Debate on Ghadeer between Sunni & Shia

[Ebn Hussein]

^Now they will accuse you of being a:

"Wahhabi-Salafi-Nasibi-Yazidi-Marwani-Bakri-Omari-Unicorn-boogeyman" etc.

[Taha]

Wahhabi-Salafi-Nasibi-Yazidi-Marwani-Bakri-Omari-Unicorn-boogeyman? 

Well, I can't be one of the first seven, but unicorn boogeyman sounds exciting.

[Hani]

A Shia called Pokemon said in post #36:

The problem with all of this is, of course, he will only take material from this thread he can use to make Shias look bad as in feed the prejudice present among pseudo-scholar Sunnis and their followers and cheerleaders who are more preoccupied with the activities of other Muslims than with the list I made which the brother scoffed at, as though reading Qur'an or watching a documentary etc. were not meaningful activities. He claims if I don't have hours, days, or weeks to 'debate' him, therefore I shouldn't comment on this thread, this illogical point is enough to see why debate is nonsense, having a few minutes to comment on one thread doesn't translate to having hours to sit down for this debate and to say I cannot comment on the problems with this debate is unreasonable as well.

It is especially troublesome considering they openly mock Shias on a regular basis in their threads. Why would anyone engage them? I should remind the members we also should not laugh at them: "O you who believe! let not (one) people laugh at (another) people perchance they may be better than they, nor let women (laugh) at (other) women, perchance they may be better than they; and do not find fault with your own people nor call one another by nicknames; evil is a bad name after faith, and whoever does not turn, these it is that are the unjust." (49:11)

[/size]
Yet you keep bumping the thread which makes you look bad...As for your contribution which you claim is meaningful, maybe you forgot that it contains "watching movies" (which you placed before prayer) and "watching paint dry"...


So either accept our challenge or take your own meaningful advice and look at a wall, in your case the mirror.

Then you say that "Shia are often mocked" on our forum and thus we are not worth the time and the attention, I challenge you to count the number of times the Shia were mocked in here VS the number of times the Sunnies were mocked on ShiaChat, where your likes thrive..

[Taha]

Then you say that "Shia are often mocked" on our forum and thus we are not worth the time and the attention, I challenge you to count the number of times the Shia were mocked in here VS the number of times the Sunnies were mocked on ShiaChat, where your likes thrive..

This is true.  One of the rules on SC is against cursing the first 3 and the wives.  So people can't say, for example, "bar `Umar la`nat beshumar".  However, they do try to humiliate him as much as they can.  To me it is double standards.  Taqiyyah is not to always be used.  I have no problem talking about cursing, tahrif, muta, etc.  It's very dishonest to disallow cursing somebody but to allow people to humiliate and speak disparagingly and sarcastically of him.  Another example of how SC is badly moderated-- some is allowed and some isn't.  They need to make up their minds and moderate evenly.  What is against the rules for one person should be against the rules for all.  And either allow cursing or don't-- this middle ground is stupid.

[Taha]

The other problem with debating there is the brother doesn't read properly he acts as though I only addressed their forum in terms of the mocking that goes on in these debates, which is a childish excuse anyway I don't recall other people doing something suddenly allows you to commit wrongdoing. He also acts as though my list was in a specific order, there was no order order would need numbers, nitpicking. He also claims this thread makes Shias look bad, no, individuals make themselves look bad, it is you and your people who attempt to paint broad pictures much like some Christians I have met when they do so for Muslims as a whole.

Actually, most of us Shias are very good at this type of thing too.  A Sunni brings up the issue of tahrif and the Shia response is "look at all these Sunni scholars that believed it too!"  The same with many other issues.  So yes, when Shias mock everything Sunnis do and say, it does somewhat justify their doing the same back to us.  We should stop our bad behavior before trying to stop others from theirs.

As to your list, he was pointing out that you thought it was a great contribution and how silly he thought it was.  The point of the order was only mentioned as an afterthought.

I'm sure Hani can speak for himself (lest someone accuse me, a Shia, of being his secretary too. 

