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Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام

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ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2017, 08:07:41 AM »

you dont get my point do you? Doesnt matter what hani or you belief about Isa AS. This is a sunni vs shia forum, not sunni vs sunni or vs christian etc. There are forum for those type of discussion

Sir even though it is my intention to focus on discussing Twelver Shi'ism and related issues, I must point out the the four rules for this forum do not restrict to any specific type of religious discussion. As far as I can discern, this forum is indeed dedicated to discussing Twelver Shi'ism, but there is no disclaimer that it is from specifically a Sunni point of view. In any event, I have always been wary of people who want to restrict the scope of any discussion due to their own intellectual disability.

Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2017, 11:01:53 AM »
In any event, I have always been wary of people who want to restrict the scope of any discussion due to their own intellectual disability.[/size][/font]

ouuch 😂 here you are with a qadiyani imamah belief which is a 99% shia imamah.

Tell me my clever friend, who was the imam or good messiah or whatever you want to call that divinely appointed person which teach, guide Prophet shallallahu alayhi wasallam? I'll pretend now that i ask a shia since your belief about imamah is a hacked version of shia imamah. Dont be an intellectual disabled person by not answering that simple question OK?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 11:05:26 AM by Hadrami »

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2017, 11:17:13 AM »


ouuch 😂 here you are with a qadiyani imamah belief which is a 99% shia imamah.

Tell me my clever friend, who was the imam or good messiah or whatever you want to call that divinely appointed person which teach, guide Prophet shallallahu alayhi wasallam? I'll pretend now that i ask a shia since your belief about imamah is a hacked version of shia imamah. Dont be an intellectual disabled person by not answering that simple question OK?

Your "simple question" has so many grammatical mistakes I honestly don't even know what you are asking. Please rephrase it.

Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2017, 01:06:59 PM »


ouuch 😂 here you are with a qadiyani imamah belief which is a 99% shia imamah.

Tell me my clever friend, who was the imam or good messiah or whatever you want to call that divinely appointed person which teach, guide Prophet shallallahu alayhi wasallam? I'll pretend now that i ask a shia since your belief about imamah is a hacked version of shia imamah. Dont be an intellectual disabled person by not answering that simple question OK?

Your "simple question" has so many grammatical mistakes I honestly don't even know what you are asking. Please rephrase it.

The usual grammar diversion :D I quote the question again, "Tell me my clever friend, who was the imam or good messiah or whatever you want to call that divinely appointed person WHO TAUGHT, GUIDED Prophet shallallahu alayhi wasallam?"

Hopefully an intellectual disabled person can understand that. Good grammar enough?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:09:55 PM by Hadrami »

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2017, 01:14:09 PM »


The usual grammar diversion :D I quote the question again, "Tell me my clever friend, who was the imam or good messiah or whatever you want to call that divinely appointed person WHO TAUGHT, GUIDED Prophet shallallahu alayhi wasallam?"

Hopefully an intellectual disabled person can understand that. Good grammar enough?

Your question still doesn't make sense. I have to assume English is your second language. I advise you to work on that grammar.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2017, 02:08:10 PM »
Now for those who imagine that I started this topic on Ghayba of Jesus to discuss about "Qadiyanism" instead of Shi'ism; in fact, as I made quite clear, this discussion revolves around the Shi'ite concept of Ghayba.

and yet you titled it "challenge to sunnis" buddy 😂😂

That's the point. Sunnis need to be challenged to re-evaluate their belief in the ghayba of Jesus because that is the doctrine which opens the door for the ghayba of the 12th Imam.

Do you think that by disputing the ghayba of Jesus (as) will close the door for the ghayba of the 12th imam either? I don't think so.

There will always be 2 thoughts on this from Sunni side. Jumhur view of ghayba Jesus (as) and minority view of dead Jesus (as).  Whenever we argue with Twelvers on dead Jesus, they will always come back and say the prevalent believe among Sunni is Jesus (as) went to ghayba and not dead. They will accuse us of pick-and-choose whatever view that suit us.

Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2017, 02:15:15 PM »


The usual grammar diversion :D I quote the question again, "Tell me my clever friend, who was the imam or good messiah or whatever you want to call that divinely appointed person WHO TAUGHT, GUIDED Prophet shallallahu alayhi wasallam?"

Hopefully an intellectual disabled person can understand that. Good grammar enough?

Your question still doesn't make sense. I have to assume English is your second language. I advise you to work on that grammar.

haha as usual, when an intellectual disabled qadiyani or shia or whatever deviant dimwit cant answer a simple question, theres always a diversion tactic to flee the question 😂😂

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2017, 04:07:25 PM »


The usual grammar diversion :D I quote the question again, "Tell me my clever friend, who was the imam or good messiah or whatever you want to call that divinely appointed person WHO TAUGHT, GUIDED Prophet shallallahu alayhi wasallam?"

Hopefully an intellectual disabled person can understand that. Good grammar enough?

Your question still doesn't make sense. I have to assume English is your second language. I advise you to work on that grammar.

