Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام

[Abu Muhammad]

What have you got to say about Ashab Al-Kahf? For sure they didn't grow roots, did they?

Do not say that sleeping is different from awake. Your body still needs sustenance regardless.

Brother read the entire thread, I already discussed the AsHab al Kahf in 2 previous entries:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/challenge-to-sunnis-ghayba-of-ibn-mariam/msg16588/#msg16588
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/challenge-to-sunnis-ghayba-of-ibn-mariam/msg16629/#msg16629

I've been following this thread all this while and read your 2 previous posts before. The arguments you brought there were basically just some random thoughts and bizzare interpretation of of the event as well. Even some of them seemed against what were stated in the quran. Here is what you said:

The Ashab al Kahf story isn't an example of Ghayba. They did not become "invisible", in fact the Holy Qur'an says that if you were to see them you would become terrified (Sura 18:18). And not to go on a tangent, but its worth studying the story of Ashab al Kahf in depth, there does seem to be some indication to me that their sleeping for 300 years may have been misunderstood and taken too literally. The Qur'an does say that if you saw them you would think they were awake, even though they were sleeping, and it says that do you think they were something strange from Our Signs (rhetorical question). Remember, the Holy Qur'an never explicitly tells us exactly how many Ashab al Kahf there were. It could be this was an entire society that had withdrawn from society into remote caves and they were described as sleeping because they were living in isolation from the rest of the world and not aware of what was going no beyond their cave. I personally have always doubted that the Ashab al Kahf refer to the legend of the 7 sleepers of Ephesus, and think that the context and lesson from this story of Ashab al Kahf matches more with certain introversionist sects of Jews and Christians that withdrew in caves and remote areas, like the Essenes and the Qumran community.

It was brief too and not surprising since your focus there were mainly on the issue of ghaybah.

Since now the sub-discussion is with regard to human body living without any sustenance for a period beyond normal, how could you substantiate your argument to disapprove the premise that those Ashab Al-Kahfi lived for hundreds of years without any foods and drink.

[Hadrami]

I advise the mods on here to move all threads created by zulfiqar to one qadiani thread.
At the moment there's various threads all of which are pro qadiani filling up the forum & taking away the focus of thr actual forum i.e shia sect.

not a good idea, this forum is made specifically for sunni vs shia issue not sunni vs poopoo false prophet discussion. Just look at how much time we have wasted replying to him.

[ZulFiqar]

I've been following this thread all this while and read your 2 previous posts before. The arguments you brought there were basically just some random thoughts and bizzare interpretation of of the event as well. Even some of them seemed against what were stated in the quran. Here is what you said:

It was brief too and not surprising since your focus there were mainly on the issue of ghaybah.

Since now the sub-discussion is with regard to human body living without any sustenance for a period beyond normal, how could you substantiate your argument to disapprove the premise that those Ashab Al-Kahfi lived for hundreds of years without any foods and drink.

The first point to understand is that the number of the AsHab al-Kahf has not been revealed

قُل رَّبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِهِم مَّا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ
Say "My Lord knows best their number, none of them know except a few" (Sura 18:22)

The second point is that AsHab is in plural. If there were a large number of them to say that they lived for hundreds of years, it is not necessarily meaning individually, but rather collectively. In other words, collectively there was a group known as "AsHab al-Kahf" that remained in the cave for 3 centuries.

The third point is that in the story of AsHab al-Kahf as related purely from the Holy Qur'an, it is never explicitly stated that they were asleep [ruqood] for the entire duration. That verse says:

وَتَحْسَبُهُمْ أَيْقَاظًا وَهُمْ رُقُودٌ
You would have imagined them to be awake, but they were asleep (Sura 18:18)

This Verse doesn't say they were asleep for the entire 300 years.

One of the questions I raised was why would we think they are awake when in reality they are sleeping? What is the secret behind this mystery? Ordinarily it is not difficult to determine if someone is awake or sleeping, especially if literal sleep is meant.

Then the Verse goes on to say:

لَوِ اطَّلَعْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ لَوَلَّيْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِرَارًا وَلَمُلِئْتَ مِنْهُمْ رُعْبًا
Had you looked at them, you would certainly have turned back from them in flight, and would certainly have been filled with awe of them.

Why would looking at a group of people that are fast asleep cause such terror in us that if we were to see them we would run for our lives? Here is another mystery that needs to be solved.

The fourth point is that Allah informs us that the story of AsHab al Kahf is nothing strange or unusual:

أَمْ حَسِبْتَ أَنَّ أَصْحَابَ الْكَهْفِ وَالرَّقِيمِ كَانُوا مِنْ آيَاتِنَا عَجَبًا
Do you think that the Companions of the Cave and Raqim were from among our Signs something strange? (Sura 18:9)

This is a rhetorical question, meaning that the Companions of the Cave were not something Ajeeb (strange, unusual, extraordinary).

So the apparent interpretation of this story, that the Companions of the Cave fell asleep for 300 years, definitely qualifies as something strange and unusual.

The fifth point is that Allah says:

فَضَرَبْنَا عَلَىٰ آذَانِهِمْ فِي الْكَهْفِ سِنِينَ عَدَدًا
So We covered their ears in the Cave for a number of years (18:11)

This has been the foundation for the popular belief that the Companions of the Cave were literally asleep for many years. But it is not explicitly clear from this wording that sleep is meant when it is said that Allah covered their ears. This simply means that they were in such a state that they were not hearing what was going on around them. Their ears were sealed. My understanding, take it or leave it, that these Companions of the Cave isolated themselves in the Cave to escape the tribulations of their time (which the Qur'an informs us about), hence, the sealing of their ears means they were isolated and not aware or hearing what was occurring in their society.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

You didn't answer why Allah Azza wa Jall says that He did not make bodies for His Messengers that can sustain without food. If Jesus is alive in heaven with his earthen body how is he being sustained without food? This is not disbelief in the unseen, this is the verdict of the Qur'an itself. I am not denying the unseen, or even extraordinary and supernatural things. But anyone who claims something extraordinary or supernatural cannot simply say "we have to believe in the Unseen". Everything we believe from the Unseen has to have a basis in divine Revelation. So it is not only a rational argument, but also a Qur'anic argument that I am making that how can Jesus be alive in his physical body in the Heavens without food or nourishment when the Holy Qur'an says the Jasad (body) of a Prophet, like that of any other Bashar, cannot survive without food.

Brother, the reason I quoted you the quranic verses with examples about believing in the unseen matters and supernatural events, is because in unseen matters or in supernatural events, you cannot question about the howness, the question about the howness itself is nonsensical. It matter of unseen, you have to believe it. If you ask me this question, neither would I deny it, nor affirm it. I say, Allah knows the best. And He is capable of providing nourshiment to His slaves anywhere He wants and anyway HE likes.

Let me demonstrate how foolish your argument.

خَلَقَ الإِنسَانَ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ فَإِذَا هُوَ خَصِيمٌ مُّبِينٌ
“He (Allah) has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!” [Quran 16:4]

Now, a person comes in and asks how did this Happen in the case of Isa's(as) birth, Did it happen through a sperm drop, and whose, etc etc. And when rebuked for his foolish question that person says, Hey i don't disbelieve in unseen, but I'm question based on  a quranic verse that Man is created from sperm. In that case, I say such a person is actually doubts in unseen in his heart, May be he doesn't realize it.

If you say that Jesus is being provided food and eating in Heaven, then you have contradicted another Verse of the Holy Qur'an:

كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ الطَّعَامَ
Both Jesus and his mother Mary used to eat food (Sura 5:75).

It could be interpreted as earthly food. But for Isa(as) that would be Heavenly food. Or there is another possibility of remaining without food, take example of Uzayr(as) and the Ashaab Kahf whose body remained for many years without any change in them and without food.

But again, I would like to emphasize on the point that the heavenly dimension where Isa(as) is living, there the time hasn't changed much. This I demonstrated through the description of hair of Isa(as) from which water was dropping at the time of his ascend, and when Prophet(saws) him in his dream, as well as when he will descend.

There is difference of opinion of the Mufassireen regarding the donkey. The grammatical structure of the Ayah makes it clear that the donkey, like his food and drink, did not change or decay.
وَانظُرْ إِلَىٰ حِمَارِكَ
"And look to your donkey"
The Waw here is al-Waw 'Aatifah, meaning this is the Waw that is a prefixed conjunction. The idea that the donkey had decayed into bones doesn't fit with the grammar of the Verse.

Well first I presented the view from Tafseer Ibn KAtheer, since you seem to it when bringing argument against me, hence i did the same in my turn. Anyways, now I present few more Tafseers, who adopted this view, and these guys were excerpts in their field and Quranic Grammer, so let the readers judge whose view they adopt.

1. Or (bethink thee) the like of him who, passing by a township) He says: do you not know about 'Uzayr Ibn Shurahya who passed by the township of Dayr Hiraql (which had fallen into utter ruin, exclaimed: How shall Allah give this township life after its death) How can Allah bring the people of this township back to life after their death? (So Allah made him die) right on the spot (a hundred years, then brought him back to life) at the end of the day. (He) Allah (said: How long hast thou tarried) O 'Uzayr? (He said: I have tarried for a day) and then looked at the sun still in the horizon and said (or part of a day. He) Allah (said: Nay, but thou hast tarried) you were dead (for a hundred years. Just look at thy food) figs and grapes (and drink) juice (which have not rotted! Look at thine ass!) look at the bones of your ass how white they look! (And, that We may make thee a token) a sign (to mankind) regarding the matter of bringing the dead to life, that they will be resurrected in the same state they died in, because 'Uzayr died young and was brought back to life as a young person. It is said that Allah made him a lesson for people, for he died when he was 40 years old and was brought back to life when his son was 120 years old, (look at the bones) the bones of your ass, (how We adjust them and then cover them with flesh!) after this. He then said: We will make grow on it nerves and veins, flesh, skin and hair and put the spirit in it. (And when (the matter) became clear unto him) how Allah gathers the bones, (he said: I know) I had known (that Allah is Able to do all things) of life and death. [Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs]

