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Appointment of Ali article

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Farid

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2017, 12:43:46 AM »
I just want to remark about one thing here, since it is the most obvious issue in your hypothesis. It is the matter of proximity to the time of Abu Huraira.

You see, your biases as a Shi'ee is not the only issue here. Your opinion, and the opinion of any Shi'ee, is a second hand opinion. Your opinion can only be based upon reports that you have access to in which you use your ijtihad to twist the report in your favour. Not only is that an issue, but at times, you do not even know of the reliability of the report.

For example, the opinion of Abu Salih Al-Samman is based on what? His PERSONAL experience with Abu Huraira! He met him and sat with him and learned from him. He is the best person to judge his reports. Who in his right mind would take your ijtihad ya fifteenth century Shi'ee over Abu Salih's experience?!

On the other hand, you have to rely on a chain in order to suggest that Abu Huraira allegedly claimed to meet Ruqayya. Did you even consider that this is not authentic?! When a hadith conflicts with history, the hadith scholars look for the weakest link in the chain. You immediately went for Abu Huraira instead of pointing out the disconnection between Al-Mutalib and Abu Huraira! You cannot even prove that Abu Huraira said this, and yet, you want to accuse him of lying. This is supposed to be an academic discussion, my friend.

Be aware that this discussion is not about your view of Abu Huraira. Your view is irrelevant to Sunnis. Nor is it about my view of Ibrahim bin Hashim, since my view is irrelevant to Shias. This discussion is about how the Sunnis view Abu Huraira and about how Shias view Ibrahim bin Hashim.

There is a consensus among the four Sunni schools that Abu Huraira is reliable, not only because he is a Sahabi, but he has received the praise of the Sahaba and the Tabi'een. He is beyond a "thiqa" according to Sunni standards. 

Can you manage to provide evidence of the trustworthiness of Ibrahim bin Hashim according to Shia? Wallahi most Shias never heard of the man! They have no idea how much of their religion they take from him, and YET, by Allah, he is more significant in Shiasm in terms of narrations than Al-Redha, Al-Jawad, Al-Hadi, Al-Askari, and Al-Mahdi COMBINED!!

Ya habeebi, how many posts are you going to keep this up until you are forced to speak about the reliability of Ibrahim bin Hashim? We both know that he is an embarrassment to the Shia hadith system. May Allah guide you and free you from your reliance on people that you don't know.

Hani

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2017, 01:11:23 AM »
Salam,

I wrote a long reply and it got deleted, let me summarize:


1- You quoted Mu`awiyah's virtue, we're discussing aba Hurayrah and Ibrahim. Some Sunni Imams view that Mu`awiyah has no authentic virtues.


2- Narrating a lot is not a sin nor a shame. Some Companions disliked narrating a lot and warned others against it (e.g `Umar)


3- The people did not accuse aba Hurayrah of lying, they were familiar with the report but asked if the second part was also from the Prophet (saw) or an explanation by aba Hurayrah.


4- Ruqayyah narration is weak. It's possible later narrators confused between her and her sister Umm Kulthum like they often did to Hasan/Husayn and mothers of believers.


5- Aba Hurayrah swore because he trusted Fadl and Usamah whom he heard it from actually got it from the Prophet (saw). He retracted his view since the wives know better.


6- Aba Hurayrah did not contradict himself, rather narrators of that same event described various details they retained. Some said "I heard from two persons", others said "I heard from Fadl", others "I heard from Usamah" so research shows who the "two persons" were.


7- Not uncommon for a Companion to narrate from another without mentioning him as intermediary. He may have narrated tons from Fadl without mentioning his name.


Now please, your authentication of Ibrahim bin Hashim.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2017, 01:55:01 AM »
Dear Shia debater, we have entertained this with patience, not one post has been written about Ibrahim bin Hashim so far, IF your next post does not contain the authentication of the man then I assume you're not serious about reaching truth and are being unfair, it will be deleted.



