Bukhari Volume 4, Book 51, Number 4

[Bolani Muslim]

Salaam, my friend sent me this to 'think' about.

Narrated Al-Aswad:

In the presence of 'Aisha some people mentioned that the Prophet had appointed 'Ali by will as his successor. 'Aisha said, "When did he appoint him by will? Verily when he died he was resting against my chest (or said: in my lap) and he asked for a wash-basin and then collapsed while in that state, and I could not even perceive that he had died, so when did he appoint him by will?"

He then writes.

Some tidbits and food for thought regarding the narration of Aisha. In it's context, Aisha is talking about how some people were discussing between each other how the prophet(pbuh) appointed Ali(as) as his successor. She was saying this while the prophet(saw) was on his death bed living his last weeks before departing back to Allah(swt). This was after the event of Ghadir Khum and shortly before the death of the prophet(pbuh). Meaning, between this small time period, the idea of Hadhrat Ali(as) being the successor of the prophet(saw) was common between some companions and they discussed it between each other. Yet at the same time, Aisha is claiming she did not hear such a thing herself even though she did not even accompany the prophet in Ghadir to begin with, while those other companions who were discussing Ali as being the successor did accompany the prophet(saw) in Ghadir.

Moreover, this shatters the opponents arguments where they claim that the idea of Hadhrat Ali being the  prophet's successor is a later development of the Shi'as themselves or of Abdullah Ibn Saba. Abdullah Ibn Saba did not even become apparent to the Muslims until the reign of Uthman(almost 25 years after the death of the prophet), while the discussion between some companions about Ali succeeding the prophet took place while the prophet was alive, hence, such argument is not valid and clearly conflicts with historical facts and realities.

What's your guys's view?

[Furkan]

Prophet Muhammed Did Not Apoint A Khalif

Commonly amongst the Sunnis it is believed that Prophet of Allah appointed Abu Bakr Sadeeq radiallah tallah anh as his 1st Khalifah. And Shia Rawafiz are of beleife that Ali radiallah tallah anh was apointed as the 1st Khaleef, but the evidence points contrary to both believes.

Narrated by Al Aswad, who stated that Um Ul Momineen Aysha Sadeeqah radiallah tallah anha, had negated Ali radiallah tallah anh being apointed as the 1st Khalifah of RasoolAllah:

* Sahih Bukhari, Book 59, Number 736: “Narrated Al-Aswad: It was mentioned in the presence of 'Aisha that the Prophet had appointed 'Ali as successor by will. Thereupon she said, "Who said so? I saw the Prophet, while I was supporting him against my chest. He asked for a tray, and then fell on one side and expired, and I did not feel it. So how (do the people say) he appointed 'Ali as his successor?"

* Sahih Bukhari, Book 51, Number 4: “Narrated Al-Aswad: In the presence of 'Aisha some people mentioned that the Prophet had appointed 'Ali by will as his successor. 'Aisha said, "When did he appoint him by will? Verily when he died he was resting against my chest (or said: in my lap) and he asked for a wash-basin and then collapsed while in that state, and I could not even perceive that he had died, so when did he appoint him by will?"

* Sahih Muslim, Book 13, Hadith 4013: “Aswad b. Yazid reported: It was mentioned before A'isha that will had been made (by the Holy Prophet) in favour of 'Ali (as the Prophet's first caliph), whereupon she said: When did he make will in his favour? I had been providing support to him (to the Holy Prophet) with my chest (or with my lap). He asked for a tray, when he fell in my lap (relaxing his body), and I did not realise that he had breathed his last. When did he make any will in his ('Ali's) favour?”

This also indicates that if Ali radiallah tallah anh was apointed as the1st Khalifah on any another ocasion then she would have known it, and the Sahabah as whole would have known this.

Infact Prophet of Allah did not make a will in which he nominated a Khalifah or a will in which he passed mentioned distribution of inheritance:

* Sahih Bukhari, Book 61, Number 540: “Narrated Talha: I asked 'Abdullah bin Abi 'Aufa, "Did the Prophet make a will (to appoint his successor or bequeath wealth)?" He replied, "No." I said, "How is it prescribed then for the people to make wills, and they are ordered to do so while the Prophet did not make any will?" He said, "He made a will wherein he recommended Allah's Book."

From: http://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/22953-hazrat-abu-bakr-first-khalifah-of-prophet-sallallahu-alayhi-wa-aalihi-wassallam/

(I checked all narations and they are correctly referenced)

[Furkan]

Also this from Abul Hussain at SC:

It doesn't prove anything. Some unknown people thought like that and Sayyida Aisha, Omol-Mominin (ra) corrected them.
 