You seem quite intelligent & articulate. I just don't get why out of all the personalities that existed in history, you say mirza ghulam was a messiah. What did he & his followers contribute to get this accolade?
Is the current head of the ahmadiyya jamaat someone I can or can't live without following?
What does he offer that I can't get from mainstream muslims?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2017, 06:17:52 PM »
For those who believe that the Wafaah of Jesus was the Wafaah of sleep. As I pointed out earlier, in the Wafaah of sleep the soul is taken by Allah temporarily, while the body remains on the Earth. Some people give the example of As-Haab al-Kahf who were asleep for three centuries. They make an analogy that Jesus is likewise asleep for the past 2 millennia. However, the beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

رَأَيْتَكُمْ لَيْلَتَكُمْ هَذِهِ، فَإِنَّ رَأْسَ مِائَةِ سَنَةٍ مِنْهَا لاَ يَبْقَى مِمَّنْ هُوَ عَلَى ظَهْرِ الأَرْضِ أَحَدٌ
"Do you realize (the importance of) this night?" Nobody present on the surface of the earth tonight will be living after the completion of one hundred years from this night." (Bukhari).
I won't address the arguments already refuted in the links I gave in previous posts. As for the hadeeth from Bukhari, then we don't believe Isa(as) is on earth. We believe he is in Heaven/Sky.

Ibn Athiya (died in 542 From Hijraa explained in his tafseer “Al Muharrar Al Wajiz”

أجمعت الأمة على ما تضمنه الحديث المتواتر من أن عيسى في السماء حي، وأنه سينزل في آخر الزمان فيقتل الخنزير ويكسر الصليب ويقتل الدجال ويفيض العدل وتظهر به الملة – ملة محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم – ويحج البيت …

All muslim agree to have faith upon the content of hadith mutawatir (from plenty of valid chain of narrations) that Prophet Isa is still alive in heaven/Sky. He will descend at end of time, kill the hogs, break the cross, kill Dajjal, impose justice, and the religion of Muhammad will win over it’s enemies with his lead, and he also perform hajj…” (Al-Muharrar Al-Wajiz, 3:143).

قال ابن كثير رحمه الله في " تفسير ابن كثير " ( 2 / 47 ) : " فإن المسيح عليه السلام لمَّا رفعه الله إلى السماء : تَفَرَّقت أصحابه شيَعًا بعده
Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said in Tafseer Ibn Katheer (2/47): When Allah took the Messiah (peace be upon him) up to heaven/sky, his followers split into sects after he was gone.

So, again the evidence you used turned out to be invalid, because the hadeeth talks about people of earth not Sky/Heaven.

Quote
According to the Holy Qur'an, Jesus said that a Messenger named Ahmad will come after his death:

وَمُبَشِّرًا بِرَسُولٍ يَأْتِي مِن بَعْدِي اسْمُهُ أَحْمَدُ
I give glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, his name is Ahmad (Sura 61:6)

Now this was a prophecy about Prophet Muhammad, whose other name is Ahmad صلى الله عليه وسلم

Jesus said "Min Ba'di" which can only mean after my death. If Jesus was still alive when the Prophet Muhammad was born, he would not have said "after me".

أَمْ كُنتُمْ شُهَدَاءَ إِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوبَ الْمَوْتُ إِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيهِ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن بَعْدِي
Or were you witnesses when death came to Jacob; when he said to his sons: "Who will you worship after me?" (2:133)

Jacob said who will you worship MIN BA'DI "after me" meaning "After my death"

Likewise the King Solomon prayed:

قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّن بَعْدِي

He said: "My Lord forgive me and grant me a Kingdom such as shall not be given to anyone after my death" (38:25)

Solomon said no one should be granted such a kingdom MIN BA'DI "after me" meaning "after my death"[/size]
Again your argument is weak and irrational. You say it ONLY means after his death, but the correct answer is that, it can ALSO mean after my departure.

Like how Ibn Katheer used the word Ba'adah for Isa(as).

" فإن المسيح عليه السلام لمَّا رفعه الله إلى السماء : تَفَرَّقت أصحابه شيَعًا بعده
Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said in Tafseer Ibn Katheer (2/47): When Allah took the Messiah (peace be upon him) up to heaven/sky, his followers split into sects after he was gone.

Also take a note that, Min Ba'di doesn't necessarily apply the condition of death. For example Prophet(Saws) said:

النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ لِعَلِيٍّ ‏ "‏ أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي ‏"‏
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: that the Prophet (ﷺ) said to 'Ali: "You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa, except that there is no Prophet after me." [Jam'i al-Tirmidhi. Book 49, Hadith 4095; Sahih]

Prophet(saws) compared Ali(ra) to Haroon(as) who was Prophet during time of Musa(as), that is why Prophet(saws) said that there will be no Prophet after him, be it in his lifetime or death. Haroon(as) died during the lifetime of Musa(as), but when Prophet Muhammad(saws) compared him to Ali(ra), he had to end any possibility of doubt regarding finality of Prophethood, be it in his life time or after his death, hence he used the words "AFTER ME" which aren't restricted of death alone.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 06:19:41 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2017, 07:21:18 PM »

This verse is regarding Idols not Isa(as) for the following reasons:

1. Even Angels and Jinn were worshiped, so as per your logic, they should be dead.

And [mention] the Day when He will gather them all and then say to the angels, "Did these [people] used to worship you?" They will say, "Exalted are You! You, [O Allah ], are our benefactor not them. Rather, they used to worship the jinn; most of them were believers in them.(34:40-41)

But they have attributed to Allah partners - the jinn, while He has created them - and have fabricated for Him sons and daughters. Exalted is He and high above what they describe.(6:100)

2. The next verse after the verse you quoted says that its about people who didn't believe in hereafter.
Your god is one God. But those who do not believe in the Hereafter - their hearts are disapproving, and they are arrogant.(16:22).

These weren't Christians as they believe in hereafter. These were polytheists of Makkah, who believed in idols such as Lat, Manaat, Uzza, etc.

