TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Farid on June 03, 2015, 09:11:33 PM
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http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030534-debate-on-imamah-on-shiachat/
Discuss.
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Prediction: The debate will go on a while until it becomes clear the Shi'i debater can't win, so the moderator will close the thread because "its a useless debate."
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Hahah, I hope that isn't the case brother Khaled.
I appreciate brother Tawheed313's post. Truly, it is importantly for someone knowledgeable to represent the Shia side. I am not looking forward to debate a weak opponent.
May Allah guide us all.
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I think that StrugglingForTheLight doesn't really represent mainstream shi'a views; although I suppose those issues don't have much to do with proving Imamh.
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Farid never yields. When he got cornered once and by a Quranic verse, his response was "Well even Quranic verses have isnad." Then he is devoid of honesty. I believe that if he is shown even the Loh-e-mehfuz he will not change his ways. Being a Rijalist he will ask for the isnad of it. So it will be boring and pointless debating him.
Shots fired...
I love how being a "Rijalist" is a bad thing on that site. If you read the posts from 10 years ago that wasn't the case, but they change their tune after losing a certain debate and realize they literally have nothing when it comes to Ilm ar-Rijaal.
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I wont recommend farid to debate with struggling because of his extremely irrelevant arguments entirely based on qiyas which hardly anyone can understand. He will keep running around circles & drive you crazy, besides he has no idea of sunni sources & their reliability.
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Looks like moderator Haydar Husayn is against the idea of having a debate because debates haven't solved the Sunni-Shia divide. That is one of the reasons he mentions anyways...
Looks like some of them are trying to change the topic to a debate on attributes. If I wanted that, I would have challenged an Ash'ari perhaps.
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Let's not insult them from our side. Let's wait until a shia rijali shows up :)
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Let's not insult them from our side. Let's wait until a shia rijali shows up :)
Rijalis don't really follow traditional Shi'i Hadith Sciences. I remember when I was a Rafidi me and a bunch of other Buddies used to hate Internet rijalis. The Shi'ah Hadith science is to only look at the Chain if it's Fiqh because otherwise all the Ahadith about Karbala would be Dha'if
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We also used to hate ShiaChat. To us it was like the Tumblr of Shi'ism. We used to nickname it "BatriChat", I honestly doubt you'd find many people there who actually know what they're talking about.
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^ Regardless of the level of knowledge of the average Shiachatter. I have high hopes that there will be benefit from a dialogue like this one, to at least a few readers.
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Here are a couple of answers to questions I've seen brought up on SC.
Q: Why Sunni sources?
A: To shatter the illusion that the Imamah of the Twelve can be proven through Sunni sources. It simply cannot be proven.
Q: Allah will judge others who have not accepted Islam for sticking to their own sources. Can’t any non-Muslim say this?
A: A Christian will not be able to use a corrupted Bible in his defence on the Day of Judgement. No such effort has been put to preserving the words of a prophet as the Sunni hadith system, and whoever believes otherwise is delusional.
Q: Why not debate on another matter?
A: I don't mind debating on other issues. However, the debate has been issued over this specific one right now. If the mods do not endorse anyone to debate this issue, it should be well known that the mods do not believe that Shias can prove this point.
Q: How about debating the attributes of Allah?
A: That debate is not exclusive to Sunnis and Shias, and Sunnis disagree amongst themselves on how the attributes should be understood. If I was to be convinced by the Shia debater, I would still become an Ash'ari Sunni.
Q: Why not come to Shiachat, make a thread, and debate whomever you want?
A: Last time I debated Wasil, he started doing so bad that Shias called it a set-up, and started saying that the debate was rigged. I am not making that mistake again. Two moderators will have to endorse the debate. I am not wasting my time debating "fake Shias". Once again, I am hoping for a good opponent that provides strong arguments.
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Q: Why not come to Shiachat, make a thread, and debate whomever you want?
A: Last time I debated Wasil, he started doing so bad that Shias called it a set-up, and started saying that the debate was rigged. I am not making that mistake again. Two moderators will have to endorse the debate. I am not wasting my time debating "fake Shias". Once again, I am hoping for a good opponent that provides strong arguments.
Assalamualaikum brother Farid,
is there any link for this debate with this Wasil guys?
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Here you go akhi:
http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843
Warning: It is a very long thread, and wasil's poor akhlaaq will start to irritate you after a while.
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Here you go akhi:
http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843
Warning: It is a very long thread, and wasil's poor akhlaaq will start to irritate you after a while.
syukran, no biggie there. Only Nader earns my respect..
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I agree with some of users there.
Brother Farid, if you really to debate someone there and there is a person willing then make hijrah to their e-shore and get the ball rolling.
That user (Link) has signed up here, but I say debate them on SC.
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The wise brother and Shiachat moderator Mohammed Ali sarcastically said:
I want Farid to debate me on the merits of Muawiyah [la] from shi'a sources. I hope he has the bravery to do this.
This brother gets the idea. He knows that this debate as well as proving the Imamah of the Twelve from Sunni sources are both impossible. That is my exact point. Shias should not be jumping up and down thinking that they can debate an issue that cannot be won.
I firmly state that it is impossible to provide merits for Mu'awiyah from Shia books. Has my faith been shaken? Will I lose some sleep? Of course not. My deen does not revolve around Mu'awiyah having merits upon the tongues of an infallible.
Any Sunni that would attempt to debate such a matter would receive a swift smack to the back of the head, from yours truly.
I expect Shias to do the same. They should say: No, this cannot be proven from Sunni hadiths, however, what we have in our hadith library is a hujjah upon you!
Inshallah soon the other Shias on Shiachat will realize that this is a case and start to accept reality.
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The best that can be done out of this, is shown interpretation of the words of the Prophet (saw) or Allah's (swt) are that are agreed upon to be stated. Different interpretations can be discussed, why one believes in one interpretation over the other, and then the issue of what interpretation is the right one and manifest one, will be left to people to judge.
Even Khatamal Anbiya can be interpreted as other then Mohammad (saw) being the last Prophet in Quran, it doesn't mean the Quran doesn't clearly state that Mohammad (saw) is the last Prophet.
Just because something can be interpreted in different way, doesn't imply there isn't a manifest meaning. And I think the discussion should be on what is the meaning of words of agreed upon words of guidance.
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3 pages gone, you can find lot of excuses, trying their best to derail the thread but fail to nominate a single "knowledgeable imami" for the challenge, i thnk if bro farid mention the name of an "imami" debater to whom he considers the best in "knowledge" , this will at least give them hope nd save the time for us to read their non sense posts..
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MashaAllah @link, can it also be interpreted for khatamul imam i.e 12th ! Plz enlighten a fool like me.
Shukran
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The Mod Mohammed Ali responded:
His proposed topic implies that we must demonstrate the imamah of every single one of the 12 individuals [a] from sunni texts. This claim is not really made by the shi'a. So why is he even suggesting this topic?
If this claim is not made by Shias, then why are Shiachat members stepping up to debate? Why are they looking for mods to nominate someone?
Brother Haydar Husayn also said:
Only a fool would think that the corpus of Sunni ahadith somehow lead to Shia beliefs
I agree with him.
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Who is that brother abul hussain hassani?
Is he a member of TS?
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Who is that brother abul hussain hassani?
Is he a member of TS?
He is but with a different nick. Very good brother, masha'Allah.
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Hm okay.
What's hani's opinion on this debate? ^^
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Salam,
I endorse my Shaykh Faridov to represent Ahlul-Sunnah in a debate on Imamah.
