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Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام

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ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2017, 02:00:42 AM »
Regarding your words

"The Ashab al Kahf story isn't an example of Ghayba. They did not become "invisible", in fact the Holy Qur'an says that if you were to see them you would become terrified (Sura 18:18). "

The Twelvers also say their Mahdi isn't invisible. They say we all see him at Hajj but never recognize him. Many also say he meets regularly with his most trusted Shia.

They are talking about Kushoof and spiritual visions.

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You said

"This is problematic for you since I assume you believe in the Nuzul of the Masih that he himself will descend back into this Earth from the sky. When he does so, he will obvious become acquainted and learn what his followers did in his absence. Judgment Day will proceed all of this, so how does it make sense that Jesus will tell Allah "I have no knowledge of what my people did after my departure"

No it isn't problematic, this can happen as God Himself knows yet asks.

This all shows that Isa and the seven were inactive in their Ghaybah as opposed to the 12th

What I said was in the context of responding to Noor-us-Sunnah, who claimed that according to this Ayah 5:117, it is proven that on Judgment Day Jesus will say he has no knowledge of what happened after his "departure". This interpretation of 5:117 that Jesus has no knowledge of what happened after his "departure" simply can't be reconciled with the doctrine of Nuzul al Masih as held to by the Muslim mainstream (both Ahlus Sunna and Shi'a).

So this is what Noor-us-Sunnah specifically claimed:
Quote from: Noor-us-Sunnah
This verse proves that Jesus(as) didn’t even knew what his followers did after him
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Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2017, 02:07:37 AM »
No they say he's actually physically seen. In fact a ton of their scholars claim to have met him and many Shia claim to have been aided by him when in distress.

As for the Nuzul, Isa's expression could simply mean: "Don't ask me about how they deviated, the moment you took me I had no control over them."

It doesn't necessarily mean he never knew they deviated or how they deviated. It's also possible that Isa actually didn't know How it came to be that they began worshipping him even if he did ask them, this was a matter lost in history and only Allah knows exactly how it came to be.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 02:09:12 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2017, 02:40:22 AM »
No they say he's actually physically seen. In fact a ton of their scholars claim to have met him and many Shia claim to have been aided by him when in distress.

Yes, because Kashaf includes the vision of seeing someone in a state of wakefulness who is otherwise invisible. Unless they claim that this is the address of the 12th Imam, go and meet him like any other ordinary human being, he is present among us. The whole concept of being Gha'ib (absent) is that it is the opposite of Haadir (present). The Companions of the Cave were present in the cave all along, but no serious Shi'ite will tell you let's go to the 12th Imam he is living in such and such place, let's go meet him, talk to him, etc. So there is an obvious difference between the absence of the 12th Imam according to the Shi'a and the Companions of the Cave having gone into a Cave without becoming invisible.

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As for the Nuzul, Isa's expression could simply mean: "Don't ask me about how they deviated, the moment you took me I had no control over them."

It doesn't necessarily mean he never knew they deviated or how they deviated. It's also possible that Isa actually didn't know How it came to be that they began worshipping him even if he did ask them, this was a matter lost in history and only Allah knows exactly how it came to be.

Again you miss the point that I am responding to the idea of Noor-us-Sunnah. I never said I agree with Noor-us-Sunnah. Your issue is essentially with him, and you should be explaining it to him not me.
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Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2017, 03:11:24 AM »
Yes, because Kashaf includes the vision of seeing someone in a state of wakefulness who is otherwise invisible. Unless they claim that this is the address of the 12th Imam, go and meet him like any other ordinary human being, he is present among us. The whole concept of being Gha'ib (absent) is that it is the opposite of Haadir (present). The Companions of the Cave were present in the cave all along, but no serious Shi'ite will tell you let's go to the 12th Imam he is living in such and such place, let's go meet him, talk to him, etc. So there is an obvious difference between the absence of the 12th Imam according to the Shi'a and the Companions of the Cave having gone into a Cave without becoming invisible.

Not sure what we're discussing here, they just say "We see him" nobody said Kashf, he doesn't need a permanent address as he is wandering the earth. Heck many of them even say he has wives and kids, are those Kashf?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2017, 05:35:30 AM »
A few more implicit proofs from Qur'an al-Karim that sayyidina Masih عليه السلام is dead:

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ فَلَبِثَ فِيهِمْ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ إِلَّا خَمْسِينَ عَامًا
And We sent Noah to his people, so he remained among them 1000 years less 50 years (29:14)

The age of Noah was 950. Authentic Ahadith describe him as the eldest of the Prophets:

عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ ، قَالَ : " جَاءَ مَلَكُ الْمَوْتِ إِلَى نُوحٍ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ ، فَقَالَ : يَا أَطْوَلَ النَّبِيِّينَ عُمْرًا
Ibn Abi’d-Dunya narrated in az-Zuhd (no. 358) with his isnaad from Anas ibn Maalik (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: The Angel of Death came to Nooh (peace be upon him) and said: O longest-lived of the Prophets

On Judgment Day, Adam, when asked to intercede, will say to the people:

عَلَيْكُمْ بِنُوحٍ فَإِنَّهُ أَوَّلُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَأَكْبَرُهُمْ
Go to Noah, for he is the first of the Prophets and the eldest of them (al-Bazar & al-Tawhid ibn Ibn Khuzayma)

But if Jesus was raised up to heaven, alive in his body, and has not yet died, he would be aged over 2,000 years. And who knows when he will descend back into this Earth. Whenever that happens, he will surely be much older than Noah, at least twice his age!

وَمَن نُّعَمِّرْهُ نُنَكِّسْهُ فِي الْخَلْقِ ۖ أَفَلَا يَعْقِلُونَ
And he whom We grant long life, We reverse him in creation [weakness after creation]. Will they not then understand? (36:68)

The Ahadith about the descent of Jesus that he will come, fight the Dajjal, break the cross, slay the swine, lead the Muslims for 40 years, etc., means he will have to be a man of strength. If someone who is over a 100 years old is reversed in strength to weakness, what about someone who is 2,000 + years old?!


The life of Isa(as) is a matter of Ghayb(unseen), so it's not possible to give a certain response, and yet it wouldn't mean that your claim of Isa(as) growing older is correct. As for this issue we don't have any evidence regarding the state Isa(as) is in, nor do we know about the factors of life in heaven, it could be completely different, the factors of time and the atmosphere, etc, its impact on body could be different. Allah can preserve it in the exact way as it was, at the time he was raised up to heaven. But I will try to answer this Insha Allah.