Quran clarifies this issue in another chapter, that the idol worshipers of Makkah are the ones who don't believe in hereafter:

So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza? And Manat, the third - the other one? Is the male for you and for Him the female? That, then, is an unjust division. They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance. Or is there for man whatever he wishes? Rather, to Allah belongs the Hereafter and the first [life]. And how many angels there are in the heavens whose intercession will not avail at all except [only] after Allah has permitted [it] to whom He wills and approves. Indeed, those who do not believe in the Hereafter name the angels female names,(53:19-27).



The problem is that idols will not be resurrected. This Verse is obviously concerning those humans that are worshiped aside from Allah. The Dhameer for Yub'athoon is "Amwaat" i.e., the objects of worship apart from Allah. Those objects of worship are unaware of when they themselves will be resurrected. Imam Baidawi has explained this in his Tafsir:

وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ أَيَّانَ يُبْعَثُون ولا يعلمون وقت بعثهم أو بعث عبدتهم
Nor do they know the time when they will be resurrected, or when their worshipers will be resurrected (Tafsir al-Baidawi v.3 p.223)

Idols will not be resurrected.

Brother, try to be objective. You lost the essence of my response, and you indulged in the point which was of lesser importance, even though I can quote Tafaseer which says they are idols, but for arguments sake lets skip this.

You said the verse was referring to people who are worshipped alongside Allah NOT idols. But you missed the point I made that there were living things which were worshipped by people, such as Jinn and Angels. So obviously, these get excluded from that verse even though they are worsipped because they are alive. Likewise we say Isa(as) also is excluded from that verse because he is alive, even though he is worshipped. The verse isn't specifically addressing the Christians.


Quote
In fact you should know that majority of the idols that are worshiped are in fact images and icons that represent dead people. Even the Christians worship Jesus and represent him as an idol graven image. But in this passage (16:20-21) Allah is referring to their objects of worship that are originally human, because they are unaware when they will be resurrected, and inanimate idols are not resurrected.

And yes I agree with you on the point that idols that were worshiped by people, represented pious people.

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: All the idols which were worshiped by the people of Noah were worshiped by the Arabs later on. As for the idol Wadd, it was worshiped by the tribe of Kalb at Daumat-al-Jandal; Suwa` was the idol of (the tribe of) Hudhail; Yaghouth was worshiped by (the tribe of) Murad and then by Bani Ghutaif at Al-Jurf near Saba; Ya`uq was the idol of Hamdan, and Nasr was the idol of Himyar, the branch of Dhi-al-Kala`. The names (of the idols) formerly belonged to some PIOUS MEN of the people of Noah, and when they died Satan inspired their people to (prepare and place idols at the places where they used to sit, and to call those idols by their names. The people did so, but the idols were not worshiped till those people (who initiated them) had died and the origin of the idols had become obscure, whereupon people began worshiping them. {Sahih al-Bukhari , volume 6, book 60, Hadith 442}.

Quote
As for the next verse, there is no indication in it that فَالَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْآخِرَةِ are identical to وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّـهِ overcourse they may overlap. For example, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists worship dead people yet do not believe in Akhirah. It is not necessary to interpret that Allah is saying everyone who worships those beside Him are deniers of the Akhirah.
You seem to have misunderstood my argument. May Allah grant you proper understanding. I never claimed that everyone who worships those beside Allah deny Akhirah, not at all. Nor does the verse which I quoted as supportive evidence for my explanation:{Indeed, those who do not believe in the Hereafter name the angels female names,(53:27)}, this verse doesn't mean that all those who do not believe in the Hereafter, name the angels female names, rather the verse is addressing a specific people. Likewise, What I claimed was that those addressed in that verse didn't believe in Akhirah(i.e polytheists of Makkah) however the Christians are known to believe in Hereafter, hence they are not the ones who were mentioned in this verse nor the one prior to it.

Here is the proof that Christians even though in general they worship Isa(as) but in general they even believe in Hereafter, which again proves that they were not the ones mentioned in the verse you used.

We read in the following hadeeth that Christians during the lifetime of Prophet(Saws) believed in hereafter.
حَدَّثَنَا سُوَيْدُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ سُلَيْمٍ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ خُثَيْمٍ، عَنْ أَبِي الزُّبَيْرِ، عَنْ جَابِرٍ، قَالَ لَمَّا رَجَعَتْ إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ مُهَاجِرَةُ الْبَحْرِ قَالَ ‏"‏ أَلاَ تُحَدِّثُونِي بِأَعَاجِيبِ مَا رَأَيْتُمْ بِأَرْضِ الْحَبَشَةِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ فِتْيَةٌ مِنْهُمْ بَلَى يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ بَيْنَا نَحْنُ جُلُوسٌ مَرَّتْ بِنَا عَجُوزٌ مِنْ عَجَائِزِ رَهَابِينِهِمْ تَحْمِلُ عَلَى رَأْسِهَا قُلَّةً مِنْ مَاءٍ فَمَرَّتْ بِفَتًى مِنْهُمْ فَجَعَلَ إِحْدَى يَدَيْهِ بَيْنَ كَتِفَيْهَا ثُمَّ دَفَعَهَا فَخَرَّتْ عَلَى رُكْبَتَيْهَا فَانْكَسَرَتْ قُلَّتُهَا فَلَمَّا ارْتَفَعَتِ الْتَفَتَتْ إِلَيْهِ فَقَالَتْ سَوْفَ تَعْلَمُ يَا غُدَرُ إِذَا وَضَعَ اللَّهُ الْكُرْسِيَّ وَجَمَعَ الأَوَّلِينَ وَالآخِرِينَ وَتَكَلَّمَتِ الأَيْدِي وَالأَرْجُلُ بِمَا كَانُوا يَكْسِبُونَ فَسَوْفَ تَعْلَمُ كَيْفَ أَمْرِي وَأَمْرُكَ عِنْدَهُ غَدًا ‏.‏ قَالَ يَقُولُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏"‏ صَدَقَتْ صَدَقَتْ كَيْفَ يُقَدِّسُ اللَّهُ أُمَّةً لاَ يُؤْخَذُ لِضَعِيفِهِمْ مِنْ شَدِيدِهِمْ ‏"
It was narrated that Jabir said: “When the emigrants who had crossed the sea came back to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), he said: ‘Why don’t you tell me of the strange things that you saw in the land of Abyssinia?’ Some young men among them said: ‘Yes, O Messenger of Allah. While we were sitting, one of their elderly nuns came past, carrying a vessel of water on her head. She passed by some of their youth, one of whom placed his hand between her shoulders and pushed her. She fell on her knees and her vessel broke. When she stood up, she turned to him and said: “You will come to know, O traitor, that when Allah sets up the Footstool and gathers the first and the last, and hands and feet speak of what they used to earn, you will come to know your case and my case in His presence soon.’” The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: ‘She spoke the truth, she spoke the truth. How can Allah purify any people (of sin) when they do not support their weak from their strong?’” [Sunan Ibn Majah 4010; Grading:Hasan]