Some things on that very long SC thread caught my attention, such as their mod saying this:
((Secondly, nothing is going to get resolved in any such debate, and so nothing good can come out of it. A 1400 year debate isn't going to get resolved in a couple of weeks over the internet, and no Sunni reading the debate here is going to get persuaded by any arguments you could bring. There is more danger that some Shias who have been brought up/converted on the 'Then I was guided' arguments will start to have doubts, than any Sunnis being convinced by any arguments from the Shia side. This is one of the reasons they want these debates.
Aside from that, you are also quite prone to doubts, so I'm not sure it would be a good idea to get involved in debates, at this point anyway.))
What does this show? Weakness of position? Weakness of beliefs? Why don't you strike us with your strongest `Aqli-n-Naqli arguments and cause us to doubt?
A mod says:
((I personally won't endorse anyone. It's not my business, what kind of request is this? ))
What do you mean "What kind of request is this?" This is a polite request for you to step up and have an intelligent debate and represent your sect's official stance on Ghadeer, Thaqalayn, Manzailah, Tayr and whatever else you think is solid evidence for `Ali's divine leadership.
Which is followed by:
((I am going to request that we close this forum during the Holy Month of Shahr Ramadan Kareem))
I see where this is going, so you're dragging this out until Ramadan to use it as an excuse to escape. Believe it or not, this is not the first time I've seen Shia use Ramadan as an exit.
A Shia struggling for the light says:
((I believe Sunnism is largely based on opposition to the merits of Ahlulbayt and their exalted status.))
This is refuted by the fact that we narrated many chains for many of `Ali's major merits. Is this how you're going to start the debate? If this is the quality of the arguments you'll be presenting then you'll fail I assure you.
He says:
((...Say: No wage do I ask for it except for the love of (my) near kin...42:23.
That verse is a sufficient proof of the Wilayah of the family of Mohammad but it takes a submitting and wakeful heart to accept the verse.
Would love to see how Farid would twist and turn to avoid it's clear meaning.))
We can prove that it doesn't mean what you think, we can also prove that your interpretation of it is ridiculous. I mean how silly of a faith this is (as pre your interpretation), when our Prophet (saw) addressed the Kouffar but didn't ask them to worship Allah, or believe in his oneness, or have good morals and treat others well, BUT (according to you) his only request was for the Kouffar to love his family.
So four pages and not ONE Shia has been endorsed by two people to begin the debate.
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Nice reply.
Love you Hani hahaha
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Once again brothers the Shia FAIL again miserably this is the reality since 1400 years ago
They have no solid proof of their sect , they have no root or foundation for Imamate.......it's simple FACT!!!!
And for them to NOT take up the debate shows to us..... The less knowledgable how far deviated they are if they cannot put the Quran first and debate......even qadiyanis carry on like they do without evidences from the Quran Al Kareem
So......imho sc has no knowledgable debator infact they have internet scholars who propbably sell ice creams through the day and act their egos out online afterwards behind a screen (ameen)
Even one lil pseudo Shia scholar (struggling for light) won't believe the Quran is gods word (the words are created??)
Personally I think the guy needs a straight jacket lol
Astaghfirullah just cos abu Lahabs name is in it?????
Subhanallah when you confront them and explain through Quran .....in my experience .......they turn against the kalaam e ilahi astaghfirullah.......one Shiite said the Quran is useless (then tried to wiggle his way out) (ameen).....second Shiite said to me he doesn't believe in the book that praises sahaba RA (again he came back and tried explaining his answer, lol)........then you get the likes of struggling for light lol making his own interpretation on verses and believing Quran is created.....LOL
Well I have had a good laugh lads......thanx farid 👍👍
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There was this guy called Mujtaba and Mohammed abdel rahman on facebook. They kept refusing to debate here at TS and instead wanted us to join SC and debate them there.
Well, where are they now?
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Bro, It's not the fear of "Where" the debate is, rather it's the fear of the debate itself.
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After considering the request of the moderator Mohammed Ali, I have decided to reword the debate. The debate will be now entitled:
Proof for the Imamah of the Twelve
Three moderators have posted as well as one admin. The admin seems to think that the Imamah of the Twelve can be proven from Sunni sources. Yet, this has been regarded as impossible by the moderators.
Moderators do not need to name the member that they want to debate. Pressure can be taken off them if a member from Shiachat steps up and asks for an endorsement. It is only then that a mod needs to approve by publicly stating that they endorse the Shi'ee as a qualified debater.
I am hoping for the best. May Allah guide us all to the straight path.
Don't disappoint me Shiachat. You can prove the Imamah of the Twelve, right?
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EDIT BY FARID:
Brother Link, do not derail my thread. I have PMed you your arguments to Hani so that you do not lose your content. If you want to debate him then do it elsewhere.
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Moderator Abu Hadi said:
The Imamate of the Twelve can be proven thru Sunni sources. There are any number of brothers here who could handle this debate decisively. I would debate him myself (although there are other brothers here who are more qualified than me) if he would register on SC as a new member and the debate would be conducted here. I am not interested in using this debate in order to build traffic and hits for his site, as it contains many lies about Shia which I do not want to promote.
The other rule would be that I will stop participating in the debate on First of Shahr Ramadan and will resume on 4th of Shawwal if necessary.
Looks like Abu Hadi has not paid attention to me saying that the venue will be Shiachat.
Alhamdullah he has accepted to debate me. If he wants we can start as soon as possible. All I require is one more moderator to endorse him.
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Moderator Abu Hadi said:
The Imamate of the Twelve can be proven thru Sunni sources.
Really ? Let me guess he is going to use the 12 Calipahs ahadith and apply istihsan to tell you who the 12 are. Or he might reference yanabi al mawaddah. Which one is it ?
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No man, who cares if a moderator endorses him!? He himself is a moderator, register asap bro!!
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Fair enough.
My only condition is that nobody is allowed to post in our debate except for me and Abu Hadi. I will register as soon as Abu Hadi opens a thread.
He said:
The definition of Imamate, for the purposes of this debate, is the role of Leader of the Ummah, in both the religious and secular (Sultanat) sense. The esoteric aspects of Imamate will not be discussed.
This is fine by me.
Note to Shiachatters: I will not be posting in any other threads except the debate thread.
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how knowledgeable this shia is.. here he is trying to prove imamat from his so called "logic".
Arabs would revert back to the tribal system of Jahiliyya in order to make this selection,(and that is exactly what happened with the appointment of Abu Bakr) which was the only system that they knew besides the brand new Islamic System which was based on appointment by Divine Order.
so please let me know how many of arabs had revert back to tribal system (jahiliya) when abu bakar was appointed ? how many of Sahaba including Hazrat Ali (RA) had been stood up against this illegal/unislamic appointment ?
So it makes perfect sense to me that given this situation, Allah(s.w.a) would appoint a Leader to replace Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) upon his death and this leader would be the most qualified to lead the Ummah based on the Absolute and Complete knowledge of Allah(s.w.a). That person was Imam Ali(a.s).
it doest not matter wht makes sense to you.. wht makes sense to ummah, it only matter..
first question arises, how shia knows this person was imam Ali , Abu Bakar was very mch closer to Prophet more than any body else, why not he.. was not he knowledgeable or not capable of this job? nd how it is possible if Allah is mentioning the king's name in the holy Quran but not imam's name who is gonna be replacing Prophet?
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Good points brother Sameer.
Please follow the debate here:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030534-debate-on-imamah-on-shiachat/
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It's funny how I predicted exactly what argument you would come up with. This (for sake of argument) proves Wilayah of Ali but what about the rest of the 12 Imams? Khair, I was ready and prepared for such a response. I don't know how prepared Abu Hadi is about this, this is because when I came back to Islam, I started to question, how can you prove which Ahlulbayt to follow, or which Imams and not resort to circular reasoning. I've come up with reasoning towards this.
But I'll see what Abu Hadi says. I don't know why no one supported me debating when I showed confidence in exactly what you would say and promised I had a good response.
