. I will ask you questions and make run left, right and centre.

Let me begin. Sunis believe in the coming of Mahdi. Who is this Mahdi and what will his position and status be? What is the need for him when majority of the Muslims are Ahle Sunah, Suni and are on the true path? Is Mahdi going to appear to get rid of the minority, Shia etc?

Mahdi is going to take on injustice and tyranny. Hang on a minute, vast majority of Muslim country rulers are Suni, so who will these tyrants be that Mahdi will get rid of? What, are Shias all of a sudden going to become majority and popular?

Come on people, start answering or start running.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: iceman on December 11, 2017, 04:01:59 AM
Exposing the fabricated story of the birth of the 12th Imam & the associated lying 'deputies' should be an important topic. Shia constantly criticize the sahaba, through whom their (shia) lands were conquered from disbelief to Islam. Compare the sahaba to the so called deputies/companions of the last 'shia Imam'. These deputies were nothing but Liars, thiefs & frauds. So when shia criticise the sahaba for minor issues ask them to resolve the issue of their own 'sahaba/deputies of their hidden Imam'.

😊 We do not criticise or condemn the Sahaba, we criticise and condemn the rulers after Muhammad who used means of violence and threatening behaviour on the Ummah. For you Sahaba ate just a handful. I don't see you discussing and praising  companions when they were in huge numbers. Miqdad, Salman, Abu Zarr etc why do these names send a shiver down your spine?
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 11, 2017, 12:07:43 PM
@iceman
Stop trying to distract peoole from the topic.

Topic is 12th Imam rep i.e the four conmen.

Explain these 4 conmen please.

Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 30, 2017, 12:32:29 PM
Bumping for zlatan & iceman😁
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Zlatan Ibrahimovic on December 30, 2017, 04:41:57 PM
Bumping for zlatan & iceman😁

Lol. What do you want me to say? A lot of what is in the books of history is false and a lot of what is said in the mimbar is false and are just tales.

If a story makes no sense, why should I hang onto it? Denial of this story has no affect on aqeeda or core values and principles in tashayyu. I didn't even try to reconcile the story, because I don't see it as important to my faith.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 30, 2017, 05:10:14 PM
Lol. What do you want me to say? A lot of what is in the books of history is false and a lot of what is said in the mimbar is false and are just tales.

If a story makes no sense, why should I hang onto it? Denial of this story has no affect on aqeeda or core values and principles in tashayyu. I didn't even try to reconcile the story, because I don't see it as important to my faith.

These 4 guys were the chosen disciples of your final 12th Imam, the Imam of the age.

The fact that you are laughing it off as fairytales is no joke. I agree its all fairytales. But these are your sects most important men during the period of the minor occultation.

But thanks for acknowledging it as fairytales.

The contradiction is you ackowlegding it & still following the lie that these guys were the centre of.

At least you acknowledged it unlike iceman who is running scared from this thread.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Zlatan Ibrahimovic on December 30, 2017, 06:23:41 PM
These 4 guys were the chosen disciples of your final 12th Imam, the Imam of the age.

The fact that you are laughing it off as fairytales is no joke. I agree its all fairytales. But these are your sects most important men during the period of the minor occultation.

But thanks for acknowledging it as fairytales.

The contradiction is you ackowlegding it & still following the lie that these guys were the centre of.

At least you acknowledged it unlike iceman who is running scared from this thread.

That's not what I meant but oh well. The whole Ja'far thing never clicked in with me, the sufarah are fine.

I doubt he is running away, I was away for a long time and I stumbled upon this. I am sure he hasn't seen this yet.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 30, 2017, 08:27:30 PM
That's not what I meant but oh well. The whole Ja'far thing never clicked in with me, the sufarah are fine.

I doubt he is running away, I was away for a long time and I stumbled upon this. I am sure he hasn't seen this yet.

The implications are much bigger than you are making out to be. You can’t just brush it aside as if its a minor thing.
You’ve admitted the shia narrative of Jafar doesn’t click with you. The family of Hasan Al Askari denied the existence of your 12th Imam being born.
The four conmen with some right comedic stories totally played a tale on the ignorant shia by fooling them with silly fake letters.

As for iceman, he is definately aware of this thread. He just doesn’t want to discuss as this is a subject no shia can explain in a sane manner in this day & age.

It opens up the core of the twelver sects development. Conmen who faked letters, fooled the ignorant shia to accept their silly fairytales & pursuading them to revile al askari’s family & then the conmen & liars of qum who carried on these lies that formed the backbone of twelver sect literature.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Zlatan Ibrahimovic on December 31, 2017, 05:06:14 AM
The implications are much bigger than you are making out to be. You can’t just brush it aside as if its a minor thing.
You’ve admitted the shia narrative of Jafar doesn’t click with you. The family of Hasan Al Askari denied the existence of your 12th Imam being born.
The four conmen with some right comedic stories totally played a tale on the ignorant shia by fooling them with silly fake letters.