2. Or did you see such as he Ezra ‘Uzayr who the kāf of ka’lladhī ‘such as he who’ is extra passed by a city namely the Holy House sc. Jerusalem riding on an ass and carrying with him a basket of figs and a cup of juice a city that was fallen down collapsed upon its turrets its roof tops after Nebuchadnezzar had destroyed it; he said ‘How annā means kayfa ‘how’ shall God give life to this now that it is dead?’ challenging the power of the exalted One so God made him die and remain dead for a hundred years then he raised him up brought him back to life to show him how this could be done; He God said ‘How long have you tarried?’ been here?; he said ‘I have tarried a day or part of a day’ because he fell asleep before noon and was made dead and then brought back to life again at sunset and thus he thought it was a day’s sleep; He said ‘Nay; you have tarried a hundred years. Look at your food the figs and drink the cup of juice it has not spoiled despite the length of time the final hā’ of yatasannah ‘to spoil’ is said to belong to the original root s-n-h; but it is also said to be silent in which case the root would be s-n-y; a variant reading omits the final hā’; and look at your ass how it is and he saw that it had died and all that remained were its withered white bones. We did this so that you would know and so that We would make you a sign of the truth of the Resurrection for the people. And look at the bones of the ass how We shall set them up how We shall raise them back to life nunshiruhā or nanshiruhā derived from the two expressions nashara and anshara; a variant reading has nunshizuhā meaning ‘How We shall move it and make it stand’; and then clothe them with flesh’ and when he looked at it he saw that the bones had been reconstituted and clothed with flesh and that the Spirit had been breathed into it making it bray. So when it was made clear to him as a result of witnessing it he said ‘I know a variant reading for a‘lam ‘I know’ has the imperative i‘lam ‘know!’ thus making it a command from God with the knowledge of direct vision that God has power over all things’. [Tafsir al-Jalalayn]

[ZulFiqar]

Brother, the reason I quoted you the quranic verses with examples about believing in the unseen matters and supernatural events, is because in unseen matters or in supernatural events, you cannot question about the howness, the question about the howness itself is nonsensical. It matter of unseen, you have to believe it. If you ask me this question, neither would I deny it, nor affirm it. I say, Allah knows the best. And He is capable of providing nourshiment to His slaves anywhere He wants and anyway HE likes.

I am not questioning the howness or modality of something that is unseen, I am disputing your belief to be true that Jesus is alive in the Heavens with his earthen body, because such a belief doesn't have any proof from the Quran. This is like debating a Twelver Shi'ite about the ghayba of the 12th Imam. If he says "Don't question about the howness of the Unseen" your answer to him is "first prove it is a matter of the unseen and not a fabrication"

Let me demonstrate how foolish your argument.

خَلَقَ الإِنسَانَ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ فَإِذَا هُوَ خَصِيمٌ مُّبِينٌ
“He (Allah) has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!” [Quran 16:4]

Now, a person comes in and asks how did this Happen in the case of Isa's(as) birth, Did it happen through a sperm drop, and whose, etc etc. And when rebuked for his foolish question that person says, Hey i don't disbelieve in unseen, but I'm question based on  a quranic verse that Man is created from sperm. In that case, I say such a person is actually doubts in unseen in his heart, May be he doesn't realize it.

Sayyidina Isa عليه السلام being from the progeny of Adam like all of humanity was indeed created from the Nutfah of sayyidina Adam عليه السلام.
The only exception to this is Adam and Eve, but that exception is already implied in the Verse, since the Nutfah that is mentioned there is the Nutfah of sayyidina Adam عليه السلام through which al-Insaan (humanity) was created, including sayyidina Isa عليه السلام.

It could be interpreted as earthly food. But for Isa(as) that would be Heavenly food. Or there is another possibility of remaining without food

Ta'am means food, especially that which grows from the earth. The Qur'an says that the Jasad (Body) of a Prophet cannot survive without Ta'am (earthly food) see Sura 21:8. So there is no possibility of remaining without food with one's Jasad. Now it is your aqida that Jesus was raised to Heaven with this Jasad. If you said only the Ruh of Jesus was raised to Heaven, then yes, there is the possibility to remain without food, or with "heavenly food". But since your aqida is tied to the raising up of the Jasad, there is no way your belief can escape the being cut apart with the knife of Sura 21:8

take example of Uzayr(as) and the Ashaab Kahf whose body remained for many years without any change in them and without food.

I've already discussed both of these 2 examples at length.

But again, I would like to emphasize on the point that the heavenly dimension where Isa(as) is living, there the time hasn't changed much. This I demonstrated through the description of hair of Isa(as) from which water was dropping at the time of his ascend, and when Prophet(saws) him in his dream, as well as when he will descend.

You quoted the Athar of a Sahabi which is not a Hujjah in the Din. Secondly, I proved that there are 2 opposing descriptions of the physical appearance of Jesus, 1 from the vision of him during the Mi'raj, where he is described as being reddish complexion, curly hair, and broad chest, and the other from the vision of him circling the Ka'ba, where he is described as brown, the best kind of brown, with straight lank hair reaching down to his shoulders (Bukhari).

Well first I presented the view from Tafseer Ibn KAtheer, since you seem to it when bringing argument against me, hence i did the same in my turn. Anyways, now I present few more Tafseers, who adopted this view, and these guys were excerpts in their field and Quranic Grammer, so let the readers judge whose view they adopt.

I mentioned earlier that the Mufassireen have ikhtilaaf in the issue of the donkey. If all of the Mufassireen were in agreement, then your argument would be strong that they were experts in the field of grammar so no need to oppose their agreed upon opinion. But that simply isn't the case. Here I will quote from an even better and older Tafsir than Ibn Kathir, which is the Tafsir of Ibn Jarir:

وقال آخرون: بل جعل الله الروح فـي رأسه وبصره وجسده ميتاً، فرأى حماره قائما كهيئته يوم ربطه وطعامه وشرابه كهيئته يوم حلّ البقعة، ثم قال الله له: انظر إلـى عظام نفسك كيف ننشزها. ذكر من قال ذلك:

حدثنـي مـحمد بن سهل بن عسكر، قال: ثنا إسماعيـل بن عبد الكريم، قال: ثنـي عبد الصمد بن معقل أنه سمع وهب بن منبه يقول: ردّ الله روح الـحياة فـي عين أرمياء وآخر جسده ميت، فنظر إلـى طعامه وشرابه لـم يتسنه، ونظر إلـى حماره واقـفـاً كهيئته يوم ربطه، لـم يطعم ولـم يشرب، ونظر إلـى الرمة فـي عنق الـحمار لـم تتغير جديدة.

حدثت عن الـحسن، قال: سمعت أبـا معاذ، قال: ثنا عبـيد بن سلـيـمان، قال: سمعت الضحاك يقول فـي قوله: { فَأَمَاتَهُ ٱللَّهُ مِاْئَةَ عَامٍ ثُمَّ بَعَثَهُ } فنظر إلـى حماره قائماً قد مكث مائة عام، وإلـى طعامه لـم يتغير قد أتـى علـيه مائة عام. { وَٱنظُرْ إِلَى ٱلعِظَامِ كَيْفَ نُنشِزُهَا ثُمَّ نَكْسُوهَا لَحْمًا } فكان أول شيء أحيا الله منه رأسه، فجعل ينظر إلـى سائر خـلقه يخـلق.

حدثنـي الـمثنى، قال: ثنا إسحاق، قال: ثنا أبو زهير، عن جويبر، عن الضحاك فـي قوله: { فَأَمَاتَهُ ٱللَّهُ مِاْئَةَ عَامٍ ثُمَّ بَعَثَهُ } فنظر إلـى حماره قائماً، وإلـى طعامه وشرابه لـم يتغير، فكان أول شيء خـلق منه رأسه، فجعل ينظر إلـى كل شيء منه يوصل بعضه إلـى بعض. فلـما تبـين له، قال: أعلـم أن الله علـى كل شيء قدير.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=259&tDisplay=yes&Page=14&Size=1&LanguageId=1

حدثنـي يونس، قال: أخبرنا ابن وهب، قال: أخبرنا ابن زيد قال قوله: { وَٱنظُرْ إِلَىٰ طَعَامِكَ وَشَرَابِكَ لَمْ يَتَسَنَّهْ وَٱنظُرْ إِلَىٰ حِمَارِكَ } واقـفـاً علـيك منذ مائة سنة

حدثنـي يونس، قال: أخبرنا ابن وهب، قال: أخبرنـي بكر بن مضر، قال: يزعمون فـي بعض الكتب أن الله أمات أرمياء مائة عام، ثم بعثه، فإذا حماره حيّ قائم علـى ربـاطه

So all of the narrations from the Muhaddithin I have quoted above are affirming the fact that the donkey was standing and remained as it was, it did not die and decay into bones.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

What is Isa AS eating right now, did the donkey decay or not...

You make the practioners of kalaam seem normal compared to you!!😂😂

[Abu Muhammad]

The challenge was for you to prove the impossibility of Ashab Al-Kahfi to live beyond a normal period of time without any sustenance. But none of your 5 points addresssing that. Instead, you interpreted the event with some unrelated argument.

1st argument:

The first point to understand is that the number of the AsHab al-Kahf has not been revealed

قُل رَّبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِهِم مَّا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ
Say "My Lord knows best their number, none of them know except a few" (Sura 18:22)

How does the their number prove the impossibility of Ashab Al-Kahfi to live beyond a normal period of time without any sustenance?


2nd argument:

The second point is that AsHab is in plural. If there were a large number of them to say that they lived for hundreds of years, it is not necessarily meaning individually, but rather collectively. In other words, collectively there was a group known as "AsHab al-Kahf" that remained in the cave for 3 centuries.

Again, how does the number prove the impossibility of Ashab Al-Kahfi to live beyond a normal period of time without any sustenance?

3rd argument:

The third point is that in the story of AsHab al-Kahf as related purely from the Holy Qur'an, it is never explicitly stated that they were asleep [ruqood] for the entire duration. That verse says:

وَتَحْسَبُهُمْ أَيْقَاظًا وَهُمْ رُقُودٌ
You would have imagined them to be awake, but they were asleep (Sura 18:18)

This Verse doesn't say they were asleep for the entire 300 years.

One of the questions I raised was why would we think they are awake when in reality they are sleeping? What is the secret behind this mystery? Ordinarily it is not difficult to determine if someone is awake or sleeping, especially if literal sleep is meant.

Then the Verse goes on to say:

لَوِ اطَّلَعْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ لَوَلَّيْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِرَارًا وَلَمُلِئْتَ مِنْهُمْ رُعْبًا
Had you looked at them, you would certainly have turned back from them in flight, and would certainly have been filled with awe of them.

Why would looking at a group of people that are fast asleep cause such terror in us that if we were to see them we would run for our lives? Here is another mystery that needs to be solved.

How does that prove the impossibility of Ashab Al-Kahfi to live beyond a normal period of time without any sustenance?

