Debate Issued to Shiachatters (2)

[Farid]

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030701-debate-invitation/#entry2811471

Discuss.

Maybe someone else will step up this time.

[Link]

Why don't you debate me after Ramadan?

[Hani]

Ameen stepped forward LoooL!!!

[Hani]

The SC threads prove WHY debating on our "Nasibi" forum is MUCH BETTER, we don't delay posts and approve them only after we check their content, that's a form of censorship, we don't allow people to interfere in a 1 on 1 debate whereas they're saying they won't stop this.

[MuslimK]

They don't want to debate 1 on 1 because truth will be known much better - they want it open so that their members derail the discussion with their copy-pastes and off-topic comments.

[Furkan]

lol AMEEN hahahahhahah, the only thing he will do is put 3 question marks after every sentence.

[Rationalist]

Lol! Qaim says you are not sincere. This is the same brother who said Taqiyyah can be used in non-death situations to cover up the real teaching of the 12er Shia madhab. Also, this brother Qaim when he gave dawah to another brother I know, he told him that the 12 Calipahs ahadith is a mutawatir.

Let's also not forget when he joined kr-hcy he used a Kfc logo. Does this look like sincerity ?

[Rationalist]

Here is Darth Vader's ironic comment.

This is a perfectly natural human practice, hiding the truth when knowing it, and that is why Quran warns of it multiple times.
 

But the Quran never talks about the 12 Imams. On the contrary we are Kaffirs  or monafiqs for not accepting the dawah of fallible 12ers.

[Furkan]

Excuses,

Excuses everywhere.

I suggest Al Hassan of TS / Mujtaba on SC steps up

[Sheikh]

I suggest Al Hassan of TS / Mujtaba on SC steps up

I second this.  I respect this brother a great deal and I think his level is closer to that of Farid. This would be a debate worth reading, inshallah.

[Hani]

The second debate is happening here it seems:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030721-circular-reasoning-of-twelvers/page-2

To easily refute al-Hasan's argument, he says that we refute their interpretation of the Hadith of the 12 Imams based on our "Sunni understanding" of Imamah.

He writes:

((In summary, the crux of the article's argument is that it tries to disprove the idea that the Hadith of the 12 caliphs cannot be used to refer to the 12 Aimmah of the Twelver Shi'a. The reasoning and arguments used is based on the Sunni understanding of Khilafah, that is - one of the attributes of the Khalif is to have a political role in governing affairs of the Islamic state and since all of the Imams with the exception of 'Ali did not possess this role then the Hadith cannot refer to them.))

He further writes:

((such reasoning is not objective and cannot be used since it's based on the subjective Sunni understanding of the attributes of the Khalif that is defined within Sunnism))

Truth is, this is incorrect, we refute their interpretation not using the "Sunni understanding" but rather the understanding of the Arabs at the time. For the Arabs at the time, leadership (Imamah) did not mean what the Twelvers define Imamah to be. For the Arabs, leadership had nothing to do with a certain man's progeny aside from the rest of his tribe, nor that the leader is infallible, nor that a man has to be directly connected to god so that he may lead, nor that the leader has absolute religious authority because they had priests and men of religion to take care of that aspect (Those who took care of the Ka`bah).

Arabs understood Imamah the way we understand it, they didn't understand the unique Shiite definition of Imamah, heck some tribes asked the Prophet (saw) to grant them leadership after his death and in return they'll believe in his message but he refused, in other words they had no clue about the Shiite version of Imamah.

He writes:

((Furthermore, the Khalif according to our understanding is the inheritor of the prophet's authority on religious matters and a source of guidance for the people of his time. Whether or not he gains access to political authority does not negate his position that as the prophet's Khalifah on earth and that the people can refer back to him for guidance.))

So al-Hasan's argument falls when it is clear that no Arab in Jahiliyyah shares their view, and we know that this narration was aimed at the Arabs and it addressed the Arabs of that time.