We read in Bible about the Day of Judgement as follows:
For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body. [Corinthians 5:10]

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2017, 11:30:26 PM »
You seem quite intelligent & articulate. I just don't get why out of all the personalities that existed in history, you say mirza ghulam was a messiah. What did he & his followers contribute to get this accolade?
Is the current head of the ahmadiyya jamaat someone I can or can't live without following?
What does he offer that I can't get from mainstream muslims?

Firstly I am praising the work of Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani specifically in helping to rejuvenate the spirit of Islam at a time when Muslims were at their darkest period. He was the one who ushered in the Islamic revival that lasted until the late 20th century. As for the Ahmadiyya Jamaat at present, I am not praising them or telling anyone to join them, as I myself am not a part of that Jamaat. Yes, maybe at one point in history they were doing great services to Islam in repelling the onslaught of Christian missionaries, writing books in English and other languages disseminating information about Islam while the rest of the Muslim sects were in hibernation mode. But now things have changed and many other sects and movements have risen while the Ahmadiyya Jamaat seems to have lost its original dynamism. So make no mistake, I am not telling anyone to believe in Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani or join the Ahmadiyya Jamaat. I only consider him a great reformer and offered a beautiful service to Islam in his time when it was greatly needed.

In fact you will see that now other Muslim sects and movements are copying his ideas which he was criticised for in his own time, i.e., that Muslims should not be violent and instead spread Islam through peaceful means, that they should be loyal to the governments they live under, that they should give preference to the study of the Holy Qur'an and not prefer a Hadith over the verdict of the Holy Qur'an, etc. When Ghulam Ahmad was preaching these ideas, in his time the Ulama were severely condemning him as a "British agent", but now that Islam is under so much scrutiny and criticised as being a violent religion with terrorism and all that, the spiritual progeny of those very Ulama are coming out giving fatawa against terrorism, suicide bombing, rebelling against the government, etc. But who was the original person who came out with these ideas when they weren't popular? Give credit to where credit is due.

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2017, 11:47:17 PM »
I won't address the arguments already refuted in the links I gave in previous posts. As for the hadeeth from Bukhari, then we don't believe Isa(as) is on earth. We believe he is in Heaven/Sky.

Ibn Athiya (died in 542 From Hijraa explained in his tafseer “Al Muharrar Al Wajiz”

أجمعت الأمة على ما تضمنه الحديث المتواتر من أن عيسى في السماء حي، وأنه سينزل في آخر الزمان فيقتل الخنزير ويكسر الصليب ويقتل الدجال ويفيض العدل وتظهر به الملة – ملة محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم – ويحج البيت …

All muslim agree to have faith upon the content of hadith mutawatir (from plenty of valid chain of narrations) that Prophet Isa is still alive in heaven/Sky. He will descend at end of time, kill the hogs, break the cross, kill Dajjal, impose justice, and the religion of Muhammad will win over it’s enemies with his lead, and he also perform hajj…” (Al-Muharrar Al-Wajiz, 3:143).

There isn't a single Hadith from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم where he says that Allah raised Jesus up into the sky, and that Jesus is presently alive in the sky with his flesh and blood body. Not a single Hadith. At most you may have some narrations from Companions or Imams, but not a single Marfoo Hadith that Jesus was raised alive in his body to Heaven.

Yes, there are Ahadith about the Nuzul (descent) of Jesus. Firstly, reports about Nuzul of Jesus do not necessarily prove that at present he is living in the sky. Secondly, Nuzul does not always mean coming down from the sky. It also carries the significance of "to facilitate, to grant, to provide":

وَ اَنۡزَلَ لَکُمۡ مِّنَ الۡاَنۡعَامِ ثَمٰنِیَۃَ اَزۡوَاجٍ
And He sent down for you eight pairs of cattle (pair of sheep, goats, camels, and oxen). (39:6)

Even if for the sake of argument we say that there are Ahadith from which we can infer that Jesus will descend from the clouds before Judgment Day, that is logically not a proof that he was (a) raised up into the sky in his physical body and (b) that he is presently alive in the sky with his physical body

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2017, 01:27:39 AM »

Brother, try to be objective. You lost the essence of my response, and you indulged in the point which was of lesser importance, even though I can quote Tafaseer which says they are idols, but for arguments sake lets skip this.