 
Lets read what Ali (ra) said in Sahih Bukhari Vol. 8, Book 74, Hadith 282:
 
Narrated by Ibn Abbas:
 
`Ali bin Abi Talib came out of the house of the Prophet () during his fatal ailment. The people asked (`Ali), "O Abu Hasan! How is the health of Allah's Messenger () this morning?" `Ali said, "This morning he is better, with the grace of Allah." Al-`Abbas held `Ali by the hand and said, "Don't you see him (about to die)? By Allah, within three days you will be the slave of the stick (i.e., under the command of another ruler). By Allah, I think that Allah's Messenger () will die from his present ailment, for I know the signs of death on the faces of the offspring of `Abdul Muttalib. So let us go to Allah's Messenger () to ask him who will take over the Caliphate. If the authority is given to us, we will know it, and if it is given to somebody else we will request him to recommend us to him. " `Ali said, "By Allah! If we ask Allah's Messenger () for the rulership and he refuses, then the people will never give it to us. Besides, I will never ask Allah's Messenger () for it."

[Hani]

Let's comment on what he wrote,

The man says:
[Aisha is talking about how some people were discussing between each other how the prophet(pbuh) appointed Ali(as) as his successor.]

No they weren't, the narration doesn't mention `Ali being a successor, it says "Awsaa ila `Ali" which means he spoke to `Ali of his Will, or asked him to do something as part of his Will(Wasiyyah), he could have told him to take care of Fatimah (as) after he is gone, or he could have told him to keep praying on time and take care of the orphans, or he could have told him to pay-off a certain debt he had. We know that the Will of a person is his last words of advice before he departs, `A'ishah denies that the Prophet (saw) had called on `Ali moments before his death and willed to him certain things whether they are "special" or regular matters.

What further proves this, is that in Mustakhraj abi `Awanah `A'ishah asks them:

بِمَ أَوْصَى إِلَى عَلِيٍّ

"What did he (saw) Will to `Ali?"

Meaning she doesn't know what he willed to him, it could be anything.

Then after she tells them how he (saw) died in her lap, `A'ishah asked them:

وَمَا شَعَرْتُ بِهِ فَمَتَى أَوْصَى إِلَيْهِ

"So when then did he Will to him?"

Further showing that this was in regards to his final official Will, not the successor-ship that the Shia claim took place at Khum a long time before this event.

The narrations denying that the Prophet (saw) made an official traditional will or Wasiyyah are by the path of `A'ishah and the path of ibn abi Awfa (Who says the Prophet (saw) "Awsa bi Kitab Allah" or he Willed and recommended Allah's book, meaning adhering to it and reciting it and guarding it.) Which means he never made a Will in the traditional sense.

He says:
[She was saying this while the prophet(saw) was on his death bed living his last weeks before departing back to Allah(swt). This was after the event of Ghadir Khum and shortly before the death of the prophet(pbuh).]

This is incorrect, rather the events of this discussion took place AFTER the Prophet (saw) died as is very obvious, in fact `A'ishah quite clearly describes the moment of the Prophet's (saw) death while talking to these men. I say this narration most probably took place AFTER `Abdullah ibn Saba' started telling people that the Prophet (saw) made Wasiyyah to `Ali just like Musa (as) made Wasiyyah to Yusha` (as), also him and his followers spread news of `Ali being in possession of secret knowledge given to him by Rasul-Allah (saw), which `Ali denied personally in several authentic narrations (probably in that same book your friend is quoting).

That's it, the rest of what he said is him trying to build upon his corrupt understanding of the report.

[MuslimK]

Now your friend need to think about what is written above ^

Also, try to invite to come to this forum. 

[Furkan]

This friend is I think Najashi from SC. Bolani knows him through fb.

(assumptions)

[Hani]

Whoever he is, invite him, we need more Shia to discuss with.

[Furkan]

They don't come. There is also a shii guy called Muhhamed on fb who tries to convince Bolani all the time. First he told us he will join TS, but after a while he refused to join us here and started inviting us to Shiachat. Such a loser, all they want to do is temporary damage to certain individuals. He also said " Hani will close the debate if I give strong arguments bla bla" I told him " if he does that, you can expose him on SC" . He still refused -_-

[Hani]

Tell him I won't close the debate, show him this thread and tell him I guarantee him his thread will not be closed, also don't force them to come, there's a lot of Shia here and there, I'm sure someone will come.

Maybe "Ameen" can help us get some ppl from SC, he's been here for a while and he knows that we didn't ban him or cheat him or whatever...

