Challenged Issued to Shiachatters

[Hani]

But I'll see what Abu Hadi says. I don't know why no one supported me debating when I showed confidence in exactly what you would say and promised I had a good response.

Kindly write your response to abu Hadi in a PM so that we can refute both at once.

[Hani]

For those who didn't notice, abu Hadi started with `Aqli arguments (That are the same repeated weak material that Mufid, Murtada, Helli and Sadr wrote in their books) but was given simple logical answers so he jumped straight away to Mutawatir Hadith.

Remember he listed the strength of his arguments as such: Intellect then Mass transmitted narrations and finally Qur'an.

[Link]

... this is because when I came back to Islam, I started to question, how can you prove which Ahlulbayt to follow, or which Imams and not resort to circular reasoning. I've come up with reasoning towards this.

Why don't you just post it then?

I've thought about the issue, and I don't recall but I've explained in one thread (don't recall the thread). The point is you state something and you should be able to defend it. Just stating it to someone who hasn't thought deeply about the issue in a pm, would not be fair for my argument.

If Farid after Ramadan wants to debate me about it, that's ok. Abu Hadi might still have good reasons, I don't know if he does.

But while I was in doubts, I made a thread or posted (can't remember which) about circular reasoning of the following:

"We state we follow these twelve Imams (exact ones) due to our hadiths"
"Yet we follow these hadiths, due it be narrated from twelve Imams or sect/books/narrators that believes in the 12 Imams".

How do we escape this circular reasoning.

I don't know how much Shias have thought about this issue. Also, I stated clearly in that thread: "Twelve Caliphs from Quraysh" hadith is from ONE companion. How can we rely on a hadith from one companion.

So I came up with reasoning that depends on texts and compliments it. We'll see what Abu Hadi states.

I'm not going to interfere in the debate. If Farid wants to debate me after that's up to him.

[Bolani Muslim]

It's off topic, but according to Shiaism, Agha Link is supposed to be dead. Whether a Shia comes back to Islam or not after apostatizing, he must be killed :p

[Furkan]

Who is that person on farid's profile picture?

[Khaled]

Who is that person on farid's profile picture?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdur-Rahman_al-Mu%27allimee_al-Yamani

[Farid]

I would like to make it clear that my intention from this debate is to show that it is not possible for a Twelver to provide proof of the Twelve Imams.

Notice that my responses are very simple and short. I am not using complicated terminologies or philosophy. I am simply requesting evidence.

[Link]

And how are you going to show that by a debate? By having someone who has not thought about the issue that much not be able to answer you?

Khair, do you conclusion. And in 4-5 lines or so after the debate, I will answer, how this logic you are showing is wrong and it can be proven (ie. each Imam).

I will see what Abu Hadi says, but after the debate, a month or so, I will reply, because I told a moderator to ban my account for a month.

[Link]

Ok I decided I will post here, what I will post later.

Quran and mutuwatir hadiths prove that Ahlulbayt are a chosen family and there are Guides and Leaders to follow, and that Ali is the first of them, and Hassan and Hussain are included. Khair you don't want to get into that debate, but prove the rest of the Imams.

The proof is simple. Just like Salah, we expect Rasool to tell how much rakas, sujood, we would expect with this issue he would clarify their number and names, and he would emphasize on both separately in different occasions, so that they compliment each other.

As the mutuwatir hadiths proved Ahlulbayt authority as well as done Quran, the only thing was left, was the guidance as to who Ahlulbayt were.

(the bold is sufficient proof)

1. The numbers of Imams would serve as a reminder and guidance for later generations, so he would have emphasized on the number.
2. The names a long side with that emphasis, would compliment the number, and indicate to people exactly who the twelve were.
3. The Imams themselves designating exactly according to those named by the Rasool, would be a proof.

Without this, Allah and Rasool, didn't want to clarify the matter while designating Ahlulbayt (as) are authorities as indicated by mutuwatir hadiths of sunni sources, and Quran.

So now due to this, the followers of Ali and people who believe in a chosen family who have 1) A number designated by Rasool 2) Names according to that number, would be proof.

It's not required their enemies narrated their names and number as such is an illogical demand.

Now I've read a book with many authentic chains of Rasool designating the 12 Imams.  And we have many authentic hadiths of 12 successors. Even if they are not all authentic, the very fact Rasool would have designated a number as a guidance for divisions later, as well, as then clarified their names, is proven by reason.

So the true sect would have to have that from Rasool, and there is only one designation of number, and only one designation of names from Rasoo.

Therefore together, they compliment each other, and the individual nass of the 12 Imams, together, compliment this, as they would be doing nass according to the hadith of the Rasool.

