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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Rationalist on March 20, 2017, 03:10:59 AM

Title: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 20, 2017, 03:10:59 AM
According to Link, Prophet Musa (as) had 12 successors and therefore this ummah must have 12 Calipahs.

The evidence he provides is this.

www.altafsir.com check Al-Suyuti, I posted:


وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.



So the above states that there were 12 representatives and then they became Prophets.

So notice this was after Prophet  Haroon (as) became a Prophet.

So with this in mind we have Prophet Haroon (as) who the 12ers consider as the first successor. So now when we add the total it comes to 14, since history points that Yusha bin Nuh was the first successor after Prophet Musa (as).

So again the number now goes from 12 to 14. Any response to this Link?
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 20, 2017, 04:08:48 AM
You show me an example other then Aeron where a Messenger of God is sent and doesn't lead the people? What you are not understanding is that Moses could do the same job as conveying as Aeron, but Moses prayer is simple, he need Aeron to explain and be better at speech and conveying the truths because he will succeed him and make people in the words of Quran understand the words of Moses.

That is showing one of the wisdom of succession. It's because much of the masses are ignorant, and their is knot on the tongue of the Prophets due to the level of understanding of their people.

Aeron succeeding as implied by being a vizier (the next Authority who has same authority of the top person delegated to him, who when the top authority dies, becomes the Authority), he would elaborate and teaching the wonders of Moses words that people didn't understand but still are planted as seeds where they have some scent of it.

Aeron is the first successor. And in any language you can make generalizations of a group. But that is not even necessary here, because Aeron although was appointed to be a Prophet received his revelation to be revealed to humanity after he was already a vizier.

Talut was a King chosen by God even during time of an another Prophet, and Talut became a Messenger after and received a scripture to reveal to humanity after.

The reason was Yushua ibn Noon is not mentioned in Quran in this case is because he was not appointed.  There are many verses that show this aside from the chosen family themes, there is the verse "I have no control over anyone except me and my brother...." which would imply no one else existed in the nation who was following Moses at that time.

Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 20, 2017, 06:06:06 AM

Aeron is the first successor.

That's what I am pointing out. Prophet Haroon (as) + 12 Cheiftains equals 13 and not 12.
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 20, 2017, 07:29:48 AM
The covenant was regarding 12 people who succeed Moses. Aeron was the first successor of Moses and this even hinted with all the mention of the "mountain" taken over them in the covenant. Aeron means exalted mountain.

Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 20, 2017, 06:28:03 PM
So that equals 13 in total.
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Hani on March 21, 2017, 06:29:36 AM
Thirteener-Shia.
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 21, 2017, 01:42:30 PM
I don't know how to explain it further.

Why do you think Aeron is not one of the Twelve Captains of the covenant of Bani-Israel taken from Moses?
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 21, 2017, 06:49:08 PM
Its based on the tafsir you used for evidence. It says the 12 were chosen as reps and then they became Prophets. With Prophet Haroon this isn't the case. He was a Prophet way and before this event. So that equals 13 and not 12.
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 21, 2017, 06:50:56 PM
Thirteener-Shia.

They actually have a hadith which says there are 13 imams in total. One of their leaders made an attempt and added Imam Zayd to the list to make sure the total is 13.
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 21, 2017, 10:50:54 PM
Its based on the tafsir you used for evidence. It says the 12 were chosen as reps and then they became Prophets. With Prophet Haroon this isn't the case. He was a Prophet way and before this event. So that equals 13 and not 12.

Prophets are chosen as prophets before coming to this world.  However prophets receive revelation to be revealed to humanity at different times. 

But just to clarify this is not a Hadith from the prophet. 
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 21, 2017, 11:54:46 PM


Prophets are chosen as prophets before coming to this world.  However prophets receive revelation to be revealed to humanity at different times. 

But just to clarify this is not a Hadith from the prophet. 

But I am working off the evidence you posted right here.



www.altafsir.com check Al-Suyuti, I posted:


وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.

Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 21, 2017, 11:59:09 PM
Also, Link this would actually match the 13 Imam concept found in the book of  Sulaym Bin Qays

Hadith 10, Kitab Sulaym bin Qays, page 42 says:

“…I said: “O Prophet of Allah, please tell me their names.” He replied: “My this son (he kept his hand on Hassan’s (a.s) heard), then after him my this son (and he kept his hand on the head of Husayn (a.s)) and then my this son’s son (again he put his hand on Husayn’s (a.s) heard), then his son whose name will be same as mine, whose name will be Muhammad. He will spread my knowledge and he will be the treasurer of Allah’s Message and O my brother, Ali will be born soon during your life time so give him my salaam”. Then he turned to Husayn (a.s) and said: “Very soon Muhammad I Ali will be borne in your life time – give him my salaam”. Then, O brother, all 12 Imams in your children” (i.e. 12 imams including Ali (a.s).) Then I asked: “O Messenger of Allah, tell me the names of all.” So he (S.A.W) uttered the name of each one individually…”




Hadith 14, Kitab Sulaym bin Qays, page 75 says:

“…Beware that Allah looked at the dwellers of the earth and He chose, me and then he looked again and He chose my brother Ali, my vizier. my successor, my caliph in my Ummah and the guardian of all faithfuls after me. So He made me a Prophet and Messenger and argument, and He sent Messages to me that I appoint Ali my brother, my trustee, my successor and my caliph in my Ummah after me.

