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Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام

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Abu Muhammad

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2017, 02:23:01 PM »
Would it not make more sense to have these discussions on an sunni vs ahmediyya forum?

Not sure if a sunni vs shia forum is the right place.

I am not an Ahmadi, and Ahmadis aren't the only ones who believe in that Jesus is deceased. Many Muslims of various persuasions believe in it. So it is not an issue that is exclusive to Ahmadiyya. And the reason we are discussing it is because it is relevant to the issue of Ghayba if you care to read my OP

I have to agree with brother zaid_ibn_ali. Sure that you started off the discussion with the issue of ghaybah but later into the discussion, the focus is only on the ghaybah of Jesus (as). How does the ghaybah of Jesus (as) got anything to do with Sunni-Shia polemical discussion? Sounds more like Sunni-Ahmadiyya instead.

Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2017, 02:33:42 PM »
Would it not make more sense to have these discussions on an sunni vs ahmediyya forum?

Not sure if a sunni vs shia forum is the right place.

I am not an Ahmadi, and Ahmadis aren't the only ones who believe in that Jesus is deceased. Many Muslims of various persuasions believe in it. So it is not an issue that is exclusive to Ahmadiyya. And the reason we are discussing it is because it is relevant to the issue of Ghayba if you care to read my OP

Oh come on, spare us your taqiyya. Your site bashed almost everyone, but speak very highly of ghulam qadiyani. Here, we're familiar enough with shia taqiyya to smell your non shia taqiyya 😂😂

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2017, 03:15:33 PM »
Another proof that Jesus has died is the Verse of the Holy Qur'an:

وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّـهِ لَا يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ ﴿٢٠﴾ أَمْوَاتٌ غَيْرُ أَحْيَاءٍ ۖ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ أَيَّانَ يُبْعَثُونَ
Those whom they invoke besides Allah have not created anything, but are themselves created. (20) (They are) dead, lifeless, and they know not when they will be raised up. (Sura 16:20-21)

Incidentally, after Allah, Jesus is the person who is most invoked as an object of worship, since Christianity is the most widespread religion in the Earth. And Jesus is included in the category of "Min Dooni Allah" (Sura 5:116). So Allah says those that are invoked besides Him are Amwaat "Dead" Ghayru Ahyaa'in "Lifeless"


This verse is regarding Idols not Isa(as) for the following reasons:

1. Even Angels and Jinn were worshiped, so as per your logic, they should be dead.

And [mention] the Day when He will gather them all and then say to the angels, "Did these [people] used to worship you?" They will say, "Exalted are You! You, [O Allah ], are our benefactor not them. Rather, they used to worship the jinn; most of them were believers in them.(34:40-41)

But they have attributed to Allah partners - the jinn, while He has created them - and have fabricated for Him sons and daughters. Exalted is He and high above what they describe.(6:100)

2. The next verse after the verse you quoted says that its about people who didn't believe in hereafter.
Your god is one God. But those who do not believe in the Hereafter - their hearts are disapproving, and they are arrogant.(16:22).

These weren't Christians as they believe in hereafter. These were polytheists of Makkah, who believed in idols such as Lat, Manaat, Uzza, etc.

Quran clarifies this issue in another chapter, that the idol worshipers of Makkah are the ones who don't believe in hereafter:

So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza? And Manat, the third - the other one? Is the male for you and for Him the female? That, then, is an unjust division. They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance. Or is there for man whatever he wishes? Rather, to Allah belongs the Hereafter and the first [life]. And how many angels there are in the heavens whose intercession will not avail at all except [only] after Allah has permitted [it] to whom He wills and approves. Indeed, those who do not believe in the Hereafter name the angels female names,(53:19-27).


Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2017, 07:16:21 PM »
The discussion should not necessarily be regarding what's right/wrong. Point is, this topic is actually open to interpretation, no clear authentic Hadith or verse describe the exact condition of Isa. I'm okay with both positions but my personal one is the one listed above. Your mistake here brothers is that you're trying to settle it and reach an ultimate conclusion, that won't happen due to lack of evidence.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2017, 09:14:55 PM »

This verse is regarding Idols not Isa(as) for the following reasons:

1. Even Angels and Jinn were worshiped, so as per your logic, they should be dead.

And [mention] the Day when He will gather them all and then say to the angels, "Did these [people] used to worship you?" They will say, "Exalted are You! You, [O Allah ], are our benefactor not them. Rather, they used to worship the jinn; most of them were believers in them.(34:40-41)

But they have attributed to Allah partners - the jinn, while He has created them - and have fabricated for Him sons and daughters. Exalted is He and high above what they describe.(6:100)

2. The next verse after the verse you quoted says that its about people who didn't believe in hereafter.
Your god is one God. But those who do not believe in the Hereafter - their hearts are disapproving, and they are arrogant.(16:22).

