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Challenged Issued to Shiachatters

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zichan

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2015, 01:37:35 PM »
@Farid i dont think Abu Hadi is the right choice to debate. I do not know whether he intentionally avoids the topic of the debate or if he simply do not understand your point. However its getting boring with the same lame arguments! Waste of time!

Furkan

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2015, 03:19:29 PM »
When i read this from Abu Hadi, i realised he is just another typical shia:

"As followers of the Jaafari Mathhab, we don't have Sahih books, we investigate each hadith individually, and the hadith stands or falls based on it's own merits, not which book it is in."

-_-
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Link

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2015, 05:17:21 PM »
The sublime thing to do would be to end the debate, and state, he will discuss the topic with me. I realize by the way that there is some Sahih hadiths of Shias that show serious problems with the issue of Nass, but it is as Imam Jaffar says "don't forsake certainty for doubt, don't follow something unclear to you rather then from something clear ". When we have mututawatir hadiths and Quran designating Ahlulbayt as authorities, the logic I showed of the designation of their number and their names also follows, so then the numerous authentic chains (near 20) a long side all the non-authenticated chains of the naming of the 12 of the Imams before they were all born with the rational showed, standing as a clear evidence a long side the designation of 12, and the nomination of Imams according to the twelve named. Yes a few hadiths give the impression that such clear evidence is not known, but we cannot leave certainty and well established proof, for uncertainty and unestablished khabir wahad.

As for divisions despite this, we see in bani-Israel, Allah says he provided clear proofs regarding the affair, yet we see they divided. Often they disbelieved in Prophets despite them "sincerely' wanting to follow the "teachings" of Musa! And we see an example right from the start, where despite knowing Harun is a Prophet, they totally ignore his commands, and don't listen to him, but then start listening to Musa when he comes back.

This is an entirely illogical phenomenon.   Yes if people were all rational and were never illogical, and followed clear proofs, this argument would stand.

But at the end of it, such arguments don't hold ground. Allah emphasizes that the people who thought Isa died had no knowledge of the issue. No matter how much something may appear to us in historical reports, sometimes the truth has to coincide with what is linked to God's affair of providing proofs.

For example, Isa was stated to be the one would rule (ie. along with Al-Mahdi) at the end times, if believers were told he would do this, then they would have to believe he would either live till this happens or God would spare him from death and return him when time is right. Now him taking him up is nothing some historians are going to write and emphasize on due to their disbeleif, so perhaps they begin to write about  how he died and news spread he is gone, and so they conduct a story about how he got killed.

The matter is such now this is what appears to the Jews and Christians, not that God deceived them by putting a human that exactly looks like him but that the truth became obscured to the news that was spreading about him and the lie formed, that people automatically assumed must of been true as he was no longer anywhere to be seen.

The same is true to me of some these issues, to historians, who think the names of the 12 Imams weren't already there, or there wasn't clear nomination by the Imams for each of their successor,  they will over emphasize on how most people became divided, even though, there wasn't even polls back then to know who did and who didn't believe, to get that idea. They seem a significant amount of people following a different Imam and then with no idea to the real numbers of who is following the true Imam or not, begin to say "majority of people".

In any rate, even if Majority of Shias did deviate, it can be that many of them weren't rational, they didn't properly and sincerely to arrive at the truth, but went with the flow of people.

Which ever way you , you look at it, it doesn't make sense for me, for 1 to negate what is established in Quran and mutuwatir hadiths, negate what we know by Rasool, would of done with respect to designating their number for a guidance for later generations, and then there is no doubt he would on different occasion emphasize their names so that the nomination of Imams has a corresponding truth handed down from Rasool. Allah in his wisdom only allowed one sect with such claims (ie. number designated by Rasool along with their names), so in this way, has protected the identities of the Ahlulbayt  in Quran.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 05:24:35 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2015, 08:35:28 PM »
@Link,

Those narrations naming the 12 Imams are all fabricated years after the fact. By the way, regarding this:

"When we have mututawatir hadiths and Quran designating Ahlulbayt as authorities"

Can you show me just ONE for the sake of curiosity?