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Same old c&p by shia,Next he will paste the 12 khalifs hadith.Shia religion revolves around three Sunni ahadith as shier don’t have a sahi version of these.Hadith e ghadir,hadith thaqalyn and hadith e kissa.One interesting fact is that there is no twelver in shia narrators of Sunni hadith.
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... this is because when I came back to Islam, I started to question, how can you prove which Ahlulbayt to follow, or which Imams and not resort to circular reasoning. I've come up with reasoning towards this.
Why don't you just post it then?
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But I'll see what Abu Hadi says. I don't know why no one supported me debating when I showed confidence in exactly what you would say and promised I had a good response.
Kindly write your response to abu Hadi in a PM so that we can refute both at once.
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For those who didn't notice, abu Hadi started with `Aqli arguments (That are the same repeated weak material that Mufid, Murtada, Helli and Sadr wrote in their books) but was given simple logical answers so he jumped straight away to Mutawatir Hadith.
Remember he listed the strength of his arguments as such: Intellect then Mass transmitted narrations and finally Qur'an.
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... this is because when I came back to Islam, I started to question, how can you prove which Ahlulbayt to follow, or which Imams and not resort to circular reasoning. I've come up with reasoning towards this.
Why don't you just post it then?
I've thought about the issue, and I don't recall but I've explained in one thread (don't recall the thread). The point is you state something and you should be able to defend it. Just stating it to someone who hasn't thought deeply about the issue in a pm, would not be fair for my argument.
If Farid after Ramadan wants to debate me about it, that's ok. Abu Hadi might still have good reasons, I don't know if he does.
But while I was in doubts, I made a thread or posted (can't remember which) about circular reasoning of the following:
"We state we follow these twelve Imams (exact ones) due to our hadiths"
"Yet we follow these hadiths, due it be narrated from twelve Imams or sect/books/narrators that believes in the 12 Imams".
How do we escape this circular reasoning.
I don't know how much Shias have thought about this issue. Also, I stated clearly in that thread: "Twelve Caliphs from Quraysh" hadith is from ONE companion. How can we rely on a hadith from one companion.
So I came up with reasoning that depends on texts and compliments it. We'll see what Abu Hadi states.
I'm not going to interfere in the debate. If Farid wants to debate me after that's up to him.
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It's off topic, but according to Shiaism, Agha Link is supposed to be dead. Whether a Shia comes back to Islam or not after apostatizing, he must be killed :p
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Who is that person on farid's profile picture?
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Who is that person on farid's profile picture?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdur-Rahman_al-Mu%27allimee_al-Yamani
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I would like to make it clear that my intention from this debate is to show that it is not possible for a Twelver to provide proof of the Twelve Imams.
Notice that my responses are very simple and short. I am not using complicated terminologies or philosophy. I am simply requesting evidence.
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And how are you going to show that by a debate? By having someone who has not thought about the issue that much not be able to answer you?
Khair, do you conclusion. And in 4-5 lines or so after the debate, I will answer, how this logic you are showing is wrong and it can be proven (ie. each Imam).
I will see what Abu Hadi says, but after the debate, a month or so, I will reply, because I told a moderator to ban my account for a month.
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Ok I decided I will post here, what I will post later.
Quran and mutuwatir hadiths prove that Ahlulbayt are a chosen family and there are Guides and Leaders to follow, and that Ali is the first of them, and Hassan and Hussain are included. Khair you don't want to get into that debate, but prove the rest of the Imams.
The proof is simple. Just like Salah, we expect Rasool to tell how much rakas, sujood, we would expect with this issue he would clarify their number and names, and he would emphasize on both separately in different occasions, so that they compliment each other.
As the mutuwatir hadiths proved Ahlulbayt authority as well as done Quran, the only thing was left, was the guidance as to who Ahlulbayt were.
(the bold is sufficient proof)
1. The numbers of Imams would serve as a reminder and guidance for later generations, so he would have emphasized on the number.
2. The names a long side with that emphasis, would compliment the number, and indicate to people exactly who the twelve were.
3. The Imams themselves designating exactly according to those named by the Rasool, would be a proof.
Without this, Allah and Rasool, didn't want to clarify the matter while designating Ahlulbayt (as) are authorities as indicated by mutuwatir hadiths of sunni sources, and Quran.
So now due to this, the followers of Ali and people who believe in a chosen family who have 1) A number designated by Rasool 2) Names according to that number, would be proof.
It's not required their enemies narrated their names and number as such is an illogical demand.
Now I've read a book with many authentic chains of Rasool designating the 12 Imams. And we have many authentic hadiths of 12 successors. Even if they are not all authentic, the very fact Rasool would have designated a number as a guidance for divisions later, as well, as then clarified their names, is proven by reason.
So the true sect would have to have that from Rasool, and there is only one designation of number, and only one designation of names from Rasoo.
Therefore together, they compliment each other, and the individual nass of the 12 Imams, together, compliment this, as they would be doing nass according to the hadith of the Rasool.
We'll see what Abu Hadi says. But this to me is using reason along with hadiths.
Wallahul mustaan.
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Salam,
Thank you for the amazing argument bro link, you can PM it to abu Hadi or wait until after that debate is done so we can give you some of our thoughts on it and maybe even restart the whole debate with you from scratch.
For now let's follow the guy that was endorsed.
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Alaikom asalam
The issue is I've presented this argument but I am ready for follow up questions, like why there was divisions after, if they were all named. Etc, And the hadiths that sort of give the impression hardly anyone of the companions knew their names like the division of Imam Jaffar.
I've thought about this issue, so, I am ready for such counter replies. Again, I thought about Abu Hadi thought about this issue, but with seeing him beating around the bush and emphasizing on Wilayah of Ali without rest of Imams in his argument, I don't think he is prepared and has thought about this issue.
I don't think it's a good idea to pm this argument and let Abu Hadi defend it, when often, you really need to think about an argument and counter points (and I argue to myself a lot to prove things, even Islam, and it's how I came back to Islam) for a while and it has to be reflected upon for a long time to defend it, no matter how simple it is.
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Ok I decided I will post here, what I will post later.
Quran and mutuwatir hadiths prove that Ahlulbayt are a chosen family and there are Guides and Leaders to follow, and that Ali is the first of them, and Hassan and Hussain are included. Khair you don't want to get into that debate, but prove the rest of the Imams.
The proof is simple. Just like Salah, we expect Rasool to tell how much rakas, sujood, we would expect with this issue he would clarify their number and names, and he would emphasize on both separately in different occasions, so that they compliment each other.
As the mutuwatir hadiths proved Ahlulbayt authority as well as done Quran, the only thing was left, was the guidance as to who Ahlulbayt were.
(the bold is sufficient proof)
The problem with your argument is that we haven't established that "mutuwatir hadiths proved Ahlulbayt authority as well as done Quran" so we can't get to the second point until we get to the first point.
The problem with proving the Shi'a aqeedah is that all the masters of Qur'anic tafseer and the science of hadeeth have been Sunnis; so its very difficult for them to get the second stage of where they try to use reason to aid their aqeedah.
It's not required their enemies narrated their names and number as such is an illogical demand.
Here is the problem I have with this quote. Had you said that about Bani Ummayyah or the Abbassids, I would've shrugged it off and moved on. However, it wasn't them who narrated our hundred of book of hadeeth, rather it was our scholars. So what I'm understanding from this, is you are implying that thousands of Sunni scholars in the first 300 years of Islam all got together as some sort of conspiracy because they were the enemies of the 12 Imams? Don't you see that as far fetched?