These weren't Christians as they believe in hereafter. These were polytheists of Makkah, who believed in idols such as Lat, Manaat, Uzza, etc.

Quran clarifies this issue in another chapter, that the idol worshipers of Makkah are the ones who don't believe in hereafter:

So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza? And Manat, the third - the other one? Is the male for you and for Him the female? That, then, is an unjust division. They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance. Or is there for man whatever he wishes? Rather, to Allah belongs the Hereafter and the first [life]. And how many angels there are in the heavens whose intercession will not avail at all except [only] after Allah has permitted [it] to whom He wills and approves. Indeed, those who do not believe in the Hereafter name the angels female names,(53:19-27).



The problem is that idols will not be resurrected. This Verse is obviously concerning those humans that are worshiped aside from Allah. The Dhameer for Yub'athoon is "Amwaat" i.e., the objects of worship apart from Allah. Those objects of worship are unaware of when they themselves will be resurrected. Imam Baidawi has explained this in his Tafsir:

وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ أَيَّانَ يُبْعَثُون ولا يعلمون وقت بعثهم أو بعث عبدتهم
Nor do they know the time when they will be resurrected, or when their worshipers will be resurrected (Tafsir al-Baidawi v.3 p.223)

Idols will not be resurrected.

As for the next verse, there is no indication in it that فَالَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْآخِرَةِ are identical to وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّـهِ overcourse they may overlap. For example, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists worship dead people yet do not believe in Akhirah. It is not necessary to interpret that Allah is saying everyone who worships those beside Him are deniers of the Akhirah.

In fact you should know that majority of the idols that are worshiped are in fact images and icons that represent dead people. Even the Christians worship Jesus and represent him as an idol graven image. But in this passage (16:20-21) Allah is referring to their objects of worship that are originally human, because they are unaware when they will be resurrected, and inanimate idols are not resurrected.

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2017, 09:40:40 PM »
For those who believe that the Wafaah of Jesus was the Wafaah of sleep. As I pointed out earlier, in the Wafaah of sleep the soul is taken by Allah temporarily, while the body remains on the Earth. Some people give the example of As-Haab al-Kahf who were asleep for three centuries. They make an analogy that Jesus is likewise asleep for the past 2 millennia. However, the beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

رَأَيْتَكُمْ لَيْلَتَكُمْ هَذِهِ، فَإِنَّ رَأْسَ مِائَةِ سَنَةٍ مِنْهَا لاَ يَبْقَى مِمَّنْ هُوَ عَلَى ظَهْرِ الأَرْضِ أَحَدٌ
"Do you realize (the importance of) this night?" Nobody present on the surface of the earth tonight will be living after the completion of one hundred years from this night." (Bukhari)

According to the Holy Qur'an, Jesus said that a Messenger named Ahmad will come after his death:

وَمُبَشِّرًا بِرَسُولٍ يَأْتِي مِن بَعْدِي اسْمُهُ أَحْمَدُ
I give glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, his name is Ahmad (Sura 61:6)

Now this was a prophecy about Prophet Muhammad, whose other name is Ahmad صلى الله عليه وسلم

Jesus said "Min Ba'di" which can only mean after my death. If Jesus was still alive when the Prophet Muhammad was born, he would not have said "after me".

أَمْ كُنتُمْ شُهَدَاءَ إِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوبَ الْمَوْتُ إِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيهِ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن بَعْدِي
Or were you witnesses when death came to Jacob; when he said to his sons: "Who will you worship after me?" (2:133)

Jacob said who will you worship MIN BA'DI "after me" meaning "After my death"

Likewise the King Solomon prayed:

قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّن بَعْدِي

He said: "My Lord forgive me and grant me a Kingdom such as shall not be given to anyone after my death" (38:25)

Solomon said no one should be granted such a kingdom MIN BA'DI "after me" meaning "after my death"

MuslimK

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    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
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Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2017, 09:44:24 PM »
Respectfully disagree with you. Those Twelvers are not that sharp as you claimed if they pull out Jesus (as) ghayba's card to justify the ghayba of their 12th imam.