You said:

"to negate what is established in Quran and mutuwatir hadiths"

Do you know that it's not even possible for any narration in your books to be Mutawatir? Or didn't you know this?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 08:37:01 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Khaled

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2015, 08:42:18 PM »
When we have mututawatir hadiths and Quran designating Ahlulbayt as authorities, the logic I showed of the designation of their number and their names also follows, so then the numerous authentic chains (near 20) a long side all the non-authenticated chains of the naming of the 12 of the Imams before they were all born with the rational showed, standing as a clear evidence a long side the designation of 12, and the nomination of Imams according to the twelve named. Yes a few hadiths give the impression that such clear evidence is not known, but we cannot leave certainty and well established proof, for uncertainty and unestablished khabir wahad.

A few points بارك الله فيك:
1.   Where are these mutawaatir hadeeths?  Do you have an article or a book you can reference that mentions these?
2.   How do you authenticate these ahadeeth?  Is it through Ilm ar-Rijaal or do you compare them to (your understanding of) the Qur’an?
3.   It is not only that there are more ahadeeth that “give the impression that such clear evidence is not known”, the fact that:
a.   The majority of Muslims didn’t know about it or at the very least rejected the concept completely.
b.   The majority of Shi’as would split up each time an Imam would die.
4.   What is certain is that we are supposed to follow the Qur’an and Sunnah and refer to them when we disagree with each other (such as for example what is found in 4:59).  What is not certain is that we are supposed to follow 12 Imams and 12 Imams only.  Therefore, based on the PROPHETIC instructions, we are to leave that which is doubtful for that which is certain, بارك الله فيك.

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As for divisions despite this, we see in bani-Israel, Allah says he provided clear proofs regarding the affair, yet we see they divided. Often they disbelieved in Prophets despite them "sincerely' wanting to follow the "teachings" of Musa! And we see an example right from the start, where despite knowing Harun is a Prophet, they totally ignore his commands, and don't listen to him, but then start listening to Musa when he comes back.

Here is the problem though, the Jews that remained did NOT reject Musa عليه السلام and no one today from amongst the Jews denies the Prophethood of Haroon عليه السلام.  Mistakes happen during the times of the Prophets from their followers, some from their sincere followers and some from the hypocrites in the community.  However, what remains today is a consistent belief amongst the Jews over these fundamental things.  It is unlike the Shi’a who have a fundamental different theology than regular Muslims.  This comparing is quite weak أحسن الله إليك>

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This is an entirely illogical phenomenon.   Yes if people were all rational and were never illogical, and followed clear proofs, this argument would stand.

Yet here is the main problem, we believe your position is completely illogical.  So the question is, who is following logic?  Logic dictates that something as important as the third pillar of the Shahadah would be mentioned numerous times and explicitly like the first two parts of the Shahadah are, and yet it is not.  Logic dictates that Allah would tell us to “follow Ahl al-Bayt” exclusively, and yet he tells us to follow the Muhajireen and the Ansar (9:100).  Logic dictates that Allah would not leave us to be guided by Imams who supposedly were constantly in taqiyyah and would purposefully misguide people who ask them questions out of taqiyyah.  Notice that you and I have a different take on logic.  But then again so do I and Hani, Farid, etc.  Yet when we disagree, we take things back to the Qur’an and Sunnah because those are the fundamentals we base our religion on.  When its something fundamental to the religion, you’ll find that all Sunnis agree whether liberal, conservative, Salafi, Asha’ri, Sufi etc.  Yet ask a simple question like “who do you love more, Muhammad or Ali?” and see the kind of responses you’ll get on a Shi’a forum.

Quote
Argument comparing the deviance of Christians and Jews regarding Jesus to deviance of Shia
Quote
In any rate, even if Majority of Shias did deviate, it can be that many of them weren't rational, they didn't properly and sincerely to arrive at the truth, but went with the flow of people.

Here is the major problem with your argument.  One of the major “proofs” for Shi’as is that we need an Imam to guide us in the absence of the Prophet.  Yet, we find Shi’as, both historically and in modern times, to be one of the most contradictory sects if not the most contradictory.  While, of couse, every Shi’a sees himself (or his Marj3) as the true Shi’a, and everyone else is deviated, yet the question remains; how does he know this?  Is through logic, or is he/she being guided directly by the Imam?

