Debate on Ghadeer between Sunni & Shia

[Hani]

al-Salamu `Aleykum,


The brothers may Allah reward them nominated me to debate the Shia of "ShiaChat" on the topic of Ghadeer, to be more precise to determine the answer to this question:


IS THE HADITH OF GHADEER A DECLARATION OF THE LEADERSHIP OF `ALI?


OR


WAS `ALI APPOINTED AS SUCCESSOR AND LEADER BY MUHAMMAD (saw) AT GHADEER?


We opened the topic on ShiaChat here:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235025239-debate-on-ghadeer-invitation-to-shia/


And in this thread we'll try to negotiate and reason with the Shia in order to make this debate happen.

[Hani]

First Shia post was by "PureEthics", he said:

Oh boy, here they come again -___- oh but wait the "venue" LOL is in their site, even though this site is available and moderated much better, and they want to debate us? O_o

I disagree that SC is better moderated, but to you is your opinion.


We've invited you to debate on our forum, you are our guests, it is very rude to refuse an invitation bro.

[Hani]

Second Shia posted is called "S.M.H.A." he asks many questions that are not exactly relevant to the event of Ghadeer, he asks:

1 ) Are you a Muslims (Y/N)
2) Four school of sunni thoughts: Which one- if none of the four - which one-name will suffice.
3) Are you a Quranist?(Y/N)
 
4) Is Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp): Infallible (no error/no sin/no mistake): (Y/N)
      If no, explain your understanding.
 
5) Was the Quran compiled during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp): (Y/N)
    5a) If No why not and when was it compiled and by whom?
 
6) Did the Prophet Muhammad(pbhahp) announce a successor:(Y/N)
  6a) If no, did he gave direction as to which method should be used to select one:(Y/N)
   If 6a is yes, which method.

We answer:


1) Yes.
2) Shafi`i.
3) No.


This is as far as personal information about me is concerned and I have written it for your convenience, as for the rest it is all of topic.


Our discuss is with regards to Ghadeer, are the words uttered at Ghadeer a declaration of `Ali's leadership or not? This is answered in the debate not here.

[Hani]

Shia member "mesbah" says:

Salaam
This is an invitation to all sunnis (whether knowledgeable or not) to debate me on the topic of saqifa.
Chill out!

This is not your thread then since you're talking about something completely different, go open a thread on any Sunni forum you like and invite them.

[Hani]

S.M.H.A. Says:

Here is a suggestion, you or Br. Hani may be concerned with fews things. Why don’t you request to have the debate moderated here, you or he can suggest a topic- more knowledgeable members might take him or you on the offer, restrict it to the member who accepted the debate so it don’t get too messy by everyone contributing to it, agree on a set of rule to govern the debate.

But we invited you to our website, this is like someone inviting you into his house, it's quite rude to refuse.


As for rules, any academic person knows the rules of a good debate, my rule is for the opponent to fear Allah, your understanding is enough.

[Hani]

"skamran110" Said:

Why do not you open a thread here and ask br hani to join it?
Why some one should go to nasibi website? I do not understand your intentions br.
 
Regards

We're not Nasibi, where'd you see us showing hatred for Bani Hashim? And if you think we're "Nasibi" why are you calling me "Br Hani" I shouldn't be your brother if I am a Nasibi right? Or are your brothers Nawasib?

[Hani]

Shia member "power" says:

Sunnis have a serious problem with justifying their own concept of "RIGHTLY GUIDED CALIPHS" How the hell are they going to refute Ghadeer?

Accept our invitation for a discussion on Hadith al-Ghadeer then you'll find out how InshaAllah.

[Hani]

Fearful Shia member "PureEthics" says:

LOL You must be crazy to think we will go to another website (wahabi) just to check the guys comments. If he is lazy enough to request a debate and make us go on his website to check his comments, and discuss the debate there, then the debate all ready is pointless and will be pointless.

We sense a lot of fear in your replies always bro "PureEthics", this is only an internet forum, we already have Shia members, no one is going to eat you.


Is clicking on an internet link really this hard? Or is it fear?

[Hadrami]

First Shia post was by "PureEthics", he said:

Oh boy, here they come again -___- oh but wait the "venue" LOL is in their site, even though this site is available and moderated much better, and they want to debate us? O_o

I disagree that SC is better moderated, but to you is your opinion.


We've invited you to debate on our forum, you are our guests, it is very rude to refuse an invitation bro.

Better moderated? I think this Pureguy meant if shia cant answer at least we moderate (aka ban) this sunni. Thats what it means. A shia insulted khalifa only got his comment edited while a sunni questioned why an ayatulla cant recite properly got banned straight away. That's what this shia mean when he said "moderated much better".

It just show how reluctant this Pureguy is for an open uncensored debate

[Hani]

SHia member "Ratohnhaketon" says that we can do the following things instead of debating Ghadeer:

- Read Qur'an
- Read a book
- Watch a movie
- Spend time with family
- Pray, make dua, meditate
- Watch paint dry
- Etc.

Aha, okay then go watch a movie and stop posting in the thread as you're clearly not qualified, I'd refuse to debate you even if you accepted.

[Hani]

Shia member "syed_shia" says:

I would be happy to do this with the following conditions
 
-it has to be in this forum.

Okay how about you write on your forum and we write on our forum? We'll have two threads, each on a forum, you write there and I'll write here.


I accept if you do.
 

[Hani]

Shia member insearchoflight says:

First sign of why someone shouldn't engage with a person who's obstinate to even not agree to venue, sends messengers to invite, teaches internet is just a click but practices not, fears preconditions by calling them off topic and projects rejections as fears to intimidate. Nice try!