أَوْ كَالَّذِي مَرَّ عَلَىٰ قَرْيَةٍ وَهِيَ خَاوِيَةٌ عَلَىٰ عُرُوشِهَا قَالَ أَنَّىٰ يُحْيِي هَٰذِهِ اللَّهُ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا فَأَمَاتَهُ اللَّهُ مِائَةَ عَامٍ ثُمَّ بَعَثَهُ قَالَ كَمْ لَبِثْتَ قَالَ لَبِثْتُ يَوْمًا أَوْ بَعْضَ يَوْمٍ قَالَ بَل لَّبِثْتَ مِائَةَ عَامٍ فَانظُرْ إِلَىٰ طَعَامِكَ وَشَرَابِكَ لَمْ يَتَسَنَّهْ وَانظُرْ إِلَىٰ حِمَارِكَ وَلِنَجْعَلَكَ آيَةً لِّلنَّاسِ وَانظُرْ إِلَى الْعِظَامِ كَيْفَ نُنشِزُهَا ثُمَّ نَكْسُوهَا لَحْمًا فَلَمَّا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُ قَالَ أَعْلَمُ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
Or (take) the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said: "Oh! how shall Allah bring it (ever) to life, after (this) its death?" but Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: "How long didst thou tarry (thus)?" He said: (Perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said: "Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age; and look at thy donkey: And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people, Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh." When this was shown clearly to him, he said: "I know that Allah hath power over all things." (Quran 2:259).

We see that time factor didn't effect the food and drink of Uzayr(as) in this world, when Allah willed. Hence, Just like the time factor didn't effect the food and drink of Uzair(as), the same way the body of Isa(ra) could remain unaffected in heaven.

Another evidence is from this hadeeth:

CONDITION OF ISA(AS) BEFORE BEING RAISED TO HEAVEN
Notice the physical condition of Isa(as) before being raised up, water/sweat was dropping from his head.

ال ابن أبي حاتم : حدثنا أحمد بن سنان ، حدثنا أبو معاوية ، عن الأعمش ، عن المنهال بن عمرو ، عن سعيد بن جبير ، عن ابن عباس قال : لما أراد الله أن يرفع عيسى إلى السماء ، خرج على أصحابه – وفي البيت اثنا عشر رجلا من الحواريين – يعني : فخرج عليهم من عين في البيت ، ورأسه يقطر ماء
..........
وهذا إسناد صحيح إلى ابن عباس
Ibn Abbas said, “When Allaah decided to raise `Isa to Heaven, `Isa went to his companions – and in the house there were twelve men from his disciples – while drops of water were dripping from his head.....
Imam Ibn Katheer said: And this chain of narration is authentic (Saheeh) from Ibn Abbas.
(This narration can be read in Tafseer ibn Katheer, also in al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah (vol 2, page 85) of Imam Ibn Katheer, as well as in Fath al-Qadeer (vol 1, pg 800) of Imam ash-Shawkani.)

CONDITION OF ISA(AS) AT TIME OF DESCEND FROM HEAVEN

Notice that at the time of his descend too, sweat would be falling from his head.

بَعَثَ اللَّهُ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ فَيَنْزِلُ عِنْدَ الْمَنَارَةِ الْبَيْضَاءِ شَرْقِيَّ دِمَشْقَ بَيْنَ مَهْرُودَتَيْنِ وَاضِعًا كَفَّيْهِ عَلَى أَجْنِحَةِ مَلَكَيْنِ إِذَا طَأْطَأَ رَأَسَهُ قَطَرَ وَإِذَا رَفَعَهُ تَحَدَّرَ مِنْهُ جُمَانٌ كَاللُّؤْلُؤِ فَلاَ يَحِلُّ
Allah would send Jesus, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. (Sahih Muslim 2937 a).

This relation between the condition of Isa(as) at time of ascend and descend implies that He will descend in the same condition in which he ascended.

Also, the time factor of heavens is different in comparison to time factor of this world, its not the same, so it is possible that the age Allah has destined for believers depends on the time the are living through. Like since ISa(As) is in heaven then the time he is there will be calculated as per the time zone of heaven not earth, for example 1000 years could be a day.

And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and Allah will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number. (Quran 22:7)


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Then Allah says that He is ordering mankind to live on the Earth:

قَالَ فِيهَا تَحْيَوْنَ وَفِيهَا تَمُوتُونَ وَمِنْهَا تُخْرَجُونَ
He said: "Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and from it you shall be brought out (resurrected)" (7:25)

But if Jesus, a human being and son of Adam, has been living in the sky for the past 2,000 years, it is a contravention of this Verse where Allah decrees that all mankind is meant to live in and die on the Earth (not the sky).[/font][/size]
The order is general but there could be an exception to it for a certain, like even Prophet(saws) for a certain period went to heavens, as per Sunni belief. But the time period of ascending to heavens could differ, for someone it could be short for other it could be lohnger. Anways, as per the verse:
Isa(As) lived on earth for a certain time, We believe that in his second coming he will again live on earth, die on earth and resurrect from earth. Thus abiding by the command of Allah mentioned in Quran.

Narrated Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet (ﷺ) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (ﷺ). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. [Sunan Abi Dawud 4324 Al-Albani said: Sahih]

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2017, 06:50:58 AM »
The life of Isa(as) is a matter of Ghayb(unseen), so it's not possible to give a certain response, and yet it wouldn't mean that your claim of Isa(as) growing older is correct. As for this issue we don't have any evidence regarding the state Isa(as) is in, nor do we know about the factors of life in heaven, it could be completely different, the factors of time and the atmosphere, etc, its impact on body could be different. Allah can preserve it in the exact way as it was, at the time he was raised up to heaven.

This answer is not satisfactory, because your aqida is that sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام was raised up in his Jasad al-Unsari (earthly body). So we have to discuss the reality of the flesh and blood human body. The reality about the factors of life in Heaven, time, atmosphere, etc., are irrelevant. Allah says:

وَمَا جَعَلْنَاهُمْ جَسَدًا لَّا يَأْكُلُونَ الطَّعَامَ وَمَا كَانُوا خَالِدِينَ
And We did not make for them (Messengers) a body that does not require eating food for nourishment, nor were they immortal (Sura 21:8 )

Quite simply, there is no evidence that the human body can survive without nourishment, or that it can be taken to such a place where it will not experience aging and deterioration. Now if you say that Jesus was raised up to Heaven not in this earthen body, but in a Jism al Mithalee, in other words, his soul took on the form of a jism infused with light that is not subject to the restrictions of the earthen body, I would have no objection.

The essence of the problem is your insistence that Jesus was raised alive in Heaven with his Jasad al-Unsari (earthen body) without any explicit proof. It is this aqida which is creating all sorts of problems and raising too many questions and dilemmas.


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But I will try to answer this Insha Allah.

أَوْ كَالَّذِي مَرَّ عَلَىٰ قَرْيَةٍ وَهِيَ خَاوِيَةٌ عَلَىٰ عُرُوشِهَا قَالَ أَنَّىٰ يُحْيِي هَٰذِهِ اللَّهُ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا فَأَمَاتَهُ اللَّهُ مِائَةَ عَامٍ ثُمَّ بَعَثَهُ قَالَ كَمْ لَبِثْتَ قَالَ لَبِثْتُ يَوْمًا أَوْ بَعْضَ يَوْمٍ قَالَ بَل لَّبِثْتَ مِائَةَ عَامٍ فَانظُرْ إِلَىٰ طَعَامِكَ وَشَرَابِكَ لَمْ يَتَسَنَّهْ وَانظُرْ إِلَىٰ حِمَارِكَ وَلِنَجْعَلَكَ آيَةً لِّلنَّاسِ وَانظُرْ إِلَى الْعِظَامِ كَيْفَ نُنشِزُهَا ثُمَّ نَكْسُوهَا لَحْمًا فَلَمَّا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُ قَالَ أَعْلَمُ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
Or (take) the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said: "Oh! how shall Allah bring it (ever) to life, after (this) its death?" but Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: "How long didst thou tarry (thus)?" He said: (Perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said: "Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age; and look at thy donkey: And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people, Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh." When this was shown clearly to him, he said: "I know that Allah hath power over all things." (Quran 2:259).