You can return to further discuss the above AFTER you provide what you agreed to provide.


« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 05:09:04 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Abu Muhammad

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2017, 02:50:37 AM »
We also have this:

‎ حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ عَمْرٍو، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ جَعْدَةَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللهِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو الْقَارِيِّ، قَالَ: سَمِعْتُ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ، يَقُولُ: لَا وَرَبِّ هَذَا الْبَيْتِ مَا أَنَا قُلْتُ: ” مَنْ أَصْبَحَ جُنُبًا فَلَا يَصُومُ ” مُحَمَّدٌ وَرَبِّ الْبَيْتِ قَالَهُ، مَا أَنَا نَهَيْتُ عَنْ صِيَامِ يَوْمِ الْجُمُعَةِ، مُحَمَّدٌ نَهَى عَنْهُ وَرَبِّ الْبَيْتِ

Abu Hurairah swears by the Lord of the Kaba that the news (Hadith) was from the Prophet and not himself...

In another report, on the same issue when questioned (because of the suspicion) he admitted that he thought and assumed about it. So Marwan said to him, "you give verdicts to people on presumptions!"

However in another report when he was informed that the wives of the Prophet (s) contradicted his narrative, he stated that he had heard the news from Fadl bin Abbas.

Now you want ask, where's the problem? Let me explain:

- He swore by the Kaba (he was absolutely certain, as if he PERSONALLY heard it) that the Prophet (s) stated the Hadith he was narrating...

- When he was questioned about it, after the wives contradicted him, he said, I thought so or I presumed so...

- In another narration, he stated he got it from Fadl bin Abbas...

He contradicted himself THREE times!

First, he was absolutely certain that the Prophet said it...

Then he assumed. But when Marwan killed his integrity by saying, you give fatwas to people on assumptions, he realised his grave mistake and sought for a better explanation:

He named Fadl bin Abbas, an individual who was not around to bear witness. Very convenient!

His is what Abu Bakr al-Bazzar said:

‎ولا نعلم روى  أبو هريرة  ، عن  الفضل  إلا هذا الحديث

"We are not aware that Abu Huraira narrated from Fadl bin Abbas except this Hadith."

(Do you know of any report, where Fadhl bin Abbas had narrated that Hadith?

How many Hadith has Abu Huraira narrated from him?

Did the people ask Fadl bin Abbas if he was alive, or OTHERS like they did with various matters?

These questions may help his honesty.

Quoted:

.............. ‘Aa’ishah never accused Aboo Hurayrah of lying. However, there do exist a number of incidents where she corrected Aboo Hurayrah for erring in the hadeeth he transmitted. This was not unique for Aboo Hurayrah, but rather ‘Aa’ishah corrected a number of the Companions. Imaam al-Zarkashee (794 A.H.) has gathered and commented upon all the statements wherein which ‘Aa’ishah corrected another of the Prophet's companions in his al-Ijaba li Irad ma Istadraakahu ‘Aa’ishah 'ala Sahaabah. 

Of these criticisms by ‘Aa’ishah, there exists one in Saheeh Muslim (Cairo: Vol. 3, p. 137). Specifically that Aboo Hurayrah related that the individual who at dawn (fajr) is in a state of sexual defilement, he is not permitted fast. When ‘Aa’ishah and Umm Salamah were questioned regarding this they informed that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) during the month of Ramadan would awake at dawn in a state of sexual defilement not due to a dream (i.e., due to having sexual relations) and fast. When Aboo Hurayrah was later questioned as to his source, he informed that he heard that from al-Fadl ibn 'Abbas and not the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) directly.

Az-Zarkashee (Cairo: p. 57) informs that the ruling delivered by Aboo Hurayrah was initially the ruling given by the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) but was later abrogated. This abrogation it seems did not reach Aboo Hurayrah. That the ruling was abrogated is echoed in the verses regarding the permissibilty of sexual relations with one's women during the night of Ramadan.

