Challenged Issued to Shiachatters

[Farid]

The Mod Mohammed Ali responded:

His proposed topic implies that we must demonstrate the imamah of every single one of the 12 individuals [a] from sunni texts. This claim is not really made by the shi'a. So why is he even suggesting this topic?

If this claim is not made by Shias, then why are Shiachat members stepping up to debate? Why are they looking for mods to nominate someone?

Brother Haydar Husayn also said:

Only a fool would think that the corpus of Sunni ahadith somehow lead to Shia beliefs

I agree with him.

[Furkan]

Who is that brother abul hussain hassani?

Is he a member of TS?

[MuslimK]

Who is that brother abul hussain hassani?

Is he a member of TS?

He is but with a different nick. Very good brother, masha'Allah.

[Furkan]

Hm okay.

What's hani's opinion on this debate? ^^

[Hani]

Salam,

I endorse my Shaykh Faridov to represent Ahlul-Sunnah in a debate on Imamah.

Some things on that very long SC thread caught my attention, such as their mod saying this:

((Secondly, nothing is going to get resolved in any such debate, and so nothing good can come out of it. A 1400 year debate isn't going to get resolved in a couple of weeks over the internet, and no Sunni reading the debate here is going to get persuaded by any arguments you could bring. There is more danger that some Shias who have been brought up/converted on the 'Then I was guided' arguments will start to have doubts, than any Sunnis being convinced by any arguments from the Shia side. This is one of the reasons they want these debates.
 
Aside from that, you are also quite prone to doubts, so I'm not sure it would be a good idea to get involved in debates, at this point anyway.))

What does this show? Weakness of position? Weakness of beliefs? Why don't you strike us with your strongest `Aqli-n-Naqli arguments and cause us to doubt?

A mod says:

((I personally won't endorse anyone. It's not my business, what kind of request is this? ))

What do you mean "What kind of request is this?" This is a polite request for you to step up and have an intelligent debate and represent your sect's official stance on Ghadeer, Thaqalayn, Manzailah, Tayr and whatever else you think is solid evidence for `Ali's divine leadership.

Which is followed by:

((I am going to request that we close this forum during the Holy Month of Shahr Ramadan Kareem))

I see where this is going, so you're dragging this out until Ramadan to use it as an excuse to escape. Believe it or not, this is not the first time I've seen Shia use Ramadan as an exit.

A Shia struggling for the light says:

((I believe Sunnism is largely based on opposition to the merits of Ahlulbayt and their exalted status.))

This is refuted by the fact that we narrated many chains for many of `Ali's major merits. Is this how you're going to start the debate? If this is the quality of the arguments you'll be presenting then you'll fail I assure you.

He says:

((...Say: No wage do I ask for it except for the love of (my) near kin...42:23.
 
That verse is a sufficient proof of the Wilayah of the family of Mohammad but it takes a submitting and wakeful heart to accept the verse.
 
Would love to see how Farid would twist and turn to avoid it's clear meaning.))

We can prove that it doesn't mean what you think, we can also prove that your interpretation of it is ridiculous. I mean how silly of a faith this is (as pre your interpretation), when our Prophet (saw) addressed the Kouffar but didn't ask them to worship Allah, or believe in his oneness, or have good morals and treat others well, BUT (according to you) his only request was for the Kouffar to love his family.

So four pages and not ONE Shia has been endorsed by two people to begin the debate.

[Furkan]

Nice reply.

Love you Hani hahaha

[Mythbuster1]

Once again brothers the Shia FAIL again miserably this is the reality since 1400 years ago

They have no solid proof of their sect , they have no root or foundation for Imamate.......it's simple FACT!!!!

And for them to NOT take up the debate shows to us..... The less knowledgable how far deviated they are if they cannot put the Quran first and debate......even qadiyanis carry on like they do without evidences from the Quran Al Kareem

So......imho sc has no knowledgable debator infact they have internet scholars who propbably sell ice creams through the day and act their egos out online afterwards behind a screen (ameen)

Even one lil pseudo Shia scholar (struggling for light) won't believe the Quran is gods word (the words are created??)

Personally I think the guy needs a straight jacket lol

Astaghfirullah just cos abu Lahabs  name is in it??

Subhanallah when you confront them and explain through Quran .....in my experience .......they turn against the kalaam e ilahi astaghfirullah.......one Shiite said the Quran is useless (then tried to wiggle his way out) (ameen).....second Shiite said to me he doesn't believe in the book that praises sahaba RA (again he came back and tried explaining his answer, lol)........then you get the likes of struggling for light lol making his own interpretation on verses and believing Quran is created.....LOL

Well I have had a good laugh lads......thanx farid 👍👍

[Furkan]

There was this guy called Mujtaba and Mohammed abdel rahman on facebook. They kept refusing to debate here at TS and instead wanted us to join SC and debate them there.

Well, where are they now?

