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Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi

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Arabismo

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/special-specifications-imam-al-mahdi

In a discussion with a rafidi he copy/pasted the part claiming that many Sunni scholars affirmed the existence of the 12th Imam and affirmed that he was Mahdi thus agreeing with the 12er shi3i view. Here is my reply to this nonsense.



Edited by: AbuMuslimKhorasani
Reason: Improved title
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 02:10:48 AM by AbuMuslimKhorasani »
An ant from the valley of the ants possesses more intellect than a Rafidhi - Fakhr Al-Din Razi

Arabismo

Re: Al-Islam claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2015, 12:42:51 AM »
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1.Kamal al-Din Ibn Talha, in his book "Matalib al-Su’aal Fi Manaqib Aal al-Rasool"
The first quote simply says in his book. It does not quote what he said and therfore does not show he is in agreement with the Shia. So go ahead and bring the quote from his book and show me how he is in agreement with the Shia.
 
Quote

2.Sulayman Ibn Ibrahim al-Qundoozi, al-Hanafi (known as Khawajah Kalan), in his book "Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah”who has also established from important Sunni sources that love for Ahlul-Bayt is the only right path and the Islamic Way of Life.
Same as above
 
Quote

3.Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji, al-Shafi’i, (d. 658 AH), the author of "Al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman”and "Kifayah al-Talib".
Same as above
 
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4.Shaikh Nooruddin ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Sabbagh, al-Maliki, from Mecca, in his book "al-Fusool al-Muhimmah", pp 310,319.

Same as above
 
Quote

5.Ahmad Ibn Ibrahim Ibn Hashim al-Baladhuri is one of the great scholars and traditionists who also asserts the Imamat and occultation of the twelfth Imam in his book called "al-Hadith al-Mutasalsil"

Go ahead and bring me the quote from his book and show me where he asserts the Imama
 
 
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6.Ibn Arabi (Muhyiddin Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad al-Arabi), al-Hanbali, in his book "Al-Futuhat al-Makkia”(Chapter 366) discusses a detailed account of the birth of al-Mahdi, son of al-Askari (as), and of his re-appearance before the day of resurrection.
Ibn Arabi was considered a Shi3i by many and held many weird views and this is what the scholars of Islam say about him.
 
 ibn Hajar said:Some confusing words of Ibn ‘Arabi were mentioned to our master Shaykh al-Islam Siraaj al-Deen al-Balqeeni, and he was asked about Ibn ‘Arabi. Our Shaykh al-Balqeeni said: he is a kaafir.
 
 Ibn Khaldoon said:Among these Sufis are: Ibn ‘Arabi, Ibn Saba’een, Ibn Barrajaan and their followers who follow their path and their religion. They have many books in circulation that are filled with blatant kufr and repugnant bid’ahs, trying to interpret clear texts in very far-fetched and repugnant ways, such that the reader is astounded that anyone could attribute such things to Islam.
 
Al-Subki said: These later Sufis, such as Ibn ‘Arabi and his followers, are misguided and ignorant and beyond the pale of Islam; those among them who have knowledge are even worse.
 
Quote

7.Ibn Khashab (Abu Muhammad Abdullah Ibn Ahmad Ibn Ahmad Ibn Khashab), has given a detailed account of the twelfth Imam in his biographical book called "Tawarikh Mawaleed al-A’imma wa Wafiyatihim"

Please quote from his book and show were he is in agreement with the Shia.
 
Quote

8.Shaikh Abdullah Sha’rani (d. 905 AH), the celebrated Sufi, in his work "Yaqaqeet", Chapter 66, deals with the birth and the occultation of the twelfth Imam. Also He extensively talks about Imam al-Mahdi (as) in his other book "Aqa’id al-Akabir".
9.Shaikh Hasan Iraqi who accepts the twelfth Imam, praises Sha’rani as a pious and a learned ascetic, and narrates the story of Sha’rani’s meeting with the twelfth Imam.

10.Sayyid ‘Ali, known as Khawas, the teacher of Sha’rani, also a believer of the twelfth Imam, confirms what Shaikh Hasan asserted about the meeting of Sha’rani with the twelfth Imam.
Tell me what madhab Abdullah Sharani belonged to, provide evidence that he was a sunni and mention who from the Sunni scholars spoke of him. The same for the second guy who claimed Sharani met the 12th Mahdi, and the third guy who was the suppose teacher of sharani.
 
Quote

 
Nooruddin Abdul Rahman Ibn Ahmad, known as Mulla Jami, in his book Shawahid al-Nubuwwah (The Evidence of Prophethood of Muhammad) gives an account of the birth of the twelfth Imam and his statement is in complete agreement with the Shi’a records.
Go ahead and bring me the quote from his book that he is in agreement with the shia.
 