4th argument:

The fourth point is that Allah informs us that the story of AsHab al Kahf is nothing strange or unusual:

أَمْ حَسِبْتَ أَنَّ أَصْحَابَ الْكَهْفِ وَالرَّقِيمِ كَانُوا مِنْ آيَاتِنَا عَجَبًا
Do you think that the Companions of the Cave and Raqim were from among our Signs something strange? (Sura 18:9)

This is a rhetorical question, meaning that the Companions of the Cave were not something Ajeeb (strange, unusual, extraordinary).

So the apparent interpretation of this story, that the Companions of the Cave fell asleep for 300 years, definitely qualifies as something strange and unusual.

Again, how does that prove the impossibility of Ashab Al-Kahfi to live beyond a normal period of time without any sustenance?


5th argument:

The fifth point is that Allah says:

فَضَرَبْنَا عَلَىٰ آذَانِهِمْ فِي الْكَهْفِ سِنِينَ عَدَدًا
So We covered their ears in the Cave for a number of years (18:11)

This has been the foundation for the popular belief that the Companions of the Cave were literally asleep for many years. But it is not explicitly clear from this wording that sleep is meant when it is said that Allah covered their ears. This simply means that they were in such a state that they were not hearing what was going on around them. Their ears were sealed. My understanding, take it or leave it, that these Companions of the Cave isolated themselves in the Cave to escape the tribulations of their time (which the Qur'an informs us about), hence, the sealing of their ears means they were isolated and not aware or hearing what was occurring in their society.

And finally, again, how does that prove the impossibility of Ashab Al-Kahfi to live beyond a normal period of time without any sustenance?


You see. None of your 5 points addresssing the issue raised. Instead, you interpreted the event with some unrelated arguments indeed.

Some notes for you before you reply anything:

1. Those guys were a group of youths. This is proven from the word "fityatun" as addressed by Allah. Hence, it doesn't fit "the entire society" as you previously suggested.

2. Looking at verse 17, it was clearly stated that the rising and setting of the sun observable from the cave. And yet, in verse 19, they were questioning among themselves how long they were in the cave with their guessing were a day or half. If they were not sleeping and been living in the cave for 300 years, this conversation of theirs must have not been arisen.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Waqar Akbar Cheema has presented nothing but circular arguments here. His main point is that the narrator must have made a mistake because Jesus can obviously have only 1 complexion. So he is arguing against the apparent purport of these narrations that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم described Jesus with 2 opposing physical descriptions by saying it must be a mistake because there can only be 1 description. This is nothing but a circular argument. Even if we take at face value the explanation that Jesus was not of reddish complexion, but somewhere in between the reddish and white complexion, it still doesn't negate the fact that in the Vision of the Ka'ba, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم described him as being Adam which means dark and brown.

This is what Imam Nawawi was trying to explain whom Waqar Akbar quoted.

Al-Nawawi has written the same in his commentary to the Hadith that speaks of red complexion of Jesus (PBUH):

وَأَنَّهُ اِشْتَبَهَ عَلَى الرَّاوِي فَيَجُوز أَنْ يُتَأَوَّل الْأَحْمَر عَلَى الْأَدَم ، وَلَا يَكُون الْمُرَاد حَقِيقَة الْأُدْمَة وَالْحُمْرَة بَلْ مَا قَارَبَهَا

“And this is confusion on the part of the narrator and perhaps he took red to be wheat-like(Adam) and it does not mean tan or red but what is near to it.” (Sharah Al-Nawawi on Sahih Muslim 1/302, Kitabul Iman).

Some other scholars have also explained these hadeeth.

Al-Qurtubi may Allaah have mercy upon him in his commentary on the Muwatta’,

    “Al-Qurtubi said, "Perhaps the dark complexion turned a brownish color close to red, as was the prevalent color among the Arabs. The two versions of the report can thereby be reconciled."”

As-Saffaareeni may Allaah have mercy upon him said,

    “There is no contradiction between reddish and dark skin because his brownish color could have been unmixed as stated earlier … The term Aadam denotes slight brownness, and having an unmixed complexion does not prevent reddishness. Ibn Hajar said, "This is because many people with dark complexion may have reddish cheeks."” [Lawaami‘ Al-Anwaar]

Taken from
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=298744

In my view this was an error from the narrators who narrated, they narrated the narration describing Isa(as) as per the meaning, this is a style of narrating which is accepted. Since the complexion of isa(as) was not a matter of Aqeedah, they were lenient when narrating it. But that doesn't make any impact on the fact which they reported about Aqeedah about the descend of Isa(as).

Cheema's argument is that جعد can also mean robust built. Overlooking the fact that virtually every published English translation of these Ahadith say "curly haired" instead of "robust built" when translating جعد in relation to Jesus. For example, let's examine the English translation of Muhammad Muhsin Khan as published by Darussalam:

Here is the translation of the word (جعد) from Abdul Hamid Siddiqui in Sahih Muslim. He translated it well-built.

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Secondly, here is the what Ibn Hajar had to say about this issue.

Ibn Hajar may Allaah have mercy upon him reconciled the two Ahaadeeth saying, “The version of the Hadeeth narrated on the authority of Saalim says that ʻEesa had straight hair. The Hadeeth that preceded it described him as being "compact"; the latter refers to his body and not hair. It means he was stocky and sturdy.” [Fat-h Al-Baari]

Taken from:
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=290587

Al-Nawawi has also said the very same. He writes;

الْمُرَاد بِالْجَعْدِ هُنَا جُعُودَة الْجِسْم وَهُوَ اِجْتِمَاعه وَاكْتِنَازه وَلَيْسَ الْمُرَاد جُعُودَة الشَّعْر
.
“Here جَعْدِ means firmness of the body i.e. its compactness and being thickset. And it does not refer to curling of the hair’ (Sharah Al-Nawawi on Sahih Muslim 1/296, Kitabul Iman)

So this actually kills the argument using the word Ja'ad.

Couple of things to point out here. In the first Hadith about the Mi'raj, both Musa and Eisa عليهما السلام are described by 3 particular features: complexion, hair, and body. When it comes to Musa, his complexion is Adam (brown), his hair is Sabt (straight) and his body is Jaseem (large). When it comes to Eisa, his complexion is Ahmar (red), his hair is Ja'd (curly), and he has a broad chest عريض الصدر. Now according to Waqar Cheema, جعد when applied to Jesus means he is of robust built. If hypothetically that is true, it means this Hadith has not described Eisa's hair at all, despite having described Musa's hair. So that is not only a forced interpretation it is inconsistent with the context and pattern of the Hadith. Secondly, in this Hadith Eisa's body has already been described as عريض الصدر so it would be redundant to understand جعد as describing the body of Eisa and not his hair.

Firstly, Waqar didn't bring that explanation out of thin air, rather this view was referred by Imam Ibn Hajar and Imam Nawawi.

Secondly, this argument is unacademic and childish. If you have knowledge of hadeeth science, you would have known that not every hadeeth contains all details, sometimes, the narrators drop some points, which we find in other reports. This is quite a common knowledge to students knowledge. Let me educate you by giving an example:

حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا غُنْدَرٌ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا الْعَالِيَةِ، حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ عَمِّ، نَبِيِّكُمْ ـ يَعْنِي ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ يَنْبَغِي لِعَبْدٍ أَنْ يَقُولَ أَنَا خَيْرٌ مِنْ يُونُسَ بْنِ مَتَّى ‏"‏‏.‏ وَنَسَبَهُ إِلَى أَبِيهِ‏.‏ وَذَكَرَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم لَيْلَةَ أُسْرِيَ بِهِ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ مُوسَى آدَمُ طُوَالٌ كَأَنَّهُ مِنْ رِجَالِ شَنُوءَةَ ‏"‏‏.‏ وَقَالَ ‏"‏ عِيسَى جَعْدٌ مَرْبُوعٌ ‏"‏‏.‏ وَذَكَرَ مَالِكًا خَازِنَ النَّارِ، وَذَكَرَ الدَّجَّالَ

(Sahih Bukhari, 3395, 3396)

Here you see even the type of Hairs of Musa(as) are not mentioned, so this evidence shatters your unacademic argument.

But I will quote another report where we find the type of hair of Isa(as) when Prophet(Saws) saw him in heaven.

وَحَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ بْنُ حُمَيْدٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا يُونُسُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا شَيْبَانُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي الْعَالِيَةِ، حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ عَمِّ، نَبِيِّكُمْ صلى الله عليه وسلم ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَرَرْتُ لَيْلَةَ أُسْرِيَ بِي عَلَى مُوسَى بْنِ عِمْرَانَ - عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ - رَجُلٌ آدَمُ طُوَالٌ جَعْدٌ كَأَنَّهُ مِنْ رِجَالِ شَنُوءَةَ وَرَأَيْتُ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ مَرْبُوعَ الْخَلْقِ إِلَى الْحُمْرَةِ وَالْبَيَاضِ سَبِطَ الرَّأْسِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَأُرِيَ مَالِكًا خَازِنَ النَّارِ وَالدَّجَّالَ ‏.‏ فِي آيَاتٍ أَرَاهُنَّ اللَّهُ إِيَّاهُ فَلاَ تَكُنْ فِي مِرْيَةٍ مِنْ لِقَائِهِ ‏.‏ قَالَ كَانَ قَتَادَةُ يُفَسِّرُهَا أَنَّ نَبِيَّ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَدْ لَقِيَ مُوسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ ‏.‏
 Abu al-'Aliya reported: Ibn Abbas, the son of your Prophet's uncle, told us that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had observed: On the night of my night journey I passed by Moses b. 'Imran (peace be upon him), a man light brown in complexion, tall. well-built as if he was one of the men of the Shanu'a, and saw Jesus son of Mary as a medium-statured man with white and red complexion and crisp hair, and I was shown Malik the guardian of Fire, and Dajjal amongst the signs which were shown to me by Allah. He (the narrator) observed: Then do not doubt his (i. e. of the Holy Prophet) meeting with him (Moses). Qatada elucidated it thus: Verily the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), met Moses (peace be upon him).

So, now the same hair can be found for Isa(as) around Kabah.

حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ نُمَيْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي، حَدَّثَنَا حَنْظَلَةُ، عَنْ سَالِمٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ رَأَيْتُ عِنْدَ الْكَعْبَةِ رَجُلاً آدَمَ سَبِطَ الرَّأْسِ وَاضِعًا يَدَيْهِ عَلَى رَجُلَيْنِ ‏.‏ يَسْكُبُ رَأْسُهُ - أَوْ يَقْطُرُ رَأْسُهُ - فَسَأَلْتُ مَنْ هَذَا فَقَالُوا عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ أَوِ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ - لاَ نَدْرِي أَىَّ ذَلِكَ قَالَ - وَرَأَيْتُ وَرَاءَهُ رَجُلاً أَحْمَرَ جَعْدَ الرَّأْسِ أَعْوَرَ الْعَيْنِ الْيُمْنَى أَشْبَهُ مَنْ رَأَيْتُ بِهِ ابْنُ قَطَنٍ فَسَأَلْتُ مَنْ هَذَا فَقَالُوا الْمَسِيحُ الدَّجَّالُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
(Sahih Muslim 169 c)

Hence your unacademic arguments gets destroyed.

To conclude, Waqar Cheema's response proves how inconsistent he is, and how he is not objective, rather trying to prove his own preconceived bias through circular arguments.[/size][/font]

The conclusion is that, its your lack of knowledge and lack of objectivity, due to which you aren't able to grasp the issue.

Anyways I would like to repeat for the benefit of readers that, these side details of physical descriptions of Prophets, doesn't make any difference, since they aren't a matter of Aqeedah, but what matters the Aqeedah is his descend. And I will present a hadeeth now, we find that in his descend Isa(as) is described as Reddish, this is the same complexion mentioned when Prophet Muhammad(saws) met Isa(as) in heavens. SO THE ONE WHO PROPHET(SAWS) MET IN HEAVEN IS THE SAME PERSON WHO WILL DESCEND.

حَدَّثَنَا هُدْبَةُ بْنُ خَالِدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا هَمَّامُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ آدَمَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لَيْسَ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَهُ نَبِيٌّ - يَعْنِي عِيسَى - وَإِنَّهُ نَازِلٌ فَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمُوهُ فَاعْرِفُوهُ رَجُلٌ مَرْبُوعٌ إِلَى الْحُمْرَةِ وَالْبَيَاضِ بَيْنَ مُمَصَّرَتَيْنِ كَأَنَّ رَأْسَهُ يَقْطُرُ وَإِنْ لَمْ يُصِبْهُ بَلَلٌ فَيُقَاتِلُ النَّاسَ عَلَى الإِسْلاَمِ فَيَدُقُّ الصَّلِيبَ وَيَقْتُلُ الْخِنْزِيرَ وَيَضَعُ الْجِزْيَةَ وَيُهْلِكُ اللَّهُ فِي زَمَانِهِ الْمِلَلَ كُلَّهَا إِلاَّ الإِسْلاَمَ وَيُهْلِكُ الْمَسِيحَ الدَّجَّالَ فَيَمْكُثُ فِي الأَرْضِ أَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً ثُمَّ يُتَوَفَّى فَيُصَلِّي عَلَيْهِ الْمُسْلِمُونَ
 Narrated Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet (ﷺ) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (ﷺ). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. [Sunan Abi Dawud 4324; Grading : Sahih As per Al-Albani]

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

I am not questioning the howness or modality of something that is unseen, I am disputing your belief to be true that Jesus is alive in the Heavens with his earthen body, because such a belief doesn't have any proof from the Quran. This is like debating a Twelver Shi'ite about the ghayba of the 12th Imam. If he says "Don't question about the howness of the Unseen" your answer to him is "first prove it is a matter of the unseen and not a fabrication"

You are comparing apples with oranges. We mock Shia belief of GHaybah, because they can't prove their birth of their 12th Imam. All they have are dubious reports which raise questions about the birth of their Imam itself. Secondly, we mock them saying that when Isa(as) couldn't be a guide to his after his departure, then how could their Imam be a guide after his departure.

Sayyidina Isa عليه السلام being from the progeny of Adam like all of humanity was indeed created from the Nutfah of sayyidina Adam عليه السلام.
The only exception to this is Adam and Eve, but that exception is already implied in the Verse, since the Nutfah that is mentioned there is the Nutfah of sayyidina Adam عليه السلام through which al-Insaan (humanity) was created, including sayyidina Isa عليه السلام.

The question was about exact Father of Isa(As).

يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ
Coming from between the back and the ribs.(86:7).

Or do you believe that, the biological father of Isa(as) is Adam(as). And he should be called Isa ibn Adam? Like Muhammad(saws) was called Muhammad ibn Abdullah because his biological father was Abdullah.

If you said only the Ruh of Jesus was raised to Heaven, then yes, there is the possibility to remain without food, or with "heavenly food".

As for the evidence that Isa(as) would return in a physical body then, the Marfoo hadeeth from Prophet(saws) describes that when Isa(As) would descend, he will be wearing clothes, water would drop from his hair, He would place his hands on the wings of angels, which signifies that it would be for support while descending, and only a physical body would need to do that.

Allah would send Jesus, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. [ Sahih Muslim 2937 a]

So since it is proven that Isa(As) would descend in the form of physical body, wearing clothes, water dropping from his hairs, taking support by placing hands on wings of angels, then its common sense to believe that He was raised to heaven alive(which is supported by Mawqoof Sahih reports). This even backs all those ambiguous evidences which mentions about ascend of Isa(as) used by Sunnis. This shows the strongness of the Aqeedah of Ahlusunnah.

I've already discussed both of these 2 examples at length.

Nothing seemed to be consistent with the Aqeedah of early generations. Nor rational. Infact the argument of Ashab kahf was ridiculous.

You quoted the Athar of a Sahabi which is not a Hujjah in the Din.

For Sunnis it is hujjah. Hence we believe in it. Your objection is over ruled.

But do you agree that, the condition of hair of Isa(as) when he saw in his dream is same, as how his hair would be at the time of his descend. BOTH ARE MARFOO HADEETH.

 It is narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I saw near the Ka'bah a man of fair complexion with straight hair, placing his hands on two persons. Water was flowing from his head or it was trickling from his head. I asked: Who is he? They said: He is Jesus son of Mary or al-Masih son of Mary. The narrator) says: I do not remember which word it was. He (the Holy Prophet) said: And I saw behind him a man with red complexion and thick curly hair, blind in the right eye. I saw in him the greatest resemblance with Ibn Qitan I asked: Who is he? They replied: It is al-Masih al-Dajjal. [Sahih Muslim 169 c]

بَعَثَ اللَّهُ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ فَيَنْزِلُ عِنْدَ الْمَنَارَةِ الْبَيْضَاءِ شَرْقِيَّ دِمَشْقَ بَيْنَ مَهْرُودَتَيْنِ وَاضِعًا كَفَّيْهِ عَلَى أَجْنِحَةِ مَلَكَيْنِ إِذَا طَأْطَأَ رَأَسَهُ قَطَرَ وَإِذَا رَفَعَهُ تَحَدَّرَ مِنْهُ جُمَانٌ كَاللُّؤْلُؤِ فَلاَ يَحِلُّ
Allah would send Jesus, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. (Sahih Muslim 2937 a).

Secondly, I proved that there are 2 opposing descriptions of the physical appearance of Jesus, 1 from the vision of him during the Mi'raj, where he is described as being reddish complexion, curly hair, and broad chest, and the other from the vision of him circling the Ka'ba, where he is described as brown, the best kind of brown, with straight lank hair reaching down to his shoulders (Bukhari).

These unacademic arguments have been answered in my previous post. Alhamdulillah.

Anyways I would like to repeat for the benefit of readers that, these side details of physical descriptions of Prophets, doesn't make any difference, since they aren't a matter of Aqeedah, but what matters the Aqeedah is his descend. And I will present a hadeeth now, we find that in his descend Isa(as) is described as Reddish, this is the same complexion mentioned when Prophet Muhammad(saws) met Isa(as) in heavens. SO THE ONE WHO PROPHET(SAWS) MET IN HEAVEN IS THE SAME PERSON WHO WILL DESCEND.

حَدَّثَنَا هُدْبَةُ بْنُ خَالِدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا هَمَّامُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ آدَمَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لَيْسَ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَهُ نَبِيٌّ - يَعْنِي عِيسَى - وَإِنَّهُ نَازِلٌ فَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمُوهُ فَاعْرِفُوهُ رَجُلٌ مَرْبُوعٌ إِلَى الْحُمْرَةِ وَالْبَيَاضِ بَيْنَ مُمَصَّرَتَيْنِ كَأَنَّ رَأْسَهُ يَقْطُرُ وَإِنْ لَمْ يُصِبْهُ بَلَلٌ فَيُقَاتِلُ النَّاسَ عَلَى الإِسْلاَمِ فَيَدُقُّ الصَّلِيبَ وَيَقْتُلُ الْخِنْزِيرَ وَيَضَعُ الْجِزْيَةَ وَيُهْلِكُ اللَّهُ فِي زَمَانِهِ الْمِلَلَ كُلَّهَا إِلاَّ الإِسْلاَمَ وَيُهْلِكُ الْمَسِيحَ الدَّجَّالَ فَيَمْكُثُ فِي الأَرْضِ أَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً ثُمَّ يُتَوَفَّى فَيُصَلِّي عَلَيْهِ الْمُسْلِمُونَ
 Narrated Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet (ﷺ) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (ﷺ). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. [Sunan Abi Dawud 4324; Grading : Sahih As per Al-Albani]

[zaid_ibn_ali]

@zulfiqar can you provide me with any Quranic ayat or a hadith which mentions there will be any messiahs other than Isa AS & the mahdi?

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

That is based off of the saying of a Sahabi and not a Hujjah.

Beliefs of Sahaba are Hujjah for Ahlus-sunnah, except when they are countered by the beliefs taught by Prophet(saws) or Jumhoor Sahaba. As I promised, I'll list out some evidences.

Evidence from Quran to follow Sahaba:

And whoever acts hostilely to the Messenger after that guidance has become manifest to him, and follows other than the way of the believers(Sahaba), We will turn him to that to which he has (himself) turned and make him enter hell; and it is an evil resort.(4:115)

And when it is said to them: Believe as the people(sahaba) believe they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.(2:13)

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement.(9:100).

 And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists. : Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. If then they believe as you(Sahaba) believe in Him, they are indeed on the right course, and if they turn back, then they are only in great opposition, so Allah will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.(2:135-137).