I tend to think that the fearful ones are usually not those who challenge others to debates, rather those who'd rather watch paint dry in their bedrooms then step up and debate. Also you're the ones who do not agree to the venue not me.


I already agreed that I can post here and you can post there, so half of the debate is here and the other half is on SC.

[Hani]

SHia member says in post #23:

See the list I made for better things to do than to get offended that Shias or anyone else don't want to waste their time to 'challenges' as though this nothing more than a crusade against this forum or the people in it. The man is rude anyway, trying to provoke people by quoting them on the opposing forum rather than simply asking questions here. This isn't how Muslims should act nor debate rendering the debate useless to anyone who engages in it except to satisfy the intellectually cannibalistic urges of the members of that forum that wish turn Islam into a football match.

Ah sorry I'm rude!? That's your weakest excuse yet, we have been most polite dear. If you want rudeness read the comments on ShiaChat, such as:


"no need to feed the trolls."


"help him dare to register"


"Watch paint dry"


"LOL You must be crazy to think we will go to another website (wahabi)"


"How the hell are they going to refute Ghadeer?"


And many more,


This is rude my brother, my friendly invitation is not rude.

[Hani]

We decided not to waste too much time, we've already presented a middle solution, no reply until this moment, so we say:


THE DEBATE CHALLENGE WILL EXPIRE IN 48 HOURS

[Hani]

A Shi`ee called mesbah asked these questions which are off topic and have nothing to do with the thread and Saqifah altogether, questions that have been refuted so many times while he brought nothing new to the mix.



What makes saqifa legitimate?


What makes any gathering legitimate, are you saying we're not allowed to gather and discuss matters of common concern with fellow Muslims?


A group of elites discussed a matter, the majority later agreed and obeyed their decision without any form of Fitnah, may Allah reward them.


Why everyone rushed to it? Why did they leave the body of their beloved Prophet (s)?


Not everyone rushed to it, only a few folks rushed to it, you can count them on the fingers of your hands. It's a good thing they rushed to it, otherwise a Fitnah would have taken place and the Muslims would have been split between those who gave Bay`ah to the Ansar and those who gave Bay`ah to the Mouhajiroun.


So may Allah reward them again.


Why some sahaba including Amir al-Mu'minin refused to give allegiance?


He did give allegiance, whether you want to believe before or after six month is your own issue but the end result is the same.


As for reasons he did not participate much in the first months, they are


Main reason: Banu Hashim were not consulted and they thought they had a right to it by means of nearness to Rasul-Allah (saw).


Secondary reason: The disagreement on the interpretation of the Prophet's (saw) words regarding inheritance.


Why the second caliph stoped Prophet (s) from writing his final will which would have saved the Umma from Misguidance?


His "will"? what "will" is this? No one said it was a "will".


As for WHY, Well because the Prophet (saw) was sick and in pain, so it is better if he does so when his condition is better after some rest.


Why some people refused to obey the Prophet (s) and join the army of Usama?


I thought the believers made sure that Usama's army was dispatched and they did what they were ordered.


Why the second caliph threatened people not to spread the news of the death of the Prophet (s)


Because he was in a state of shock and disbelief.


NOTE: I will not bother to go further than this, as I said do NOT attempt to change the topic at hand, that is really unprofessional.

[Hani]

SC member mahdi servant.01 says:

Very funny! you work as a secretory for @Hani??
Isn't it you except with other name ?

So either he is my secretary or he's me?


Think harder maybe there's some other obvious possibilities bro.

[Hani]

D3v1L says:

Abdul : Are you Hani's servant? or do both of you share a delusion.
 
If Hani wants to debate, come here, register and debate. This is the internet, not the land of kings and emissaries.
 
The debate expired when you opened the thread.

Rather your pride expired when the thread was opened.

As for brother Abul Hussain Hassani from SC, He is my Mawla!

[Hani]

As we said, the challenge will expire the day after tomorrow, so make sure whatever member you get before then has some real solid knowledge of Arabic as he'll need it.

[Ebn Hussein]

Unbelievable how scared they are. The Kha2ef, pardon I mean Qa'im dude says we are trolling! Dude, this website is already one of the number one sources for every Sunni who wants to demolish your sect (and it's getting bigger every day, check google). Hani invited them to debate and they say let's debate on Shiachat! Well Hani asked first and invited you, he is brave enough to debate you on a topic which you claim is the most clearest Shia proof for the Imamah (read Khurafa) of of their first infallible i.e. it should be the easiest task for them lot to refute any Sunni on this topic ... of course they know it is not easy and any knowledgable Sunni can disprove their whole fairy tales and distortion of the Ghadir event, hence they try their best to avoid it (watch Arab channels how Shia scholars run away from debates, it's like them having a marathon).

The other dude, BatiniEthics calls this forum a Wahhabi one. Rafidis call every Sunni who is able to refute their religion a Nasibi and Wahhabi, nothing new here. Then there is another one who thinks he is very smart and asks why they shall debate on a Nasibi forum. It's like us being invited by the Shias first and then we act as scared as them and ask why shall we debate on a Rafidi Majoosi forum. These are nothing but lame excuses to find a way to avoid a debate. Come on, is there no brave Shia amongst you? Can't you destroy Sunnism on their forums by proving your Rafidi narrative of Ghadir to be true? Is it so hard? This forum already proved that it can host a debate, nobody interfers in the thread it's just between the debater of your choice and our debater.

[Taha]

even though this site is available and moderated much better, and they want to debate us

ShiaChat is the worst moderated forum I've seen. It used to be slightly better but it never was great. It all went downhill when Muhammed Ali person became moderator. He is the worst. I thought it would improve when Haydar Husayn & Qa'im became moderators but no improvement yet ... ShiaChat has a problem of selectively implementing rules. What is ok for one person is against the rules for the next.