Nobody ridicule the ghayba for the sake of ghayba alone. What we find it perplex is that Twelvers claiming it is imperative for Allah (due to his Lutf) to send an infallible imam to guide human being at all times until qiyamah so that human being won't have any hujjah infront of Him (swt) later. But yet the number 12 is nowhere to be seen. What's the point of Allah sending a guide but yet you are deprieve of the so-called guidance. 

What makes it more ridiculous is that this guy has been missing for more than 1,100 years! And the gullible Twelvers will believe whatever justifications thrown to them no matter how absurd they might sound.

Jesus (as) went to ghayba but nobody claimed he (as) needs to guide people while in ghayba.

+1

Exactly!

When Twelvers give the example of Isa (as) and compare it with their 12th Imam then they really don't know their own beliefs.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

MuslimK

  • *****
  • Total likes: 227
  • +8/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2017, 09:58:39 PM »

I am not an Ahmadi, and Ahmadis aren't the only ones who believe in that Jesus is deceased. Many Muslims of various persuasions believe in it. So it is not an issue that is exclusive to Ahmadiyya. And the reason we are discussing it is because it is relevant to the issue of Ghayba if you care to read my OP

Not an Ahmadi?You wrote this on your blog:

A common but baseless accusation against the Ahmadiyya, or “Qadianis” (followers of Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) is that they follow a completely different religion than Islam; believing in a different god, a different prophet, a different scripture, and different rites. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth; the Ahmadiyya are a sect of Islam who adhere to the Six Articles of Faith and practice the Five Pillars of Islam. But in an attempt to whip up a frenzy among the mobs of ignorant and illiterate Muslims and to poison their minds against their co-religionists, the Mulla asserts that the “Qadianis” believe that Mirza is god and are thus polytheists and heretics of the worst kind. http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/deobandi-ashraf-thanwi-no-difference.html
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2017, 11:53:00 PM »
That sounds like something an Ahmadi would write.
Shia usually bring up Khadir and Ilyas before ever mentioning Isa.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2017, 12:06:58 AM »
That sounds like something an Ahmadi would write.
Shia usually bring up Khadir and Ilyas before ever mentioning Isa.

😂😂 wake up Hani, a quick read on his site then you should be able to tell that he is a qadiyani.

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2017, 01:07:59 AM »
Not an Ahmadi?You wrote this on your blog:

A common but baseless accusation against the Ahmadiyya, or “Qadianis” (followers of Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) is that they follow a completely different religion than Islam; believing in a different god, a different prophet, a different scripture, and different rites. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth; the Ahmadiyya are a sect of Islam who adhere to the Six Articles of Faith and practice the Five Pillars of Islam. But in an attempt to whip up a frenzy among the mobs of ignorant and illiterate Muslims and to poison their minds against their co-religionists, the Mulla asserts that the “Qadianis” believe that Mirza is god and are thus polytheists and heretics of the worst kind. http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/deobandi-ashraf-thanwi-no-difference.html

I'm not an Ahmadi, but I disagree with them being declared as non-Muslims. As i wrote in this quote, they are our fellow co-religionists.

That sounds like something an Ahmadi would write.
Shia usually bring up Khadir and Ilyas before ever mentioning Isa.

Very few Muslims believe that Khidr and Ilias عليهما السلام are alive. And when it comes to Khidr, they say that he was met by such and such shaykh as if he is walking around the Earth unconcealed, so I question if that would qualify as a Ghayba. In any event, vast majority of Sunnis, especially Salafis, only believe in the Ghayba of Jesus so I disagree with you that a Shi'ite would first bring up Khidr and Ilias before mentioning Isa عليهم السلام

Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2017, 02:29:20 AM »
That sounds like something an Ahmadi would write.
Shia usually bring up Khadir and Ilyas before ever mentioning Isa.

😂😂 wake up Hani, a quick read on his site then you should be able to tell that he is a qadiyani.

May not be, it could be he's an ex Qadiyani or simply influenced by them. I haven't opened his website yet, InshaAllah when time permits.

I add,  the book I translated on continuation of prophethood has large section and quotations from Ghulam's books.