We see that time factor didn't effect the food and drink of Uzayr(as) in this world, when Allah willed. Hence, Just like the time factor didn't effect the food and drink of Uzair(as), the same way the body of Isa(ra) could remain unaffected in heaven.

I highly encourage you to read an article I wrote explaining the reality of Ezekiel's Vision Sura 2:259
http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2016/08/ezekiels-vision-in-holy-quran.html

So without going on another tangent, in summary I believe that the man mentioned in this Verse (2:259) experienced a vision which from our point of view lasted a day or part of a day, hence why neither his food or drink were spoiled, and why his donkey remained as it was. In fact, I use those very facts as evidence that what he experienced was a vision, in which he was transported to a period of 100 years ahead to witness the coming back to life of the hamlet he had come across. Then when he awoke from his vision he saw that his food and drink was as they were, and also his donkey, but all that he had seen about the hamlet being quickened to life was in a powerful spiritual Vision.


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This relation between the condition of Isa(as) at time of ascend and descend implies that He will descend in the same condition in which he ascended.

That is based off of the saying of a Sahabi and not a Hujjah. But if you insist, I can prove to you that our beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم gave two separate and contrasting physical descriptions of Jesus.

During the Mi'raj, our Prophet saw Jesus and described him as a man of red complexion with curly hair. Then the Prophet had a vision of Jesus circling the Ka'ba, and described him as a dark man with straight hair. So if you insist on your point, based on a similar kind of reasoning, I can insist that the Jesus of Nazareth of 2000 years ago which our Prophet beheld during the Mi'raj is a different Jesus who will descend in the future that the Prophet beheld in his vision circling the Ka'ba.


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Also, the time factor of heavens is different in comparison to time factor of this world, its not the same, so it is possible that the age Allah has destined for believers depends on the time the are living through. Like since ISa(As) is in heaven then the time he is there will be calculated as per the time zone of heaven not earth, for example 1000 years could be a day.

Again we are talking about these factors in relation to the earthen flesh and blood mortal human body. It needs to be first proven that this human body has the capacity to survive being raised up into the Heavens, into dimensions beyond our own. This is the crucial factor that has to be discussed.

Allah says that it is the Angels and the Ruh which ascend to Him in a Day the measure of which is 50,000 years. Obviously the Angels and the Ruh have the capacity for this ascension, but obviously not the human body.
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Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2017, 10:56:26 AM »
...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:04:29 AM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2017, 11:05:10 AM »
This answer is not satisfactory, because your aqida is that sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام was raised up in his Jasad al-Unsari (earthly body). So we have to discuss the reality of the flesh and blood human body. The reality about the factors of life in Heaven, time, atmosphere, etc., are irrelevant. Allah says:

وَمَا جَعَلْنَاهُمْ جَسَدًا لَّا يَأْكُلُونَ الطَّعَامَ وَمَا كَانُوا خَالِدِينَ
And We did not make for them (Messengers) a body that does not require eating food for nourishment, nor were they immortal (Sura 21:8 )

Quite simply, there is no evidence that the human body can survive without nourishment, or that it can be taken to such a place where it will not experience aging and deterioration. Now if you say that Jesus was raised up to Heaven not in this earthen body, but in a Jism al Mithalee, in other words, his soul took on the form of a jism infused with light that is not subject to the restrictions of the earthen body, I would have no objection.

The essence of the problem is your insistence that Jesus was raised alive in Heaven with his Jasad al-Unsari (earthen body) without any explicit proof. It is this aqida which is creating all sorts of problems and raising too many questions and dilemmas.

I told you before these matters are of unseen, and we have no knowledge about its details. We believe in these things because it was informed by Prophet Muhammad(saws) who received certain knowledge of unseen through Wahi(revelation) from Allah.

Belief in the Unseen is central to the message of the Quran. Allah says: “This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah; who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them.” [Surah al-Baqarah: 2-3]

This verse establishes for us that belief in the Unseen is the basis for certainty of faith. Indeed, all six of the articles of faith are founded upon belief in the Unseen.

This is why Allah mentions belief in the Unseen here as the first characteristic of a believer. We are not supposed to limit our belief to those things that we can apprehend with our senses. We are not supposed to allow our observation of the physical world to blind us to our faith in what is beyond it.

Allah gives us the balance that we are supposed to strike when He tells us: “On the Earth are signs for those of assured Faith, as also in your own selves: Will you not then see? And in heaven is your sustenance, as (also) that which you are promised.” [Sûrah Dhâriyât: 20-22]

In these verses Allah mentions matters of the Unseen with matters that are subject to our empirical scrutiny. The world of the Unseen is the domain of faith. The proof for our faith, however, is in the tangible world, the world wherein we carry out our lives.

We must simply concede that our minds and our faculties are limited, and some things in Allah’s creation have not been subjected to our scrutiny.

Consider the human soul. Though it has a vital connection with the human body, its nature is a complete mystery to us.

Allah says: “They ask you about the soul. Say: the soul is from the affair of my Lord, and of knowledge you have been vouchsafed but little.” [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 85]

The matters of the Unseen that Islam calls upon people of faith to believe – they are all matters which reason cannot ascertain. At the same time, they are not matters that run contrary to the dictates of reason.

Ibn Taymiyah explains this as follows:

    Islam asserts matters that transcend the limits of human reason – matters that the human mind is incapable of resolving on its own. Islam does not assert matters that run contrary to the dictates of reason, things that our rational faculties clearly show us to be impossible or wrong.

    Reason does not deny the existence of the Unseen. To the contrary, reason acknowledges that necessity of the Unseen for human life in this world and for the concerns of the Hereafter.


Quote

So without going on another tangent, in summary I believe that the man mentioned in this Verse (2:259) experienced a vision which from our point of view lasted a day or part of a day, hence why neither his food or drink were spoiled, and why his donkey remained as it was. In fact, I use those very facts as evidence that what he experienced was a vision, in which he was transported to a period of 100 years ahead to witness the coming back to life of the hamlet he had come across. Then when he awoke from his vision he saw that his food and drink was as they were, and also his donkey, but all that he had seen about the hamlet being quickened to life was in a powerful spiritual Vision.[/size][/font]
That's twisting the verse of Quran. Your theory would have been acceptable if in case the Quran wouldn't have said that the person remained for 100 years. In this case the wordings would have been that, the time period for the vision was a very short interval. Since Quran mentions that he remained there for 100 years, when he thought he was there only for a day, this proves that it was practical.