As for iceman, he is definately aware of this thread. He just doesn’t want to discuss as this is a subject no shia can explain in a sane manner in this day & age.

It opens up the core of the twelver sects development. Conmen who faked letters, fooled the ignorant shia to accept their silly fairytales & pursuading them to revile al askari’s family & then the conmen & liars of qum who carried on these lies that formed the backbone of twelver sect literature.

Lol, you call them conmen yet we have hadiths from Al-Askari (as) proving the opposite.

Furthermore, we have other authentic proofs proving his existence, outside of the four nuwaab (rah).
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: iceman on January 01, 2018, 04:27:47 AM
@iceman
Stop trying to distract peoole from the topic.

Topic is 12th Imam rep i.e the four conmen.

Explain these 4 conmen please.

Explain to me who and why are they conmen. You've called them conmen, care to explain who and why?
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: iceman on January 01, 2018, 04:33:58 AM
These 4 guys were the chosen disciples of your final 12th Imam, the Imam of the age.

The fact that you are laughing it off as fairytales is no joke. I agree its all fairytales. But these are your sects most important men during the period of the minor occultation.

But thanks for acknowledging it as fairytales.

The contradiction is you ackowlegding it & still following the lie that these guys were the centre of.

At least you acknowledged it unlike iceman who is running scared from this thread.

Over here. What seems to be the problem? What are you crying over this time?😊
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Hadrami on January 01, 2018, 10:04:57 PM
Lol, you call them conmen yet we have hadiths from Al-Askari (as) proving the opposite.

Furthermore, we have other authentic proofs proving his existence, outside of the four nuwaab (rah).
"authentic" hadith 😀, just like the "authentic" 12th one who has never been seen by anyone but the 4 conmen or few turban conmen whom many also collected money on his behalf.

Your blessed rep was conman even according to al Askari's family. Isnt it strange that there is not a single pious, God fearing, realiable family members or relatives of 11th imam was the rep? Instead his family didnt believe he had a son and was called liar by the conmen oil businessman who was running a ponzi scheme like khums enterprises for gullible shias like you. Keep blessing those conmen 😂
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: MuslimK on January 02, 2018, 01:17:54 AM
New article on TwelverShia.net related to this topic:
The infallible handwriting of their “Mahdi” (http://www.twelvershia.net/2018/01/01/infallible-handwriting-mahdi/)
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 02, 2018, 04:59:52 PM
Ice & zlatan can you honestly with a straight face say that these letter were genuine? That these guys were genuine & not frauds?

Its so obvious they were conmen & fraudsters.

Imagine if this was Abu Bakr or Umar, what would the shia reaction be?

Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: iceman on January 03, 2018, 12:19:34 AM
Ice & zlatan can you honestly with a straight face say that these letter were genuine? That these guys were genuine & not frauds?

Its so obvious they were conmen & fraudsters.

Imagine if this was Abu Bakr or Umar, what would the shia reaction be?

Saqifa was absolutel shambles but you've don't your best to protect it and make it look as something good came out of it. And with a straight face what seems to be the problem? You believe in Mahdi, don't you. So who will he be, what will his status and purpose be? This is what you're running from.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 03, 2018, 05:11:26 PM
Saqifa was absolutel shambles but you've don't your best to protect it and make it look as something good came out of it. And with a straight face what seems to be the problem? You believe in Mahdi, don't you. So who will he be, what will his status and purpose be? This is what you're running from.

Stick to the topic please.

We are discussing the 4 reps here. Do you believe the letters were genuine?
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Khaled on January 04, 2018, 02:16:48 AM
Saqifa was absolutel shambles but you've don't your best to protect it and make it look as something good came out of it. And with a straight face what seems to be the problem? You believe in Mahdi, don't you. So who will he be, what will his status and purpose be? This is what you're running from.

No body is running from anything, everyone on this site agrees that the results of Saqeefah was for the best.  We believe Abu Bakr, Omar, and Abu Ubdaydah رضي الله عنهم did the right thing and what ended up happening led to the greatest Ummah the world as ever seen.  We as Muslims look at the first 300 years, some of what came later, as the best time in history.  However, the best time religiously was during the reigns of the first four Caliphs, Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman and Ali رضي الله عنهم أجمعين.

Now, can you please answer this questions that was posted by zaid ibn ali, "Ice & zlatan can you honestly with a straight face say that these letter(s) were genuine? That these guys were genuine & not frauds?"
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Khaled on January 04, 2018, 02:17:57 AM
Lol, you call them conmen yet we have hadiths from Al-Askari (as) proving the opposite.

Furthermore, we have other authentic proofs proving his existence, outside of the four nuwaab (rah).