[Hani]

Mr. Respectable Loving Ratohnhaketon,


Please I beg of you, either accept or leave us adults to figure out our own business, we normally don't waste time on your likes.

[Hani]

@Abu Tufayl,


You said:

This is a "debate challenge" coming from the people whom amongst them are those who would deny Imam `Ali [as]'s right even if "mawla" meant master with their excuse being "it didn't say khalifa." What silly people they are...

You can't even prove it means Master, come and debate.

[Hani]

@Jaabir ibn Hayyan,


You do realize that there is no such evidence of "Jabir ibn Hayyan" being even remotely related to your Imams, read a refutation on this:
http://www.dd-sunnah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=169806


You can keep believing in your myths and calling other people "kids", it won't harm us one bit.

As for this "challenge" these clowns have set to expire tomorrow (first time hearing a debate challenge having an expiry date attached to it like food or something), expect them to plan a parade and start celebrating their "victory" over the "majoos/rawafidh/mushrikeen" in the next few days.

The expiration is a way to get you folks to step up and debate, not to sleep and let the thread die out. As for parading, I'm sure you remember our challenge to you on Tahreef-ul-Qur'an, none of you guys accepted, you closed the thread, no one celebrated...
http://forum.twelvershia.net/quran-tafseer/debate-on-tahrif-al-quran-between-shia-sunni/30/


Where do you see us celebrating ya myth-believer?

By the way, these clowns got fed-up with the old terrorist-run website they used to frequent because it kept going down, now they've started a new forum. Just goes to show how desperate they are.

So if we get bothered by technical issues related to web servers we become clowns? No wonder you believe in `Ali's (ra) Imamah, you're not intelligent.

[Hani]

Ameen (who could be Lebanese) says:

Oooh! A challenge. Sounds exciting. Must have missed out on quite a bit. Why don't you just start off from the very begining. Did the Prophet (pbuh) name his successor??? Did he appoint anyone to govern after him??? If yes, then who??? If no, then did the Prophet (pbuh) give any indication of how the Muslims should be governed and how affairs of the Muslims should be handled after him???

Dear brother, I don't want to debate any of the matters you mentioned above, my topic is VERY limited, Hadith-ul-Ghadeer, and specifically "Man Kuntu Mawlahu", either this is an evidence for the appointment of `Ali (ra) and the Shia should keep using it, OR IT ISN'T EVIDENCE.


Of course based on the Manhaj of the scholars of Islam, who ALL agree that evidence must be clear and explicit.

[Hani]

@ IbnSohan, post #42,

Circus.
You should admit that you are losing the battle today. Shiaism is growing and spreading in Africa, east Asia and Western world which is your newer headquarters.
The reason is simple : These nobel Hadiths of Ghadir and Thaqalyin were hidden for centuries from the Sunnis.

Ah circus? Welcome to the circus then brother Ibn Sohan.


And yes we know that Shiasm grows in areas of deep ignorance and poverty, just like Christianity. I'll tell you where Shiasm doesn't grow, in gatherings of knowledge and intellect such as this forum right here.


As for Ghadeer and Thaqalayn being hidden, I wonder what universe you live in, I thought they were Mutawatir and widespread according to you? Suddenly now they're hidden? Almost every single book of Hadith and Sharh and `Aqeedah contain both the narrations you mentioned, and our scholars like al-Dhahabi wrote entire books just to gather the chains of Ghadeer.

[Nader Zaveri]

Assalaamu `Alaykum,

Brother Hani, if it seems like they are opposed to coming on this forum to debate, why not go on their forums and request the debate. Make sure it is 1-on-1 and no one can reply except you and the other user. And ask the same 1 hadith rule, etc. That way there can be no other "Excuses" or "reasons" they can bring out.

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

[Ebn Hussein]

@ IbnSohan, post #42,

Circus.
You should admit that you are losing the battle today. Shiaism is growing and spreading in Africa, east Asia and Western world which is your newer headquarters.
The reason is simple : These nobel Hadiths of Ghadir and Thaqalyin were hidden for centuries from the Sunnis.

