When we have mututawatir hadiths and Quran designating Ahlulbayt as authorities, the logic I showed of the designation of their number and their names also follows, so then the numerous authentic chains (near 20) a long side all the non-authenticated chains of the naming of the 12 of the Imams before they were all born with the rational showed, standing as a clear evidence a long side the designation of 12, and the nomination of Imams according to the twelve named. Yes a few hadiths give the impression that such clear evidence is not known, but we cannot leave certainty and well established proof, for uncertainty and unestablished khabir wahad.
A few points بارك الله فيك:
1. Where are these mutawaatir hadeeths? Do you have an article or a book you can reference that mentions these?
2. How do you authenticate these ahadeeth? Is it through Ilm ar-Rijaal or do you compare them to (your understanding of) the Qur’an?
3. It is not only that there are more ahadeeth that “give the impression that such clear evidence is not known”, the fact that:
a. The majority of Muslims didn’t know about it or at the very least rejected the concept completely.
b. The majority of Shi’as would split up each time an Imam would die.
4. What is certain is that we are supposed to follow the Qur’an and Sunnah and refer to them when we disagree with each other (such as for example what is found in 4:59). What is not certain is that we are supposed to follow 12 Imams and 12 Imams only. Therefore, based on the PROPHETIC instructions, we are to leave that which is doubtful for that which is certain, بارك الله فيك.
As for divisions despite this, we see in bani-Israel, Allah says he provided clear proofs regarding the affair, yet we see they divided. Often they disbelieved in Prophets despite them "sincerely' wanting to follow the "teachings" of Musa! And we see an example right from the start, where despite knowing Harun is a Prophet, they totally ignore his commands, and don't listen to him, but then start listening to Musa when he comes back.
Here is the problem though, the Jews that remained did NOT reject Musa عليه السلام and no one today from amongst the Jews denies the Prophethood of Haroon عليه السلام. Mistakes happen during the times of the Prophets from their followers, some from their sincere followers and some from the hypocrites in the community. However, what remains today is a consistent belief amongst the Jews over these fundamental things. It is unlike the Shi’a who have a fundamental different theology than regular Muslims. This comparing is quite weak أحسن الله إليك>
This is an entirely illogical phenomenon. Yes if people were all rational and were never illogical, and followed clear proofs, this argument would stand.
Yet here is the main problem, we believe your position is completely illogical. So the question is, who is following logic? Logic dictates that something as important as the third pillar of the Shahadah would be mentioned numerous times and explicitly like the first two parts of the Shahadah are, and yet it is not. Logic dictates that Allah would tell us to “follow Ahl al-Bayt” exclusively, and yet he tells us to follow the Muhajireen and the Ansar (9:100). Logic dictates that Allah would not leave us to be guided by Imams who supposedly were constantly in taqiyyah and would purposefully misguide people who ask them questions out of taqiyyah. Notice that you and I have a different take on logic. But then again so do I and Hani, Farid, etc. Yet when we disagree, we take things back to the Qur’an and Sunnah because those are the fundamentals we base our religion on. When its something fundamental to the religion, you’ll find that all Sunnis agree whether liberal, conservative, Salafi, Asha’ri, Sufi etc. Yet ask a simple question like “who do you love more, Muhammad or Ali?” and see the kind of responses you’ll get on a Shi’a forum.
Argument comparing the deviance of Christians and Jews regarding Jesus to deviance of Shia
In any rate, even if Majority of Shias did deviate, it can be that many of them weren't rational, they didn't properly and sincerely to arrive at the truth, but went with the flow of people.
Here is the major problem with your argument. One of the major “proofs” for Shi’as is that we need an Imam to guide us in the absence of the Prophet. Yet, we find Shi’as, both historically and in modern times, to be one of the most contradictory sects if not the most contradictory. While, of couse, every Shi’a sees himself (or his Marj3) as the true Shi’a, and everyone else is deviated, yet the question remains; how does he know this? Is through logic, or is he/she being guided directly by the Imam?
Which ever way you , you look at it, it doesn't make sense for me, for 1 to negate what is established in Quran and mutuwatir hadiths, negate what we know by Rasool, would of done with respect to designating their number for a guidance for later generations, and then there is no doubt he would on different occasion emphasize their names so that the nomination of Imams has a corresponding truth handed down from Rasool. Allah in his wisdom only allowed one sect with such claims (ie. number designated by Rasool along with their names), so in this way, has protected the identities of the Ahlulbayt in Quran.
Yet that’s not true, the number of Imams, even in twelver Shi’a is disputed. Some say it was 11 and some say 13, and some say 24!!! The fact that you only see one side, and don’t see the opposite, that all other Shi’a sects died out and that the reports were made up after the death of Hasan al-Askari; which makes more sense, or is more “logical” to me.
الله اهدنا لما تحبه وترضى
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June 19, 2015, 03:07:20 AM