I also have a second problem with this quote. I, as a Sunni Muslim, see these people as part of my heritage and that I also have the same ideas and goals and them. Today, I also believe like they believed that the 12 Imamer aqeedah is false, am I now an enemy of these 12 Imams? I just don't understand how you guys think; constantly harping on and on about unity, then turning around and calling us enemies and Muslims but not Mu'mins.
والله المستعان
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I wont recommend farid to debate with struggling because of his extremely irrelevant arguments entirely based on qiyas which hardly anyone can understand. He will keep running around circles & drive you crazy, besides he has no idea of sunni sources & their reliability.
Exactly why rather not find what's common between Muslims and start from there.
example :
Read and educate yourself, Obey the commands of Allah(swt), Submit to His Will and acknowledge His Great Creation and associate not any partner in divinity to Him.
The worship of Allah is the basis of human existence, the greatest value to any soul is the worship of Allah(swt).
As-Salah - Prayer
Du’aa’ (Invocation/ Supplication).
As-Salah: Islamically it means to worship Allah(swt)through certain known and prescribed sayings and actions starting with Takbeer (saying Allahu Akbar Allah is the Greatest), and ending with Tasleem (saying: as-salaamu ‘alaykum wa Rahmatul-lahi wabarakaatuh may Allaah’s Peace, Mercy, and Blessings be upon you)
Performance of Salah
Intention (it is a determination in the heart that you are performing a particular Salah; not to be uttered).
Face the direction of the Qiblah (Sacred House in Makkah Known as Ka'bah). Raise your hands to the level of the shoulders, or earlobes, and say
ALLAHU AKBAR
Recite an Opening Invocation (du'aa) for Salah:
] سبحانَكَ اللهمَ وبِحَمدِكَ تَباركَ اسمُكَ وتَعالَى جَدُّكَ ولا إلَهَ غيرُك [
[Subhanaka Allaahumma wa bihamdika tabaarakas muka wa ta'aalaa jadduka wa laa ilaaha ghairuk.]
O Allah(swt)! I declare You far removed from above all imperfection, and that You deserve all Praise. Blessed is Your Name. Your Majesty (Glory and Might) is Exalted., and there is no true God Worthy of Worship Except You.
Recitation of Soorat Al-Faatiha (Opening Chapter of the Qur'an): Must be recited in every unit of prayer (Rak'ah). Begin by uttering the following with a low voice:
أعوذُ باللهِ منَ الشَّيطانِ الرَّجيم *** بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
A'oodthu billahi minash-shaitanir-rajeem.
(I seek Refuge with Allah from Satan, the outcast.)
Bismillaahir-Rahmannir-Raheem
(In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful, I begin-)
Then you recite the Faatiha in every Rak'ah, pausing after each verse (aayah):
- All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
- The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
- The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
- You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
- Guide us to the Straight Way
- The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians). At the end, one says Ameen.
Then one recites a short Surah from the Holy Quran then goes into rukoo.
While in Bowing position one says:
"سُبحانَ رَبِّيَ العَظيم"
Subhanna Rabbiyal 'Adheem (3 times) Far removed from every imperfection is my Rabb (Lord), the Great. [3 times].
Standing Erect (Qiyaam) after Rukoo': Rise from bowing
سَمِعَ اللهُ لِمَنْ حَمِدَهُ
Sami'Allahu li man hamdidah
Allah hears the one who praises Him.
Stand upright until one's very parts take their positions and say:
رَبَّنَا ولكَ الحَمد
Rabbana walakal-hamd
O our Rabb (Lord)! All the praise is due to You.
The Sujood - Prostration. (Ultimate Submission to Allah) and no one else.
"سُبحَانَ رَبِِّيَ الأعْلَى" (3 مرات)
Subhaana Rabiyyal-'Alaa (3 times)
"Far removed is my Rabb, the Most High, from any Imperfection"
When sitting up from Sujood one can say :
"رَبِّي اغفِر لِي"
Rabbigh-fir lee
O my Rabb! Forgive me.
Sitting for Tashahhud (Testification of Faith):
First Tashahhud
]التَّحِيَّاتُ لِلَّهِ وَالصَّلَوَاتُ وَالطَّيِّبَاتُ السَّلَامُ عَلَى النَّبِيُّ وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ السَّلَامُ عَلَيْنَا وَعَلَى عِبَادِ اللَّهِ الصَّالِحِين. أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَأَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا عَبْدُهُ وَرَسُولُهُ. [
Attahiyyaatu lillaahi wassalawaatu wattayyibatu. Assalaamu 'alayka ayyuhan-Nabiyyi warahmatullaahi wabarakaatuh. Assalaamu 'alyna wa 'ala 'ibaadillaahis saaliheen. Ash-hadu an laa ilaaha illallaah wa ash-hadu anna Muhammadan 'abduhu wa rasooluh.
All compliments [Allah is free of all imperfection, His is the dominion, Magnificence, Endless existence belongs to Him], prayers, and pure words and deeds, are due to Allah. May Allah grant the Prophet safety from all defects and imperfections and keep his message safe from all evil; [may Allah grant him] mercy and honor. May safety and security be granted to us and to all the righteous slaves of Allah. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.
Full Tashahhud recitation known as As-Salaatul Ibraaheemiyyah:
اللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ كَمَا صَلَّيْتَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَعَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ. اللَّهُمَّ بَارِكْ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ كَمَا بَارَكْتَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَعَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ
Allahumma salli 'ala Muhammad wa 'ala aali Muhammad kama sallaita 'ala Ibraaheem wa 'ala aali Ibraaheem innaka Hameedun Majeed, wabaarik 'ala Muhammad wa 'ala aali Muhamaad kama baarakta 'ala Ibraaheem wa 'ala aali Ibraaheem innaka Hameedun Majeed.
O Allah! Praise Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as You Praised Ibraaheem, and the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory. And send blessings on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent blessings on Ibraaheem, and the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory.
After recitation of the Tashahhud, you can supplicate Allaah with the following invocation (du'aa):
اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ عَذَابِ الْقَبْرِ وَأَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ فِتْنَةِ الْمَسِيحِ الدَّجَّالِ وَأَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ فِتْنَةِ الْمَحْيَا وَفِتْنَةِ الْمَمَاتِ اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ الْمَأْثَمِ وَالْمَغْرَمِ
Allahumma Inni a'oodthu bika min adthabil qabr, wa a'oodthu bika min fitnatil-Maseeh ad-Dajjal, wa a'oodthu bika min fitnatil mahya wal mamat. Allahumma inni a'oodthu bika minal-ma'tham walmaghram.
O Allah! I seek refuge with You from the Punishment of the grave and from the Fitnah (trail or affliction) of Ad-Dajjaal [pseudo Messiah], and from the Fitnah of life and Fitnah of death. O Allah! I seek refuge with You from the sins and from being in debt.
You may also ask Allah to bestow upon you from the good things for this life and for the hereafter.
Concluding Salah by Tasleem:
After you recite the Tashahhud and make the supplications, turn your head to the right and say:
السَّلامُ عَلَيكُم وَرَحمَةُ اللهِ وبَرَكَاتُه
Assalaammu 'alaykum warahmatul-lahi wabarakatuh
May Allaah's Peace, Mercy and Blessings be upon you.
Then turn your head left and say:
السَّلامُ عَلَيكُم وَرَحمَةُ الله
Assalaammu 'alaykum warahmatul-laah
Just by this tariqa you have accepted none other than Allah (swt) to exalt and worship over anything else.
Can this be so easy for a Muslim who worships ONLY Allah(swt) to have now problems herein after confirming his submission,so the idea of starting somwhere common for the greater glory of Islam rather than finding faults and being like immature intelligensia of let's hear it for......... www.(mufti)google.com
Ps : Let's rather strive together for the freedom of Palestine it is much better for us than fighting ourselves.