We'll see what Abu Hadi says. But this to me is using reason along with hadiths.

Wallahul mustaan.

[Hani]

Salam,

Thank you for the amazing argument bro link, you can PM it to abu Hadi or wait until after that debate is done so we can give you some of our thoughts on it and maybe even restart the whole debate with you from scratch.

For now let's follow the guy that was endorsed.

[Link]

Alaikom asalam

The issue is I've presented this argument but I am ready for follow up questions, like why there was divisions after, if they were all named. Etc, And the hadiths that sort of give the impression hardly anyone of the companions knew their names like the division of Imam Jaffar.

I've thought about this issue, so, I am ready for such counter replies. Again, I thought about Abu Hadi thought about this issue, but with seeing him beating around the bush and emphasizing on Wilayah of Ali without rest of Imams in his argument, I don't think he is prepared and has thought about this issue.

I don't think it's a good idea to pm this argument and let Abu Hadi defend it, when often, you really need to think about an argument and counter points (and I argue to myself a lot to prove things, even Islam, and it's how I came back to Islam) for a while and it has to be reflected upon for a long time to defend it, no matter how simple it is.

[Khaled]

Ok I decided I will post here, what I will post later.

Quran and mutuwatir hadiths prove that Ahlulbayt are a chosen family and there are Guides and Leaders to follow, and that Ali is the first of them, and Hassan and Hussain are included. Khair you don't want to get into that debate, but prove the rest of the Imams.

The proof is simple. Just like Salah, we expect Rasool to tell how much rakas, sujood, we would expect with this issue he would clarify their number and names, and he would emphasize on both separately in different occasions, so that they compliment each other.

As the mutuwatir hadiths proved Ahlulbayt authority as well as done Quran, the only thing was left, was the guidance as to who Ahlulbayt were.

(the bold is sufficient proof)

The problem with your argument is that we haven't established that "mutuwatir hadiths proved Ahlulbayt authority as well as done Quran" so we can't get to the second point until we get to the first point.

The problem with proving the Shi'a aqeedah is that all the masters of Qur'anic tafseer and the science of hadeeth have been Sunnis; so its very difficult for them to get the second stage of where they try to use reason to aid their aqeedah.

It's not required their enemies narrated their names and number as such is an illogical demand.

Here is the problem I have with this quote.  Had you said that about Bani Ummayyah or the Abbassids, I would've shrugged it off and moved on.  However, it wasn't them who narrated our hundred of book of hadeeth, rather it was our scholars.  So what I'm understanding from this, is you are implying that thousands of Sunni scholars in the first 300 years of Islam all got together as some sort of conspiracy because they were the enemies of the 12 Imams?  Don't you see that as far fetched?

I also have a second problem with this quote.  I, as a Sunni Muslim, see these people as part of my heritage and that I also have the same ideas and goals and them.  Today, I also believe like they believed that the 12 Imamer aqeedah is false, am I now an enemy of these 12 Imams?  I just don't understand how you guys think; constantly harping on and on about unity, then turning around and calling us enemies and Muslims but not Mu'mins.

والله المستعان

[KOS75]

I wont recommend farid to debate with struggling because of his extremely irrelevant arguments entirely based on qiyas which hardly anyone can understand. He will keep running around circles & drive you crazy, besides he has no idea of sunni sources & their reliability.

Exactly why rather not find what's common between Muslims and start from there.

example :

Read and educate yourself, Obey the commands of Allah(swt), Submit to His Will and acknowledge His Great Creation and associate not any partner in divinity to Him.

The worship of Allah is the basis of human existence, the greatest value to any soul is the worship of Allah(swt).

As-Salah - Prayer
Du’aa’ (Invocation/ Supplication).

As-Salah: Islamically it means to worship Allah(swt)through certain known and prescribed sayings and actions starting with Takbeer (saying Allahu Akbar Allah is the Greatest), and ending with Tasleem (saying: as-salaamu ‘alaykum wa Rahmatul-lahi wabarakaatuh may Allaah’s Peace, Mercy, and Blessings be upon you) 

Performance of Salah

Intention (it is a determination in the heart that you are performing a particular Salah; not to be uttered).

Face the direction of the Qiblah (Sacred House in Makkah Known as Ka'bah). Raise your hands to the level of the shoulders, or earlobes, and say

ALLAHU AKBAR

Recite an Opening Invocation (du'aa) for Salah:

] سبحانَكَ اللهمَ وبِحَمدِكَ تَباركَ اسمُكَ وتَعالَى جَدُّكَ ولا إلَهَ غيرُك [

[Subhanaka Allaahumma wa bihamdika tabaarakas muka wa ta'aalaa jadduka wa laa ilaaha ghairuk.]