[Hani]

Bro, It's not the fear of "Where" the debate is, rather it's the fear of the debate itself.

[Farid]

After considering the request of the moderator Mohammed Ali, I have decided to reword the debate. The debate will be now entitled:

Proof for the Imamah of the Twelve

Three moderators have posted as well as one admin. The admin seems to think that the Imamah of the Twelve can be proven from Sunni sources. Yet, this has been regarded as impossible by the moderators.

Moderators do not need to name the member that they want to debate. Pressure can be taken off them if a member from Shiachat steps up and asks for an endorsement. It is only then that a mod needs to approve by publicly stating that they endorse the Shi'ee as a qualified debater.

I am hoping for the best. May Allah guide us all to the straight path.


Don't disappoint me Shiachat. You can prove the Imamah of the Twelve, right?

[Link]

EDIT BY FARID:

Brother Link, do not derail my thread. I have PMed you your arguments to Hani so that you do not lose your content. If you want to debate him then do it elsewhere.

[Farid]

Moderator Abu Hadi said:

The Imamate of the Twelve can be proven thru Sunni sources. There are any number of brothers here who could handle this debate decisively. I would debate him myself (although there are other brothers here who are more qualified than me) if he would register on SC as a new member and the debate would be conducted here. I am not interested in using this debate in order to build traffic and hits for his site, as it contains many lies about Shia which I do not want to promote. 

 

The other rule would be that I will stop participating in the debate on First of Shahr Ramadan and will resume on 4th of Shawwal if necessary. 

Looks like Abu Hadi has not paid attention to me saying that the venue will be Shiachat.

Alhamdullah he has accepted to debate me. If he wants we can start as soon as possible. All I require is one more moderator to endorse him.

[Rationalist]

Moderator Abu Hadi said:

The Imamate of the Twelve can be proven thru Sunni sources.

Really ? Let me guess he is going to use the 12 Calipahs ahadith and apply istihsan to tell you who the 12 are. Or he might reference yanabi al mawaddah. Which one is it ?

[Hani]

No man, who cares if a moderator endorses him!? He himself is a moderator, register asap bro!!

[Farid]

Fair enough.

My only condition is that nobody is allowed to post in our debate except for me and Abu Hadi. I will register as soon as Abu Hadi opens a thread.

He said:

The definition of Imamate, for the purposes of this debate, is the role of Leader of the Ummah, in both the religious and secular (Sultanat) sense. The esoteric aspects of Imamate will not be discussed. 

This is fine by me.

Note to Shiachatters: I will not be posting in any other threads except the debate thread.

[sameer]

how knowledgeable this shia is.. here he is trying to prove imamat from his so called "logic".

Arabs would revert back to the tribal system of Jahiliyya in order to make this selection,(and that is exactly what happened with the appointment of Abu Bakr)  which was the only system that they knew besides the brand new Islamic System which was based on appointment by Divine Order.

so please let me know how many of arabs had revert back to tribal system (jahiliya) when abu bakar was appointed ? how many of Sahaba including Hazrat Ali (RA) had been stood up against this illegal/unislamic appointment ?

So it makes perfect sense to me that given this situation, Allah(s.w.a) would appoint a Leader to replace Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) upon his death and this leader would be the most qualified to lead the Ummah based on the Absolute and Complete knowledge of Allah(s.w.a). That person was Imam Ali(a.s).

it doest not matter wht makes sense to you.. wht makes sense to ummah, it only matter..
first question arises, how shia knows this person was imam Ali , Abu Bakar was very mch closer to Prophet more than any body else, why not he.. was not he knowledgeable or not capable of this job? nd how it is possible if Allah is mentioning the king's name in the holy Quran but not imam's name who is gonna be replacing Prophet?

[Farid]

Good points brother Sameer.


Please follow the debate here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030534-debate-on-imamah-on-shiachat/

[Link]

It's funny how I predicted exactly what argument you would come up with. This (for sake of argument) proves Wilayah of Ali but what about the rest of the 12 Imams? Khair, I was ready and prepared for such a response.  I don't know how prepared Abu Hadi is about this, this is because when I came back to Islam, I started to question, how can you prove which Ahlulbayt to follow, or which Imams and not resort to circular reasoning. I've come up with reasoning towards this.

But I'll see what Abu Hadi says. I don't know why no one supported me debating when I showed confidence in exactly what you would say and promised I had a good response.

[omar111]

Same old c&p by shia,Next he will paste the 12 khalifs hadith.Shia religion revolves around three Sunni ahadith as shier don’t have a sahi version of these.Hadith e ghadir,hadith thaqalyn and hadith e kissa.One interesting fact is that there is no twelver in shia narrators of Sunni hadith.

[Khaled]

... this is because when I came back to Islam, I started to question, how can you prove which Ahlulbayt to follow, or which Imams and not resort to circular reasoning. I've come up with reasoning towards this.

Why don't you just post it then?