Allahu Alam
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Member "KOS75" whatever reason drove you to write what you did above, you're banned and have no business on our forum. Go to ShiaChat and preach there.
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At the death of every Imam, there was some division among shias about the succesors.If the Prophet gave a list of 12ve Imams there would be no blunders like nominating Ismail s/o jaffar as a successor.
Ismailis believe that Imam Jafar Sadiq deliberately created another line of Imams from Musa kadhim under Taqiyah, to provide cover for the real Imams of ismaelis.
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The problem with your argument is that we haven't established that "mutuwatir hadiths proved Ahlulbayt authority as well as done Quran" so we can't get to the second point until we get to the first point.
Well Farid doesn't want to debate that issue, he wants to take that for granted. If we take it for granted, then the second part proves the Wilyah of each of the 12 Imams would be proven.
wa salam
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Now I've read a book with many authentic chains of Rasool designating the 12 Imams. And we have many authentic hadiths of 12 successors. Even if they are not all authentic, the very fact Rasool would have designated a number as a guidance for divisions later, as well, as then clarified their names, is proven by reason.
Have you read Macisaac's response to the so called authentic ahadith of the 12? How it is a bidah which was crystallized later ? Also, are you okay with the fact that in these narrators there is takfir done against other descendants of Fatima who declared Imamate and had no clue of the 12 Calipah ahadith ? Next what is so strange is when the Hassani sadaat challenged the Hussani Sadaat none of the Imams have ever use the 12 Calipahs ahadith to convince the other side. Ever wonder why ? The reason is simple. There is no such thing as 12 Imams. Our religion is against fatalistic beliefs that justice can only be brought in by one Mahdi in the end of times. One top of that the romantic narrations linked to Mahdi are unrealistic.
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If Farid wants to debate me after Ramadan with my argument, I will. I am currently going under minor psychosis, so I need to stop debating for now.
The issue is if there is clear designation of Ahlulbayt position, then that logic follows. Then you be saying there is no clear designation of Ahlulbayt position, which is moving the goal posts (ie. taking for granted it is). Therefore, we would have to go back to the original proofs for Ahlulbayt in Quran and Mutuwatir hadiths.
wa salam
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If Farid wants to debate me after Ramadan with my argument, I will. I am currently going under minor psychosis, so I need to stop debating for now.
The issue is if there is clear designation of Ahlulbayt position, then that logic follows. Then you be saying there is no clear designation of Ahlulbayt position, which is moving the goal posts (ie. taking for granted it is). Therefore, we would have to go back to the original proofs for Ahlulbayt in Quran and Mutuwatir hadiths.
wa salam
minor psychosis?? better stay away from this activities with that condition, but then again most shia would be in that condition to believe in imamate nonsense - http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/the-confusing-history-of-shia-imamate-and-mahdi/
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Have you read Macisaac's response to the so called authentic ahadith of the 12?
Which response do you mean ? Any link ?
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@Farid i dont think Abu Hadi is the right choice to debate. I do not know whether he intentionally avoids the topic of the debate or if he simply do not understand your point. However its getting boring with the same lame arguments! Waste of time!
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When i read this from Abu Hadi, i realised he is just another typical shia:
"As followers of the Jaafari Mathhab, we don't have Sahih books, we investigate each hadith individually, and the hadith stands or falls based on it's own merits, not which book it is in."
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The sublime thing to do would be to end the debate, and state, he will discuss the topic with me. I realize by the way that there is some Sahih hadiths of Shias that show serious problems with the issue of Nass, but it is as Imam Jaffar says "don't forsake certainty for doubt, don't follow something unclear to you rather then from something clear ". When we have mututawatir hadiths and Quran designating Ahlulbayt as authorities, the logic I showed of the designation of their number and their names also follows, so then the numerous authentic chains (near 20) a long side all the non-authenticated chains of the naming of the 12 of the Imams before they were all born with the rational showed, standing as a clear evidence a long side the designation of 12, and the nomination of Imams according to the twelve named. Yes a few hadiths give the impression that such clear evidence is not known, but we cannot leave certainty and well established proof, for uncertainty and unestablished khabir wahad.
As for divisions despite this, we see in bani-Israel, Allah says he provided clear proofs regarding the affair, yet we see they divided. Often they disbelieved in Prophets despite them "sincerely' wanting to follow the "teachings" of Musa! And we see an example right from the start, where despite knowing Harun is a Prophet, they totally ignore his commands, and don't listen to him, but then start listening to Musa when he comes back.
This is an entirely illogical phenomenon. Yes if people were all rational and were never illogical, and followed clear proofs, this argument would stand.
But at the end of it, such arguments don't hold ground. Allah emphasizes that the people who thought Isa died had no knowledge of the issue. No matter how much something may appear to us in historical reports, sometimes the truth has to coincide with what is linked to God's affair of providing proofs.
For example, Isa was stated to be the one would rule (ie. along with Al-Mahdi) at the end times, if believers were told he would do this, then they would have to believe he would either live till this happens or God would spare him from death and return him when time is right. Now him taking him up is nothing some historians are going to write and emphasize on due to their disbeleif, so perhaps they begin to write about how he died and news spread he is gone, and so they conduct a story about how he got killed.
The matter is such now this is what appears to the Jews and Christians, not that God deceived them by putting a human that exactly looks like him but that the truth became obscured to the news that was spreading about him and the lie formed, that people automatically assumed must of been true as he was no longer anywhere to be seen.
The same is true to me of some these issues, to historians, who think the names of the 12 Imams weren't already there, or there wasn't clear nomination by the Imams for each of their successor, they will over emphasize on how most people became divided, even though, there wasn't even polls back then to know who did and who didn't believe, to get that idea. They seem a significant amount of people following a different Imam and then with no idea to the real numbers of who is following the true Imam or not, begin to say "majority of people".
In any rate, even if Majority of Shias did deviate, it can be that many of them weren't rational, they didn't properly and sincerely to arrive at the truth, but went with the flow of people.
Which ever way you , you look at it, it doesn't make sense for me, for 1 to negate what is established in Quran and mutuwatir hadiths, negate what we know by Rasool, would of done with respect to designating their number for a guidance for later generations, and then there is no doubt he would on different occasion emphasize their names so that the nomination of Imams has a corresponding truth handed down from Rasool. Allah in his wisdom only allowed one sect with such claims (ie. number designated by Rasool along with their names), so in this way, has protected the identities of the Ahlulbayt in Quran.
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@Link,
Those narrations naming the 12 Imams are all fabricated years after the fact. By the way, regarding this:
"When we have mututawatir hadiths and Quran designating Ahlulbayt as authorities"
Can you show me just ONE for the sake of curiosity?
You said:
"to negate what is established in Quran and mutuwatir hadiths"
Do you know that it's not even possible for any narration in your books to be Mutawatir? Or didn't you know this?
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When we have mututawatir hadiths and Quran designating Ahlulbayt as authorities, the logic I showed of the designation of their number and their names also follows, so then the numerous authentic chains (near 20) a long side all the non-authenticated chains of the naming of the 12 of the Imams before they were all born with the rational showed, standing as a clear evidence a long side the designation of 12, and the nomination of Imams according to the twelve named. Yes a few hadiths give the impression that such clear evidence is not known, but we cannot leave certainty and well established proof, for uncertainty and unestablished khabir wahad.
A few points بارك الله فيك:
1. Where are these mutawaatir hadeeths? Do you have an article or a book you can reference that mentions these?
2. How do you authenticate these ahadeeth? Is it through Ilm ar-Rijaal or do you compare them to (your understanding of) the Qur’an?
3. It is not only that there are more ahadeeth that “give the impression that such clear evidence is not known”, the fact that:
a. The majority of Muslims didn’t know about it or at the very least rejected the concept completely.
b. The majority of Shi’as would split up each time an Imam would die.