You said the verse was referring to people who are worshipped alongside Allah NOT idols. But you missed the point I made that there were living things which were worshipped by people, such as Jinn and Angels. So obviously, these get excluded from that verse even though they are worsipped because they are alive. Likewise we say Isa(as) also is excluded from that verse because he is alive, even though he is worshipped. The verse isn't specifically addressing the Christians.

Keep in mind that the Verse (16:20) says "and those whom they invoke besides Allah", it is general and cannot be restricted to Asnaam only. If you read Tafsir Ruh al Maani (v.14 p.120) of Allama Alusi, he admits that Jesus is included within "Amwaat".

أموات عموم المجاز ليشمل ما كان له حياة ثم مات كعزير أو سيموت كعيسى والملائكة عليهم الصلاة والسلام




Now Allama Alusi has said that Jesus and the Angels are metaphorically included in "Amwaat" because death will come to them eventually. However, that is based on his assumption that Jesus is alive, otherwise there is not explicit indication that "Amwaat" means anything other than those that are already dead.

As for your point about the Jinn and Angels, then yes, if there are any Jinn that are worshiped besides Allah then they too are dead. Since we dont know precisely about the world and reality of Jinn, it is futile to speculate which Jinn are worshiped and whether they are still alive or dead. The Verse (16:21) says that those dead objects of worship are unaware of when they shall be raised up, meaning resurrected from their graves. As far as I know, Angels will not be raised up from graves, so this Verse is not concerning them primarily, just like it is not concerning idols since idols are neither buried in graves nor will they be resurrected on Judgment Day. And are the deceased Jinnaat buried in graves? We don't know best not to speculate. But we know for sure that the human objects of worship, including Jesus, are indeed buried in graves and will be resurrected on Judgment Day. Hence, it has to be Jesus in the first place who is meant by "and those whom they invoke besides Allah".



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You seem to have misunderstood my argument. May Allah grant you proper understanding. I never claimed that everyone who worships those beside Allah deny Akhirah, not at all. Nor does the verse which I quoted as supportive evidence for my explanation:{Indeed, those who do not believe in the Hereafter name the angels female names,(53:27)}, this verse doesn't mean that all those who do not believe in the Hereafter, name the angels female names, rather the verse is addressing a specific people. Likewise, What I claimed was that those addressed in that verse didn't believe in Akhirah(i.e polytheists of Makkah) however the Christians are known to believe in Hereafter, hence they are not the ones who were mentioned in this verse nor the one prior to it.

I understood your point perfectly. You are arguing that the polytheists who invoke those besides Allah mentioned in 16:20 are specifically those polytheists who deny the Akhirah. I answered you by saying that is a leap and speculation on your part. You are trying to tie 16:22 with 16:20 but that is a leap. It is never explicitly stated that those who invoke others besides Allah (16:20) are identical to the people who deny the Akhirah. I can give you so many examples from the Holy Quran where Allah is talking about one type of people in 1 Verse and then mentions a completely different people in the subsequent Verse, or even within the same Verse. Hence your argument is weak and based on speculation.

I don't know if you are influenced by the Salafi and Tawhidi fikr, but if you are, you should know that your own Mufassireen quote this passage (16:20-21) as a proof against the grave worshipers who worship deceased Awliya as a proof against them that they too are mushrikeen, not only those who worship Asnaam and awthaan. I can quote to you from many books on this point. Then if this premise is accepted that the passage is referring to human beings including Ambiya and Awliya that are invoked besides Allah, there is no possibility of denying that Jesus is not included.

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2017, 02:46:09 AM »
A few more implicit proofs from Qur'an al-Karim that sayyidina Masih عليه السلام is dead:

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ فَلَبِثَ فِيهِمْ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ إِلَّا خَمْسِينَ عَامًا
And We sent Noah to his people, so he remained among them 1000 years less 50 years (29:14)

The age of Noah was 950. Authentic Ahadith describe him as the eldest of the Prophets:

عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ ، قَالَ : " جَاءَ مَلَكُ الْمَوْتِ إِلَى نُوحٍ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ ، فَقَالَ : يَا أَطْوَلَ النَّبِيِّينَ عُمْرًا
Ibn Abi’d-Dunya narrated in az-Zuhd (no. 358) with his isnaad from Anas ibn Maalik (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: The Angel of Death came to Nooh (peace be upon him) and said: O longest-lived of the Prophets

On Judgment Day, Adam, when asked to intercede, will say to the people:

عَلَيْكُمْ بِنُوحٍ فَإِنَّهُ أَوَّلُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَأَكْبَرُهُمْ
Go to Noah, for he is the first of the Prophets and the eldest of them (al-Bazar & al-Tawhid ibn Ibn Khuzayma)

But if Jesus was raised up to heaven, alive in his body, and has not yet died, he would be aged over 2,000 years. And who knows when he will descend back into this Earth. Whenever that happens, he will surely be much older than Noah, at least twice his age!

وَمَن نُّعَمِّرْهُ نُنَكِّسْهُ فِي الْخَلْقِ ۖ أَفَلَا يَعْقِلُونَ
And he whom We grant long life, We reverse him in creation [weakness after creation]. Will they not then understand? (36:68)

The Ahadith about the descent of Jesus that he will come, fight the Dajjal, break the cross, slay the swine, lead the Muslims for 40 years, etc., means he will have to be a man of strength. If someone who is over a 100 years old is reversed in strength to weakness, what about someone who is 2,000 + years old?!

