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`Ali's official letters

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Hani

`Ali's official letters
« on: March 21, 2015, 12:06:12 AM »
Salam,


Imami Shia claim `Ali had a distinct rank and position that no one else held, but did he clarify this in his official letters?


We find in Nahj-ul-Balagha, under the section on `Ali's letters, on page 582 in a letter he sent to the Koufans as he left for Basarah:




مِنْ عَبْدِ اللهِ عَلِيّ أَمِيرِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ إلَى أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ، جَبْهَةِ الاَْنْصَارِ وَسَنَامِ الْعَرَبِ أَمَّا بَعْدُ


"From the slave of Allah `Ali, commander of the faithful, to the people of Kufah who are foremost among the supporters and chiefs of the Arabs."


And in another letter he wrote regarding his Will:


هذَا مَا أَمَرَ بِهِ عَبْدُ اللهِ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِب أمِيرُالْمُؤْمِنِينَ فِي مَالِهِ، ابْتِغَاءَ وَجْهِ اللهِ، لِيُولِجَني بِهِ الْجَنَّةَ، وَيُعْطِيَني الاَْمَنَةَ


"This is what was ordered by the slave of Allah `Ali ibn abi Talib, commander of the faithful, regarding his property, seeking Allah's face."


On the other hand we see the leaders before him, such as `Umar ibn al-Khattab write their letters identically, like in al-Ahkam al-Sultaniyyah, the first volume, on page 122:


من عبدالله عمر بن الخطاب أمير المؤمنين إلى عبد الله بن قيس، سلام عليك، أما بعد


"From the slave of Allah `Umar ibn al-Khattab, commander of the faithful, to `Abdullah ibn Qays, peace be upon you."


And the leader after him, also all of them wrote the exact same words, such as abu Ja`far al-Mansour, in al-Kamil-fil-Lughah, third volume 1490-1491:


من عبد الله عبد الله أمير المؤمنين، إلى محمد بن عبد الله، أما بعد


"From the slave of Allah `Abdullah, commander of the faithful, to Muhammad bin `Abdullah."


In other words all of them except Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq wrote the exact same expressions, this is because Abu Bakr had a distinct station of being the actual successor, so he would write "Khalifatu Rasul-Allah" and the title of "Commander of the faithful" was not used in his time.


If `Ali had a distinct position and elevated status, why didn't he use it to identify himself? For instance Shia claim he's "The infallible leader" or they say "Wasi Rasul-Allah", why did he not use these titles to show his special position?


So ponder.



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2015, 03:15:57 AM »
Very simple, the opposition to and of the Ahlul Baith, do you think they would have left material lying around that would justify the position of Ali as the rightful successor to the Prophet (pbuh)??? Even the collection, mention and presentation of Hadiths were restricted and even banned straight after the Prophet's (pbuh) death. Why??? Those people who were interested in running Khilafath and believed in this system would and did use their authority and power to stay in office, restrain the opposition through what ever means they seem necessary and keep any threat at bay. This was and still is the political way of life and is openly practices every where and in every country. The sooner we wake up and take in what is natural and common the better.

Imam Ali

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2015, 04:02:32 AM »
Very simple, the opposition to and of the Ahlul Baith, do you think they would have left material lying around that would justify the position of Ali as the rightful successor to the Prophet (pbuh)??? Even the collection, mention and presentation of Hadiths were restricted and even banned straight after the Prophet's (pbuh) death. Why??? Those people who were interested in running Khilafath and believed in this system would and did use their authority and power to stay in office, restrain the opposition through what ever means they seem necessary and keep any threat at bay. This was and still is the political way of life and is openly practices every where and in every country. The sooner we wake up and take in what is natural and common the better.

ROFL. He was granted a divine position, and he's going to keep tight lipped about it when writing to other cities/towns just because he was afraid that would repel against him? That's by far the most retarded reasoning.

Ali (RA) was equally apart of the polical system and setup for all those 25 years. He approved of every successor that came by before his reign started.

Who you kidding?

Hani

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2015, 11:36:28 AM »
That's why `Ali's virtues literally fill Sunni books... your conspiracy theories make no sense man.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Husayn

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2015, 11:49:20 AM »
Very interesting, never thought of that.

It's just another one of those things that Shiis will attribute to taqiyya - even though its clear that it's just a small detail that the Shii compilers overlooked when they were fabricating so many things.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

MuslimK

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Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2015, 04:25:30 PM »
Another clear evidence against the fake followers of the school of Ahlulbayt.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Mythbuster1

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2015, 04:49:37 PM »
MASHALLAH

Beautifully said brother hani, I mean just by that title alone it shows the VERY HIGH STATUS of Hazrath Abu Bakr Sidique ra

The title itself KHILAFA tu rasulallah no other person in the history of islam since the passing away of the prophet saw, has held that title!!!!