Moreover, it should be noted that a number of the leading scholars among the second generation (taabi'een), held the same opinion of Aboo Hurayrah. Among them was ‘Aa’ishah's nephew, 'Urwah ibn al-Zubayr. It seems that 'Urwah interpreted ‘Aa’ishah's statement to indicate a ruling specific to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and not general for the umma. This opinion was also held by Taawoos, 'Ataa', Saalim ibn 'Abd Allah ibn 'Umar, al-Hasan al-Basree, and Ibraaheem al-Nakha'ee. And thus we see this opinion among the scholars of the tabi'in in the cities of Makkah, al-Madeenah, al-Basra, and al-Koofah. 


Source:
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/defend_abuhurayrah.htm


Shia786

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2017, 04:02:48 PM »
@ Farid

The discuss for me was was NOT about how the Sunnis view Abu Huraira and how the Shias view Ibrahim bin Hashim. It was an attempt to look at these narrators from different angles and perspectives...

@ Abu Muhammad, I have read that reply and was waiting for Hani to repeat such points mentioned in that article so that I could reply him. I found the abrogation issue very bizzare, since what was abrogated was the issue of not being permitted to have sex with wives during Ramadhan. Abu Huraira spoke about "not being permitted to fast when one is ritually impure". These two issues are different to one another so abrogation cannot apply.

ANYHOW I WAS SUPRISED TO READ THIS:

Dear Shia debater, we have entertained this with patience, not one post has been written about Ibrahim bin Hashim so far, if your next post does not contain the authentication of the man then I assume you're not serious about reaching truth and are being unfair, it will be deleted.

First of all, I don't debate, I discuss. I agree and I disagree with things. Aim is to investigate matters from two sides.

Secondly, you are forcing me to ignore the issue of Abu Huraira and jump unto Ibrahim bin Hashim?

Why do I have to take your explanations blindly? You replied well and good, why can't I respond to them for having to disagree with various points you raised?

Besides, I had other narrations which I wanted to go through. But since you have boldly claimed that you will delete my post, if I don't jump to Ibrahim bin Hashim, there's no point.

Seems I started discussing with a very impatient person. Please be tolerant and impatient when discussing with opponents.

This threat stops here. I have been warned and I now quit.

Have a happy Ramadhan all.

Peace!

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2017, 04:15:48 PM »
The problem is that you were turning it into a discussion on Abu Huraira only. If the discussion is meant to be regarding both Abu Hurairah & Ibrahim ibn Hashim then its academically unfair to just focus on one & ignore the other.

You seem to be dodging addressing the Ibrahim ibn Hashim issue by prolonging the discussion on Abu Hurairah.

Correct me if if i'm wrong but the duscussion at hand is the reliability of abu hurairah under sunni criteria & the reliability of ibrahim ibn hashim according to shia criteria?

Abu hurairah is a renound sahabi so this alone meets the highest criteria for sunni's so how you are trying to prove he is unreliable is only according to your own beliefs & not sunni criteria.
I think the brothers were looking to prove that ibrahim ibn hashim doesn't meet the criteria of being reliable under shia criteria for a narrator.

You seem to want to dodge this part of the discussion.

Link

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2017, 05:38:16 PM »
Salam

Shia786, I don't think people here are interested in the truth. The best thing to do is to provide proofs of whatever you are going to present and then leave it that. These people think if they get the last word or reply no matter how illogical and irrational their responses, they won the debate.

They also avoid real issues that come to the heart of the problem.

Regarding Rijaal,  it's all circular reasoning used to verify it. It's nothing but that at the end. Their scholars are reliable because they followed the righteous Salaf, the true salaf are reliable because they followed the righteous companions, and how do they know who is the righteous Salaf, it's through their scholars. And how do their scholars are worthy to be followed, it's due to them following the Salaf.