No need to accuse people, just discuss his ideas and present evidence.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2017, 04:14:55 AM »
No need to accuse people, just discuss his ideas and present evidence.

well this forum is shia sunni forum, any other topic should be discouraged or kept to minimum. He will end up create lots of thread and it will distract the main purpose of why this forum is setup in the first place. If he want to start sunni vs qadiyani/qadiyani influenced discussion theres other forum.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 04:17:19 AM by Hadrami »

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2017, 04:26:38 AM »
No need to accuse people, just discuss his ideas and present evidence.

well this forum is shia sunni forum, any other topic should be discouraged or kept to minimum. He will end up create lots of thread and it will distract the main purpose of why this forum is setup in the first place. If he want to start sunni vs qadiyani/qadiyani influenced discussion theres other forum.

Actually I never initiated any "Qadiyani" or "Qadiyani influenced" discussion. Other users are responsible for directly asking me about Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani and thus swerving away from the topic. Every discussion that I have initiated is concerning Shi'ism and Shi'ite doctrines, such as Ghayba and Imamah

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2017, 04:40:19 AM »
Now for those who imagine that I started this topic on Ghayba of Jesus to discuss about "Qadiyanism" instead of Shi'ism; in fact, as I made quite clear, this discussion revolves around the Shi'ite concept of Ghayba. I said that the Shi'ites defend their irrational belief in the Ghayba of their 12th Imam by citing the Ghayba of Jesus. Those who are not convinced of this should now look at this article from Shiapen.com

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/mahdi/and-ghaibah-of-isa-similarities.html

which is titled: "Chapter Eleven – The similarities between the Jews mocking the Ghaibah of Isa (as) and the Nawasib mocking the Ghaibah of Mahdi (as)"


Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2017, 04:42:32 AM »
Now for those who imagine that I started this topic on Ghayba of Jesus to discuss about "Qadiyanism" instead of Shi'ism; in fact, as I made quite clear, this discussion revolves around the Shi'ite concept of Ghayba.

and yet you titled it "challenge to sunnis" buddy 😂😂

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2017, 04:50:30 AM »
Now for those who imagine that I started this topic on Ghayba of Jesus to discuss about "Qadiyanism" instead of Shi'ism; in fact, as I made quite clear, this discussion revolves around the Shi'ite concept of Ghayba.

and yet you titled it "challenge to sunnis" buddy 😂😂

That's the point. Sunnis need to be challenged to re-evaluate their belief in the ghayba of Jesus because that is the doctrine which opens the door for the ghayba of the 12th Imam.

Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2017, 04:54:43 AM »
Now for those who imagine that I started this topic on Ghayba of Jesus to discuss about "Qadiyanism" instead of Shi'ism; in fact, as I made quite clear, this discussion revolves around the Shi'ite concept of Ghayba.

and yet you titled it "challenge to sunnis" buddy 😂😂

That's the point. Sunnis need to be challenged to re-evaluate their belief in the ghayba of Jesus because that is the doctrine which opens the door for the ghayba of the 12th Imam.

Dont get me wrong, you can debate shia, because this is the purpose of this forum, but if you want to debate sunni using your qadiyani influenced belief, find another forum. Im sure there is qadiyani vs sunni forum out there. If a christian user comes here to do islam vs christian debate, i'll sayvthe same thing. This is not the forum.

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2017, 04:59:51 AM »
My conviction that Jesus of Nazareth is dead is not a "Qadiani influenced belief". This an ancient belief, and there were many great Imams and scholars who believed in the death of Jesus before Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani came along and announced the same thing in the last decade of the 19th century. On this forum, Hani is one of the prominent people who likewise believes that Jesus is deceased based on his research and understanding of the Qur'an al-karim

Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2017, 07:47:47 AM »
My conviction that Jesus of Nazareth is dead is not a "Qadiani influenced belief". This an ancient belief, and there were many great Imams and scholars who believed in the death of Jesus before Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani came along and announced the same thing in the last decade of the 19th century. On this forum, Hani is one of the prominent people who likewise believes that Jesus is deceased based on his research and understanding of the Qur'an al-karim

you dont get my point do you? Doesnt matter what hani or you belief about Isa AS. This is a sunni vs shia forum, not sunni vs sunni or vs christian etc. There are forum for those type of discussion

 

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