O Allah(swt)! I declare You far removed from above all imperfection, and that You deserve all Praise.  Blessed is Your Name. Your Majesty (Glory and Might) is Exalted., and there is no true God Worthy of Worship Except You.

Recitation of Soorat Al-Faatiha (Opening Chapter of the Qur'an): Must be recited in every unit of prayer (Rak'ah). Begin by uttering the following with a low voice:

أعوذُ باللهِ منَ الشَّيطانِ الرَّجيم *** بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم


A'oodthu billahi minash-shaitanir-rajeem.

(I seek Refuge with Allah from Satan, the outcast.)

Bismillaahir-Rahmannir-Raheem
(In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful, I begin-)

Then you recite the Faatiha in every Rak'ah, pausing after each verse (aayah):

- All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
- The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
- The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)  
- You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).  
- Guide us to the Straight Way 
- The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians). At the end, one says Ameen.

Then one recites a short Surah from the Holy Quran then goes into rukoo.

While in Bowing position one says:

"سُبحانَ رَبِّيَ العَظيم"
Subhanna Rabbiyal 'Adheem (3 times) Far removed from every imperfection is my Rabb (Lord), the Great.  [3 times].

Standing Erect (Qiyaam) after Rukoo': Rise from bowing

سَمِعَ اللهُ لِمَنْ حَمِدَهُ
Sami'Allahu li man hamdidah

Allah hears the one who praises Him.

Stand upright until one's very parts take their positions and say:

رَبَّنَا ولكَ الحَمد
Rabbana walakal-hamd

O our Rabb (Lord)! All the praise is due to You.


The Sujood - Prostration. (Ultimate Submission to Allah) and no one else.

"سُبحَانَ رَبِِّيَ الأعْلَى" (3 مرات)
Subhaana Rabiyyal-'Alaa (3 times)
"Far removed is my Rabb, the Most High, from any Imperfection"

When sitting up from Sujood one can say :

"رَبِّي اغفِر لِي"
Rabbigh-fir lee

O my Rabb! Forgive me.

Sitting for Tashahhud (Testification of Faith):
First Tashahhud

]التَّحِيَّاتُ لِلَّهِ وَالصَّلَوَاتُ وَالطَّيِّبَاتُ السَّلَامُ عَلَى النَّبِيُّ وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ السَّلَامُ عَلَيْنَا وَعَلَى عِبَادِ اللَّهِ الصَّالِحِين. أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَأَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا عَبْدُهُ وَرَسُولُهُ. [

Attahiyyaatu lillaahi wassalawaatu wattayyibatu. Assalaamu 'alayka ayyuhan-Nabiyyi warahmatullaahi wabarakaatuh. Assalaamu 'alyna wa 'ala 'ibaadillaahis saaliheen. Ash-hadu an laa ilaaha illallaah wa ash-hadu anna Muhammadan 'abduhu wa rasooluh.

All compliments [Allah is free of all imperfection, His is the dominion, Magnificence, Endless existence belongs to Him], prayers, and pure words and deeds, are due to Allah. May Allah grant the Prophet safety from all defects and imperfections and keep his message safe from all evil; [may Allah grant him] mercy and honor. May safety and security be granted to us and to all the righteous slaves of Allah. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

Full Tashahhud recitation known as As-Salaatul Ibraaheemiyyah:

 اللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ كَمَا صَلَّيْتَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَعَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ. اللَّهُمَّ بَارِكْ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ كَمَا بَارَكْتَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَعَلَى آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ


Allahumma salli 'ala Muhammad wa 'ala aali Muhammad kama sallaita 'ala Ibraaheem wa 'ala aali Ibraaheem innaka Hameedun Majeed, wabaarik 'ala Muhammad wa 'ala aali Muhamaad kama baarakta 'ala Ibraaheem wa 'ala aali Ibraaheem innaka Hameedun Majeed.

O Allah! Praise Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as You Praised Ibraaheem, and the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory. And send blessings on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent blessings on Ibraaheem, and the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory.

After recitation of the Tashahhud, you can supplicate Allaah with the following invocation (du'aa):

اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ عَذَابِ الْقَبْرِ وَأَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ فِتْنَةِ الْمَسِيحِ الدَّجَّالِ وَأَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ فِتْنَةِ الْمَحْيَا وَفِتْنَةِ الْمَمَاتِ اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ الْمَأْثَمِ وَالْمَغْرَمِ


Allahumma Inni a'oodthu bika min adthabil qabr, wa a'oodthu bika min fitnatil-Maseeh ad-Dajjal, wa a'oodthu bika min fitnatil mahya wal mamat. Allahumma inni a'oodthu bika minal-ma'tham walmaghram.