Then Allah says that He is ordering mankind to live on the Earth:

قَالَ فِيهَا تَحْيَوْنَ وَفِيهَا تَمُوتُونَ وَمِنْهَا تُخْرَجُونَ
He said: "Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and from it you shall be brought out (resurrected)" (7:25)

But if Jesus, a human being and son of Adam, has been living in the sky for the past 2,000 years, it is a contravention of this Verse where Allah decrees that all mankind is meant to live in and die on the Earth (not the sky).

Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2017, 07:29:37 AM »
Salam,

I'm happy with the way this conversation is going as people are using evidence and discussing ideas. Again, this won't be settled as so far all evidence can be interpreted in different ways so nobody should bother going out of their way to convince the other party.

Again, the Shia do not rely on `Isa's (as) life to prove their 12th Imam's Ghaybah, they first resort to Ilyas (as) & Khadir (as).

As far as these two prophets, no authentic narration is available. It is all fabrications and nonsense by storytellers. Still, some Sunni scholars throughout history believed it, some still do especially among Sufi circles. These will be quoted no matter what, we simply say they are wrong and they do not represent us, most importantly they lack evidence.

As far as `Isa (as), let's adopt the position of his life for the sake of the argument. First of all, his ascension and story have been mentioned in the Qur'an as opposed to the 12th Imam for whom there is no trace. To believe in something unbelievable we either need to witness it with our own eyes, have clear Qur'anic proof or an authentic prophetic narration.

Secondly, we can argue that `Isa's (as) life is unlike that of the 12th, he was raised to the heavens and had his soul preserved with God until he can be sent down to resume his worldly physical life like the rest of us then die at a normal age; 12th is still living on earth and is immune to death which is unbelievable as it breaks the habit and norms.

Don't also forget the people of the cave who slept for many years then woke up and resumed thier lives. Shia also use this story, denying will serve no purpose here will it?

Overall, just because a precedent is found within the Qur'an does not mean anyone can apply it to himself. Let's say someone comes today and claims he can speak to animals but we're supposed to believe him because there's a Qur'anic precedent? The entire argument is dumb.

The Shia are simply trying to illustrate that their belief in a person who lives for a long time is not foreign since there have been varous precedents. We can argue that `Isa (as) was a prophet, 12th isn't so prove that this applies to non-prophets. As for the sleepers we can argue that they were sleeping, 12th wasn't so prove that a person can be alive, walking and talking for thousands of years etc...

Proving that something is not foreign to Islam is different from proving that something is true or in accordance with Islam's established teachings or creed.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2017, 08:13:01 AM »
Salam,

Again, the Shia do not rely on `Isa's (as) life to prove their 12th Imam's Ghaybah, they first resort to Ilyas (as) & Khadir (as).

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته ومغفرة

If you go back to my earlier reply on this point, you'll see that I cited an article from Shiapen.com

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/mahdi/and-ghaibah-of-isa-similarities.html

So the Shi'a do argue on the point of Ghayba by citing the occultation of Jesus, not Elias or Khidr. From my own experience in dialoguing with Shi'a, including some of their scholars, they always cite the occultation of Jesus as a precedent for their belief in the Ghayba. I have never heard or seen any of them refer to Prophet Elias or Khidr.

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As far as these two prophets, no authentic narration is available. It is all fabrications and nonsense by storytellers. Still, some Sunni scholars throughout history believed it, some still do especially among Sufi circles. These will be quoted no matter what, we simply say they are wrong and they do not represent us, most importantly they lack evidence.

Mulla Ali Qari said that major and grand Ulama are in the category of the living: Elias and Khidr on the Earth, and Jesus and Idris in the Heavens http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2015/05/hanafi-aqidah-khidr-iliyas-and-idris-as.html

Now you go on to say that:

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As far as `Isa (as), let's adopt the position of his life for the sake of the argument. First of all, his ascension and story have been mentioned in the Qur'an as opposed to the 12th Imam for whom there is no trace.

But if you say the ascension of Jesus is mentioned in the Qur'an, so is the ascension of Idris (Sura 19:57). This was apparently the basis for why these certain "Sufi circles" believe that Idris is living in Heaven like Jesus. As for Elias, his ascension into Heaven is narrated in the Hebrew Bible. Some mufassireen said that Idris and Elias are the same person.

So if people believe that the physical ascension and life of Jesus in the Heavens has some sort of a basis in the Qur'an, then the same kind of evidence and arguments they employ can be said for Idris too. Anyways, I like to be consistent and believe that all of these Prophets have died and none of them are alive: "And Muhammad is not but a Messenger. All the Messenger before him passed away, if he too dies or is killed will you turn back on your heels? (Sura 3:144)

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Secondly, we can argue that `Isa's (as) life is unlike that of the 12th, he was raised to the heavens and had his soul preserved with God until he can be sent down to resume his worldly physical life like the rest of us then die at a normal age; 12th is still living on earth and is immune to death which is unbelievable as it breaks the habit and norms.

Not to play devil's advocate, but I've heard from the mouths of the Shi'a that although their 12th Imam concealed himself in a cave in Samarra, it doesn't mean he is still there for the Ghaybat al Kubra. I've heard all kinds of bizarre things from them, something about the Bermuda Triangle, and one Shi'ite scholar I know personally said that the 12th Imam is alive in Heaven exactly like Jesus.

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Don't also forget the people of the cave who slept for many years then woke up and resumed thier lives. Shia also use this story, denying will serve no purpose here will it?