[Optimus Prime]

If he takes one narration from Bukhari then would he be willing to consider all the narrations from all the sources that indicate otherwise?

I seriously doubt it. Hadith-picking, like I told Ameen once.

[Furkan]

We offered him an official debate, yet no result. At the moment he is discussing with bolani on fb.

[Mussana]

I don't know whether u people can call it a blessing or not.
None among the shia is ready to debate people on this forum.

They seem to be more afraid of people here than death itself.

[Bolani Muslim]

My friend replied to me 

[....She was saying this while the prophet(saw) was on his death bed living his last weeks before departing back to Allah(swt). This was after the event of Ghadir Khum and shortly before the death of the prophet(pbuh)....]

No. This is a wrong and an inaccurate statement. I admit I made a mistake here by failing to express my words in an organized manner, sorry about that. Hopefully this time, I'll explain what I mean to make it clearer. Moreover, Aisha did not talk to those people while the prophet(saw) was alive on his death bed. Instead, the discussion to be specific took place after the death of the prophet(saw) as she clearly indicates in the context of the Hadith. What occurred while the prophet(saw) was alive is her presence with him where she says that she did not hear/see him appoint Ali by will as his successor.

Nevertheless, there are some critical points to touch on here.

[This is incorrect, rather the events of this discussion took place AFTER the Prophet (saw) died as is very obvious, in fact `A'ishah quite clearly describes the moment of the Prophet's (saw) death while talking to these men.]
That is correct, the discussion took place after the death of the prophet(saw). What is disagreed upon here is whether those people are followers of Abdullah Ibn Saba or people who accompanied the prophet(saw) and heard him declare Ali as his successor.

[I say this narration most probably took place AFTER `Abdullah ibn Saba' started telling people that the Prophet (saw) made Wasiyyah to `Ali just like Musa (as) made Wasiyyah to Yusha` (as), also him and his followers spread news of `Ali being in possession of secret knowledge given to him by Rasul-Allah (saw), which `Ali denied personally in several authentic narrations (probably in that same book your friend is quoting).]

The fundamental call of Abdullah Ibn Saba was on the godhood of 'Ali(as) during his preaches, and not solely his Imamah. In words, while he and the Saba'iyia did believe that Ali was the rightful successor of the prophet(saw), this was not however their fundamental call to their falsehood nor did they emphasize on it. But rather based on numerous traditions, their belief of Ali(as) being the rightful successor is only as a result of their main belief of Ali possessing divine attributes which was their main focus and call to the people.

For example:
http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/07/abd-allaah-bin-saba.html?m=1

Going back to the context of the Hadith, those people who are discussing with Aisha themselves do believe that the prophet(saw) appointed Ali(as) as his successor by will and are telling that to Aisha. If one says that these people are the Saba'iyia themselves, then this is baseless conjecture that needs evidence to support since historically there has been no evidence that the Saba'iyia came in contact with Aisha, not from the Seerah of the historians or the Rijal works of the scholars of Jarh Walta'dil. The only clear narrative of the Sabayia being explicitly mentioned in the books of history and rijal, both for Sunnis and Shi'as, to have a contact with someone was with Ali(as). Also considering that after the death of Uthman the Saba'yia have been well known as a distinctive sect and if they had direct contact and a conversation with Aisha just as they did with Ali(as), then it would have been numerously reported that the Sabaiyia did indeed have contact with her where she refuted their claims per Sunni view, just as it has been numerously recorded that they came in contact with Ali(as) where he burned them.

Nevertheless, br. Hassan Bolani , you did not hesitate to quickly get a Sunni response, yet when I clearly showed that the responder deliberately mistranslated the original Hadith and was wrong when he denied that the people discussing the will to be of the of successorship of Ali, all sudden you remain silent and ignore it?(likewise with the other posts I made on your page that you promised you would give me your thoughts and feedback on). How biased and subjective is that Akhi?

[Furkan]

How about inviting him to TS. This way, he can talk directly to the sunnis here

[Hani]

I reply Insha-Allah,

The brother says:
[The fundamental call of Abdullah Ibn Saba was on the godhood of 'Ali(as) during his preaches, and not solely his Imamah.]