We have authentic mutawatir ahadeeth from every sect in Islam (including ironically 12erism) praising people like Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman; heck even Abu Hurayrah?  Are you convinced that they are good people now?
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Hani on January 04, 2018, 02:57:29 AM
I have a book containing all the letters that were sent by the so called 12th Imam, I can guarantee you they're forged, mostly about large sums of money that he took with him into "Ghaybah".

That's what Shia are good at, attacking remarkable and legendary historical leaders such as Abu Bakr & `Umar, heck even western historians and researchers wrote about how great these leaders were, while praising a hidden conman whose only achievement was consuming extra-ordinarily amounts of money and disappearing for 1,200+ years.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 04, 2018, 02:10:11 PM
Would be great to have such material in english.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: iceman on January 06, 2018, 10:03:30 PM
Ice & zlatan can you honestly with a straight face say that these letter were genuine? That these guys were genuine & not frauds?

Its so obvious they were conmen & fraudsters.

Imagine if this was Abu Bakr or Umar, what would the shia reaction be?

Stick to the topic and with a straight face, ok. Now what seems to be the problem and what is the fuss all about?

First of all I believe in justice and the rule of law but I don't know about you. One is innocent until they're proven guilty, unless you're a Shia 😂.

Now why are they fraud? What makes you think that? Bring the matter forward and I'll love to look into it and discuss it. HAPPY?
 
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 07, 2018, 01:59:57 AM
You’re asking what the problem is? Have you even read any of this thread?

Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: iceman on January 07, 2018, 07:46:31 PM
You’re asking what the problem is? Have you even read any of this thread?

Stop jumping up and down and answer exactly what is being asked. With a straight face can you tell me why they are a fraud. What makes or made you think as such?
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Hadrami on January 08, 2018, 06:14:43 AM
Stop jumping up and down and answer exactly what is being asked. With a straight face can you tell me why they are a fraud. What makes or made you think as such?
maybe because they were more concern about collecting khums money & wealth than anything else which they say for someone who no one ever saw, including 11th imam's blood brother & close relatives
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 08, 2018, 05:28:45 PM
Stop jumping up and down and answer exactly what is being asked. With a straight face can you tell me why they are a fraud. What makes or made you think as such?

They are frauds as they conned people through fake letters to handover scam khums money.

Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: iceman on January 09, 2018, 01:14:13 AM
They are frauds as they conned people through fake letters to handover scam khums money.

That's a very serious accusation. Any evidence to back this serious accusation?
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 09, 2018, 01:20:47 AM
That's a very serious accusation. Any evidence to back this serious accusation?

Read this article which is backed with quotes from Shia sources and please try to give a reasonable response as to why the Imam stopped writing letters in his handwriting while the second emissary was on his death bed?

http://www.twelvershia.net/2018/01/01/infallible-handwriting-mahdi/
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Khaled on January 09, 2018, 02:39:11 AM
That's a very serious accusation. Any evidence to back this serious accusation?

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Here are some highlights:

1) The emissaries were more interested in collecting Khums rather than answering religious questions, instead, referring their followers to the "books of narrations."
2) Al-Kulayni, who was a contemporary and was composing a book of narrations, didn't narrate from the emissaries nor did they authenticate his book.
3) The emissaries used to use letters by the handwriting of Hassan al-Askari's son during the lifetime of Muhammad bin Uthman.  After his death, the letters stopped being written with that same handwriting.  Interesting note, Muhammad bin Uthman announced ibn Rawh as his successor; making it unlikely that Muhammad bin Uthman wasn't in on the con.
4) al-Samari who was the last emissary left without a successor; which from my understanding is considered "illogical" in the 12er school.
5) The author of the article makes that claim that the concept of the emissaries died out because of "the emergence of  the Buwayhid Shia dynasty" because the "Buwayhids were now the representatives of the Shia community and their protectors. They will not share their authority with any Imam or representative since only one party can be in control. The heads of the Shia rejoiced when the Buwayhids ascended to authority and decided that the so called 12th Imam must disappear from our lives to please their new masters and thus began the “greater occultation”."

Please, for the love of Allah, the Qur'an, the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and his Ahl al-Bayt, actually address the points brought up and don't go into "whatabouttery" mode.

بارك الله فيك
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: Hadrami on January 10, 2018, 03:08:59 PM
re-write this story, but instead of 12th imam, changed it to a president or king etc and those 4 men will be called fraud and conmen by shia. Its just when it comes to their scholar stories, they switch off their brains.
Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 20, 2018, 02:55:37 PM
Still waiting for even one single adequate reply from iceman, zlatan or ibrahim or any shia.

You are all avoiding this thread like the plague.

Title: Re: 12th Imam Rep
Post by: GreatChineseFall on January 23, 2018, 09:42:08 PM
New article on TwelverShia.net related to this topic:
The infallible handwriting of their “Mahdi” (http://www.twelvershia.net/2018/01/01/infallible-handwriting-mahdi/)

This deserves a separate thread. Absolutely astonishing. How can people still be Twelver after this?