4. What is certain is that we are supposed to follow the Qur’an and Sunnah and refer to them when we disagree with each other (such as for example what is found in 4:59). What is not certain is that we are supposed to follow 12 Imams and 12 Imams only. Therefore, based on the PROPHETIC instructions, we are to leave that which is doubtful for that which is certain, بارك الله فيك.
As for divisions despite this, we see in bani-Israel, Allah says he provided clear proofs regarding the affair, yet we see they divided. Often they disbelieved in Prophets despite them "sincerely' wanting to follow the "teachings" of Musa! And we see an example right from the start, where despite knowing Harun is a Prophet, they totally ignore his commands, and don't listen to him, but then start listening to Musa when he comes back.
Here is the problem though, the Jews that remained did NOT reject Musa عليه السلام and no one today from amongst the Jews denies the Prophethood of Haroon عليه السلام. Mistakes happen during the times of the Prophets from their followers, some from their sincere followers and some from the hypocrites in the community. However, what remains today is a consistent belief amongst the Jews over these fundamental things. It is unlike the Shi’a who have a fundamental different theology than regular Muslims. This comparing is quite weak أحسن الله إليك>
This is an entirely illogical phenomenon. Yes if people were all rational and were never illogical, and followed clear proofs, this argument would stand.
Yet here is the main problem, we believe your position is completely illogical. So the question is, who is following logic? Logic dictates that something as important as the third pillar of the Shahadah would be mentioned numerous times and explicitly like the first two parts of the Shahadah are, and yet it is not. Logic dictates that Allah would tell us to “follow Ahl al-Bayt” exclusively, and yet he tells us to follow the Muhajireen and the Ansar (9:100). Logic dictates that Allah would not leave us to be guided by Imams who supposedly were constantly in taqiyyah and would purposefully misguide people who ask them questions out of taqiyyah. Notice that you and I have a different take on logic. But then again so do I and Hani, Farid, etc. Yet when we disagree, we take things back to the Qur’an and Sunnah because those are the fundamentals we base our religion on. When its something fundamental to the religion, you’ll find that all Sunnis agree whether liberal, conservative, Salafi, Asha’ri, Sufi etc. Yet ask a simple question like “who do you love more, Muhammad or Ali?” and see the kind of responses you’ll get on a Shi’a forum.
Argument comparing the deviance of Christians and Jews regarding Jesus to deviance of Shia
In any rate, even if Majority of Shias did deviate, it can be that many of them weren't rational, they didn't properly and sincerely to arrive at the truth, but went with the flow of people.
Here is the major problem with your argument. One of the major “proofs” for Shi’as is that we need an Imam to guide us in the absence of the Prophet. Yet, we find Shi’as, both historically and in modern times, to be one of the most contradictory sects if not the most contradictory. While, of couse, every Shi’a sees himself (or his Marj3) as the true Shi’a, and everyone else is deviated, yet the question remains; how does he know this? Is through logic, or is he/she being guided directly by the Imam?
Which ever way you , you look at it, it doesn't make sense for me, for 1 to negate what is established in Quran and mutuwatir hadiths, negate what we know by Rasool, would of done with respect to designating their number for a guidance for later generations, and then there is no doubt he would on different occasion emphasize their names so that the nomination of Imams has a corresponding truth handed down from Rasool. Allah in his wisdom only allowed one sect with such claims (ie. number designated by Rasool along with their names), so in this way, has protected the identities of the Ahlulbayt in Quran.
Yet that’s not true, the number of Imams, even in twelver Shi’a is disputed. Some say it was 11 and some say 13, and some say 24!!! The fact that you only see one side, and don’t see the opposite, that all other Shi’a sects died out and that the reports were made up after the death of Hasan al-Askari; which makes more sense, or is more “logical” to me.
الله اهدنا لما تحبه وترضى
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There are two proofs that the list of 12 Imams was fake and produced later by the Imamis
1)Division:Some division is expected in every group but this is strange that Shia divided at the death of every Imam in choosing the next Imam.If such a list existed,there would be no question of anyone else claiming the Imamat.
Imam Baqir and jafar wer challenged by Imam zaid and Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn al-Hasan al-Muthana ibn al-Hasan al-mujtaba ibn 'Ali ibnAbi Talib or Muhammad al-Nafs al-Zakiyya and two shia sects were formed.
Due to ambiguity that surrounds the issue of succession after Imam Sadiq, and the acceptance of the pivots of the Imamate theory of the Imamate of Abdullah al-Aftah, the Imamate Shiites, especially Mufaddal bin Umar Abu Basir and Yaqub al-Siraj, have tried to bring texts that establish the will of Imam Sadiq to his son Kadhim.
Hence the general masses of the Shiites at the time of Imam Kadhim have turned to Isa bin Zayd bin Ali ,and paid him allegiance secretly as the Imam in the year 156 A.H. while he was in Iraq. People from Ahwaz, Wasit, Makkah, Madinah and Tihamah came to pay him allegiance.
Death of Musa kadhim was even more confusing because Imami estabilished his Imamat by claiming that he was mehdi. Imam Ali bin Musa Rida was not recognized as the Imam by the majority of the Shiites, and even by the children of Imam Kadhim, and even by the revered wife of the Imam, Umm Ahmad
2)Ignorance.Many followers of Imam died without knowing the identity of next Imam,if there was a list,they would have been told. Zurarah bin A’yun, being one of the leading companions of both Imams Baqir and Sadiq died, without knowing the identity of the new Imam. He did send his son, Ubaidullah from Kufah to Madinah, to inquire about the new Imam, but was overtaken by death. At the time of his death, he placed the Quran on his chest and said: “ O Allah I testify to follow anyone whose Imamate was established by this Book`` Ikmal al-Din 75
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Guys, I know that Abu Hadi is not the right man for this debate.
I only blame the knowledgeable Shias that sat quietly and let him represent them. I wish guidance for Abu Hadi, for he seems sincere and confused.
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I also was shocked when i saw that topic called “who do you love more, Muhammad or Ali?” on SC. It clearly shows their deviation.
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Can you show me just ONE for the sake of curiosity?
I am talking about what is established as Tawatur in Sunni sources like hadithal thaqalain with it's various verision along with Man Kunti Mawla Fa hadaa Aliyan Mawla which give context to each other in meaning, as well the Salawat upn the family of Mohammad being just like the Salawat upon the family of Ibrahim and the comparision.
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Link, you should go and research who Ahlul Sunnah considers to be the 'itra of Rasul Allah (saw) and his family.
This is a big problem for Twelvers, you think we have the same weird view that only Fatima/Ali/Hassan/Husayn and 9 descendants from al-Husayn (ra) are his family and descendants.
We reject and heap scorn on such a view.
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Can you show me just ONE for the sake of curiosity?
I am talking about what is established as Tawatur in Sunni sources like hadithal thaqalain with it's various verision along with Man Kunti Mawla Fa hadaa Aliyan Mawla which give context to each other in meaning, as well the Salawat upn the family of Mohammad being just like the Salawat upon the family of Ibrahim and the comparision.
"Man kunti"? "Fa hadaa Aliyan"?
You should learn basic sarf and nahw.
The Salawat upon the family of our Prophet doesn't proove the Shi'ah belief in 12 infallible imams.
If the Salawat was a proof for the Shi'ah belief in 12 infallible imams then the Salat Ul Ibrahimiyyah would (according to you) mean that there were infallible imams from the family of Prophet Ibrahim, and what is your proof for that?
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If the Salawat was a proof for the Shi'ah belief in 12 infallible imams then the Salat Ul Ibrahimiyyah would (according to you) mean that there were infallible imams from the family of Prophet Ibrahim, and what is your proof for that?