Quote
Which ever way you , you look at it, it doesn't make sense for me, for 1 to negate what is established in Quran and mutuwatir hadiths, negate what we know by Rasool, would of done with respect to designating their number for a guidance for later generations, and then there is no doubt he would on different occasion emphasize their names so that the nomination of Imams has a corresponding truth handed down from Rasool. Allah in his wisdom only allowed one sect with such claims (ie. number designated by Rasool along with their names), so in this way, has protected the identities of the Ahlulbayt  in Quran.

Yet that’s not true, the number of Imams, even in twelver Shi’a is disputed.  Some say it was 11 and some say 13, and some say 24!!!  The fact that you only see one side, and don’t see the opposite, that all other Shi’a sects died out and that the reports were made up after the death of Hasan al-Askari; which makes more sense, or is more “logical” to me.

الله اهدنا لما تحبه وترضى
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

omar111

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2015, 08:50:29 PM »
There are two proofs that the list of 12 Imams was fake and produced later by the Imamis

1)Division:Some division is expected in every group but this is strange that Shia divided at the death of every Imam in choosing the next Imam.If such a list existed,there would be no question of anyone else claiming the Imamat.
Imam Baqir and jafar wer challenged by Imam zaid and Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn al-Hasan al-Muthana ibn al-Hasan al-mujtaba ibn 'Ali ibnAbi Talib or Muhammad al-Nafs al-Zakiyya and two shia sects were formed.
Due to ambiguity that surrounds the issue of succession after Imam Sadiq, and the acceptance of the pivots of the Imamate theory of the Imamate of Abdullah al-Aftah, the Imamate Shiites, especially Mufaddal bin Umar Abu Basir and Yaqub al-Siraj, have tried to bring texts that establish the will of Imam Sadiq to his son Kadhim.
Hence the general masses of the Shiites at the time of Imam Kadhim have turned to Isa bin Zayd bin Ali ,and paid him allegiance secretly as the Imam in the year 156 A.H. while he was in Iraq. People from Ahwaz, Wasit, Makkah, Madinah and Tihamah came to pay him allegiance.
Death of Musa kadhim was even more confusing because Imami estabilished his Imamat by claiming that he was mehdi. Imam Ali bin Musa Rida was not recognized as the Imam by the majority of the Shiites, and even by the children of Imam Kadhim, and even by the revered wife of the Imam, Umm Ahmad

2)Ignorance.Many followers of Imam died without knowing the identity of next Imam,if there was a list,they would have been told. Zurarah bin A’yun, being one of the leading companions of both Imams Baqir and Sadiq died, without knowing the identity of the new Imam. He did send his son, Ubaidullah from Kufah to Madinah, to inquire about the new Imam, but was overtaken by death. At the time of his death, he placed the Quran on his chest and said: “ O Allah I testify to follow anyone whose Imamate was established by this Book`` Ikmal al-Din 75

Farid

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2015, 09:01:54 PM »
Guys, I know that Abu Hadi is not the right man for this debate.

I only blame the knowledgeable Shias that sat quietly and let him represent them. I wish guidance for Abu Hadi, for he seems sincere and confused.

Furkan

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2015, 09:18:16 PM »
I also was shocked when i saw that topic called  “who do you love more, Muhammad or Ali?” on SC. It clearly shows their deviation.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Link

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2015, 01:06:28 AM »
Can you show me just ONE for the sake of curiosity?

I am talking about what is established as Tawatur in Sunni sources like hadithal thaqalain with it's various verision along with Man Kunti Mawla Fa hadaa Aliyan Mawla which give context to each other in meaning, as well the Salawat upn the family of Mohammad being just like the Salawat upon the family of Ibrahim and the comparision.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Husayn

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2015, 01:32:28 AM »
Link, you should go and research who Ahlul Sunnah considers to be the 'itra of Rasul Allah (saw) and his family.