The Ashab al Kahf story isn't an example of Ghayba. They did not become "invisible", in fact the Holy Qur'an says that if you were to see them you would become terrified (Sura 18:18). And not to go on a tangent, but its worth studying the story of Ashab al Kahf in depth, there does seem to be some indication to me that their sleeping for 300 years may have been misunderstood and taken too literally. The Qur'an does say that if you saw them you would think they were awake, even though they were sleeping, and it says that do you think they were something strange from Our Signs (rhetorical question). Remember, the Holy Qur'an never explicitly tells us exactly how many Ashab al Kahf there were. It could be this was an entire society that had withdrawn from society into remote caves and they were described as sleeping because they were living in isolation from the rest of the world and not aware of what was going no beyond their cave. I personally have always doubted that the Ashab al Kahf refer to the legend of the 7 sleepers of Ephesus, and think that the context and lesson from this story of Ashab al Kahf matches more with certain introversionist sects of Jews and Christians that withdrew in caves and remote areas, like the Essenes and the Qumran community.

So all I'm trying to say is that we have to re-evaluate some of our traditionalist beliefs, such as Jesus being alive in the sky, when there isn't any unambiguous Verse in the Qur'an, Qati' ath-Thaboot and Qati' ad-Dalalah, which can substantiate such a strange idea. If we insist on believing in something like this, we really don't have the credibility to talk against the Ghayba of the 12th imam.[/size][/font]

Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2017, 09:46:39 AM »
You didn't comment on the last point of the post. That proving a precedent means absolutely nothing in terms of proving the beleif itself is legitimate or authentic.

If I tell you the Prophet saw said "Mangoes are healthy." And my precedent is that we were told honey is healthy in religious texts. Does this make the above attribution to the Prophet saw is legit and authentic?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2017, 06:15:35 PM »
So the Shi'a do argue on the point of Ghayba by citing the occultation of Jesus, not Elias or Khidr. From my own experience in dialoguing with Shi'a, including some of their scholars, they always cite the occultation of Jesus as a precedent for their belief in the Ghayba. I have never heard or seen any of them refer to Prophet Elias or Khidr.
You are right. They do use it. Here is one of their hadeeth.

قال إن الله تبارك و تعالى أدار للقائم منا ثلاثة أدارها في ثلاثة من الرسل ع قدر مولده تقدير مولد موسى ع و قدر غيبته تقدير غيبة عيسى ع و قدر إبطاءه تقدير إبطاء نوح ع و جعل له من بعد ذلك عمر العبد الصالح أعني الخضر ع دليلا على عمره
He (Imaam Al-Saadiq (عليه السلام)) said: “That Allaah (تبارك و تعالى) has made three qualities in our Al-Qaa’im, which is three qualities from the Messengers (عليهم السلام). He foreordained his birth (like) he foreordained the birth of Moosa (عليه السلام). And he foreordained his ghaybah (occultation) like he foreordained the ghaybah of `Eesa (عليه السلام). And he foreordained the deceleration (in age) like he foreordained the deceleration (in age) of NooH (عليه السلام). And he made from after that the lifespan of our righteous servant (`abd al-SaaliH), namely Al-KhiDr (عليه السلام) proof upon his (Al-Qaa’im) lifespan. Al-Sadooq, Kamaal Al-Deen, vol. 2, ch. 33, pg. 352, hadeeth # 51]

This is my answer to this claim:

Let us see what has quran to say about occultation of jesus(as), Quran says: Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.(5:117)

This verse proves that Jesus(as) didn’t even knew what his followers did after him, since he said after his occultation that he wasn’t a witness over his people, which proves that he wasn’t a guide in the sense in which shias label people as guide(though Isa may be a guide from his teachings, same as Muhammad(saw)) , So when Jesus(as) didn’t remain a guide after his occultation then in no way could the hidden Imam of shias be a guide after his occultation.

And if any Shia agrees that their Imam isn't a guide just like Isa(as) wasn't after his ascend. Then their fundamental Aqeedah that, the earth cannot remain without an Hujjah from Allah(Imam) gets destroyed.

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there does seem to be some indication to me that their sleeping for 300 years may have been misunderstood and taken too literally. The Qur'an does say that if you saw them you would think they were awake, even though they were sleeping, and it says that do you think they were something strange from Our Signs (rhetorical question). Remember, the Holy Qur'an never explicitly tells us exactly how many Ashab al Kahf there were. It could be this was an entire society that had withdrawn from society into remote caves and they were described as sleeping because they were living in isolation from the rest of the world and not aware of what was going no beyond their cave. I personally have always doubted that the Ashab al Kahf refer to the legend of the 7 sleepers of Ephesus, and think that the context and lesson from this story of Ashab al Kahf matches more with certain introversionist sects of Jews and Christians that withdrew in caves and remote areas, like the Essenes and the Qumran community.
[/font]
It was Indeed a literal sleep.

وَكَذَلِكَ بَعَثْنَاهُمْ لِيَتَسَاءلُوا بَيْنَهُمْ قَالَ قَائِلٌ مِّنْهُمْ كَمْ لَبِثْتُمْ قَالُوا لَبِثْنَا يَوْمًا أَوْ بَعْضَ يَوْمٍ قَالُوا رَبُّكُمْ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا لَبِثْتُمْ فَابْعَثُوا أَحَدَكُم بِوَرِقِكُمْ هَذِهِ إِلَى الْمَدِينَةِ
And thus did We rouse them that they might question each other. A speaker among them said: How long have you tarried? They said: We have tarried for a day or a part of a day. (Others) said: Your Lord knows best how long you have tarried. Now send one of you with this silver (coin) of yours to the city.....(Quran 18: 19).