Secondly You asked me to refer your article, In the last I found this conclusion from you:
Quote
These people were perhaps the Israelites during the Babylonian captivity who had been banished from the Holy Land beginning around 597 BCE. It was their nation which had died and was in a state of death. Nevertheless, Allah, out of His grace, restored the nation and caused them to be released from captivity and return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple in 538 BCE after Cyrus’s proclamation.
So lets compare this with Quranic verse.
 In 597 BCE this nation was destroyed. And this nation was restored in 538 BCE.

So if Ezekiel saw this scene in 597 BCE when it started, then 100 years after it when it was restored would be 497 BCE,  not 538 BCE. So there are clear inconsistencies in your baseless theories. The fact is that you are basing your views on unreliable Christian sources, whose authenticity is rejected if they contradict Muslim sources.

Lets see how Muslim scholars explained, so that readers benefit from it.

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that `Ali bin Abi Talib said that the Ayah ﴿2:259﴾ meant `Uzayr. Ibn Jarir also reported it, and this explanation was also reported by Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim from Ibn `Abbas, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, As-Suddi and Sulayman bin Buraydah.

You wrote in the article:
Quote
Allah also draws attention to his donkey which is also still present and alive.
We read:
(And look at your donkey!), "How Allah brings it back to life while you are watching.''(And thus We have made of you a sign for the people) that Resurrection occurs..

As-Suddi said, " `Uzayr observed the bones of his donkey, which were scattered all around him to his right and left, and Allah sent a wind that collected the bones from all over the area. Allah then brought every bone to its place, until they formed a full donkey made of fleshless bones. Allah then covered these bones with flesh, nerves, veins and skin. Allah sent an angel who blew life in the donkeys' nostrils, and the donkey started to bray by Allah's leave.' [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]


Quote
That is based off of the saying of a Sahabi and not a Hujjah.
It is an hujjah for Ahl us sunnah, I'll deal with this point in detail later inshaAllah.

Quote
But if you insist, I can prove to you that our beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم gave two separate and contrasting physical descriptions of Jesus.

During the Mi'raj, our Prophet saw Jesus and described him as a man of red complexion with curly hair. Then the Prophet had a vision of Jesus circling the Ka'ba, and described him as a dark man with straight hair. So if you insist on your point, based on a similar kind of reasoning, I can insist that the Jesus of Nazareth of 2000 years ago which our Prophet beheld during the Mi'raj is a different Jesus who will descend in the future that the Prophet beheld in his vision circling the Ka'ba.[/size][/font]
Apparently there seem to be two contradictions here;

1) About Complexion

2) About Hair

In the following lines we discuss in detail all the various Ahadith about the issue.

Complexion:

1) As to the complexion, apparently there seems to be a contradiction but there isn’t any. One Hadith of Ibn Umar (RA) above says that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) described Jesus (PBUH) to be of red complexion while other narration from him says he was described to be of wheatish complexion. This apparent contradiction is resolved considering other narrations.

عَنْ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ قَالَ لَا وَاللَّهِ مَا قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِعِيسَى أَحْمَرُ وَلَكِنْ قَالَ بَيْنَمَا أَنَا نَائِمٌ أَطُوفُ بِالْكَعْبَةِ فَإِذَا رَجُلٌ آدَمُ سَبْطُ الشَّعَرِ

Salim reports from his father (i.e. Abdullah bin Umar), he said: “No, By Allah, the Prophet did not say that Jesus was of red complexion but he said, “While I was asleep circumambulating the Ka’ba (in my dream), suddenly I saw a man of brown complexion and lank hair.” (Bukhari, Kitabul Ahadith al-Anbiya, Hadith 3185)

2) Considering the fact that Ibn Umar (RA) himself so emphatically repudiates the idea that Holy Prophet (PBUH) described Jesus (PBUH) to be of red complexion so we have to believe, the narration which attributes to Ibn Umar (RA) the report of Holy Prophet describing Jesus as such is perhaps a mistake by some later narrator. Jesus (PBUH) was not purely of red complexion. Infact this is generally not true for the Semitic people.

3) The rightful description of Jesus (PBUH) is as narrated by Ibn Abbas (RA):

ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ …َرَأَيْتُ عِيسَى رَجُلًا مَرْبُوعًا مَرْبُوعَ الْخَلْقِ إِلَى الْحُمْرَةِ وَالْبَيَاضِ سَبِطَ الرَّأْسِ

Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said, “On the night of my Ascent to the Heaven, … I saw Jesus, a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair.” (Bukhari, Kitabul Bad’ al-Khalq, Hadith 3000)

4) Infact his complexion was neither white as lime nor purely red but something between these two as described in the Hadith above. And the same complexion was sometimes referred to as ‘wheatish’ or ‘wheat-colored.’

Al-Nawawi has written the same in his commentary to the Hadith that speaks of red complexion of Jesus (PBUH):

وَأَنَّهُ اِشْتَبَهَ عَلَى الرَّاوِي فَيَجُوز أَنْ يُتَأَوَّل الْأَحْمَر عَلَى الْأَدَم ، وَلَا يَكُون الْمُرَاد حَقِيقَة الْأُدْمَة وَالْحُمْرَة بَلْ مَا قَارَبَهَا

“And this is confusion on the part of the narrator and perhaps he took red to be wheat-like and it does not mean tan or red but what is near to it.” (Sharah Al-Nawawi on Sahih Muslim 1/302, Kitabul Iman)

5) The fact of the matter is that it’s not easy to describe ones complexion. The same is evident from the fact that Anas (RA) in one narration says Holy Prophet (PBUH) was wheatish in complexion and in another narration says he was not wheat-colored. (Shamail Tirmidhi Hadith 1 & 2. Both authenticated by Albani)

The Hair:

1) As to the hair; straight or curly, we need to have a look at the actual wording of the Hadith that is taken to speak about the curly hair of Jesus (PBUH);

فَأَمَّا عِيسَى فَأَحْمَرُ جَعْدٌ

The usual translation goes as; “Jesus was of red complexion [and] curly hair.”