This is a big problem for Twelvers, you think we have the same weird view that only Fatima/Ali/Hassan/Husayn and 9 descendants from al-Husayn (ra) are his family and descendants.

We reject and heap scorn on such a view.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Ibn Fakhr Id Diin

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2015, 02:21:33 AM »
Can you show me just ONE for the sake of curiosity?

I am talking about what is established as Tawatur in Sunni sources like hadithal thaqalain with it's various verision along with Man Kunti Mawla Fa hadaa Aliyan Mawla which give context to each other in meaning, as well the Salawat upn the family of Mohammad being just like the Salawat upon the family of Ibrahim and the comparision.

"Man kunti"? "Fa hadaa Aliyan"?

You should learn basic sarf and nahw.

The Salawat upon the family of our Prophet doesn't proove the Shi'ah belief in 12 infallible imams.

If the Salawat was a proof for the Shi'ah belief in 12 infallible imams then the Salat Ul Ibrahimiyyah would (according to you) mean that there were infallible imams from the family of Prophet Ibrahim, and what is your proof for that?

Link

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2015, 04:08:28 AM »
If the Salawat was a proof for the Shi'ah belief in 12 infallible imams then the Salat Ul Ibrahimiyyah would (according to you) mean that there were infallible imams from the family of Prophet Ibrahim, and what is your proof for that?

Salam

Ibrahim was a Prophet and a Messenger. He then became an Imam after being given good news of Isaac and Yaqoub. He asked for it to be of his offspring because he saw the blessing and favor of it to be great. Regarding, Ibrahim, Isaac, and Yaqoub, Quran says "And we made the Imams who guide by our command...", and in another place says "Verily God chose Adam and Nuh and the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds". And in another place says that the mercy of God and his blessings on creation is upon them the Ahlulbayt (ie. Auli-Ibrahim). And else where says "so verily we gave the family of Ibrahim, the book and the wisdom, and we gave the a great authority".

Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub, and Yusuf were such that believers centered around then, God and his Angels, blessed them, and the believers benefit from their outward guidance as well as their spiritual inward guidance by God's command. They were blessed by having near station with God but also being the means of others coming to God and guiding others toward God, and they had the collective blessings on humanity. Sarah although believed by Jews to a Prophet, we know only men are Prophets but she was a chosen person, exalted person as well. When we defined Nubuwa, we define it to be a relationship of revelation to the people while Jews included Muhadaths (those spoken to by God and Angels), so Sarah would be that by English definition, but not by Islamic definition.

The similar blessing on Auli-Mohammad, the fact, we have to remember them in Salah, and the fact that true families of Prophets are exalted chosen ones, who according to the words of Allah to Nuh do not include those who conduct is other then righteous, shows auli-Mohammad are a similar chosen family.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 04:15:41 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2015, 04:13:11 AM »
Link, you should go and research who Ahlul Sunnah considers to be the 'itra of Rasul Allah (saw) and his family.

This is a big problem for Twelvers, you think we have the same weird view that only Fatima/Ali/Hassan/Husayn and 9 descendants from al-Husayn (ra) are his family and descendants.

We reject and heap scorn on such a view.

I know you don't have the same view of Auli-Mohammad as us, but the Quran makes a distinction between one type of family of Prophets with another, for example, he states the unjust disbelieving wife of Lut was part of Auli-Lut but we read else where to Nuh, that people who do other then righteous deeds actions are not included in family of Prophets. And we read else where the family of Ibrahim was chosen, and what was meant by chosen is the same way Adam and Nuh, and Mariam was chosen as given by the context of the verses. And we read the family of Ibrahim were given the book and wisdom, and were given a great authority.

The fact the Prophet emphasized his family as his legacy ALONGSIDE Quran, and paired them up as emphasizing as to what he is leaving us, to me, leaves no doubt, that he is talking about a chosen family concept that Quran devoted verses to emphasize on.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2015, 04:39:55 AM »
Quote
Have you read Macisaac's response to the so called authentic ahadith of the 12?