 
Quote

12.Muhammad Ibn Mahmood al-Bukhari, al-Hanafi, known as Khawaja Parsa in his book "Fasl al-Khitab”gives the account of the birth, occultation, and re-appearance of the twelfth Imam.

Same as above
 
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13.Shaikh Abdul Haq Dehlawi, in his book "Jazb e Qulub", narrates the statements of Hakima, the daughter of the ninth Imam who was asked by the eleventh Imam, Imam al-Askari, to stay with Narjis, mother of the last Imam during the night at the end of which she gave birth to her son.
If he narrates the statement of Hakima he is quoting from Shia books, the existence of Hakima herself is disputed(see video)
 

 
Quote

14.Sayyid Jamaluddin Husayni Muhaddith who is the author of the celebrated book "Rawdhat al-Ahbab". According to Dayar Bakri, Mulla ‘Ali Qari, Abdul Haqq Dehlawi, "Rawdhat al-Ahbab”is one of the reliable sources of reference. The author mentions the twelfth Imam in the most reverential terms. He states:
The auspicious birth of the pearl of the Vicegerency and the precious form of the mine of guidance took place on the 15th of Sha’ban in the year of 225 AH at Samarra. He has described the Imam in the following words:
• al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar (the expected Mahdi)
• al-Khalaf al-Salih (the righteous successor)
• Sahib al-Zaman (the master of the time)

Bring the Page from his book were he says this and show me where Dayar Bakri, Mulla ‘Ali Qari, Abdul Haqq Dehlawi made the claim this his book is realible
 
 
Quote
15.al-Arif Abdul Rahman Sufi, in his works "Mir’at al-Asrar”(The Mirror of Mysteries) gives a detailed account of the birth, and the occultation of the twelfth Imam.

Go ahead and bring me the quote from his book that he is in agreement with the shia.
 
 

Quote

16.’Ali Akbar, son of Asadullah Maududi, in his book Mukashifaat (Visions), which is a commentary on "Nafahat al-Uns”by Abdurrahman Jami, asserts the existence of the Mahdi as being the pole of guidance after his father Imam Hasan al-Askari, who was also the pole of guidance and Imamat.
Tell me what madhab Abdullah Sharani belonged to, provide evidence that he was a sunni and mention who from the Sunni scholars spoke of him. Then Quote from his book and show me where he wrote what al-islam claimed he wrote.
 
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17.Malik al-Ulama Dulatabadi who is a well known scholar, in his work "Hidayat al-Saada”has confirmed the Imamat and the occultation of al-Mahdi.


Same as above. Since he is "Well known" this shouldnt be a problem
 
Quote

18.Nasr Ibn ‘Ali Jahzami Nasri, one of the most reliable reporters of traditions whom Khateeb al-Baghdadi has praised him in his works on history, and Yusuf Ganji al-Shafi’i, in his book Manaqib has introduced Nasr as one of the masters of al-Bukhari and Muslim. Nasr asserts the existence of:
Qa’im Aale Muhammad (The ‘Support’ among the family of Muhammad), the one among the Imams of the House of the Prophet (S) whose duty is to establish Islam throughout the world.
Where did Nasr say this? Please bring a refrence.
 
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19.Mulla ‘Ali Qari, one of the greatest traditionists, in his famous book, "Mirqat", talks about Imam al-Mahdi after mentioning the celebrated statement of the Holy Prophet (S) that after him there would be twelve successors (Caliphs). Mulla ‘Ali states whether they are in power or not makes no difference as they are the rightful Imams.
1. Mulla Ali Qari ÑÍãå Çááøå mentioned the 12 Khalifs as such
 
Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali ,Mu'awiya, Yazeed ,Abdul Malik bin Marwan ,Walid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan ,Sulayman bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan ,Umar bin Abdul Aziz ,Yazeed bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
Hasham bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan.  References: Sharah Fiqah Akbar, by Mulla Ali Qari, p 176 (publishers Muhammad Saeed and son, Qur'an Muhalla.  Sharah Fiqha Akbar, by Mulla Ali Qari, page 70 (published by Qadeemy Kutub Khana, Aram Bagh, Karachi)
 
This is what he wrote in Mirqat
 
The Shia refer the twelve Caliph as the continuous khalifas of the prophet’s Ahlebayt, the first is Ali ibn Abi Talib, Hasan bin Ali, Husayn bin Ali, Zain Al-Abdeen, Muhammad Al-Baqir, Jafar Al-Sadiq, Musa Al-Kadhem, Ali Al-Ridha, Muhammad Al-Taqi, Ali Al-Naqi, Hasan Al-Askari, Muhammad Al-Mahdi
 
He is simply writing about what the Twelver believe in, he is not agreeing with the shia as per your lie.
 