Salam
Ibrahim was a Prophet and a Messenger. He then became an Imam after being given good news of Isaac and Yaqoub. He asked for it to be of his offspring because he saw the blessing and favor of it to be great. Regarding, Ibrahim, Isaac, and Yaqoub, Quran says "And we made the Imams who guide by our command...", and in another place says "Verily God chose Adam and Nuh and the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds". And in another place says that the mercy of God and his blessings on creation is upon them the Ahlulbayt (ie. Auli-Ibrahim). And else where says "so verily we gave the family of Ibrahim, the book and the wisdom, and we gave the a great authority".
Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub, and Yusuf were such that believers centered around then, God and his Angels, blessed them, and the believers benefit from their outward guidance as well as their spiritual inward guidance by God's command. They were blessed by having near station with God but also being the means of others coming to God and guiding others toward God, and they had the collective blessings on humanity. Sarah although believed by Jews to a Prophet, we know only men are Prophets but she was a chosen person, exalted person as well. When we defined Nubuwa, we define it to be a relationship of revelation to the people while Jews included Muhadaths (those spoken to by God and Angels), so Sarah would be that by English definition, but not by Islamic definition.
The similar blessing on Auli-Mohammad, the fact, we have to remember them in Salah, and the fact that true families of Prophets are exalted chosen ones, who according to the words of Allah to Nuh do not include those who conduct is other then righteous, shows auli-Mohammad are a similar chosen family.
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Link, you should go and research who Ahlul Sunnah considers to be the 'itra of Rasul Allah (saw) and his family.
This is a big problem for Twelvers, you think we have the same weird view that only Fatima/Ali/Hassan/Husayn and 9 descendants from al-Husayn (ra) are his family and descendants.
We reject and heap scorn on such a view.
I know you don't have the same view of Auli-Mohammad as us, but the Quran makes a distinction between one type of family of Prophets with another, for example, he states the unjust disbelieving wife of Lut was part of Auli-Lut but we read else where to Nuh, that people who do other then righteous deeds actions are not included in family of Prophets. And we read else where the family of Ibrahim was chosen, and what was meant by chosen is the same way Adam and Nuh, and Mariam was chosen as given by the context of the verses. And we read the family of Ibrahim were given the book and wisdom, and were given a great authority.
The fact the Prophet emphasized his family as his legacy ALONGSIDE Quran, and paired them up as emphasizing as to what he is leaving us, to me, leaves no doubt, that he is talking about a chosen family concept that Quran devoted verses to emphasize on.
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Have you read Macisaac's response to the so called authentic ahadith of the 12?
Which response do you mean ? Any link ?
http://www.tashayyu.org/articles/the-alteration-and-reorientation-of-text-in-twelver-shi-ism
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I know you don't have the same view of Auli-Mohammad as us, but the Quran makes a distinction between one type of family of Prophets with another, for example, he states the unjust disbelieving wife of Lut was part of Auli-Lut but we read else where to Nuh, that people who do other then righteous deeds actions are not included in family of Prophets. And we read else where the family of Ibrahim was chosen, and what was meant by chosen is the same way Adam and Nuh, and Mariam was chosen as given by the context of the verses. And we read the family of Ibrahim were given the book and wisdom, and were given a great authority.
The fact the Prophet emphasized his family as his legacy ALONGSIDE Quran, and paired them up as emphasizing as to what he is leaving us, to me, leaves no doubt, that he is talking about a chosen family concept that Quran devoted verses to emphasize on.
Indeed, the 'itra does not include the kaffir relatives of the Prophet (saw).
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If the Salawat was a proof for the Shi'ah belief in 12 infallible imams then the Salat Ul Ibrahimiyyah would (according to you) mean that there were infallible imams from the family of Prophet Ibrahim, and what is your proof for that?
Salam
Ibrahim was a Prophet and a Messenger. He then became an Imam after being given good news of Isaac and Yaqoub. He asked for it to be of his offspring because he saw the blessing and favor of it to be great. Regarding, Ibrahim, Isaac, and Yaqoub, Quran says "And we made the Imams who guide by our command...", and in another place says "Verily God chose Adam and Nuh and the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds". And in another place says that the mercy of God and his blessings on creation is upon them the Ahlulbayt (ie. Auli-Ibrahim). And else where says "so verily we gave the family of Ibrahim, the book and the wisdom, and we gave the a great authority".
Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub, and Yusuf were such that believers centered around then, God and his Angels, blessed them, and the believers benefit from their outward guidance as well as their spiritual inward guidance by God's command. They were blessed by having near station with God but also being the means of others coming to God and guiding others toward God, and they had the collective blessings on humanity. Sarah although believed by Jews to a Prophet, we know only men are Prophets but she was a chosen person, exalted person as well. When we defined Nubuwa, we define it to be a relationship of revelation to the people while Jews included Muhadaths (those spoken to by God and Angels), so Sarah would be that by English definition, but not by Islamic definition.
The similar blessing on Auli-Mohammad, the fact, we have to remember them in Salah, and the fact that true families of Prophets are exalted chosen ones, who according to the words of Allah to Nuh do not include those who conduct is other then righteous, shows auli-Mohammad are a similar chosen family.
Our salawaat does not include:
1. Unjust offspring of Ibrahim (as).
2. Unjust offspring of Rasul Allah (saw).
There is no need to complicate things the way you do, Islam isn't a religion of codes and hidden messages.
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Normal people who aren't unjust aren't people who would be a long side Quran as his legacy. The legacy of being put a long side Quran suggests it's people who God wants us to follow like the Quran and we see in Quran a constant theme about the people God makes the means toward him to be of the best and elite. Nor are normal good people of offspring of Ibrahim or Mohammad are chosen above the worlds like Adam and Nuh are, as suggest Auli-Ibrahim is. The verses explaining Auli-Imran to being a chosen person like Mariam, and then after Mariam Isa, shows, that it's not just normal good people in these type of families.
The Salawatal Auli-Ibrahim suggests in the same way Ibrahim was blessed, the family of Ibrahim was blessed. And Mohammad and the family of Mohammad are blessed in a similar way Ibrahim is blessed as well as the family of Ibrahim.
If Allah singled out the good offspring of Mohammad for Salawat, and made it incumbent to bless them with him, but other good people are excluded, this shows a corruption on the side of Islam.
However, if the family of Mohammad are being blessed because they are the best people among all people to blessed or that God wants us to recognize all blessings on the Prophet go upon them, and he wants us to be attached to them like the Prophet and remember a guiding role position they have with this nation, then this is not corruption but has an exalted wisdom.
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Some parts of your analysis are correct, other parts are convoluted nonsense (with all due respect).
Normal people who aren't unjust aren't people who would be a long side Quran as his legacy.
You are complicating the issue.
Hadith ath-Thaqalayn isn't about his legacy, it's about the things that he is leaving behind that are dear to him. No doubt the Qur'an is one of these, and no doubt his family members and descendants are another.
The Salawatal Auli-Ibrahim suggests in the same way Ibrahim was blessed, the family of Ibrahim was blessed.
Not at all - this would imply that all of Ibrahim (as)'s family were made Prophets, which is false. You are just reaching now.
If Allah singled out the good offspring of Mohammad for Salawat, and made it incumbent to bless them with him, but other good people are excluded, this shows a corruption on the side of Islam.
However, if the family of Mohammad are being blessed because they are the best people among all people to blessed or that God wants us to recognize all blessings on the Prophet go upon them, and he wants us to be attached to them like the Prophet and remember a guiding role position they have with this nation, then this is not corruption but has an exalted wisdom.
No doubt Rasul Allah (swt) is singled out with privileges that others are not, and one of those privileges is that we bless his pious relatives and descendants.