Which response do you mean ? Any link ?


http://www.tashayyu.org/articles/the-alteration-and-reorientation-of-text-in-twelver-shi-ism

Husayn

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2015, 06:07:45 AM »
I know you don't have the same view of Auli-Mohammad as us, but the Quran makes a distinction between one type of family of Prophets with another, for example, he states the unjust disbelieving wife of Lut was part of Auli-Lut but we read else where to Nuh, that people who do other then righteous deeds actions are not included in family of Prophets. And we read else where the family of Ibrahim was chosen, and what was meant by chosen is the same way Adam and Nuh, and Mariam was chosen as given by the context of the verses. And we read the family of Ibrahim were given the book and wisdom, and were given a great authority.

The fact the Prophet emphasized his family as his legacy ALONGSIDE Quran, and paired them up as emphasizing as to what he is leaving us, to me, leaves no doubt, that he is talking about a chosen family concept that Quran devoted verses to emphasize on.

Indeed, the 'itra does not include the kaffir relatives of the Prophet (saw).
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Husayn

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2015, 06:10:28 AM »
If the Salawat was a proof for the Shi'ah belief in 12 infallible imams then the Salat Ul Ibrahimiyyah would (according to you) mean that there were infallible imams from the family of Prophet Ibrahim, and what is your proof for that?

Salam

Ibrahim was a Prophet and a Messenger. He then became an Imam after being given good news of Isaac and Yaqoub. He asked for it to be of his offspring because he saw the blessing and favor of it to be great. Regarding, Ibrahim, Isaac, and Yaqoub, Quran says "And we made the Imams who guide by our command...", and in another place says "Verily God chose Adam and Nuh and the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds". And in another place says that the mercy of God and his blessings on creation is upon them the Ahlulbayt (ie. Auli-Ibrahim). And else where says "so verily we gave the family of Ibrahim, the book and the wisdom, and we gave the a great authority".

Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub, and Yusuf were such that believers centered around then, God and his Angels, blessed them, and the believers benefit from their outward guidance as well as their spiritual inward guidance by God's command. They were blessed by having near station with God but also being the means of others coming to God and guiding others toward God, and they had the collective blessings on humanity. Sarah although believed by Jews to a Prophet, we know only men are Prophets but she was a chosen person, exalted person as well. When we defined Nubuwa, we define it to be a relationship of revelation to the people while Jews included Muhadaths (those spoken to by God and Angels), so Sarah would be that by English definition, but not by Islamic definition.

The similar blessing on Auli-Mohammad, the fact, we have to remember them in Salah, and the fact that true families of Prophets are exalted chosen ones, who according to the words of Allah to Nuh do not include those who conduct is other then righteous, shows auli-Mohammad are a similar chosen family.

Our salawaat does not include:

1. Unjust offspring of Ibrahim (as).

2. Unjust offspring of Rasul Allah (saw).

There is no need to complicate things the way you do, Islam isn't a religion of codes and hidden messages.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Link

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2015, 06:29:21 AM »
Normal people who aren't unjust aren't people who would be a long side Quran as his legacy. The legacy of being put a long side Quran suggests it's people who God wants us to follow like the Quran and we see in Quran a constant theme about the people God makes the means toward him to be of the best and elite. Nor are normal good people of offspring of Ibrahim or Mohammad are chosen above the worlds like Adam and Nuh are, as suggest Auli-Ibrahim is. The verses explaining Auli-Imran to being a chosen person like Mariam, and then after Mariam Isa, shows, that it's not just normal good people in these type of families.

The Salawatal Auli-Ibrahim suggests in the same way Ibrahim was blessed, the family of Ibrahim was blessed. And Mohammad and the family of Mohammad are blessed in a similar way Ibrahim is blessed as well as the family of Ibrahim.

If Allah singled out the good offspring of Mohammad for Salawat, and made it incumbent to bless them with him, but other good people are excluded, this shows a corruption on the side of Islam.

However, if the family of Mohammad are being blessed because they are the best people among all people to blessed or that God wants us to recognize all blessings on the Prophet go upon them, and he wants us to be attached to them like the Prophet and remember a guiding role position they have with this nation, then this is not corruption but has an exalted wisdom.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 06:44:41 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Husayn

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2015, 07:11:53 AM »
Some parts of your analysis are correct, other parts are convoluted nonsense (with all due respect).

