12th Imam Rep

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

The implications are much bigger than you are making out to be. You can’t just brush it aside as if its a minor thing.
You’ve admitted the shia narrative of Jafar doesn’t click with you. The family of Hasan Al Askari denied the existence of your 12th Imam being born.
The four conmen with some right comedic stories totally played a tale on the ignorant shia by fooling them with silly fake letters.

As for iceman, he is definately aware of this thread. He just doesn’t want to discuss as this is a subject no shia can explain in a sane manner in this day & age.

It opens up the core of the twelver sects development. Conmen who faked letters, fooled the ignorant shia to accept their silly fairytales & pursuading them to revile al askari’s family & then the conmen & liars of qum who carried on these lies that formed the backbone of twelver sect literature.

Lol, you call them conmen yet we have hadiths from Al-Askari (as) proving the opposite.

Furthermore, we have other authentic proofs proving his existence, outside of the four nuwaab (rah).

[iceman]

@iceman
Stop trying to distract peoole from the topic.

Topic is 12th Imam rep i.e the four conmen.

Explain these 4 conmen please.

Explain to me who and why are they conmen. You've called them conmen, care to explain who and why?

[iceman]

These 4 guys were the chosen disciples of your final 12th Imam, the Imam of the age.

The fact that you are laughing it off as fairytales is no joke. I agree its all fairytales. But these are your sects most important men during the period of the minor occultation.

But thanks for acknowledging it as fairytales.

The contradiction is you ackowlegding it & still following the lie that these guys were the centre of.

At least you acknowledged it unlike iceman who is running scared from this thread.

Over here. What seems to be the problem? What are you crying over this time?😊

[Hadrami]

Lol, you call them conmen yet we have hadiths from Al-Askari (as) proving the opposite.

Furthermore, we have other authentic proofs proving his existence, outside of the four nuwaab (rah).

"authentic" hadith 😀, just like the "authentic" 12th one who has never been seen by anyone but the 4 conmen or few turban conmen whom many also collected money on his behalf.

Your blessed rep was conman even according to al Askari's family. Isnt it strange that there is not a single pious, God fearing, realiable family members or relatives of 11th imam was the rep? Instead his family didnt believe he had a son and was called liar by the conmen oil businessman who was running a ponzi scheme like khums enterprises for gullible shias like you. Keep blessing those conmen 😂

[MuslimK]

New article on TwelverShia.net related to this topic:
The infallible handwriting of their “Mahdi”

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Ice & zlatan can you honestly with a straight face say that these letter were genuine? That these guys were genuine & not frauds?

Its so obvious they were conmen & fraudsters.

Imagine if this was Abu Bakr or Umar, what would the shia reaction be?

[iceman]

Ice & zlatan can you honestly with a straight face say that these letter were genuine? That these guys were genuine & not frauds?

Its so obvious they were conmen & fraudsters.

Imagine if this was Abu Bakr or Umar, what would the shia reaction be?

Saqifa was absolutel shambles but you've don't your best to protect it and make it look as something good came out of it. And with a straight face what seems to be the problem? You believe in Mahdi, don't you. So who will he be, what will his status and purpose be? This is what you're running from.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Saqifa was absolutel shambles but you've don't your best to protect it and make it look as something good came out of it. And with a straight face what seems to be the problem? You believe in Mahdi, don't you. So who will he be, what will his status and purpose be? This is what you're running from.

Stick to the topic please.

We are discussing the 4 reps here. Do you believe the letters were genuine?

[Khaled]

Saqifa was absolutel shambles but you've don't your best to protect it and make it look as something good came out of it. And with a straight face what seems to be the problem? You believe in Mahdi, don't you. So who will he be, what will his status and purpose be? This is what you're running from.

No body is running from anything, everyone on this site agrees that the results of Saqeefah was for the best.  We believe Abu Bakr, Omar, and Abu Ubdaydah رضي الله عنهم did the right thing and what ended up happening led to the greatest Ummah the world as ever seen.  We as Muslims look at the first 300 years, some of what came later, as the best time in history.  However, the best time religiously was during the reigns of the first four Caliphs, Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman and Ali رضي الله عنهم أجمعين.