When the Prophet (saw) says that after him Islam will be fortified and strong during the rule of twelve chiefs, no Arab will understand what al-Hasan wrote above. Rather, they will think of what resembles a tribal leader.

[Hani]

Tomorrow back to work, no more participation,

[Furkan]

Don't worry, everyone has to work ;p

[Furkan]

BTW: guys do you see the result of having an open topic at SC? It becomes a mess.

[Aba AbdAllah]

Haydar Husayn says:

Ok, so here we have the assumption that we should expect to find the names of the Imams in the Qur'an. Why should that be so? Do we ever find in the Qur'an any prophet or divinely appointed personality making a claim to authority based on explicit scriptural evidence? The only one I'm aware of that would even come close is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who the Qur'an claims is referenced in previous scriptures.

It should be, because they are the ones this Ummah(nation) is supposed to believe in and follow. This is why the Prophet this Ummah was supposed to believe in and follow was mentioned by name. Whereas, most of the Prophets of past weren't mentioned by name, because there was no need for this Ummah to know their identity inorder to believe and follow them. We just believe that they were the prophets sent to previous nations. Hence quran just asks us to believe in the previous Prophets. But unfortunately for the shias neither the Quran names the supposed Imams to be believed in and followed nor, even asks to believe in Imams after Muhammad(saw).

You then want us to prove things about our sect from your sources, using this biased system, which you seem to think is objective just because it was created with great care and detail. How is that going to work?

Thats ironic, you judged our system as biased, but you still want us to believe in narrations gathered by the followers of the same system, from which you try to prove your belief. If those who made the system and follow it were biased(cause the system would be biased if it was made by biased people) then how come you find the many evidences in their books which you believe are in your support?

What was easy for those supposed biased people:
To exclude all those reports which they found were not in favour of their belief and just put an end to misconceptions that those reports could raise. Or include them in their books , so as to be judge by a biased system, giving an open opportunity to the opponents to misuse those reports, ignoring the system to verify those reports?

[Hadrami]

@Hani, please add quote block for each paragraph you're refuting for easier reading

[Hadrami]

Haydar Husayn says:

Ok, so here we have the assumption that we should expect to find the names of the Imams in the Qur'an. Why should that be so? Do we ever find in the Qur'an any prophet or divinely appointed personality making a claim to authority based on explicit scriptural evidence? The only one I'm aware of that would even come close is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who the Qur'an claims is referenced in previous scriptures.

It should be, because they are the ones this Ummah(nation) is supposed to believe in and follow. This is why the Prophet this Ummah was supposed to believe in and follow was mentioned by name. Whereas, most of the Prophets of past weren't mentioned by name, because there was no need for this Ummah to know their identity inorder to believe and follow them. We just believe that they were the prophets sent to previous nations. Hence quran just asks us to believe in the previous Prophets. But unfortunately for the shias neither the Quran names the supposed Imams to be believed in and followed nor, even asks to believe in Imams after Muhammad(saw).

That's a good point bro, its easier for us to believe & follow them when their names is clearly mentioned. Isa AS mentioned who's next so no wonder the Jews, Christians were waiting for him. It's strange that we are suppose to believe in 12 and yet not even 1 name can be found in al-Qur'an when shia says believing in them is the difference between iman & kufr. But say, even when 1 name is mentioned the 12ers still can't claim they are upon the truth compare to other shia sects.

[Furkan]

It's in the quran of Fatima dude, with tafsir and tawil etc you forgot ? lol

A fundamental creed of shiism is absent from Quran and no way to prove it except using qiyas (weird), but it looks like this qiyas isn't possible since the earlier generations of prophet's and their followers had different situations and conditions etc.

[Al Dukhan]

Assalaamu alaikum. ameen is jumping there on sc forum with question marks ! And challenging farid there. If some one can take a look there !
Shukran.

[Furkan]

He doesn't debate. He just keeps beating around the Bush and always rejects every proof yiu show even if you show over 30 opinions of their scholars on the age of Aisha (ra) when she married ( around 9) or other things which are common in books of Shia but uncommon to Shia laymen.