Evidence from Hadeeth:

The Prophet Muhammed (May the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) also said: “Indeed the people of the Book before you split into seventy-two sects. And this nation will split into seventy-three sects, seventy-two are in the Fire and one in Paradise”. And in another narration, “All are in the Fire except one.” It was asked: Who is that one? He replied, “That which I and my Companions are upon” Related by at-Tirmidhi (5/62) and al-Haakim (1/128). It has been authenticated by al-Haafidh al-Iraaqee in Takhreejul-Ihyaa (3/199) and Sheikh Albani authenticated it in Saheeh at-Tirmizi 2641. He said it’s hasan(good).
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Evidence from the sayings of Salaf:

1. Ibn Abbas said to Khawarij in his debate.
أتيتكم من عند صحابة النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم من المهاجرين والأنصار ، لأبلغكم ما يقولون المخبرون بما يقولون فعليهم نزل القرآن ، وهم أعلم بالوحي منكم ،
I came to you from Muhajireen and Ansar, the companions of the Prophet peace be upon him to convey their message to you. They are the people who know what they say (from Quran and sunnah), The Qur`an was revealed in front of them and they know about the (meaning of) Wahyy (Quran) more than you. [al Musradrak al Hakim no. 2656, al Hakim said: It is authentic upon the conditions of Muslim, ad-Dahabi agreed with him]

2.

وقد ذكر سنيد قال حدثنا معتمر عن سلام بن مسكين عن قتادة قال قال ابن مسعود: من كان منكم متأسيا فليتأس بأصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فإنهم كانوا أبر هذه الأمة قلوبا، وأعمقها علما، وأقلها تكلفا، وأقومها هديا، وأحسنها حالا، آختارهم الله لصحبة نبيه صلى الله عليه وسلم وإقامة دينه، فاعرفوا لهم فضلهم، واتبعوهم في آثارهم، فإنهم كانوا على الهدى المستقيم.

‘Abd-Allah ibn Mas’ood(ra) said: “Whoever wants to follow an example, let him follow the example of those who have passed away, the Companions of Muhammad (S). They were the best of this ummah, the purest in heart, the DEEPEST in knowledge, the least in sophistication. They were people whom Allah chose to be the Companions of His Prophet (S) and to convey His religion, so imitate their ways and behaviour, for they were following the Straight Path.” [Tafseer Al-Qurtabi and Sharh as-Sunnah of Al-Baghawi]

3. Similarly we read:

1143 – وحدثنا ابن عبد الحميد قال : حدثنا يعقوب بن إبراهيم الدورقي قال : حدثنا حكام بن سلم الرازي ، عن عمرو بن أبي قيس ، عن عبد ربه قال : كنا عند الحسن في مجلس ، فذكر كلاما ، وذكر أصحاب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : « أولئك أصحاب محمد كانوا أبر هذه الأمة قلوبا ، وأعمقها علما ، وأقلها تكلفا ، قوم اختارهم الله عز وجل لصحبة نبيه ، وإقامة دينه ، فتشبهوا بأخلاقهم وطرائقهم ، فإنهم كانوا ورب الكعبة على الهدي المستقيم »
Al-Hasan Al-Basri said: Those are the companions of Mohammad, best in the heart, DEEPEST in knowledge, without going out of their way. They were chosen by Allah to accompany his prophet, to stabilize the religion, so follow their manners and ways, for by Allah they were on the straight path.( Al-Sharee’a by Al-Ajurri 1143)

In the first report, Abdullah ibn Masood is telling the Tabaeen, who are the second greatest generation, to follow those who have passed away, that is the companions(sahaba) of Muhammad(saw). Abdullah ibn Masood(ra) was saying this in the time of second best generation(Tabaeen). And he gives some reasons for following the Sahaba, one of which is, “they were DEEPEST in knowledge” – notice here the choice of words, Abdullah Ibn Masood(ra) as well as Hasan Al-Basri(rah) didn’t say, Sahaba had the MOST knowledge, but they said Sahaba had the DEEPEST knowledge; because there were people who came after Sahaba, who might know things which Sahaba may not have known, for example Imam Al-Bukhari knew more ahadeeth than many Sahaba, because he knew of ahadeeth which different Sahaba had, he knew ahadeeth which Umar(ra) had, which Ali(ra) had, which Ibn Abbas(ra) had, which Abu Huraira(ra) had, which Ayesha(ra) had, etc, He was an encyclopaedia of Hadeeth. So Abdullah ibn Masood(ra) and Hasan Al-Basri didn’t say they had the most knowledge, but they said Sahaba had the DEEPEST knowledge.

So even though some of the scholars who came later knew the things which some of the Sahaba didn’t know, however none of the people who came after Sahaba have the depth of knowledge that the Sahaba had, because even though a Sahabi may know only two hundred hadeeth or three hundred hadeeth, but he was there when those ahadeeth were spoken by Prophet Muhammad(saw), He knew the circumstances, He knew why Prophet(saw) said it, He was there, he experienced it first hand, therefore everyone who came after Sahaba is just scratching the surface of knowledge, whereas Sahaba lived that hadeeth, an opportunity that none of the people who came after has, so sahaba had an edge over everyone who came later. This is the reason Abdullah Ibn Masood(ra) advised people to follow the understanding of Sahaba in comparison to those who came after.

4. Imam Ahmed said: "Do not copy your Deen from anyone of these, but whatever comes from the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) and his Companions, take it; next are their Successors, where a man has a choice."[ Fulaani (p. 113) & Ibn al-Qayyim in I'laam (2/302)] (Taken from Al-Albani's book prayer of prophet(saws)).

5. Abdur-Rahmaan al-Awzaa’ee 157 AH (May Allah have mercy on him) said:
اصبر نفسك على السنة و قف حيث وقف القوم و قل بما قالوا
و كف عما كفوا عنه, واسلك سبيل سلفك الصالح. فانه يسعك ما وسعهم
“Have patience upon the Sunnah, and stop where the people stopped (the Companions may Allah be pleased with them all) and speak with what they spoke with and hold back from what they held back and travel upon the path of the Salafu’s-Salih, for verily, what sufficed them will suffice you.” [Suyuti, al-Amr bi’l-’Ittibaa wa’n-Nahi ani’l-Ibtidaa].

Similarly, Imaam al-Awzaa’ee – rahimahullaah – said,
“Knowledge is what comes from the Companions of Muhammad (sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam) and that which does not come from a single one of them is not knowledge.” [Jaami Bayaan al-Ilm (2/36)]

6. Ibn Taymiyya said: "Their creed is the religion of Islam which was sent to the world by Allah through the Prophet (Peace be upon him). But the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said, 'My Ummah will get divided into 73 sects and each one will go to Hell save one and that one is the Jama'at.' Also in one Hadith he said, 'They are those people who will follow this path which I and my Sahaba follow today.' Therefore they have caught hold of Islam unalloyed from every adulteration and these are the people of Ahl as-Sunnah Wa'l Jama'ah. This group includes the truthful, the martyrs and the virtuous; it includes the minarets of guidance, lamps in the darkness and owners of such superiorities and virtues who have been already mentioned. It includes the saints and also those Imams on whose guidance Muslims are unanimous. It is this successful group about which the Prophet (Peace be upon him) has said: 'One group from my Ummah will always remain dominant with truth; the opponents will never be able to harm its members or afflict them up to the Doomsday.'[Aqeedat-il-Wasitiyyah (pg. 154)]

7. Ibn Katheer said:
فأهل الأديان قبلنا اختلفوا فيما بينهم على آراء وملل باطلة ، وكل فرقة منهم تزعم أنهم على شيء ، [ ص: 317 ] وهذه الأمة أيضا اختلفوا فيما بينهم على نحل كلها ضلالة إلا واحدة ، وهم أهل السنة والجماعة ، المتمسكون بكتاب الله وسنة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، وبما كان عليه الصدر الأول من الصحابة والتابعين ، وأئمة المسلمين في قديم الدهر وحديثه ،
The followers of the religions before us had differences of opinions and split into false sects, each group claiming to be following the truth. This Ummah too has split into sects, all of which are misguided apart from one, which is Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jama`ah, those who adhere to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah and what was followed by the first generations, the Companions, their followers, and the Imams of the Muslims of earlier and later times. [Tafsir Ibn Katheer under 30:32]

8. Imam Rabbani Mujaddid Alf Thanni (Radi Allahu anhu)(971AH-1034AH) states in his famous book Maktubaat " The way of Salvation is followance of the Ahl as-Sunnah Wal Jama'ah. May Almighty Allah bestow blessings upon the Ahl as-Sunnah Wal Jama'ah, in their speech, in their actions, laws, for this is the successful group. Besides this, all other groups have become victims of deception. Today, nobody realizes how much these misled groups will be punished, however, on the Day of Judgment this secret will become apparent. Even though at that time this knowledge will be of no benefit to the misled."

"It is compulsory for the wise people to amend their beliefs to be in accordance with the beliefs of the Ahl as-Sunnah Wa Jama'ah because this is the only group which will be saved from the fire of Hell." None of the Sahaba, the Salaf-e-Saliheen or the pious scholars of Islam followed the new ideas or beliefs. They strictly abstained from the groups who followed these deviated ideas and beliefs. Their beliefs and actions opposed these new ideas and beliefs. All the great scholars of Hadith and the great scholars of Fiqh of the four Schools of thought and their followers, all held the belief of the Ahl as-Sunnah Jama'ah. In addition, all the great pious Muslims and the Sufi Saints of the past and present, followed the way of the Ahl as-Sunnat Wal Jama'ah. Their great literary works stand witness to this fact." Also the believes of Ahl as sunnah are present on this website.

9. As-Suyuti in Sawn al Mantaq wal-Kalam, p.32] By clinging to their way, holding on to their beliefs and understanding them as they did, worshipping Allah in His Oneness, upon the Authentic Sunnah of the Messenger in the manner of the Companions one is guaranteed success in this life and security from the Fire in the next life. When questioned by his companions about those who will be saved from the Fire, the Messenger replied, "They are those who are upon what I and my companions are upon." [Reported by Tirmidhi from Amr ibn al-'As - Hadith Hasan] All the great scholars from the earliest to the later times have advised clinging to the way and methodology (manhaj) of the Salaf and adherence to it as it is the only means of deliverance.

[ZulFiqar]

@zulfiqar can you provide me with any Quranic ayat or a hadith which mentions there will be any messiahs other than Isa AS & the mahdi?

The Dajjal is called "al-Masih" (Messiah)

Sayyidina Isa عليه السلام is called Messiah in the Holy Qur'an. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said that sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه and sayyidina Abu Dharr al Ghifari رضى الله عنه are resemblance of Jesus.

From a linguistic angle, Masih is anyone who travels on the Earth a lot, or whose eye is "Mamsooh" (as in case of Dajjal) or who is annointed on the head with oil to become King (Mashiach in Hebrew), and many other meanings.