Quote

20.Kazi Jawad Sibti was a Christian but later became a Muslim. He wrote "Baraheen Sibtiyya”(Proofs forwarded by Sibti), which is a refutation of the Christian writers. He narrates the Prophecy from Ashaya (Joshua) concerning the coming of a man from the chosen branch of the chosen lineage of Adam who would be the seat of the spirit. In other words, he will be filled with the spirit of wisdom, sympathy, justice and knowledge and he will be God fearing. God will bestow on him a sound and glorying reason and make him firm.
His judgment would be based on hearing an external evidence, but he will have a guided insight about everything and judge people according to what they really are in their hearts. He further states that his method of judgment is peculiar to him and has not been adopted by any prophet or Vice-regent of God. The Muslims are unanimous that the Mahdi of this description shall be descendant of Fatimah, daughter of the holy Prophet (S). Particularly the view of the Shi’a seems to be real interpretation of this real prophecy.
Tell me which madhab he belonged to, provide evidence that he was a sunni, provide me evidence that he was a scholar and mention who from the Sunni scholars spoke of him.
 
 
Quote
21.Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi, al-Hanafi, (Shams al-Din Abul Mudhaffar Yusuf), the author of "Tathkirat al-Khawas", pp 325-328 gives the names of 22 people believed by Muslims to have lived various ages from 3,000 down to 300 years! He also writes about the twelfth Imam as follows
 
• He (al-Mahdi) is Muhammad Ibn al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn Musa al-Ridha
• His title is Abu Abdillah and Abul Qasim
• He is the last successor of the Prophet (S)
• He is the Last Imam of the House
• He is the authoritative proof of God (al-Hujjah)
• He is the master of time (Sahib al-Zaman)
• and he is the expected one (al-Muntadhar)
Sibt was a shi3i and not a Sunni. He converted from sunni hanafism to shiism as Dhaahbi mentioned
 
An ant from the valley of the ants possesses more intellect than a Rafidhi - Fakhr Al-Din Razi

Khaled

Re: Al-Islam claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2015, 01:12:31 AM »
Ibn Arabi Alhanbali?  :o
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Al-Islam claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2015, 01:42:29 AM »
Many Sunni scholars did indeed say that the 12th Imam is Mahdi, and the 4th and 5th Imam are Ali and Hassan.

So we agree that out of the 12 imams 3 of them....

Khaled

Re: Al-Islam claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2015, 02:04:25 AM »
Many Sunni scholars did indeed say that the 12th Imam is Mahdi

What does this mean exactly?  Many Sunni scholars said that Hassan Alaskari's son was the Mahdi?  Or that the 12th Caliph/Imam would be the the Mahdi?

You need to qualify this statement
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

MuslimK

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Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2015, 02:12:48 AM »
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 02:24:53 AM by AbuMuslimKhorasani »
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Ibn Yahya

Re: Al-Islam claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2015, 02:57:52 AM »
Many Sunni scholars did indeed say that the 12th Imam is Mahdi, and the 4th and 5th Imam are Ali and Hassan.

So we agree that out of the 12 imams 3 of them....

most of the Shi'ah of Musa ibn Ja'far (Rahimah Allah) seem to disagree :P

Arabismo

Re: Al-Islam claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2015, 03:18:38 AM »
Many Sunni scholars did indeed say that the 12th Imam is Mahdi, and the 4th and 5th Imam are Ali and Hassan.

So we agree that out of the 12 imams 3 of them....

In which alternate universe did this occur?
An ant from the valley of the ants possesses more intellect than a Rafidhi - Fakhr Al-Din Razi

Hadrami

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2015, 03:32:16 AM »
Many Sunni scholars did indeed say that the 12th Imam is Mahdi, and the 4th and 5th Imam are Ali and Hassan.

So we agree that out of the 12 imams 3 of them....

Forget your lies about Sunnis. Shias during their imam's time believed Muhammad al-Hanafiyah was Mahdi and Ja'far al-Sadiq was Mahdi and Ismail bin Ja’far was and  Musa al Kadhim was Mahdi and Hasan al-Askari was Mahdi and some other Mahdis...so are you sure yours is the correct Mahdi?

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/the-confusing-history-of-shia-imamate-and-mahdi/

Arabismo

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2015, 04:19:01 AM »
An article should be written of Shia Scholars who investigated and came to the conclusion the Shia Mahdi is nothing but a myth ;D . Scholars like Ahmad Al Katib
An ant from the valley of the ants possesses more intellect than a Rafidhi - Fakhr Al-Din Razi

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2015, 04:43:56 AM »
Quote
In which alternate universe did this occur?

Who's the 4th and 5th Imam in the Sunni school?

Who's the 12th according to suyuti and many ulema?