This answer could only come from someone who slept literally.

May Allah grant you proper understanding and protect you from this corrupt views you have formed.

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2017, 11:13:19 PM »

This is my answer to this claim:

Let us see what has quran to say about occultation of jesus(as), Quran says: Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.(5:117)

This verse proves that Jesus(as) didn’t even knew what his followers did after him, since he said after his occultation that he wasn’t a witness over his people,

Now you have clearly interpreted this Ayah as meaning that Jesus will say to Allah on Judgment Day that I had no knowledge of what my followers did after my "departure" since you interpret فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي to mean "When you took me away" instead of فلمّا تميتني "When you caused me to die". This is problematic for you since I assume you believe in the Nuzul of the Masih that he himself will descend back into this Earth from the sky. When he does so, he will obvious become acquainted and learn what his followers did in his absence. Judgment Day will proceed all of this, so how does it make sense that Jesus will tell Allah "I have no knowledge of what my people did after my departure", clearly he will acquire that knowledge when he returns.

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It was Indeed a literal sleep.

وَكَذَلِكَ بَعَثْنَاهُمْ لِيَتَسَاءلُوا بَيْنَهُمْ قَالَ قَائِلٌ مِّنْهُمْ كَمْ لَبِثْتُمْ قَالُوا لَبِثْنَا يَوْمًا أَوْ بَعْضَ يَوْمٍ قَالُوا رَبُّكُمْ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا لَبِثْتُمْ فَابْعَثُوا أَحَدَكُم بِوَرِقِكُمْ هَذِهِ إِلَى الْمَدِينَةِ
And thus did We rouse them that they might question each other. A speaker among them said: How long have you tarried? They said: We have tarried for a day or a part of a day. (Others) said: Your Lord knows best how long you have tarried. Now send one of you with this silver (coin) of yours to the city.....(Quran 18: 19).

This answer could only come from someone who slept literally.

May Allah grant you proper understanding and protect you from this corrupt views you have formed.

Well this expression "a day or part of a day" is fascinating because as you know it is used elsewhere in the Qur'an al-Karim. Allah says that on Judgment Day the Mujrimeen will murmur among themselves:

يَتَخَافَتُونَ بَيْنَهُمْ إِن لَّبِثْتُمْ إِلَّا عَشْرًا ﴿١٠٣﴾ نَّحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يَقُولُونَ إِذْ يَقُولُ أَمْثَلُهُمْ طَرِيقَةً إِن لَّبِثْتُمْ إِلَّا يَوْمًا
In whispers will they speak to each other (saying): "You stayed not longer than ten (days)." (103) We know very well what they will say, when the best among them in knowledge and wisdom will say: "You stayed no longer than a day!" [Sura 20: 103 - 104: Hilali & Khan Translation]
Here's the explanation of this in Tafsir Ibn Kathir clarifying that they are talking about their duration in the worldly life:

"(You stayed not longer than ten.) meaning in the abode of the worldly life, you only tarried there for a little while. The time was equivalent to ten days or so. Allah, the Exalted, then says, (We know very well what they will say,) This means in their condition of conversing amongst themselves. (when the best among them in knowledge and wisdom will say;) the one with perfect intelligence amongst them, (You stayed no longer than a day!) This is because on the Day of Judgement they will sense the shortness of the worldly life within themselves. For the worldly life, with its repetitious time periods and successive nights, days and hours, is as if it is just one day. For this reason, on the Day of Resurrection the disbelievers will think the worldly life was very short. By this they mean to prevent the establishment of the evidence against them due to the shortness of time that they had"

These Ayaat about the duration of time, and the multidimensional aspect of time, at the very least seem to be from the Mutashabihaat to me. The Mujrimeen will be saying that they were alive in this world for ten days and the intelligent from among them saying it was but 1 day. They are not talking about the passing of time while they were sleeping and hence could not accurately perceive how much time had expired.

But from wisdom I come to know the reason for why 300 years is specifically mentioned in the story of As-Hab al Kahf, for if it really is concerning a group from the early followers of Jesus, then it is a matter of historical record that since the "departure" of Jesus until the time that Christianity was no longer persecuted in the Roman Empire and eventually became the dominant faith there was a period of approximately 3 centuries. Constantine had the Edict of Milan issued in 313 C.E after which Christianity quickly became the dominant religion of the empire. The As-Hab al Kahf "awoke" from their slumber and came out of their isolation after some 3 centuries to discover the world has completely changed and they are no longer being persecuted for their religion.

Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2017, 01:44:42 AM »
Regarding your words

"The Ashab al Kahf story isn't an example of Ghayba. They did not become "invisible", in fact the Holy Qur'an says that if you were to see them you would become terrified (Sura 18:18). "

The Twelvers also say their Mahdi isn't invisible. They say we all see him at Hajj but never recognize him. Many also say he meets regularly with his most trusted Shia.

You said

"This is problematic for you since I assume you believe in the Nuzul of the Masih that he himself will descend back into this Earth from the sky. When he does so, he will obvious become acquainted and learn what his followers did in his absence. Judgment Day will proceed all of this, so how does it make sense that Jesus will tell Allah "I have no knowledge of what my people did after my departure"

No it isn't problematic, this can happen as God Himself knows yet asks.

This all shows that Isa and the seven were inactive in their Ghaybah as opposed to the 12th
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 01:50:10 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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