Likewise, al-Mahdi is a title which means "the guided one". The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم referred to Jesus as "Mahdi" and he referred to his rightly-guided successors (Abi Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, al-Hassan رضى الله عنهم) as "Mahdiyeen"

[ZulFiqar]

The challenge was for you to prove the impossibility of Ashab Al-Kahfi to live beyond a normal period of time without any sustenance. You see. None of your 5 points addresssing the issue raised. Instead, you interpreted the event with some unrelated arguments indeed.

The burden of proof is on you not me to prove that the AsHab al-Kahf lived beyond a normal period of time without sustenance. The principle is that whoever makes a claim of something extraordinary or supernatural must prove their claim. The one who denies something extraordinary or supernatural is not asked to prove his denial. So please present a single verse of the Holy Quran that the AsHab al Kahf, in their individual capacities, survived without food for 3 centuries.

Some notes for you before you reply anything:

1. Those guys were a group of youths. This is proven from the word "fityatun" as addressed by Allah. Hence, it doesn't fit "the entire society" as you previously suggested.

Not necessarily, they were a society of youths. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم likewise described the Khawarij as a nation of young people: قَوْمٌ أَحْدَاثُ الأَسْنَانِ (Sahih Muslim)

2. Looking at verse 17, it was clearly stated that the rising and setting of the sun observable from the cave. And yet, in verse 19, they were questioning among themselves how long they were in the cave with their guessing were a day or half. If they were not sleeping and been living in the cave for 300 years, this conversation of theirs must have not been arisen.

In the Qur'an time is described in a different way to point to the multidimensional aspect of time. The same Qur'an says that on Judgment Day the disbelievers will say they tarried in this Dunya for ten days, while the more intelligent and perceptible among them will say a single day. (Sura 20:103-104)

[ZulFiqar]

You are comparing apples with oranges. We mock Shia belief of GHaybah, because they can't prove their birth of their 12th Imam. All they have are dubious reports which raise questions about the birth of their Imam itself. Secondly, we mock them saying that when Isa(as) couldn't be a guide to his after his departure, then how could their Imam be a guide after his departure.

So the only basis for you mocking the Ghayba is because the Shia can't conclusively prove the birth of the 12th Imam? So if they could believe the 12th Imam was born, and said that he wasn't guiding people during the Ghayba, you would believe in it? There were many other sects who believed in the Ghayba of someone who was a historical person. The Kaysaniya who believed in the Ghayba of Muhammad al Hanafiya on Mt. Radwa, those who believed in the Ghayba of Abd Allah b. Mu'awiya on a mountain somewhere in Isfahan, those who believed in the Ghayba of Imam Nafs al Zakiyya on Mt. Hajir in the Najd, etc. Will you accept those beliefs in the Ghayba because their adherents can prove the birth of their respective Imams who went into occultation?

So I'm not comparing apples and oranges. Just as the Shi'a cannot prove the Ghayba of their Imam, likewise, the mainstream Sunnis cannot prove that sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام ascended into Heaven with his Jasad and has been living there in his Jasad for the past 2 millennia.

The question was about exact Father of Isa(As).

يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ
Coming from between the back and the ribs.(86:7).

Or do you believe that, the biological father of Isa(as) is Adam(as). And he should be called Isa ibn Adam? Like Muhammad(saws) was called Muhammad ibn Abdullah because his biological father was Abdullah.

We are all sons of Adam. Any man can be called "Ibn Adam". Ibn (son) is just the single form of Abnaa, and we are all called Bani Adam in the Holy Qur'an. Jesus is therefore Ibn Adam. It is not necessary that when you say "Ibn Fulan" it means that Fulan is the father married to his mother. We say Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, but Hanbal was his grandfather not father, and we say Ibn Taymiyya, but his father's name was Abdal Halim not Taymiyya. So when you say Ibn Fulan, Fulan can be the ancestor no matter how far removed in generations.

As for the evidence that Isa(as) would return in a physical body then, the Marfoo hadeeth from Prophet(saws) describes that when Isa(As) would descend,

The fact that sayyidina Isa(as) will come with a physical body is neither a proof that he was raised up in his physical body, nor is it a proof that at present he has been living in the sky in his Jasad for the past 2 millennia. When someone is sleeping his soul is taken up to Allah (not his body), and when he awakens he awakens in his body here on Earth. The Jasad is never taken up to the Heavens as I proved from Sura 39:42

So since it is proven that Isa(As) would descend in the form of physical body, wearing clothes, water dropping from his hairs, taking support by placing hands on wings of angels, then its common sense to believe that He was raised to heaven alive(which is supported by Mawqoof Sahih reports). This even backs all those ambiguous evidences which mentions about ascend of Isa(as) used by Sunnis. This shows the strongness of the Aqeedah of Ahlusunnah.

You have to prove that the descent of sayyidina Eisa(AS) in a physical body is proof that he was raised alive to Heaven in his physical body, and remains there as we speak in his physical body. Your aqida is based on speculation and Qiyas. Also, is there any authentic Marfoo Hadith which says sayyidina Eisa(AS) will descend from the sky? I assure you there is no such Hadith in the Sihhah as Sita, Hadith only says he will descend, it never says he will descend from Heaven.

For Sunnis it is hujjah. Hence we believe in it. Your objection is over ruled.

Where is it written in the books of the principles of Ahlus Sunnati wal Jama'ah that the saying of a single Sahabi constitutes a Hujjah in the Religion?

Anyways I would like to repeat for the benefit of readers that, these side details of physical descriptions of Prophets, doesn't make any difference, since they aren't a matter of Aqeedah, but what matters the Aqeedah is his descend. And I will present a hadeeth now, we find that in his descend Isa(as) is described as Reddish, this is the same complexion mentioned when Prophet Muhammad(saws) met Isa(as) in heavens. SO THE ONE WHO PROPHET(SAWS) MET IN HEAVEN IS THE SAME PERSON WHO WILL DESCEND.

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم met many other Prophets in Heaven, are all of them alive there in their physical bodies too?

[ZulFiqar]

Beliefs of Sahaba are Hujjah for Ahlus-sunnah, except when they are countered by the beliefs taught by Prophet(saws) or Jumhoor Sahaba. As I promised, I'll list out some evidences.

Evidence from Quran to follow Sahaba:

And whoever acts hostilely to the Messenger after that guidance has become manifest to him, and follows other than the way of the believers(Sahaba), We will turn him to that to which he has (himself) turned and make him enter hell; and it is an evil resort.(4:115)

And when it is said to them: Believe as the people(sahaba) believe they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.(2:13)

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement.(9:100).

 And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists. : Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. If then they believe as you(Sahaba) believe in Him, they are indeed on the right course, and if they turn back, then they are only in great opposition, so Allah will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.(2:135-137).

Evidence from Hadeeth:

The Prophet Muhammed (May the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) also said: “Indeed the people of the Book before you split into seventy-two sects. And this nation will split into seventy-three sects, seventy-two are in the Fire and one in Paradise”. And in another narration, “All are in the Fire except one.” It was asked: Who is that one? He replied, “That which I and my Companions are upon” Related by at-Tirmidhi (5/62) and al-Haakim (1/128). It has been authenticated by al-Haafidh al-Iraaqee in Takhreejul-Ihyaa (3/199) and Sheikh Albani authenticated it in Saheeh at-Tirmizi 2641. He said it’s hasan(good).
 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Evidence from the sayings of Salaf:

1. Ibn Abbas said to Khawarij in his debate.
أتيتكم من عند صحابة النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم من المهاجرين والأنصار ، لأبلغكم ما يقولون المخبرون بما يقولون فعليهم نزل القرآن ، وهم أعلم بالوحي منكم ،
I came to you from Muhajireen and Ansar, the companions of the Prophet peace be upon him to convey their message to you. They are the people who know what they say (from Quran and sunnah), The Qur`an was revealed in front of them and they know about the (meaning of) Wahyy (Quran) more than you. [al Musradrak al Hakim no. 2656, al Hakim said: It is authentic upon the conditions of Muslim, ad-Dahabi agreed with him]

2.

وقد ذكر سنيد قال حدثنا معتمر عن سلام بن مسكين عن قتادة قال قال ابن مسعود: من كان منكم متأسيا فليتأس بأصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فإنهم كانوا أبر هذه الأمة قلوبا، وأعمقها علما، وأقلها تكلفا، وأقومها هديا، وأحسنها حالا، آختارهم الله لصحبة نبيه صلى الله عليه وسلم وإقامة دينه، فاعرفوا لهم فضلهم، واتبعوهم في آثارهم، فإنهم كانوا على الهدى المستقيم.

‘Abd-Allah ibn Mas’ood(ra) said: “Whoever wants to follow an example, let him follow the example of those who have passed away, the Companions of Muhammad (S). They were the best of this ummah, the purest in heart, the DEEPEST in knowledge, the least in sophistication. They were people whom Allah chose to be the Companions of His Prophet (S) and to convey His religion, so imitate their ways and behaviour, for they were following the Straight Path.” [Tafseer Al-Qurtabi and Sharh as-Sunnah of Al-Baghawi]

3. Similarly we read:

1143 – وحدثنا ابن عبد الحميد قال : حدثنا يعقوب بن إبراهيم الدورقي قال : حدثنا حكام بن سلم الرازي ، عن عمرو بن أبي قيس ، عن عبد ربه قال : كنا عند الحسن في مجلس ، فذكر كلاما ، وذكر أصحاب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : « أولئك أصحاب محمد كانوا أبر هذه الأمة قلوبا ، وأعمقها علما ، وأقلها تكلفا ، قوم اختارهم الله عز وجل لصحبة نبيه ، وإقامة دينه ، فتشبهوا بأخلاقهم وطرائقهم ، فإنهم كانوا ورب الكعبة على الهدي المستقيم »
Al-Hasan Al-Basri said: Those are the companions of Mohammad, best in the heart, DEEPEST in knowledge, without going out of their way. They were chosen by Allah to accompany his prophet, to stabilize the religion, so follow their manners and ways, for by Allah they were on the straight path.( Al-Sharee’a by Al-Ajurri 1143)

All of the evidences you have quoted establish the necessity of following the Sahaba رضى الله عنهم as a collective. This is also from where we derive the concept of Ijma. But you haven't presented a single evidence from Qur'an and Sunnah which states that the saying of a Sahabi is a Hujjah in the Religion.