This is because of Rasul Allah's (saw) status in the eyes of Allah (swt), and not because of the status of his 'itra.
His 'itra are not better than other Muslims simply by virtue of their relation to him. For example Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman are better than every single one of his 'itra, while not being related to him by blood.
His 'itra are more noble in lineage, and that is all.
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I will not make any further responses in this thread, it has been derailed enough.
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Husayn, don't worry about derailing this thread, we can continue discussing here. Besides, Farid's thing is on SC now.
As for bro Link, you're talking about Thaqalayn and Ghadir but you misunderstand both, neither has anything even remotely related to leadership and authority.
We have articles on our website discussing Thaqalayn, Ghadir and the verse of Ibrahim's (as) appointment, would you like me to show you so that you may be up to date?
Verse of Imamah:
http://twelvershia.net/2013/08/15/verse-of-imamat-ibrahim-shia-understanding-of-oppressors-is-it-qati-or-dhanni/
Hadith al-Thaqalayn:
http://twelvershia.net/2013/10/26/detailed-research-on-the-texts-and-chains-of-al-thaqalayn/
Ghadir is briefly discussed here:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/11/01/rasul-allah-saw-and-the-divine-order-of-imamah/
& here:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/11/13/rasul-allah-saw-and-the-future-of-the-ummah/
As for those texts for the appointment of the 12, listen to my audio book here:
http://twelvershia.net/2015/03/02/audio-book-al-imamah-wal-nass/
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Salam
Ok. I will not argue further. Just leaving last comment. I do believe with exception of Sarah, all of the family of Ibrahim were Prophets and Imams. They had both. The salawatil Ibrahimi refers to the blessings they had on their souls, and the guidance in guiding others they receive a certain honor and beauty and glory and majesty specially with regards to Imammate and a with high station of intercession that becomes a means of honor for them as well. I believe the same type of blessings, all blessings on creations, each member of the family of Ibrahim had. I believe this is obvious in Suratal Hud, I believe it's obvious in the Salawat Auli-Ibrahim had the same blessings upon Ibrahim, and I believe Mohammad and the family of Mohammad are similarly blessed with all blessings in creation, and the blessings of being spiritual Guides and means to Allah, are there, not receiving a revelation to be delivered to the people didn't take away these type of blessings away from their souls. I believe Mohammad is similarly blessed as Auli-Ibrahim, not just Ibrahim, and this is obvious by the Salawat. And Auli-Mohammad is simiarly blessed as Ibrahim, and not just auli-Ibrahim, and this is obvious by the Salawat.
As for thaqalain, to me it's obvious it's his legacy by emphasizing their weightiness with Quran, I will not debate further.
Ma'asalama
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Can you show me just ONE for the sake of curiosity?
I am talking about what is established as Tawatur in Sunni sources like hadithal thaqalain with it's various verision along with Man Kunti Mawla Fa hadaa Aliyan Mawla which give context to each other in meaning,
I found all claims answered on Sunnah website. Hadeeth thaqalain along with ghadeer event here:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2015/02/19/hadeeth-al-thaqalayntwo-weighty-things-the-correct-understanding-and-a-spot-on-perspective-of-sunnis/
as well the Salawat upn the family of Mohammad being just like the Salawat upon the family of Ibrahim and the comparision.
Salawat issue dealt here:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/salawat-series-the-fact-about-salawatdurood-regarding-which-shias-are-unaware/
I know you don't have the same view of Auli-Mohammad as us, but the Quran makes a distinction between one type of family of Prophets with another,
This was dealt here
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2010/10/30/deception-of-shias-by-categorizing-the-ahlebayt-of-prophetspbut/
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Brother link in the near future I may ask for your skype so we can have a chat about everything related to `Ali's Imamah.
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That "debate" was embarrassing.
I would like to say that Farid won, but it's kind of hard to say he won when the debate never really took place. It looked more like Abu Hadi was avoiding the topic of the debate.
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Believe it or not, I entered the chatroom on Shiachat and some of them bashed me for accepting the debate, accusing me of looking for an "easy win"... As if I knew of Abu Hadi's level.
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Believe it or not, I entered the chatroom on Shiachat and some of them bashed me for accepting the debate, accusing me of looking for an "easy win"... As if I knew of Abu Hadi's level.
They always do that when their side loses (which is always).
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Well, I can give you a tip: if they have a picture of Khomeini or Khamenei as their display photograph, they know next to nothing about Islam; Sunni or Shia.
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Well yes, this is a lame picture, very childish.
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Great analyse sheikh :p
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So the debate which never started because of a confused shia eventually ended
I say confused, because first he said ghadeer is clear cut proof
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and then after wasting so much time he said he also need hadith other than ghadeer to proof that it is a clear cut proof.....:P As always, only confused people becomes a shia. At least he realised & stop, otherwise faridov will probably eat him alive on ghadeer
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May Allah bless faridov for having so much patience with such a people :D
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Seems like you enjoyed yourself akhi Hadrami. =)
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He talks about wasting time but he was the one who wasted all this time.
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Prediction: The debate will go on a while until it becomes clear the Shi'i debater can't win, so the moderator will close the thread because "its a useless debate."
Your prediction was 100% accurate, ya akhi. Subhan Allah.
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The 12er Shia are like jellyfish. They have no backbone. They just like to sting you by antagonizing Sunni Islam, but when it comes to defense they got nothing.
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started with his so called "logic", directly jumps towards the Quran in next post, and finally ends on a Hadith, wht else u could expect frm this shia who was not following his own rule..
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Seems like you enjoyed yourself akhi Hadrami. =)
Looking at another shia with arsenal of proofs and never use it is funny bro. All those proofs are made of plastic anyway :D
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Dude, atleast plastic can stand still, shiism can't :D
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I can prove shia imamate with logic. I don't need Sunni hadith. Can I take this challenge?
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I can prove shia imamate with logic. I don't need Sunni hadith. Can I take this challenge?
"Logic". I can guarantee that whatever you come up with will be illogical and full of contradictions and things that don't add up.
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I can prove shia imamate with logic. I don't need Sunni hadith. Can I take this challenge?
You can open a thread and argue whatever you wish bro.
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I can prove shia imamate with logic. I don't need Sunni hadith. Can I take this challenge?
"Logic". I can guarantee that whatever you come up with will be illogical and full of contradictions and things that don't add up.
you mean like how sunni say ghayba contradict imamate? I believe in infallible imams, i am obedient to imam. shia obey imam. it is not contradiction because sunni also obey the prophet without meeting him. Or do sunni have to see him in person to obey him?
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I can prove shia imamate with logic. I don't need Sunni hadith. Can I take this challenge?
"Logic". I can guarantee that whatever you come up with will be illogical and full of contradictions and things that don't add up.
you mean like how sunni say ghayba contradict imamate? I believe in infallible imams, i am obedient to imam. shia obey imam. it is not contradiction because sunni also obey the prophet without meeting him. Or do sunni have to see him in person to obey him?
He left us the Qur'an and Sunnah.
What'd your current leader leave you?
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I can prove shia imamate with logic. I don't need Sunni hadith. Can I take this challenge?
"Logic". I can guarantee that whatever you come up with will be illogical and full of contradictions and things that don't add up.
you mean like how sunni say ghayba contradict imamate? I believe in infallible imams, i am obedient to imam. shia obey imam. it is not contradiction because sunni also obey the prophet without meeting him. Or do sunni have to see him in person to obey him?
He left us the Qur'an and Sunnah.
What'd your current leader leave you?
we have the quran & hadith from our imams. Although we got them from non fallible, those people told us that there would be infallibles
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So you take your religion from fallible people actually who are telling you that these imams were infallible.
Shiism just got crushed, thanks :D