O Allah! I seek refuge with You from the Punishment of the grave and from the Fitnah (trail or affliction) of Ad-Dajjaal [pseudo Messiah], and from the Fitnah of life and Fitnah of death. O Allah! I seek refuge with You from the sins and from being in debt.
 
You may also ask Allah to bestow upon you from the good things for this life and for the hereafter.

Concluding Salah by Tasleem:
After you recite the Tashahhud and make the supplications, turn your head to the right and say:

السَّلامُ عَلَيكُم وَرَحمَةُ اللهِ وبَرَكَاتُه


Assalaammu 'alaykum warahmatul-lahi wabarakatuh
May Allaah's Peace, Mercy and Blessings be upon you.

Then turn your head left and say:
السَّلامُ عَلَيكُم وَرَحمَةُ الله
Assalaammu 'alaykum warahmatul-laah 

Just by this tariqa you have accepted none other than Allah (swt) to exalt and worship over anything else.

Can this be so easy for a Muslim who worships ONLY Allah(swt) to have now problems herein after confirming his submission,so the idea of starting somwhere common for the greater glory of Islam rather than finding faults and being like immature intelligensia of let's hear it for......... www.(mufti)google.com

Ps : Let's rather strive together for the freedom of Palestine it is much better for us than fighting ourselves.   

Allahu Alam 

[Hani]

Member "KOS75" whatever reason drove you to write what you did above, you're banned and have no business on our forum. Go to ShiaChat and preach there.

[omar111]

At the death of every Imam, there was some division among shias about the succesors.If the Prophet gave a list of 12ve Imams there would be no blunders like nominating Ismail s/o jaffar as a successor.
Ismailis believe that Imam Jafar Sadiq deliberately created another line of Imams from Musa kadhim under Taqiyah, to provide cover for the real Imams of ismaelis.

[Link]

The problem with your argument is that we haven't established that "mutuwatir hadiths proved Ahlulbayt authority as well as done Quran" so we can't get to the second point until we get to the first point.

Well Farid doesn't want to debate that issue, he wants to take that for granted. If we take it for granted, then the second part proves the Wilyah of each of the 12 Imams would be proven.

wa salam

[Rationalist]

Now I've read a book with many authentic chains of Rasool designating the 12 Imams.  And we have many authentic hadiths of 12 successors. Even if they are not all authentic, the very fact Rasool would have designated a number as a guidance for divisions later, as well, as then clarified their names, is proven by reason.

Have you read Macisaac's response to the so called authentic ahadith of the 12? How it is a bidah which was crystallized later ? Also, are you okay with the fact that in these narrators there is takfir done against other descendants of Fatima who declared Imamate and had no clue of the 12 Calipah ahadith ? Next what is so strange is when the Hassani sadaat challenged the Hussani Sadaat none of the Imams have ever use the 12 Calipahs ahadith to convince the other side. Ever wonder why ? The reason is simple. There is no such thing as 12 Imams. Our religion is against fatalistic beliefs that justice can only be brought in by one Mahdi in the end of times. One top of that the romantic narrations linked to Mahdi are unrealistic.

[Link]

If Farid wants to debate me after Ramadan with my argument, I will. I am currently going under minor psychosis, so I need to stop debating for now.

The issue is if there is clear designation of Ahlulbayt position, then that logic follows. Then you be saying there is no clear designation of Ahlulbayt position, which is moving the goal posts (ie. taking for granted it is). Therefore, we would have to go back to the original proofs for Ahlulbayt in Quran and Mutuwatir hadiths.

wa salam

[Hadrami]

If Farid wants to debate me after Ramadan with my argument, I will. I am currently going under minor psychosis, so I need to stop debating for now.

The issue is if there is clear designation of Ahlulbayt position, then that logic follows. Then you be saying there is no clear designation of Ahlulbayt position, which is moving the goal posts (ie. taking for granted it is). Therefore, we would have to go back to the original proofs for Ahlulbayt in Quran and Mutuwatir hadiths.

wa salam

minor psychosis?? better stay away from this activities with that condition, but then again most shia would be in that condition to believe in imamate nonsense - http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/the-confusing-history-of-shia-imamate-and-mahdi/

[zichan]

Have you read Macisaac's response to the so called authentic ahadith of the 12?

Which response do you mean ? Any link ?