Here the word جَعْدٌ is taken to mean curly hair but this is not the exclusive meaning of this word. Ibn Athir
writes about it:

مَعْناه… شَدِيد الأسْرِ

i.e. “It means… ‘Of strong built.’” and further gives an example of it from Hadith:

والحديث الآخر [ على ناقة جَعْدَة ] أي مُجْتَمِعة الخَلْق شَدِيدةٍ

“In another Hadīth, ‘On a camel of strong built’ i.e. of rigorously cogent built.” (Nihaya fi Gharib al-Asar 1/767)

Indeed scholars have always taken جَعْدٌ to mean ‘of strong built’ in this context. Hafiz Ibn Hujr mentions that it refers to his physical bearing and not hair. He says;

وَوَصْفه لِجُعُودَةِ فِي جِسْمه لَا شَعْره وَالْمُرَاد بِذَلِكَ اِجْتِمَاعه وَاكْتِنَازه

“And this is about sturdiness in body, not the hair and it refers to its compactness and robustness” (Fath Al-Baari 10/242, kitabul ahadith al-anbiya)

Al-Nawawi has also said the very same. He writes;

الْمُرَاد بِالْجَعْدِ هُنَا جُعُودَة الْجِسْم وَهُوَ اِجْتِمَاعه وَاكْتِنَازه وَلَيْسَ الْمُرَاد جُعُودَة الشَّعْر
.
“Here جَعْدِ means firmness of the body i.e. its compactness and being thickset. And it does not refer to curling of the hair’ (Sharah Al-Nawawi on Sahih Muslim 1/296, Kitabul Iman)

2) So the correct and most suitable translation of the Hadith which is generally taken to refer to the curly hair of Jesus (PBUH) is:

Narrated Ibn Umar: The Prophet said, “I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my Ascension to the heavens). Jesus was (person) with red complexion, robust body and a broad chest.” (Bukhari, Hadith 3183)

Similar Description of Jesus (PBUH) as seen during Mi’raj and on his descent:

The thing of utmost importance we need to consider here is the fact that when the Holy Prophet (PBUH) told about the features of the Jesus (PBUH) to recognize him on his descent it went directly in line with the description of Jesus (PBUH) found in the Ahadith about Night of Ascension (Mi’raj).

ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ …َرَأَيْتُ عِيسَى رَجُلًا مَرْبُوعًا مَرْبُوعَ الْخَلْقِ إِلَى الْحُمْرَةِ وَالْبَيَاضِ سَبِطَ الرَّأْسِ
Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said, “On the night of my Ascent to the Heaven … I saw Jesus, a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair.” (Bukhari, kitabul bad’ al-khalq , Hadith 3000)

عن أبي هريرة أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال ليس بيني وبينه نبي يعني عيسى وإنه نازل فإذا رأيتموه فاعرفوه رجل مربوع إلى الحمرة والبياض

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (PBUH) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (PBUH). He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognize him: a man of medium height, complexion inclined to red and white…” (Abu Dawud, Kitabul Malahim, Hadith 4324. Classified as Sahih by Albani)

This proves that the man who is described in the Ahadith to descend from the Heavens near the End of Times will be same Israelite Prophet whom the Holy Prophet (PBUH) met during the Miraculous Night (Mi’raj).
All these details upholds the unanimous Muslim belief that Jesus of Nazareth will indeed descend from the Heavens.

Quote
Again we are talking about these factors in relation to the earthen flesh and blood mortal human body. It needs to be first proven that this human body has the capacity to survive being raised up into the Heavens, into dimensions beyond our own. This is the crucial factor that has to be discussed.

Allah says that it is the Angels and the Ruh which ascend to Him in a Day the measure of which is 50,000 years. Obviously the Angels and the Ruh have the capacity for this ascension, but obviously not the human body.

If you are going to judge a supernatural event with physical laws then obviously you won't be able to grasp it. Which such parameters, Im afraid you will some day rejector of Quran as well. Take example of Ibrahim(as) who was thrown into fire, the natural process is that flesh and skin would burn in fire, but since it was a supernatural event, what happened was contrary to natural law. The fire became cool on Ibrahim(as).
“We said: ‘O fire! Be you coolness and safety for Ibrahim (Abraham)!’ And they wanted to harm him, but We made them the worst losers” [Surah al-Anbiyaa 21:69-70].

May be for you, this as well was the vision of Ibrahim(as).

So again I repeat that we believe in descend of Isa(As) because Prophet(saws) informed us about it, and we are from those who believe in Ghaib and supernatural events.

As for the evidence that Isa(as) would return in a physical body then, the Marfoo hadeeth from Prophet(saws) describes that when Isa(As) would descend, he will be wearing clothes, water would drop from his hair, He would place his hands on the wings of angels, which signifies that it would be for support while descending, and only a physical body would need to do that.

Allah would send Jesus, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. [ Sahih Muslim 2937 a]
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:06:52 AM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2017, 12:18:38 PM »
I told you before these matters are of unseen, and we have no knowledge about its details. We believe in these things because it was informed by Prophet Muhammad(saws) who received certain knowledge of unseen through Wahi(revelation) from Allah.

Belief in the Unseen is central to the message of the Quran. Allah says: “This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah; who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them.” [Surah al-Baqarah: 2-3]

This verse establishes for us that belief in the Unseen is the basis for certainty of faith. Indeed, all six of the articles of faith are founded upon belief in the Unseen.

This is why Allah mentions belief in the Unseen here as the first characteristic of a believer. We are not supposed to limit our belief to those things that we can apprehend with our senses. We are not supposed to allow our observation of the physical world to blind us to our faith in what is beyond it.

Allah gives us the balance that we are supposed to strike when He tells us: “On the Earth are signs for those of assured Faith, as also in your own selves: Will you not then see? And in heaven is your sustenance, as (also) that which you are promised.” [Sûrah Dhâriyât: 20-22]

In these verses Allah mentions matters of the Unseen with matters that are subject to our empirical scrutiny. The world of the Unseen is the domain of faith. The proof for our faith, however, is in the tangible world, the world wherein we carry out our lives.

We must simply concede that our minds and our faculties are limited, and some things in Allah’s creation have not been subjected to our scrutiny.

Consider the human soul. Though it has a vital connection with the human body, its nature is a complete mystery to us.

Allah says: “They ask you about the soul. Say: the soul is from the affair of my Lord, and of knowledge you have been vouchsafed but little.” [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 85]

The matters of the Unseen that Islam calls upon people of faith to believe – they are all matters which reason cannot ascertain. At the same time, they are not matters that run contrary to the dictates of reason.

Ibn Taymiyah explains this as follows:

    Islam asserts matters that transcend the limits of human reason – matters that the human mind is incapable of resolving on its own. Islam does not assert matters that run contrary to the dictates of reason, things that our rational faculties clearly show us to be impossible or wrong.

    Reason does not deny the existence of the Unseen. To the contrary, reason acknowledges that necessity of the Unseen for human life in this world and for the concerns of the Hereafter.

You didn't answer why Allah Azza wa Jall says that He did not make bodies for His Messengers that can sustain without food. If Jesus is alive in heaven with his earthen body how is he being sustained without food? This is not disbelief in the unseen, this is the verdict of the Qur'an itself. I am not denying the unseen, or even extraordinary and supernatural things. But anyone who claims something extraordinary or supernatural cannot simply say "we have to believe in the Unseen". Everything we believe from the Unseen has to have a basis in divine Revelation. So it is not only a rational argument, but also a Qur'anic argument that I am making that how can Jesus be alive in his physical body in the Heavens without food or nourishment when the Holy Qur'an says the Jasad (body) of a Prophet, like that of any other Bashar, cannot survive without food.