Aside from that, even their whole criteria were not circular reasoning. There is somethings to be asked:

1. Are their hadiths that have been authenticated and even at the level of tawatur that contradict Quran?

We have to check if the system we been passed actually passes us the truth. The litmus test is the Quran.   I find there is authentic and tawatur hadiths in both Sunni and Shiite sources that contradict Quran.

So to me, our Rijaal has failed us.  It was not that it was impossible to distinguish trustworthy from liar, it's just that we didn't do it right.   Just as revelations before were not guarded, so to our ahadith are not guarded.

2. What do for salvaging the light of the words of Ahlulbayt that are left among us.

I suggest foremost letting hadiths give possible insight to Quran. That is to say, we say if this hadith is true, can we see the truth of it in Quran and can Quran verify it. I don't mean what is obviously in line with Quran. I mean what takes reflection and with sincere reflection, we begin to see themes or a woven Taweel in Quran through the hadith. I would give all such narrators "insight" tally.

If narrator never gives us any insight into Quran, this already tells you much. If a narrator narrates things that constantly contradict Quran, this tells you much. But if we make these tallies, we can realize who was the deceiving devil trying to pollute the water and we can tell who were the Rabbaniyoon trying to safeguard the truth of God's revelation.

I believe we can salvage what we have.   Then for the things we neither can verify or disregard through Quran or reasoning, we will have made a tally system, and I believe it would be fair to use this tally system to trust which narrators and not to trust narrators for the truth.

Most of our narrators are "unknown" (majhool) does God want us to do away with all these narrators because we inherited from a people who didn't know them?

I want you to sincerely think about this issue.

In the past, people of past divine reminders abandoned the reminders slowly by this method of trusting certain people and then accusing others of lying.

We all know the "official" scriptures of Jews and Christians overall do not befit the Creator and the truth was lost over time.

The people that were entrusted these revelations followed leaders who were not appointed to God and they told them which scriptures they safeguared and to trust, and which not to.

I remind you that the Quran warns by the way of the past.

Moreover the traditions and Quran advise us to follow the truth and not conjecture. Ilmel rijaal at the at if it is accurate is best educated guess. It's not 100% unseen knowledge of who is trustworthy and who isn't.

The problem is even if it over all works,  some deceivers can get by and some truthful people can be falsely accused.

And if all gives us is some increased probability of reliability,  which we all know is the best case scenario in reality, than we ought to question, does God want us to be guessing what is right and wrong in his Shariah?

There are ahadith that judgement regarding God's religion cannot be possibility of maybe but be decisive.

The Quran also says we were commanded to say about God nothing but the truth and enjoin the truth upon one another.

This cannot be done by guess work and conjecture. It has to be done through insight.

I believe reasoning and insight into the religion can guide us to levels of intellect we are yet to appreciate.

But we can't all do this individually. We have to come together and counsel one another with this, till we refer things back truly to God and his Messenger.

We are commanded to obey Ahlulbayt so we refer things back to Quran and Sunnah, not so we are ignorant of them and rely on a few people to think for us nor are we to rely on conjecture and hope a guessing system brings us to the truth as close as possible.

Ahlulbayt have said their words are light, and thing about light, is that it manifests truth and illuminates and hence can be verified.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2017, 06:20:03 PM »
@ Farid

The discuss for me was was NOT about how the Sunnis view Abu Huraira and how the Shias view Ibrahim bin Hashim. It was an attempt to look at these narrators from different angles and perspectives...

@ Abu Muhammad, I have read that reply and was waiting for Hani to repeat such points mentioned in that article so that I could reply him. I found the abrogation issue very bizzare, since what was abrogated was the issue of not being permitted to have sex with wives during Ramadhan. Abu Huraira spoke about "not being permitted to fast when one is ritually impure". These two issues are different to one another so abrogation cannot apply.

ANYHOW I WAS SUPRISED TO READ THIS:

Dear Shia debater, we have entertained this with patience, not one post has been written about Ibrahim bin Hashim so far, if your next post does not contain the authentication of the man then I assume you're not serious about reaching truth and are being unfair, it will be deleted.