As we said, ibn Saba' preached Wasiyyah, his famous statement was that our Prophet (saw) made Wasiyyah to `Ali just as Musa (as) made Wasiyyah to Yusha` (as). Through this he wished to establish a divine status for `Ali, pointing to his right  of being the only Imam in his time. As for `Ali's godhood, this was preached by Ibn Saba' at a later time, when one reviews all groups of Ghulaat, such as al-Mukhtar and abu al-Khattab and the rest, he will notice that these people don't just start directly by claiming godhood, nobody would accept their call if they did, first they start to greatly praise a person and attribute to him divine matters such as secret knowledge, miracles, infallibility etc... then later they would declare the person's godhood.

Now is this "Wasiyyah" preached by Ibn Saba' the same Wasiyyah that those men in that narration are mentioning? That's only a possibility, in fact the men could be discussing something very different than what you assume as an Imami Shia. They could be talking about inheritance, they could be talking about advice, they could be talking about a personal family matter he (saw) willed to `Ali concerning the household, they could be talking about some special information or knowledge he transmitted to him before his death, OR it could be they mean that he willed for him to take his place as leader such as Ibn Saba' preached.

We gather two things from the above:

A- Ibn Saba' preached Wasiyyah, he did not preach the traditional Imamah the twelvers believe in, this is why the Saba'i sect did not believe in the leadership of `Ali's children, the Imam for them was only `Ali and he shall return at the end of times to fill the earth with justice (so no Qa'im).

B- We do not know the kind of Wasiyyah these men were mentioning in front of `A'ishah.

The brother says:
[What is disagreed upon here is whether those people are followers of Abdullah Ibn Saba or people who accompanied the prophet(saw) and heard him declare Ali as his successor.]

I say, do not limit the possibilities.

As for them being followers of ibn Saba', this is very unlikely, as `A'ishah and most Sahabah would not receive such people in their houses or even address them, heck `Ali burned them the moment he heard they started preaching his godhood.

Also you should add the possibility that they are not Sahabah, `A'ishah lived quite a long time after the Prophet (saw) and after `Ali, these men may not even be from the dwellers of Madinah. Remember that the person who was present and is narrating this event is not a Sahabi.

He said:
[Going back to the context of the Hadith, those people who are discussing with Aisha themselves do believe that the prophet(saw) appointed Ali(as) as his successor by will and are telling that to Aisha.]

No it appears they did not do as you say they did.

The earliest source I stumbled upon for this narrative is that of Ibn Sa`d who died in 230 AH. His report says:

قِيلَ لأُمِّ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَائِشَةَ: أَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ  أَوْصَى إِلَى عَلِيٍّ؟

((It was said to the mother of believers `A'ishah: "Did the Prophet (saw) make a Wasiyyah to `Ali?"))

Even the quote from Bukhari who died in 256 AH does not imply what you suggested:

ذُكِرَ عِنْدَ عَائِشَةَ: أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ أَوْصَى إِلَى عَلِيٍّ

((It was mentioned in `A'ishah's presence that the Prophet (saw) made a Wasiyyah to `Ali.))

Aside from the fact that Ibn Sa`d's chain is stronger than Bukhari's, yet that doesn't matter since Ibn Sa`d's report explains Bukhari's report. Bukhari's report simply states that this matter was mentioned in her presence Ibn Sa`d's report actually shows us in what fashion was this topic brought up. This appears to be a question from some people in attendance, and they asked `A'ishah this since he (saw) died in her house so who better to ask about a Wasiyyah than her?

In Mustakhraj abi `Awanah who died in 316 AH, he brings this from another chain in which the Tabi`ee himself is asking her:

سَأَلْتُ أُمَّ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يَعْنِي عَائِشَةَ: هَلْ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ أَوْصَى إِلَى عَلِيٍّ؟

((I asked the mother of believers: "Had the Prophet (saw) made a Wasiyyah to `Ali?"))

My personal opinion is that the men were inquiring about these Saba'i rumors that were circulating in those late times.

Conclusion, this report cannot be used as argument.

[Hani]

What's this thing about mis-translating the Hadith? Was this referring to me?

[Ameen]

If he takes one narration from Bukhari then would he be willing to consider all the narrations from all the sources that indicate otherwise?

I seriously doubt it. Hadith-picking, like I told Ameen once.

You certainly told me but you don't believe and practice it yourself.

[Ameen]

I don't know whether u people can call it a blessing or not.
None among the shia is ready to debate people on this forum.

They seem to be more afraid of people here than death itself.

Afraid??? Ok. Are people here afraid to go and debate on S.C. Well the situation seems the same to me. What do you think???

[Bolani Muslim]

Do you have to ruin every thread Ameen?

[Khaled]

Afraid??? Ok. Are people here afraid to go and debate on S.C. Well the situation seems the same to me. What do you think???

You do realize almost everyone has been banned from there right?