A person whom ALLAH SWT mentions in quran to whom sakina was sent and a person whom prophet saw mentioned ALL THE DOORS OF HEAVEN are open for

SUBHANALLAH

May Allah swt guide us all on the straight path

Ameen

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2015, 04:51:54 PM »
Very simple, the opposition to and of the Ahlul Baith, do you think they would have left material lying around that would justify the position of Ali as the rightful successor to the Prophet (pbuh)??? Even the collection, mention and presentation of Hadiths were restricted and even banned straight after the Prophet's (pbuh) death. Why??? Those people who were interested in running Khilafath and believed in this system would and did use their authority and power to stay in office, restrain the opposition through what ever means they seem necessary and keep any threat at bay. This was and still is the political way of life and is openly practices every where and in every country. The sooner we wake up and take in what is natural and common the better.

ROFL. He was granted a divine position, and he's going to keep tight lipped about it when writing to other cities/towns just because he was afraid that would repel against him? That's by far the most retarded reasoning.

Ali (RA) was equally apart of the polical system and setup for all those 25 years. He approved of every successor that came by before his reign started.

Who you kidding?

First of all he never kept tight lipped about it but he did keep a tight grip on it just like other divine leaders. One thing you clearly don't understand is what divine authority is all about. When it comes to divine authority such as Messengerhood and Prophecy, it is there for the welfare and benefit of mankind. Give me one Messenger/Prophet who brought, introduced and spread the divine message through means of violence and threatening behaviour??? Through the sword???

Give me one Messenger/Prophet who pushed for world leadership, who wanted to be recognised and accepted as world leader or leader of his community first, be it king or Khalif then decided to introduce and spread the divine message through authority and power, through the sword???

Just as Messengerhood/Prophecy is therefor the benefit and welfare of and for mankind and "La Ikraha Fideen", there is no force, no push and shove in religion, also Imamath is there for the benefit and welfare of the Muslims and the same rules apply here. There is no force, no push and shove.

This is why Ali remained patient and tolerant, sidelined himself and let them get on with it. He was never tight lipped about it but was always tight gripped about it. As you clearly know and some of you accept that when the decision in Sakeefa was made certain companions along with the Ahlul Baith showed their disappointment and disputed this.

In return threats were made to corner those who opposed and to get them on the band wagon. Were those threats carried out and to such an extent that unexpectedly violence was used where unfortunately Fatimah got caught up and was injured in the process??? Did it go this far??? I don't know. But threats were made because the disappointment and dispute was there regarding how the decision in Sakeefa was made and conducted.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 04:56:01 PM by Ameen »

Furkan

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2015, 05:30:40 PM »
Dude, Ali was in power when he sent those letters. Why wouldn't he say "from the wasi to..." or "from the imam to (someone else) "
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2015, 05:52:15 PM »
As if `Ali was a Prophet/Messenger,

Anyways, everything you wrote was besides the point, his letters are right in front of you, why didn't he announce his special position in these letters?

This is like saying a Prophet does not want to announce his prophet-hood because there is no compulsion in religion, WHAT DOES COMPULSION HAVE TO DO WITH ANNOUNCING HIS TITLE??

Muhammad (saw) announced his position openly whether they liked it or not, that doesn't mean he forced them to embrace Islam.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Sheikh

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2015, 06:44:30 PM »
In these letters, Ali refers to himself as "Ameer Al-Mumineen".  Shiites say that this title was given exclusively to him by the Messenger of Allah (pbuh).  Hypothetically, if this were true, then he would have identified himself as different or special from other people by using that title.


But that's ignoring the fact that the other 3 Caliphs were also known as Ameer Al-Mumineen, as Shiites often do.

Sheikh

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2015, 06:46:40 PM »
That's why `Ali's virtues literally fill Sunni books... your conspiracy theories make no sense man.
It is interesting that in Sunni books, a Shiite can be regarded as completely reliable.  In fact, many of our hadeeths have Shiites in their chains.  But in Shiite books, being a part of any sect other than Imami Shiaism will remove from you the possibility of being Thiqah.


And we are the biased ones?

Hani

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2015, 07:19:29 PM »
Historically speaking, the title of "Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen" was first invented and used during `Umar's time.

This is because during the time of the Prophet (saw), leaders of armies or delegations were referred to as "Ameer" or commanders/chiefs, it is essentially a person the Prophet (saw) places in charge of other Muslims.

The Prophet (saw) also referred to those who will succeed him after he dies as "Khalifah", this means successor/deputy.

So when he (saw) passed away, Abu Bakr was simply referred to as "Khalifatu Rasul-Allah".

When Abu Bakr died, the one to succeed him should be called "Khalifatu-Khalifati-Rasulillah" in other words, "The successor of the successor of the Messenger of Allah" This was very hard and impractical on the long term.

The companions gathered and decided on the title "Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen" meaning commander of faithful /chief of believers, and this became the title of anyone who became head of state and was used by every leader since `Umar's time until very recently.