Ah circus? Welcome to the circus then brother Ibn Sohan.


And yes we know that Shiasm grows in areas of deep ignorance and poverty, just like Christianity. I'll tell you where Shiasm doesn't grow, in gatherings of knowledge and intellect such as this forum right here.


As for Ghadeer and Thaqalayn being hidden, I wonder what universe you live in, I thought they were Mutawatir and widespread according to you? Suddenly now they're hidden? Almost every single book of Hadith and Sharh and `Aqeedah contain both the narrations you mentioned, and our scholars like al-Dhahabi wrote entire books just to gather the chains of Ghadeer.

What a big fat lie! Shi'ism is growing in the most deprived areas where the BIGGEST JAHL AND ZANDAQAH exist (guess why ...), areas such as west Africa where African brothers themselves told me that Sufism and Voodoo cults are mixed! No wonder Shias convert some freaks to their filthy Mushrik beliefs. As for the western world, then this is just a bad joke right? 99% of converts except Islam and Sunnah not Kufr (Rafidism), I mean what mentally healthy former Catholic would leave Ya Jesus/Mary/Saint x,y,z for Ya Ali/Fatimah/Imams etc. anyway? Exactly, only a die-hard Mushrik, not a sincere revert:

MMuXw

As for East-Asia, then again I've met numerous East-Asian (some on this board) and they too confirm that only the most extreme Sufis (Semi-Rafidis) accept Shi'ism, no real Sunni would replace Tawheed with kufr, never (also Shias used to have much freedom in east Asia, while Al-Azhar is not allowed to operate ANYWHERE, not even in Sunni areas of Iran, the Rafidah of Iran have built a Shia HAWZA in the Sunni stronghold and Capital of Malaysia! Alhamdulillah the Malaysian gov. is chasing them just as Sudan is, after all why shall Shias have the right to do propaganda in our strongholds if we are not allowed to the the same inside Iran?)

As for "headquarters", It seems the Rafidah are missing out what is going on in their very fortress:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-rise-of-the-sunnais-ex-shias-(video)/msg445/#new

Shi'ism is dying out in its fortress Alhamdulillah, the internet is breaking it's neck ribs, all good and sincere Shias are accepting Tawheed and Sunnah, alhamdulillah.

Hani, forget about it, they are scared, they know nothing has been hidden, for flips sake the Ghadir narration is in OUR books in our MAJOR book Sahih Muslim our books have been translated for DECADES into other languages (unlike Shias who are scared to translate a SINGLE Tafsir book, well I'd be ashamed as well, it's full of batiniyyah and lunacy), the likes of Imam Al-Nawawi have written SHARH on Sahih Muslim (and the Ghadir hadith) our youth have exposed the Ghadir lie with evidence from the Ahlul-Bayt themselves:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-rafidi-narrative-of-ghadir-khumm-as-weak-and-shallow-as-the-rafidi-deen/

Heck they own scholars said the Ghadir incident is not a strong dalil:

http://gift2shias.com/2012/05/14/nass-on-imamah-sharif-al-murtada/

... yet these people have the audacity to claim that anything has been hidden! Wallah nothing has been hidden (except the useless 3aj 3aj serdab dweller), the truth has been hidden from the Shias this is why even their experts are scared to debate (look how scared they are of Hani, they know he's a big gun and he will destroy their Ghadir myth). Shias should stop dreaming and smelling the Turban or at least come to debate, we will show you how weak and shallow your Ghadir myth is, Ghadir has nothing got to do with leadership, none of the Ahlul-Bayt ever believed so and neither do we and we will disbelief in this till the day of Judgement.