But since you insist that the saying of a Sahabi is a Hujjah in the Religion, then I will present to you the views of some of the Sahaba رضى الله عنهم that sayyidina Isa عليه السلام was not raised alive into Heaven in his Jasad:

When the Companion Jarud رضى الله عنه was dispatched to Bahrain to debate with the apostate tribes (Abd al Qais in particular). The reason they had become apostate was because they were bewildered as to how the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم had died if he was a true Prophet. So they abandoned Islam. Thus Jarud رضى الله عنه put forward to them the examples of sayyidina Musa and sayyidina Eisa عليهم السلام. The apostates bore witness that both of them were Messengers of Allah. Then Jarud said:
وأنا أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدا عبده ورسوله . عاش كما عاشوا ، ومات كما ماتوا
"And I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger. He lived as they all lived and he died as they all died."[/size]


[/size][/font]


Likewise, we have the statement of sayyidina Hassan al-Mujtaba رضى الله عنه when he gave a sermon at the time of the martyrdom of his honorable father sayyidina Amir ul Mumineen Ali رضى الله عنه. He said:

ولقد قبض في الليلة التي عرج فيها بروح عيسى بن مريم ليلة سبع وعشرين من رمضان
"And he (Ali^RA) was taken (martyred) in the Night in which the Ruh of Jesus son of Mary ascended, the twenty-seventh of Ramadan."






The statement of sayyidina Hasan رضى الله عنه proves that he believed that sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام did not ascend into Heaven with his Jasad, but only with his Ruh.

And we have the statement of sayyidina Umar b. al-Khattab رضى الله عنه at the time when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم died.

عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ ، قَالَ : " تُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَوْمَ الِاثْنَيْنِ ، فَحُبِسَ بَقِيَّةَ يَوْمِهِ وَلَيْلَتَهُ وَالْغَدَ حَتَّى دُفِنَ لَيْلَةَ الْأَرْبِعَاءِ ، وَقَالُوا : إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لَمْ يَمُتْ ، وَلَكِنْ عُرِجَ بِرُوحِهِ كَمَا عُرِجَ بِرُوحِ مُوسَى ، فَقَامَ عُمَرُ ، فَقَالَ : إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لَمْ يَمُتْ ، وَلَكِنْ عُرِجَ بِرُوحِهِ كَمَا عُرِجَ بِرُوحِ مُوسَى ، وَاللَّهِ لَا يَمُوتُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ حَتَّى يَقْطَعَ أَيْدِيَ أَقْوَامٍ وَأَلْسِنَتَهُمْ
Ikrima narrates that Rasul Allah(SAW) died on Monday but was buried on Wednesday. People were saying: "Verily Rasul Allah(SAW) did not die, but his Ruh ascended like the ascension of the Ruh of Musa(AS)." So Umar(RA) stood up and said: "Verily, Rasul Allah(SAW) did not die, but his Ruh ascended like the ascension of the Ruh of Musa(AS). By Allah! Rasul Allah(SAW) will not die until he cuts the hands and tongues of nations." (Darimi Sharif)

This Hadith proves that not only Umar, but some other unnamed companions were saying the same thing. Now why did sayyidina Umar give the example of Musa instead of Eisa. If he believed that Eisa(AS) was alive and not deceased, he would have given that more obvious precedent, rather than mentioning Musa(AS) because everyone is agreed that Musa(AS) died. But the fact that sayyidina Umar(RA) did not give the example of sayyidina Eisa(AS) to prove that likewise the Prophet(SAW) has not died shows that even Umar(RA) knew and believed firmly that sayyidina Eisa(AS) died.

Now according to you the statements of these Sahaba are a Hujjah in the Religion

[ZulFiqar]

Now I will present some additional arguments that sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام was not raised up into Heaven in his Jasad:

1. The book Aqidat at Tahawiyya composed by Abu Ja'far al-Tahawi al-Hanafi رحمة الله عليه, considered the most agreed upon exposition of the creed of Ahlus Sunnati wal Jama'ah, does not mention as any one of its points of creed the ascension of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام into Heaven in his Jasad.

2. The Imam Ibnul Qayyim al-Jawziyya رحمة الله عليه said:

وأما ما يذكر عن المسيح أنه رفع إلى السماء وله ثلاث وثلاثون سنة فهذا لا يعرف له أثر متصل يجب المصير إليه

Translation: “As for what is mentioned regarding the Messiah that he ascended into Heaven at the age of thirty three years, there is no known report that is sound and connected in this regard to which one could turn to.”

Reference: Zaad-ul-Ma'ad; v.1 p.82

Furthermore, in the same book, Imam Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziya explains that apart from the Prophet (peace be upon him), no other person, including the prophets, has ever ascended into Heaven with both body and soul:

ومن سواه لا ينال بذات روحه الصعود إلى السماء إلا بعد الموت والمفارقة ، فالأنبياء إنما استقرت أرواحهم هناك بعد مفارقة الأبدان

Translation: “No one, apart from him (the Prophet Muhammad – peace be upon him) was taken into Heaven except after death and through separation (of soul from body). As for the Prophets, their souls are stationed there (in Heaven) after the separation from their bodies.”

Reference: Zaad al-Ma'ad; v.3 p.36-37




http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2015/09/imam-ibn-qayyim-al-jawziya-no-proof.html

3. The Sufi saint Ali b. Uthman al-Hujweri wrote in his book Kashf al-Mahjub that on the night of Mi'raj, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم met the spirits (not bodies) of Adam, Yusuf, Musa, Harun, Ibrahim and Eisa عليهم السلام

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2015/09/sufi-ali-hujweri-prophet-as-met-only.html

I highly encourage all the readers to go through this section of my blog which has dozens of proofs that sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام was not raised into Heaven with his Jasad:

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/death-of-jesus.html

[Abu Muhammad]

The burden of proof is on you not me to prove that the AsHab al-Kahf lived beyond a normal period of time without sustenance. The principle is that whoever makes a claim of something extraordinary or supernatural must prove their claim. The one who denies something extraordinary or supernatural is not asked to prove his denial. So please present a single verse of the Holy Quran that the AsHab al Kahf, in their individual capacities, survived without food for 3 centuries.

Oh, in this particular instances, you want us to only rely on Quran and nothing else. But other instance, you support your claim for the usage of word "fityatun" by using Sahih Muslim. Good! You forget that Quran, being the very words of Allah itself, is very sensitive to the choice of words used. Not so much for hadith though.

Nothing impossible for something supernatural or extraordinary to happen. It just goes against hukm 'Aadi and not against hukm 'Aqli. i.e. what happened here is something "abnormal" but never "impossible" to happen according to intelect. As an example of extraordinary event is the event of Ibrahim (as) thrown into blazing fire. He was still alive. Extraodinary but yet not impossible.

In fact, the current standard and established story itself has been accepted throughtout Islamic history that those youth were sleeping for 300 years. No other versions besides the standard one that I know of. That by itself has given the standard story a hugh credibility. Unlike yours, it was just some random thoughts.

For you to claim something else from the standard one, you need to bring compelling evidence to support your claim. Throwing questions and random thoughts here and there and raising doubt about the established story is in no way proving your case.

Having said that, I would love to see your own construction of the story. From your previous posts, the story was vaguely expressed by you. Please write one but it shall be based on the facts presented in surat Al-Kahfi starting from verse 9 until verse 26.

In the Qur'an time is described in a different way to point to the multidimensional aspect of time. The same Qur'an says that on Judgment Day the disbelievers will say they tarried in this Dunya for ten days, while the more intelligent and perceptible among them will say a single day. (Sura 20:103-104)

Granted that "yaum" could also mean "period" but then, how would you explain what kind of "a day or half period" they were talking about?

Please note that if they have been living in the cave for 300 years and according to you, they needed to eat or else they would die, they must have been eating easily tens of thousands of meals if not hundreds of thousands. For them to say a day or half is unthinkable unless they were unconcious throughtout those years.

[ZulFiqar]

Oh, in this particular instances, you want us to only rely on Quran and nothing else. But other instance, you support your claim for the usage of word "fityatun" by using Sahih Muslim. Good!

You make it appear as though I am denying Ahadith. I made singular mention of the Qur'an al-Karim because the story of AsHab al-Kahf is presented there and not in the Ahadith. There are very few if any Ahadith which speaks about the story of AsHab al-Kahf. Nevertheless, if you can present an authentic Marfoo Hadith relating to AsHab al-Kahf I will definitely take it as a proof.

Nothing impossible for something supernatural or extraordinary to happen. It just goes against hukm 'Aadi and not against hukm 'Aqli. i.e. what happened here is something "abnormal" but never "impossible" to happen according to intelect. As an example of extraordinary event is the event of Ibrahim (as) thrown into blazing fire. He was still alive. Extraodinary but yet not impossible.

I do not deny in principle the occurrence of Mu'jizaat and Khawaariq al-Aadaat. But I will only believe in reports of such things if they are backed up by the Qur'an, Sunnah or are Mushaahidah. Your belief that sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام was raised up into Heaven in his Badan (physical body) and that he is living in the heavens for the past 2 millennia in his Badan or Jasad without food is undoubtedly something that is not only extraordinary and supernatural but impossible in light of the teachings of the Holy Qur'an (Sura 5:75, Sura 21:8 ). Therefore, it is not merely impossible from a rational perspective but more importantly from a Quranic perspective.

Some Jews believe that Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven without dying and that they will never die and live forever. This is not only a supernatural claim that a human being can live forever that is irrational, but is impossible from the Quranic perspective which teaches that no human being is immortal. كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ

The Barelwi Quburiyya sect believe that the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم and other deceased people can hear from beyond the grave and can answer the supplication of those who pray to them and grant them what they supplicate for. This belief is not only an example of a superstition that is rationally impossible but also impossible from a Quranic perspective, in fact it is nothing less than Shirk.

Having said that, I would love to see your own construction of the story. From your previous posts, the story was vaguely expressed by you. Please write one but it shall be based on the facts presented in surat Al-Kahfi starting from verse 9 until verse 26.

I will in sha Allah do so shortly.

[ZulFiqar]

Regarding the issue of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام not eating food for the past 2 millennia while being in Heaven with his Jasad:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ إِلَّا إِنَّهُمْ لَيَأْكُلُونَ الطَّعَامَ وَيَمْشُونَ فِي الْأَسْوَاقِ
And We did not send before you (O Prophet) from the Messengers except that they ate food and walked in the markets (Sura 25:20)

The verb Arsalnaa "We sent" is in the past tense. It means that all of the Mursaleen (Messengers) that came before the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم were people who used to eat food and walk in the markets. This includes Eisa bin Mariam عليهما السلام. He and his mother both used to eat food (Sura 5:75).