The extremist Shia of `Ali decided that no one was a legitimate leader except for him, and that those before him were not leaders, so the title Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen was reserved only for him according to them.

These same extremists later went and fabricated reports attributing them to the Prophet (saw) in which he would say that "Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen" was a title exclusive for `Ali, they even went further as I recall saying that anyone else who uses this title is a sinner.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Sheikh

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2015, 07:48:57 PM »
they even went further as I recall saying that anyone else who uses this title is a sinner.
According to Yasser Al-Habib, anyone that uses this title is a passive homosexual.

Imam Ali

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2015, 02:18:45 AM »
Very simple, the opposition to and of the Ahlul Baith, do you think they would have left material lying around that would justify the position of Ali as the rightful successor to the Prophet (pbuh)??? Even the collection, mention and presentation of Hadiths were restricted and even banned straight after the Prophet's (pbuh) death. Why??? Those people who were interested in running Khilafath and believed in this system would and did use their authority and power to stay in office, restrain the opposition through what ever means they seem necessary and keep any threat at bay. This was and still is the political way of life and is openly practices every where and in every country. The sooner we wake up and take in what is natural and common the better.

ROFL. He was granted a divine position, and he's going to keep tight lipped about it when writing to other cities/towns just because he was afraid that would repel against him? That's by far the most retarded reasoning.

Ali (RA) was equally apart of the polical system and setup for all those 25 years. He approved of every successor that came by before his reign started.

Who you kidding?

First of all he never kept tight lipped about it but he did keep a tight grip on it just like other divine leaders. One thing you clearly don't understand is what divine authority is all about. When it comes to divine authority such as Messengerhood and Prophecy, it is there for the welfare and benefit of mankind. Give me one Messenger/Prophet who brought, introduced and spread the divine message through means of violence and threatening behaviour??? Through the sword???

Give me one Messenger/Prophet who pushed for world leadership, who wanted to be recognised and accepted as world leader or leader of his community first, be it king or Khalif then decided to introduce and spread the divine message through authority and power, through the sword???

Just as Messengerhood/Prophecy is therefor the benefit and welfare of and for mankind and "La Ikraha Fideen", there is no force, no push and shove in religion, also Imamath is there for the benefit and welfare of the Muslims and the same rules apply here. There is no force, no push and shove.

This is why Ali remained patient and tolerant, sidelined himself and let them get on with it. He was never tight lipped about it but was always tight gripped about it. As you clearly know and some of you accept that when the decision in Sakeefa was made certain companions along with the Ahlul Baith showed their disappointment and disputed this.

In return threats were made to corner those who opposed and to get them on the band wagon. Were those threats carried out and to such an extent that unexpectedly violence was used where unfortunately Fatimah got caught up and was injured in the process??? Did it go this far??? I don't know. But threats were made because the disappointment and dispute was there regarding how the decision in Sakeefa was made and conducted.

More disposable waste.

He did keep quiet. There's the companions nominating people to become the successor and the Hadith of Ghadir just fell on deaf ears did it? Ali (RA) couldn't just tap someone on the shoulder and say:

"Hold on bredrin, you're forgetting that a couple of months ago my father in law (SAW) formally announced in the middle of a desert near a pond that I was to become the successor after his passing, what's all this ashura malarkey about?"

Abu Bakr (RA) shut up everyone with ONE Hadith when he said successorship will and must come Quraish. The Ansar backed off and went with the flow. Ali (RA) just kept quiet about his own personal right? Don't be pathetic.

Like Hani said, all you've posted is not related to the thread. HIS time had finally come, all the meanies who apparently bullied him have long gone, what was going to stop him from at least stating on a piece of parchment that he's the divine leader appointed from the heavens (even though he was 25 years late)? How much of a coward will you make him out to be?

Rationalist

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2015, 05:57:48 AM »
I love Ameen's filibusters. He can't answer why Ali didn't call himself the successor of Prophet in the letters so he ends up getting emotional in an area which has nothing to do with the topic.

Hadrami

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2015, 07:11:25 AM »
they even went further as I recall saying that anyone else who uses this title is a sinner.
According to Yasser Al-Habib, anyone that uses this title is a passive homosexual.

sinner or passive homosexual is nothing compare to being called disbelievers. I have read that anyone who was called by that title other than Ali RA is disbeliever.

Sheikh

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2015, 07:45:42 AM »
they even went further as I recall saying that anyone else who uses this title is a sinner.
According to Yasser Al-Habib, anyone that uses this title is a passive homosexual.

sinner or passive homosexual is nothing compare to being called disbelievers. I have read that anyone who was called by that title other than Ali RA is disbeliever.
I have a gay Muslim friend and he has been told many times that there's no such thing as a gay Muslim and that because he's gay he's not a Muslim and going to hell.

So I was under the impression that homosexual was equivalent to being called a disbeliever.

Furkan

Re: `Ali's official letters
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2015, 12:58:44 PM »
Ha gaaaaaaayyy
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

 

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