Oh, as for Al-Thaqalayn, that one too has been distorted by Shias, every Sunni talib can refute it, like on this beautiful blog (wonder how he found a "hidden" narration, lol):

http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/explanation-of-hadith-ath-thaqalayn/

[Hani]

Assalaamu `Alaykum,

Brother Hani, if it seems like they are opposed to coming on this forum to debate, why not go on their forums and request the debate. Make sure it is 1-on-1 and no one can reply except you and the other user. And ask the same 1 hadith rule, etc. That way there can be no other "Excuses" or "reasons" they can bring out.

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

I already proposed to them that the Shia can post on SC and I post my replies here, I won't spoil them more than this, it is already clear what the situation is.


I also had two accounts there in the past, both of which do not work last I checked, I won't grace them with a third one.


wa `Aleykum al-Salam,

[Nader Zaveri]

Assalaamu `Alaykum,

How are your accounts not able to work? Forgot password? Does it say it is not working? I am sure the Admins can enable your account.

[Hadrami]

Assalaamu `Alaykum,

How are your accounts not able to work? Forgot password? Does it say it is not working? I am sure the Admins can enable your account.

i've seen a shia insulted the khulafa and his comment was only edited, but on the same thread a sunni wrote about an ayatula with really bad recitation and that sunni was banned straightaway. Reason: insulting shia scholars. It's a double standard forum, not a good place for fair uncensored debate.

[Hani]

Assalaamu `Alaykum,

How are your accounts not able to work? Forgot password? Does it say it is not working? I am sure the Admins can enable your account.

One old account was stopped for no reason, so I made another one and after a while they began telling me that my posts need moderation before they appear, which greatly annoyed me and made me lose interest in their entire forum, then after a while I tried to use it and now it gives me this message:


Sorry, you don't have permission for that!
You have been restricted from posting on this community.

Anyway, I have absolutely no interest in joining that forum anymore, we are challenging them to come debate, either they come or they cower in fear as is the habit.

[Ebn Hussein]

They say Omar the one who apparently broke some ribs (and dragged their first deity like a poodle through Madinah: http://gift2shias.com/2012/12/26/omars-poodle-ali-ibn-abi-talib-its-a-rafidhis-world/) was a coward, well found out that is actually them who believe in a hidden coward who is hides due to FEAR his of being slaughtered like a lamb and now his followers are following his Sunnah by going into "Ghaybat-E-Soghraa" (or is it already the "Kobraa" one?).

I mean come on m8, what's the matter? You are after all challenged by a known Sunni online who runs one (in fact the most notorious) Anti-Rafidi board on the net (in English language), filled with academical articles, shredding Tashayyu3 into pieces. Apparently the (Rafidi) Ghadir narrative is so convincing and true that every Rafidi kid can refute a Sunni Mufti, so COME ON, bring it on and we will show you how you Rawafid have misguided MILLIONS of Shias for centuries with the Ghadir lie, one of the biggest lie of history i.e. "Ali's appointment as the political and spiritual leader of the Ummah, right after its Prophet."

Ya Latif, folks, if you all knew Arabic you would know why no Sunni scholars takes a Rafidi scholar serious, they are the laughing stocks when it comes to debates, see Mustaqillah TV, see Allatyari's debates etc.

[Hani]

Nader would you like to discuss this with me on Skype? Not a debate, a discussion in which you tell me what you think and I'll tell you what I think.

[Hani]

Debate Challenge has expired.


After a two pages long thread on ShiaChat, 42 replies, more than 900 views... I wasn't disappointed as I knew that no matter how much we facilitate this matter, none of you are even qualified to step up and debate.

We've been at it for a couple of days now, and I just can't bother checking the ShiaChat thread anymore, I just hope no Casanova will suddenly appear out of thin air, claiming that he would have accepted the debate if the challenge hadn't expired, I say to him: This whole movie reel of yours is expired and burned, you're fooling no one with your mythical heroics.

As for anyone who wishes to know in detail why the text of Hadith al-Ghadeer cannot be used as evidence to prove anything, I'm willing to give you my Skype ID and explain in some detail.

wal-Salamu `Aleykum wa Rahmatullah,

[Farid]

I am disappointed and somewhat surprised; this is Ghadeer for crying out loud.