Now, can you please answer this questions that was posted by zaid ibn ali, "Ice & zlatan can you honestly with a straight face say that these letter(s) were genuine? That these guys were genuine & not frauds?"

[Khaled]

Lol, you call them conmen yet we have hadiths from Al-Askari (as) proving the opposite.

Furthermore, we have other authentic proofs proving his existence, outside of the four nuwaab (rah).

We have authentic mutawatir ahadeeth from every sect in Islam (including ironically 12erism) praising people like Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman; heck even Abu Hurayrah?  Are you convinced that they are good people now?

[Hani]

I have a book containing all the letters that were sent by the so called 12th Imam, I can guarantee you they're forged, mostly about large sums of money that he took with him into "Ghaybah".

That's what Shia are good at, attacking remarkable and legendary historical leaders such as Abu Bakr & `Umar, heck even western historians and researchers wrote about how great these leaders were, while praising a hidden conman whose only achievement was consuming extra-ordinarily amounts of money and disappearing for 1,200+ years.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Would be great to have such material in english.

[iceman]

Ice & zlatan can you honestly with a straight face say that these letter were genuine? That these guys were genuine & not frauds?

Its so obvious they were conmen & fraudsters.

Imagine if this was Abu Bakr or Umar, what would the shia reaction be?

Stick to the topic and with a straight face, ok. Now what seems to be the problem and what is the fuss all about?

First of all I believe in justice and the rule of law but I don't know about you. One is innocent until they're proven guilty, unless you're a Shia 😂.

Now why are they fraud? What makes you think that? Bring the matter forward and I'll love to look into it and discuss it. HAPPY?
 

[zaid_ibn_ali]

You’re asking what the problem is? Have you even read any of this thread?

[iceman]

You’re asking what the problem is? Have you even read any of this thread?

Stop jumping up and down and answer exactly what is being asked. With a straight face can you tell me why they are a fraud. What makes or made you think as such?

[Hadrami]

Stop jumping up and down and answer exactly what is being asked. With a straight face can you tell me why they are a fraud. What makes or made you think as such?

maybe because they were more concern about collecting khums money & wealth than anything else which they say for someone who no one ever saw, including 11th imam's blood brother & close relatives

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Stop jumping up and down and answer exactly what is being asked. With a straight face can you tell me why they are a fraud. What makes or made you think as such?

They are frauds as they conned people through fake letters to handover scam khums money.

[iceman]

They are frauds as they conned people through fake letters to handover scam khums money.

That's a very serious accusation. Any evidence to back this serious accusation?

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

That's a very serious accusation. Any evidence to back this serious accusation?

Read this article which is backed with quotes from Shia sources and please try to give a reasonable response as to why the Imam stopped writing letters in his handwriting while the second emissary was on his death bed?

http://www.twelvershia.net/2018/01/01/infallible-handwriting-mahdi/

[Khaled]

That's a very serious accusation. Any evidence to back this serious accusation?

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Here are some highlights:

1) The emissaries were more interested in collecting Khums rather than answering religious questions, instead, referring their followers to the "books of narrations."
2) Al-Kulayni, who was a contemporary and was composing a book of narrations, didn't narrate from the emissaries nor did they authenticate his book.
3) The emissaries used to use letters by the handwriting of Hassan al-Askari's son during the lifetime of Muhammad bin Uthman.  After his death, the letters stopped being written with that same handwriting.  Interesting note, Muhammad bin Uthman announced ibn Rawh as his successor; making it unlikely that Muhammad bin Uthman wasn't in on the con.
4) al-Samari who was the last emissary left without a successor; which from my understanding is considered "illogical" in the 12er school.
5) The author of the article makes that claim that the concept of the emissaries died out because of "the emergence of  the Buwayhid Shia dynasty" because the "Buwayhids were now the representatives of the Shia community and their protectors. They will not share their authority with any Imam or representative since only one party can be in control. The heads of the Shia rejoiced when the Buwayhids ascended to authority and decided that the so called 12th Imam must disappear from our lives to please their new masters and thus began the “greater occultation”."

Please, for the love of Allah, the Qur'an, the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and his Ahl al-Bayt, actually address the points brought up and don't go into "whatabouttery" mode.

بارك الله فيك