Ibn Yahya

Re: Al-Islam claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2015, 04:53:31 AM »

Quote

2.Sulayman Ibn Ibrahim al-Qundoozi, al-Hanafi (known as Khawajah Kalan), in his book "Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah”who has also established from important Sunni sources that love for Ahlul-Bayt is the only right path and the Islamic Way of Life.

"al-Qanduzi, is described in Mu’jam al-Mu’allifin (vol. 4 p. 252) as a Sufi who lived during the latter half of the 13th/19th century"

http://gift2shias.com/2010/05/03/answering-the-peshawar-nights/

Arabismo

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2015, 04:54:17 AM »
Quote
In which alternate universe did this occur?

Who's the 4th and 5th Imam in the Sunni school?

Who's the 12th according to suyuti and many ulema?

If by Imam you mean Caliph then the 4th is Ali ibn abi Talib and the 5th is Amir ul Muminin Muawiyya (as)

Suyuti was of the view that one of the twelve could be Mahdi he was however not talking about the non-existing shi3i Mahdi who is still hiding from the Abbasid caliphate, he was talking about the sunni Mahdi who will born at the end of times.


An ant from the valley of the ants possesses more intellect than a Rafidhi - Fakhr Al-Din Razi

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2015, 05:01:25 AM »
Most of the lists that your scholars lists of the 12 Imams include Ali and Imam Al mahdi as the 12th including Ibn katheer, many of them also include Imam Al hassan.


Arabismo

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2015, 05:13:52 AM »
Most of the lists that your scholars lists of the 12 Imams include Ali and Imam Al mahdi as the 12th including Ibn katheer, many of them also include Imam Al hassan.
Even if that is the case the Mahdi in that list is the Sunni Mahdi born at the end of times not your 1000+ year old Mahdi.

The point of this thread is that Al-Islam wrote an article claiming Sunni Scholars affirmed the existence of your 12th imam and affirmed him as the Mahdi, however when you examine this article you see that these scholars are either unknown, shi3i or are they are simply writing about the shi3i belief and describing it not affirming it as the website claim.  ::)
An ant from the valley of the ants possesses more intellect than a Rafidhi - Fakhr Al-Din Razi

Hadrami

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2015, 05:21:41 AM »
Many Sunni scholars did indeed say that the 12th Imam is Mahdi, and the 4th and 5th Imam are Ali and Hassan.

So we agree that out of the 12 imams 3 of them....

Forget your lies about Sunnis. Shias during their imam's time believed Muhammad al-Hanafiyah was Mahdi and Ja'far al-Sadiq was Mahdi and Ismail bin Ja’far was and  Musa al Kadhim was Mahdi and Hasan al-Askari was Mahdi and some other Mahdis...so are you sure yours is the correct Mahdi?

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/the-confusing-history-of-shia-imamate-and-mahdi/

Hey herzl, most shia in imam's time dont believe in your version of Mahdi. How can you be sure, yours is the true Mahdi? I must say, your Mahdi is one of a kind tho. The only leader of "mujahidin" who ran away and hiding for 11 centuries because he was afraid.

Rationalist

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2015, 05:02:09 AM »
Many Sunni scholars did indeed say that the 12th Imam is Mahdi, and the 4th and 5th Imam are Ali and Hassan.

So we agree that out of the 12 imams 3 of them....
The  ones mentioned are most those associated with Sufism. The Sufis themselves say their beliefs and practices are not binding on the Ummah. Also, the main Sufi figure who claimed he was a representative of the 12th Imam was Al Mansoor al Hajjaj. When Al Mansoor brought the news to Shaykh Saduq, Shaykh Saduq joined forces with Anti Sufi Sunnis, and got him killed. So again the proofs are unconvincing.

Rationalist

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2015, 05:05:08 AM »
Quote
In which alternate universe did this occur?

Who's the 4th and 5th Imam in the Sunni school?

Who's the 12th according to suyuti and many ulema?

The 12 Calipahs hadith talks about 12 rulers, not 12 divinely appointed imams. Next the ahadith does not qualify as mutawatir. So, one is not required to believe in that ahadith in order to be a Muslim or Momin.

Ibn Yahya

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2015, 06:44:35 AM »
Most of the lists that your scholars lists of the 12 Imams include Ali and Imam Al mahdi as the 12th including Ibn katheer, many of them also include Imam Al hassan.

can you please give citations for ibn Kathir and these "many"

Ibn Yahya

Re: Al-Islam.org claim Sunni Scholars affirmed the 12 imam as Mahdi
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2015, 06:45:57 AM »
Quote
In which alternate universe did this occur?

Who's the 4th and 5th Imam in the Sunni school?

Who's the 12th according to suyuti and many ulema?

Here's a question. Why does it matter? Nowhere in the Hadith is there any indication that

a) these are the only Khulafah
b) that it has any importance at all

 

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