Now if it is true that Eisa (AS) is alive in Heaven where he neither eats food nor walks through the market, then he has been excluded from the generality of this Verse. And the very objective of revealing this Verse is to prove to the polytheists and disbelievers that Prophet Muhammad is still a Prophet and Messenger despite the fact that you see him eating food and walking casually inside the market. If Jesus is an exception to this, the polytheists and disbelievers would cite his example, or Allah would not say that all the previous Messengers before Prophet Muhammad used to eat food and walk in the market if Jesus is the obvious exception.

Allah says:

وَمَا جَعَلْنَا لِبَشَرٍ مِّن قَبْلِكَ الْخُلْدَ ۖ أَفَإِن مِّتَّ فَهُمُ الْخَالِدُونَ
And nor did We give any human being before you (O Prophet) al-Khuld [long life]. So if you die will they live forever? (Sura 21:34)

The root for the words Khuld and Khaalid خ - ل - د connotes "mountains, rocks; to remain put for a long time, to be forever, to be eternal, eternity, to grow old without showing physical signs of old age."

The word Khaalid means: "one living or remaining forever or for a long time."

Arabic-English Dictionary of Qur'anic Usage, p.275

Hence why the mountains are called الخوالد because they are established and remain for a long, long time (but they are not forever). Allah says in this Verse that no one before the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was granted an exceedingly long life (al-Khuld) and no one is Khaalidoon.

Noor-us-Sunnah or Abu Muhammad said that despite living in Heaven for the past 2 millennia, Jesus is not aging or showing any signs of growing old. This is exactly the meaning of Khuld and being Khaalid, which Allah has denied as impossible for any human being in the life of this world.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

So the only basis for you mocking the Ghayba is because the Shia can't conclusively prove the birth of the 12th Imam? So if they could believe the 12th Imam was born, and said that he wasn't guiding people during the Ghayba, you would believe in it? There were many other sects who believed in the Ghayba of someone who was a historical person. The Kaysaniya who believed in the Ghayba of Muhammad al Hanafiya on Mt. Radwa, those who believed in the Ghayba of Abd Allah b. Mu'awiya on a mountain somewhere in Isfahan, those who believed in the Ghayba of Imam Nafs al Zakiyya on Mt. Hajir in the Najd, etc. Will you accept those beliefs in the Ghayba because their adherents can prove the birth of their respective Imams who went into occultation?

If that would be the case then I would not mock their belief in Ghaybah, but then we'll scrutinize the sources of their belief. And for Ahlus-sunnah to believe in anything like such, then that should be from authoritative Sunni sources. If they would then we will.

So I'm not comparing apples and oranges. Just as the Shi'a cannot prove the Ghayba of their Imam, likewise, the mainstream Sunnis cannot prove that sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام ascended into Heaven with his Jasad and has been living there in his Jasad for the past 2 millennia.

We have proven this from sources which are Hujjah upon Ahlesunnah. Like Hadeeth of Ibn Abbas(ra) about his ascend and the marfoo hadeeth about his descend which clearly shows that Isa(as) will descend with a physical body, like I explained in previous post.

We are all sons of Adam. Any man can be called "Ibn Adam". Ibn (son) is just the single form of Abnaa, and we are all called Bani Adam in the Holy Qur'an. Jesus is therefore Ibn Adam. It is not necessary that when you say "Ibn Fulan" it means that Fulan is the father married to his mother. We say Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, but Hanbal was his grandfather not father, and we say Ibn Taymiyya, but his father's name was Abdal Halim not Taymiyya. So when you say Ibn Fulan, Fulan can be the ancestor no matter how far removed in generations.

I meant whose "Nutfah", the Nutfah decides who is your biological mother and father. Every person is born from the nutfah of their biological mother and father. Ibn Taymiyyah was born was from the nutfah of his biological mother and father- Abdal Haleem, etc. So I asked the question in this sense.

The fact that sayyidina Isa(as) will come with a physical body is neither a proof that he was raised up in his physical body, nor is it a proof that at present he has been living in the sky in his Jasad for the past 2 millennia. When someone is sleeping his soul is taken up to Allah (not his body), and when he awakens he awakens in his body here on Earth. The Jasad is never taken up to the Heavens as I proved from Sura 39:42

When you have believed that Isa(as) will descend wiith a body, then you are half way done my friend, you just need to use your common sense. Isa(as) could only descend with a body, only if he was raised up by Allah with a body. If his body is on earth, and Isa(as) died as you claim, then his body is in Grave, but we find in Quran that people who are in graves will come out only on the day of Judgement, but since Isa(as) will descend with a body as i proved, this implies that he is not dead nor buried, otherwise this will contradict Quran. The correct and well supported view is tht Isa(a) will was raised up alive.

The day on which they shall come forth from their graves in haste, as if they were hastening on to a goal,Their eyes cast down; disgrace shall overtake them; that is the day which they were threatened with.(70:43-44)

And the trumpet shall be blown, when lo! from their graves they shall hasten on to their Lord.(36:51)

You have to prove that the descent of sayyidina Eisa(AS) in a physical body is proof that he was raised alive to Heaven in his physical body, and remains there as we speak in his physical body. Your aqida is based on speculation and Qiyas.

This Hadeeth is authentic and its mentioning the news about Ghayb, hence Ibn Abbas(ra) must have received this knews from Prophet(saws), but even if we take this hadeeth as Mawqoof, yet this is not Qiyas, so stop deceiving yourself, by thinking our belief is based on Qiyas. Not at all, its purely based on Athaar. In the below Hadeeth you see that, Isa(as) was raised up to heaven through an opening in the roof of the house, well this shows that it was physical body, that it why it was raised from an opening in the roof. Hence a clear evidence for Sunni belief.

 قال ابن أبي حاتم : حدثنا أحمد بن سنان ، حدثنا أبو معاوية ، عن الأعمش ، عن المنهال بن عمرو ، عن سعيد بن جبير ، عن ابن عباس قال : لما أراد الله أن يرفع عيسى إلى السماء ، خرج على أصحابه – وفي البيت اثنا عشر رجلا من الحواريين – يعني : فخرج عليهم من عين في البيت ، ورأسه يقطر ماء ، فقال : إن منكم من يكفر بي اثنتي عشرة مرة ، بعد أن آمن بي . ثم قال : أيكم يلقى عليه شبهي ، فيقتل مكاني ويكون معي في درجتي ؟ فقام شاب من أحدثهم سنا ، فقال له : اجلس . ثم أعاد عليهم فقام ذلك الشاب ، فقال : اجلس . ثم أعاد عليهم فقام الشاب فقال : أنا . فقال : أنت هو ذاك . فألقي عليه شبه عيسى ورفع عيسى من روزنة في البيت إلى السماء . قال : وجاء الطلب من اليهود فأخذوا الشبه فقتلوه ، ثم صلبوه وكفر به بعضهم اثنتي عشرة مرة ، بعد أن آمن به ، وافترقوا ثلاث فرق ، فقالت طائفة : كان الله فينا ما شاء ثم صعد إلى السماء . وهؤلاء اليعقوبية ، وقالت فرقة : كان فينا ابن الله ما شاء ، ثم رفعه الله إليه . وهؤلاء النسطورية ، وقالت فرقة : كان فينا عبد الله ورسوله ما شاء ، ثم رفعه الله إليه . وهؤلاء المسلمون ، فتظاهرت الكافرتان على المسلمة ، فقتلوها ، فلم يزل الإسلام طامسا حتى بعث الله محمدا صلى الله عليه وسلم .
وهذا إسناد صحيح إلى ابن عباس

Ibn Abbas said, “When Allaah decided to raise `Isa to Heaven, `Isa went to his companions – and in the house there were twelve men from his disciples – while drops of water were dripping from his head. `Isa said to them, “Some of you will disbelieve in me twelve times after having believed in me.” He then asked, “Who among you volunteers that he be made to resemble me and be killed instead of me; he will be with me in my place (in Paradise).” One of the youngest men present volunteered, but `Isa commanded him to sit down. `Isa repeated his statement and the young man again stood up and volunteered, and `Isa again told him to sit down. `Isa repeated the same statement and the young man volunteered. This time, `Isa said, “Then it will be you.” The appearance of `Isa was cast upon that young man, while `Isa, peace be on him, was raised to heaven through an opening in the roof of the house. The Jews came looking for `Isa and arrested the one that appeared as him, killing him by crucifixion. Some of them disbelieved in `Isa twelve times, after they had believed in him. They divided into three groups. One group said, “God was among us and then ascended to heaven”. These are the Jacobites. One group said, “The son of God was among us and then God raised him to Himself”. These are the Nestorians. One group said, “A servant of god and His messenger was among us and then God raised him to Himself”. These are the Muslims. Then the two unbelieving sects prevailed against the Muslims and killed them. Islam remained eradicated until God sent Muhammad, may Allaah’s blessing and peace be upon him.
 
Imam Ibn Katheer adds: And this chain of narration is authentic (Saheeh) from Ibn Abbas.
 
(This narration can also be read in al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah (vol 2, page 85) of Imam Ibn Katheer, as well as in Fath al-Qadeer (vol 1, pg 800) of Imam ash-Shawkani.)

 

Also, is there any authentic Marfoo Hadith which says sayyidina Eisa(AS) will descend from the sky? I assure you there is no such Hadith in the Sihhah as Sita, Hadith only says he will descend, it never says he will descend from Heaven.

Any Muslim who is blessed with wisdom knows the fact that, Angels descend from heaven. And per Marfoo ahadeeth, Isa(As) will descend keeping hands on the wings of Angels.

The Day the heaven shall be rent asunder with clouds, and angels shall be sent down, descending (in ranks),- (Surah Al-Furqan, 25)

Where is it written in the books of the principles of Ahlus Sunnati wal Jama'ah that the saying of a single Sahabi constitutes a Hujjah in the Religion?

I have proven my claim from verses of Quran, ahadeeth and Salaf. And like i said in one of my post, I would have preferred a weak hadeeth over the speculative beliefs of some nobody. BUt Alhamdulillah here we have authentic ahadeeth. Btw, the hadeeth of Ibn Abbas(ra) actually ends the ambiguity in the verse of Quran about Isa(as) being raised up. So this is a supplementary proof for the verse of Quran. Our belief gets proven from Quran itself. Masha Allah.

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم met many other Prophets in Heaven, are all of them alive there in their physical bodies too?

No, they are not, that is why we don't have any reports of them being raised alive nor of their descend with physical body.