If you say that Jesus is being provided food and eating in Heaven, then you have contradicted another Verse of the Holy Qur'an:

كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ الطَّعَامَ
Both Jesus and his mother Mary used to eat food (Sura 5:75)

Examine this Verse carefully. Kaanaa is dual form and past tense. Yaakulaan is likewise in dual form. It means that both Jesus and his mother Mary used to eat food in the past. They do not eat food anymore because both are deceased. but if you say that Jesus is not deceased, you will still have to admit, based on this Ayah, that he doesn't eat food because Kaanaa is for past tense.

And if Jesus doesn't eat food anymore, it means his Jasad can no longer be sustained. So your aqida is not only illogical or irrational, it is clearly against the revelation of the Qur'an. It is against both Revelation and Rationality, all the more reason to reject it.


Quote from: Noor-us-Sunnah
That's twisting the verse of Quran. Your theory would have been acceptable if in case the Quran wouldn't have said that the person remained for 100 years. In this case the wordings would have been that, the time period for the vision was a very short interval. Since Quran mentions that he remained there for 100 years, when he thought he was there only for a day, this proves that it was practical.
Secondly You asked me to refer your article, In the last I found this conclusion from you:
"These people were perhaps the Israelites during the Babylonian captivity who had been banished from the Holy Land beginning around 597 BCE. It was their nation which had died and was in a state of death. Nevertheless, Allah, out of His grace, restored the nation and caused them to be released from captivity and return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple in 538 BCE after Cyrus’s proclamation."
So lets compare this with Quranic verse.
 In 597 BCE this nation was destroyed. And this nation was restored in 538 BCE.

So if Ezekiel saw this scene in 597 BCE when it started, then 100 years after it when it was restored would be 497 BCE,  not 538 BCE. So there are clear inconsistencies in your baseless theories. The fact is that you are basing your views on unreliable Christian sources, whose authenticity is rejected if they contradict Muslim sources.

You assume that the edict for the restoration of Jerusalem in 538 BCE is exactly the time the town is fully restored and brimming with life. Again this is a false assumption. That was merely the year of the proclamation and the beginning of the process to restore Jerusalem. It would have taken several years for Jerusalem to again be a vibrant and lively city. For example, the Second Temple, the life of the city, wasn't fully restored until 516 BCE. So a 100 years into the future from when Ezekiel came across the town in utter ruin, it was at its restored glory, that was the scene that Allah wanted to show His Prophet. If He showed him the scene of 538 BCE, it would not be showing him Jerusalem fully revived and restored to glory at all.

Quote
You wrote in the article: "Allah also draws attention to his donkey which is also still present and alive."
We read: (And look at your donkey!), "How Allah brings it back to life while you are watching.''(And thus We have made of you a sign for the people) that Resurrection occurs..

As-Suddi said, " `Uzayr observed the bones of his donkey, which were scattered all around him to his right and left, and Allah sent a wind that collected the bones from all over the area. Allah then brought every bone to its place, until they formed a full donkey made of fleshless bones. Allah then covered these bones with flesh, nerves, veins and skin. Allah sent an angel who blew life in the donkeys' nostrils, and the donkey started to bray by Allah's leave.' [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

There is difference of opinion of the Mufassireen regarding the donkey. The grammatical structure of the Ayah makes it clear that the donkey, like his food and drink, did not change or decay.
وَانظُرْ إِلَىٰ حِمَارِكَ
"And look to your donkey"
The Waw here is al-Waw 'Aatifah, meaning this is the Waw that is a prefixed conjunction. The idea that the donkey had decayed into bones doesn't fit with the grammar of the Verse.


As for what you have said next about the two different descriptions of Jesus, you have copied and pasted verbatim from the article of Waqar Akbar Cheema from thecult.info

I advise you to do your own research and write your own words. Nevertheless, I will in sha Allah answer Cheema's mistakes in my next post.
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Abu Muhammad

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2017, 03:44:57 PM »
You didn't answer why Allah Azza wa Jall says that He did not make bodies for His Messengers that can sustain without food. If Jesus is alive in heaven with his earthen body how is he being sustained without food? This is not disbelief in the unseen, this is the verdict of the Qur'an itself. I am not denying the unseen, or even extraordinary and supernatural things. But anyone who claims something extraordinary or supernatural cannot simply say "we have to believe in the Unseen". Everything we believe from the Unseen has to have a basis in divine Revelation. So it is not only a rational argument, but also a Qur'anic argument that I am making that how can Jesus be alive in his physical body in the Heavens without food or nourishment when the Holy Qur'an says the Jasad (body) of a Prophet, like that of any other Bashar, cannot survive without food.

If you say that Jesus is being provided food and eating in Heaven, then you have contradicted another Verse of the Holy Qur'an:

كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ الطَّعَامَ
Both Jesus and his mother Mary used to eat food (Sura 5:75)

Examine this Verse carefully. Kaanaa is dual form and past tense. Yaakulaan is likewise in dual form. It means that both Jesus and his mother Mary used to eat food in the past. They do not eat food anymore because both are deceased. but if you say that Jesus is not deceased, you will still have to admit, based on this Ayah, that he doesn't eat food because Kaanaa is for past tense.

And if Jesus doesn't eat food anymore, it means his Jasad can no longer be sustained. So your aqida is not only illogical or irrational, it is clearly against the revelation of the Qur'an. It is against both Revelation and Rationality, all the more reason to reject it.

What have you got to say about Ashab Al-Kahf? For sure they didn't grow roots, did they?

Do not say that sleeping is different from awake. Your body still needs sustenance regardless.

Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2017, 04:37:25 PM »
You didn't answer why Allah Azza wa Jall says that He did not make bodies for His Messengers that can sustain without food. If Jesus is alive in heaven with his earthen body how is he being sustained without food? This is not disbelief in the unseen, this is the verdict of the Qur'an itself. I am not denying the unseen, or even extraordinary and supernatural things. But anyone who claims something extraordinary or supernatural cannot simply say "we have to believe in the Unseen". Everything we believe from the Unseen has to have a basis in divine Revelation. So it is not only a rational argument, but also a Qur'anic argument that I am making that how can Jesus be alive in his physical body in the Heavens without food or nourishment when the Holy Qur'an says the Jasad (body) of a Prophet, like that of any other Bashar, cannot survive without food.

If you say that Jesus is being provided food and eating in Heaven, then you have contradicted another Verse of the Holy Qur'an:

كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ الطَّعَامَ
Both Jesus and his mother Mary used to eat food (Sura 5:75)

Examine this Verse carefully. Kaanaa is dual form and past tense. Yaakulaan is likewise in dual form. It means that both Jesus and his mother Mary used to eat food in the past. They do not eat food anymore because both are deceased. but if you say that Jesus is not deceased, you will still have to admit, based on this Ayah, that he doesn't eat food because Kaanaa is for past tense.

And if Jesus doesn't eat food anymore, it means his Jasad can no longer be sustained. So your aqida is not only illogical or irrational, it is clearly against the revelation of the Qur'an. It is against both Revelation and Rationality, all the more reason to reject it.

What have you got to say about Ashab Al-Kahf? For sure they didn't grow roots, did they?

Do not say that sleeping is different from awake. Your body still needs sustenance regardless.