First of all, I don't debate, I discuss. I agree and I disagree with things. Aim is to investigate matters from two sides.

Secondly, you are forcing me to ignore the issue of Abu Huraira and jump unto Ibrahim bin Hashim?

Why do I have to take your explanations blindly? You replied well and good, why can't I respond to them for having to disagree with various points you raised?

Besides, I had other narrations which I wanted to go through. But since you have boldly claimed that you will delete my post, if I don't jump to Ibrahim bin Hashim, there's no point.

Seems I started discussing with a very impatient person. Please be tolerant and impatient when discussing with opponents.

This threat stops here. I have been warned and I now quit.

Have a happy Ramadhan all.

Peace!


LoooL Alright Shia "non-debater", I didn't know the word debate freaked you out so much, so I guess you're only a "discusser" not a "debater"? Even though the definition of the word debate is as follows:

"A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward."

So basically, you want this to ONLY be a one sided thread where you can attack abu Hurayrah's reliability based on your own Ijtihad but the moment we ask you "Present evidence for Ibrahim's reliability just as we provided for abu Hurayrah's reliability" you suddenly escape.

It is only fair we asked you the SAME thing you asked US. We allowed you to begin while we were on the defensive, we allowed you to question the reports and replied, then we allowed you to post further arguments against aba Hurayrah and still we responded to those, how long were you going to keep going? Are we not also allowed to discuss your guy? Instead of a back and forth debate you want this to be a one sided offensive against our guy while your guy chills?

Look, I've been saying it "sarcastically" since a few posts, give us Ibrahim's authentication, I know you won't because he's a nobody and you know it, if not you'd have presented it without all this drama but you already know you lost since the first post.

Nice Ramadhan!
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Abu Muhammad

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2017, 06:28:51 PM »
@ Abu Muhammad, I have read that reply and was waiting for Hani to repeat such points mentioned in that article so that I could reply him. I found the abrogation issue very bizzare, since what was abrogated was the issue of not being permitted to have sex with wives during Ramadhan. Abu Huraira spoke about "not being permitted to fast when one is ritually impure". These two issues are different to one another so abrogation cannot apply.

You find it bizzare?

Abu Hurairah wasn't alone having that view. There were others from various locations holding the same view as him. From whom do you think those people getting the ruling from? Abu Hurairah?

That shows the view was once used to be the ruling. They might not aware that it had been abrogated or viewed the ruling to only apply to the Prophet s.a.w. as per Urwah.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2017, 08:00:13 PM »
Any working links to the previous debate on this subject? Farid vs walid was it?

I would like to see the arguments for & against the standing of Ibrahim ibn Hashim as a narrator.

MuslimK

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  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2017, 09:36:03 PM »
Any working links to the previous debate on this subject? Farid vs walid was it?

I would like to see the arguments for & against the standing of Ibrahim ibn Hashim as a narrator.

It is available on archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111011000543/http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843

Page No.15 is missing though. If anyone can retrieve page 15 then please share the link with us.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

MuslimK

  • *****
  • Total likes: 192
  • +2/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2017, 09:57:59 PM »
I realised the discussion will go nowhere when I saw the Shia brother rejecting the supplication of the Prophet (saw) for Abu Huraira as evidence for his reliability. The mere supplication of the Prophet (saw) for his memory and knowledge is sufficient for his reliability. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 10:48:32 PM by MuslimK »
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Hadrami

Re: Appointment of Ali article
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2017, 11:14:11 PM »
Look, I've been saying it "sarcastically" since a few posts, give us Ibrahim's authentication, I know you won't because he's a nobody and you know it, if not you'd have presented it without all this drama but you already know you lost since the first post.
a religion which depends on a nobody, led by someone who is hiding away for 1000+years aka doesnt exist. Lets just laugh at this joke of a religion.

 

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