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Normal people who aren't unjust aren't people who would be a long side Quran as his legacy.

You are complicating the issue.

Hadith ath-Thaqalayn isn't about his legacy, it's about the things that he is leaving behind that are dear to him. No doubt the Qur'an is one of these, and no doubt his family members and descendants are another.

Quote
The Salawatal Auli-Ibrahim suggests in the same way Ibrahim was blessed, the family of Ibrahim was blessed.

Not at all - this would imply that all of Ibrahim (as)'s family were made Prophets, which is false. You are just reaching now.

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If Allah singled out the good offspring of Mohammad for Salawat, and made it incumbent to bless them with him, but other good people are excluded, this shows a corruption on the side of Islam.

However, if the family of Mohammad are being blessed because they are the best people among all people to blessed or that God wants us to recognize all blessings on the Prophet go upon them, and he wants us to be attached to them like the Prophet and remember a guiding role position they have with this nation, then this is not corruption but has an exalted wisdom.

No doubt Rasul Allah (swt) is singled out with privileges that others are not, and one of those privileges is that we bless his pious relatives and descendants.

This is because of Rasul Allah's (saw) status in the eyes of Allah (swt), and not because of the status of his 'itra.

His 'itra are not better than other Muslims simply by virtue of their relation to him. For example Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman are better than every single one of his 'itra, while not being related to him by blood.

His 'itra are more noble in lineage, and that is all.

-----

I will not make any further responses in this thread, it has been derailed enough.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Hani

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2015, 09:49:48 AM »
Husayn, don't worry about derailing this thread, we can continue discussing here. Besides, Farid's thing is on SC now.

As for bro Link, you're talking about Thaqalayn and Ghadir but you misunderstand both, neither has anything even remotely related to leadership and authority.

We have articles on our website discussing Thaqalayn, Ghadir and the verse of Ibrahim's (as) appointment, would you like me to show you so that you may be up to date?

Verse of Imamah:
http://twelvershia.net/2013/08/15/verse-of-imamat-ibrahim-shia-understanding-of-oppressors-is-it-qati-or-dhanni/

Hadith al-Thaqalayn:
http://twelvershia.net/2013/10/26/detailed-research-on-the-texts-and-chains-of-al-thaqalayn/

Ghadir is briefly discussed here:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/11/01/rasul-allah-saw-and-the-divine-order-of-imamah/

& here:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/11/13/rasul-allah-saw-and-the-future-of-the-ummah/

As for those texts for the appointment of the 12, listen to my audio book here:
http://twelvershia.net/2015/03/02/audio-book-al-imamah-wal-nass/
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 09:58:19 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Challenged Issued to Shiachatters
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2015, 11:50:51 AM »
Salam

Ok. I will not argue further. Just leaving last comment. I do believe with exception of Sarah, all of the family of Ibrahim were Prophets and Imams. They had both. The salawatil Ibrahimi refers to the blessings they had on their souls, and the guidance in guiding others they receive a certain honor and beauty and glory and majesty specially with regards to Imammate and a with high station of intercession that becomes a means of honor for them as well. I believe the same type of blessings, all blessings on creations, each member of the family of Ibrahim had. I believe this is obvious in Suratal Hud, I believe it's obvious in the Salawat Auli-Ibrahim had the same blessings upon Ibrahim, and I believe Mohammad and the family of Mohammad are similarly blessed with all blessings in creation, and the blessings of being spiritual Guides and means to Allah, are there, not receiving a revelation to be delivered to the people didn't take away these type of blessings away from their souls. I believe Mohammad is similarly blessed as Auli-Ibrahim, not just Ibrahim, and this is obvious by the Salawat. And Auli-Mohammad is simiarly blessed as Ibrahim, and not just auli-Ibrahim, and this is obvious by the Salawat.

As for thaqalain, to me it's obvious it's his legacy by emphasizing their weightiness with Quran, I will not debate further.

Ma'asalama
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 11:54:14 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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