Forget about food & drinks. I doubt there is oxygen in the belly of a whale :D

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2017, 11:26:11 PM »

What have you got to say about Ashab Al-Kahf? For sure they didn't grow roots, did they?

Do not say that sleeping is different from awake. Your body still needs sustenance regardless.

Brother read the entire thread, I already discussed the AsHab al Kahf in 2 previous entries:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/challenge-to-sunnis-ghayba-of-ibn-mariam/msg16588/#msg16588
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/challenge-to-sunnis-ghayba-of-ibn-mariam/msg16629/#msg16629


Quote from: Hadrami
Forget about food & drinks. I doubt there is oxygen in the belly of a whale :D

It's a good point, but sayyidina Yunus عليه السلام was only in the belly of the whale for a very short period of time where it is possible for a human being to survive even without oxygen. Nevertheless, even when he was vomited out of the whale and came on dry shore he was extremely sick. The fact that he was so sick means what happened was natural, it was not anything supernatural. If it was supernatural then he would not have been extremely sick when he came out of the whale. So he was in the whale's belly for a very short period of time, but even then, being a human being, he obviously became sick and close to dying. He was not there for 2000 years, but you guys believe Jesus is living in the sky without food and nourishment for 2000 years!
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ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2017, 12:09:05 AM »
Now I am going to respond to the arguments raised by Waqar Akbar Cheema, which Noor-us-Sunnah not only copied and pasted verbatim but failed to acknowledge and credit his source, so as to deceptively make it appear as though these are his own words:

Apparently there seem to be two contradictions here;

1) About Complexion

2) About Hair

In the following lines we discuss in detail all the various Ahadith about the issue.

Complexion:

1) As to the complexion, apparently there seems to be a contradiction but there isn’t any. One Hadith of Ibn Umar (RA) above says that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) described Jesus (PBUH) to be of red complexion while other narration from him says he was described to be of wheatish complexion. This apparent contradiction is resolved considering other narrations.

عَنْ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ قَالَ لَا وَاللَّهِ مَا قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِعِيسَى أَحْمَرُ وَلَكِنْ قَالَ بَيْنَمَا أَنَا نَائِمٌ أَطُوفُ بِالْكَعْبَةِ فَإِذَا رَجُلٌ آدَمُ سَبْطُ الشَّعَرِ

Salim reports from his father (i.e. Abdullah bin Umar), he said: “No, By Allah, the Prophet did not say that Jesus was of red complexion but he said, “While I was asleep circumambulating the Ka’ba (in my dream), suddenly I saw a man of brown complexion and lank hair.” (Bukhari, Kitabul Ahadith al-Anbiya, Hadith 3185)

2) Considering the fact that Ibn Umar (RA) himself so emphatically repudiates the idea that Holy Prophet (PBUH) described Jesus (PBUH) to be of red complexion so we have to believe, the narration which attributes to Ibn Umar (RA) the report of Holy Prophet describing Jesus as such is perhaps a mistake by some later narrator. Jesus (PBUH) was not purely of red complexion. Infact this is generally not true for the Semitic people.

3) The rightful description of Jesus (PBUH) is as narrated by Ibn Abbas (RA):

ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ …َرَأَيْتُ عِيسَى رَجُلًا مَرْبُوعًا مَرْبُوعَ الْخَلْقِ إِلَى الْحُمْرَةِ وَالْبَيَاضِ سَبِطَ الرَّأْسِ

Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said, “On the night of my Ascent to the Heaven, … I saw Jesus, a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair.” (Bukhari, Kitabul Bad’ al-Khalq, Hadith 3000)

4) Infact his complexion was neither white as lime nor purely red but something between these two as described in the Hadith above. And the same complexion was sometimes referred to as ‘wheatish’ or ‘wheat-colored.’

Al-Nawawi has written the same in his commentary to the Hadith that speaks of red complexion of Jesus (PBUH):

وَأَنَّهُ اِشْتَبَهَ عَلَى الرَّاوِي فَيَجُوز أَنْ يُتَأَوَّل الْأَحْمَر عَلَى الْأَدَم ، وَلَا يَكُون الْمُرَاد حَقِيقَة الْأُدْمَة وَالْحُمْرَة بَلْ مَا قَارَبَهَا

“And this is confusion on the part of the narrator and perhaps he took red to be wheat-like and it does not mean tan or red but what is near to it.” (Sharah Al-Nawawi on Sahih Muslim 1/302, Kitabul Iman)

5) The fact of the matter is that it’s not easy to describe ones complexion. The same is evident from the fact that Anas (RA) in one narration says Holy Prophet (PBUH) was wheatish in complexion and in another narration says he was not wheat-colored. (Shamail Tirmidhi Hadith 1 & 2. Both authenticated by Albani)

Waqar Akbar Cheema has presented nothing but circular arguments here. His main point is that the narrator must have made a mistake because Jesus can obviously have only 1 complexion. So he is arguing against the apparent purport of these narrations that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم described Jesus with 2 opposing physical descriptions by saying it must be a mistake because there can only be 1 description. This is nothing but a circular argument. Even if we take at face value the explanation that Jesus was not of reddish complexion, but somewhere in between the reddish and white complexion, it still doesn't negate the fact that in the Vision of the Ka'ba, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم described him as being Adam which means dark and brown.

Quote
The Hair:

1) As to the hair; straight or curly, we need to have a look at the actual wording of the Hadith that is taken to speak about the curly hair of Jesus (PBUH);

فَأَمَّا عِيسَى فَأَحْمَرُ جَعْدٌ

The usual translation goes as; “Jesus was of red complexion [and] curly hair.”

Here the word جَعْدٌ is taken to mean curly hair but this is not the exclusive meaning of this word. Ibn Athir
writes about it:

مَعْناه… شَدِيد الأسْرِ

i.e. “It means… ‘Of strong built.’” and further gives an example of it from Hadith:

والحديث الآخر [ على ناقة جَعْدَة ] أي مُجْتَمِعة الخَلْق شَدِيدةٍ

“In another Hadīth, ‘On a camel of strong built’ i.e. of rigorously cogent built.” (Nihaya fi Gharib al-Asar 1/767)

Indeed scholars have always taken جَعْدٌ to mean ‘of strong built’ in this context. Hafiz Ibn Hujr mentions that it refers to his physical bearing and not hair. He says;

وَوَصْفه لِجُعُودَةِ فِي جِسْمه لَا شَعْره وَالْمُرَاد بِذَلِكَ اِجْتِمَاعه وَاكْتِنَازه

“And this is about sturdiness in body, not the hair and it refers to its compactness and robustness” (Fath Al-Baari 10/242, kitabul ahadith al-anbiya)

Al-Nawawi has also said the very same. He writes;

الْمُرَاد بِالْجَعْدِ هُنَا جُعُودَة الْجِسْم وَهُوَ اِجْتِمَاعه وَاكْتِنَازه وَلَيْسَ الْمُرَاد جُعُودَة الشَّعْر
.
“Here جَعْدِ means firmness of the body i.e. its compactness and being thickset. And it does not refer to curling of the hair’ (Sharah Al-Nawawi on Sahih Muslim 1/296, Kitabul Iman)

2) So the correct and most suitable translation of the Hadith which is generally taken to refer to the curly hair of Jesus (PBUH) is:

Narrated Ibn Umar: The Prophet said, “I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my Ascension to the heavens). Jesus was (person) with red complexion, robust body and a broad chest.” (Bukhari, Hadith 3183)

Similar Description of Jesus (PBUH) as seen during Mi’raj and on his descent:

The thing of utmost importance we need to consider here is the fact that when the Holy Prophet (PBUH) told about the features of the Jesus (PBUH) to recognize him on his descent it went directly in line with the description of Jesus (PBUH) found in the Ahadith about Night of Ascension (Mi’raj).

ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ …َرَأَيْتُ عِيسَى رَجُلًا مَرْبُوعًا مَرْبُوعَ الْخَلْقِ إِلَى الْحُمْرَةِ وَالْبَيَاضِ سَبِطَ الرَّأْسِ
Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said, “On the night of my Ascent to the Heaven … I saw Jesus, a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair.” (Bukhari, kitabul bad’ al-khalq , Hadith 3000)

عن أبي هريرة أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال ليس بيني وبينه نبي يعني عيسى وإنه نازل فإذا رأيتموه فاعرفوه رجل مربوع إلى الحمرة والبياض

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (PBUH) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (PBUH). He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognize him: a man of medium height, complexion inclined to red and white…” (Abu Dawud, Kitabul Malahim, Hadith 4324. Classified as Sahih by Albani)

This proves that the man who is described in the Ahadith to descend from the Heavens near the End of Times will be same Israelite Prophet whom the Holy Prophet (PBUH) met during the Miraculous Night (Mi’raj).
All these details upholds the unanimous Muslim belief that Jesus of Nazareth will indeed descend from the Heavens.

Cheema's argument is that جعد can also mean robust built. Overlooking the fact that virtually every published English translation of these Ahadith say "curly haired" instead of "robust built" when translating جعد in relation to Jesus. For example, let's examine the English translation of Muhammad Muhsin Khan as published by Darussalam:





Couple of things to point out here. In the first Hadith about the Mi'raj, both Musa and Eisa عليهما السلام are described by 3 particular features: complexion, hair, and body. When it comes to Musa, his complexion is Adam (brown), his hair is Sabt (straight) and his body is Jaseem (large). When it comes to Eisa, his complexion is Ahmar (red), his hair is Ja'd (curly), and he has a broad chest عريض الصدر. Now according to Waqar Cheema, جعد when applied to Jesus means he is of robust built. If hypothetically that is true, it means this Hadith has not described Eisa's hair at all, despite having described Musa's hair. So that is not only a forced interpretation it is inconsistent with the context and pattern of the Hadith. Secondly, in this Hadith Eisa's body has already been described as عريض الصدر so it would be redundant to understand جعد as describing the body of Eisa and not his hair.
I reproduce the Hadith from Bukhari for your benefit:

عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ قَالَ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ رَأَيْتُ عِيسَى وَمُوسَى وَإِبْرَاهِيمَ، فَأَمَّا عِيسَى فَأَحْمَرُ جَعْدٌ عَرِيضُ الصَّدْرِ، وَأَمَّا مُوسَى فَآدَمُ جَسِيمٌ سَبْطٌ كَأَنَّهُ مِنْ رِجَالِ الزُّطِّ
Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my Ascension to the heavens). Jesus was of red complexion, curly hair and a broad chest. Moses was of brown complexion, straight hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt." (Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith #3438)

Now there are 2 subsequent Hadiths which describe Jesus according to the Prophet's vision of him circling the Ka'ba. It is self-evidently a very different description to the one from the Mi'raj. In that Hadith it is emphasized that Jesus is dark or brown complexion "the best one can see amongst brown color". And his hair is described as lank and long reaching down to his shoulders. Then in the same Hadith Dajjal is described as having curly hair جعد. Virtually every Sharih is agreed that جعد when applied to Dajjal means he has curly hair.

To conclude, Waqar Cheema's response proves how inconsistent he is, and how he is not objective, rather trying to prove his own preconceived bias through circular arguments.
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Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2017, 12:42:11 AM »
Quote from: Hadrami
Forget about food & drinks. I doubt there is oxygen in the belly of a whale :D

It's a good point, but sayyidina Yunus عليه السلام was only in the belly of the whale for a very short period of time where it is possible for a human being to survive even without oxygen. Nevertheless, even when he was vomited out of the whale and came on dry shore he was extremely sick. The fact that he was so sick means what happened was natural, it was not anything supernatural. If it was supernatural then he would not have been extremely sick when he came out of the whale. So he was in the whale's belly for a very short period of time, but even then, being a human being, he obviously became sick and close to dying. He was not there for 2000 years, but you guys believe Jesus is living in the sky without food and nourishment for 2000 years!

ah all of sudden the poopoo false prophet fan is acting as if its natural & logical for someone to be inside a whale's belly for days and lived :D

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2017, 12:43:49 AM »

ah all of sudden the poopoo false prophet fan is acting as if its natural & logical for someone to be inside a whale's belly for days and lived :D

Who said days? I emphatically said a very short period of time.
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Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2017, 12:47:31 AM »

ah all of sudden the poopoo false prophet fan is acting as if its natural & logical for someone to be inside a whale's belly for days and lived :D

Who said days? I emphatically said a very short period of time.
i suppose you also gonna say Ibrahim AS was also burnt for a very short period of time to defend your idiotic argument?

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2017, 12:52:48 AM »

i suppose you also gonna say Ibrahim AS was also burnt for a very short period of time to defend your idiotic argument?

It's idiotic to change the topic and give analogies that are immaterial. We are discussing the fact that the Jasad (body) of a Prophet cannot survive without nourishment. We are not talking about Mu'jizaat or Khawariq al Aadat
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Hadrami

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2017, 01:35:36 AM »

i suppose you also gonna say Ibrahim AS was also burnt for a very short period of time to defend your idiotic argument?

It's idiotic to change the topic and give analogies that are immaterial. We are discussing the fact that the Jasad (body) of a Prophet cannot survive without nourishment. We are not talking about Mu'jizaat or Khawariq al Aadat
nah, a poopoo false prophet admirer like you the idiotic one. You are saying its impossible for a flesh & blood not to have food & drink, but now change the course when i show you Yunus AS didnt need oxygen to breath or Ibrahim AS flesh wasnt affected by fire. Keep dreaming about your poopoo flase prophet surely damaged your brain

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2017, 01:52:23 AM »
@zulfiqar

Seriously you have one hell (excuse the pun😃) of an imagination (thats what your evidences mainly branch out to - your own vivid personal whim filled taweel of everything under the sun).


zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2017, 01:55:07 AM »
I advise the mods on here to move all threads created by zulfiqar to one qadiani thread.
At the moment there's various threads all of which are pro qadiani filling up the forum & taking away the focus of thr actual forum i.e shia sect.

 

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