Beware, he is the guardian of every faithful after me. Whoever keeps him friend, Allah will keep him friend, whoever bears enmity towards him, Allah will bear enmity towards him. Whoever loves him, Allah also will love him and whoever hates him, Allah will hate him. Only a faithful will love him and only a non-believer will hate him. He is, after me the Rabb of the earth and the dwellers of the earth and is Allah's kalimah taqwa and is the strong rope of Allah. Do you want to switch off the light of Allah with your mouth, though Allah is the Completor of His Light - the idolaters may not like it. The enemies of Allah want to diminish the light of my brother and Allah wants to complete this Noor.

O people, those of you who are present, pass this sermon to those who are not present. O Allah You be a Witness on all these

O people, Allah looked the third time, then after me. He chose my twelve successors from my ahlulbayt and these are all righteous people of my Ummah. In there, there are eleven Imams after my brother one by one. When one of them passes away the other one from them takes his place. Their example is like stars in the sky - when one star disappears the other rises because they are those Imams who guide and are guided and those who cheat them, their cheating does not effect them, and those that stop helping them, their stopping does not harm them. These are all Allah's authority on His earth and are witness over His creation. Whoever obeys them has obeyed Allah. Whoever disobeys them has disobeyed Allah. These are all with Quran and Quran is with them. They will not separate from Quran and Quran will not separate from them until they reach my Fountain.”
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 12:04:48 AM


Prophets are chosen as prophets before coming to this world.  However prophets receive revelation to be revealed to humanity at different times. 

But just to clarify this is not a Hadith from the prophet. 

But I am working off the evidence you posted right here.



www.altafsir.com check Al-Suyuti, I posted:


وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.


Do you know something called generalizations in language?
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 22, 2017, 12:18:44 AM
Even you interpreted the tafsir that way.

According to tafsir Dar-Almanthur, by Al-Suyuti, Ibn Abbas says regarding the "Twelve Captains", "they became Prophets".  There is also a hadith that says from the Prophet, in the same book, that if children of Israel would of all succeeded had they followed Twelve Men. The author (Dar Al-Manthur) says that hadith is verified by verse 5:12.
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 12:22:56 AM
I'll repeat, do you know something called generalizations in language?

Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 22, 2017, 12:36:44 AM
Regardless of the language, it still equals 13. We know that Prophet Harun (as) role came way before these 12 were appointed as leaders. He is not among them.
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Hani on March 22, 2017, 01:17:05 AM
Al-Fayd al-Kashani, the top Shia interpreter of the Qur'an in his Tafsir wrote that the twelve were heads of their respective tribes, each one was charged with taking care of their people and representing them, they were all appointed at the same time (We know Shia don't accept 2 Imams at once). When they were sent to spy on their enemy, Musa (as) ordered them to keep what they saw as secret but ten of those twelve disobeyed and announced except Caleb and Joshua.

No succession, no infallibility, no leadership over humanity.

كفيلا أمينا شاهدا من كل سبط ينقب عن أحوال قومه ويفتش عنها ويعرف مناقبهم وقال الله إني معكم بالنصرة لئن أقمتم الصلاة وآتيتم الزكاة وآمنتم برسلي وصدقتموهم وعزرتموهم ونصرتموهم وقويتموهم وأقرضتم الله قرضا حسنا بالانفاق في سبيله لأكفرن عنكم سيئاتكم ولأدخلنكم جنات تجري من تحتها الأنهار فمن كفر منكم فقد ضل سواء السبيل قيل أمر الله بني إسرائيل بعد هلاك فرعون بمصر بأن يسيروا إلى أريحا من أرض الشام وكان يسكنها الجبابرة وقال إني كتبتها لكم قرارا وأمر موسى (عليه السلام) بأن يأخذ من كل سبط نقيبا يكون كفيلا على قومه بالوفاء بما أمروا به من الخروج إلى الجبابرة والجهاد وقائدا ورئيسا لهم فاختار النقباء وأخذ الميثاق على بني إسرائيل وتكفل لهم به وسار بهم فلما دنا من أرضهم بعث النقباء يتجسسون فرأوا اجراما عظاما وقوة فرجعوا وأخبروا موسى بذلك فأمرهم أن يكتموا ذلك فحدثوا بذلك قومهم الا كالب بن يوفنا من سبط يهودا ويوشع بن نون من سبط افرائيم بن يوسف وكانا من النقباء
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 01:47:13 AM
A more insightful tafsir from a Shiite Scholar:


{ وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ ٱللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِيۤ إِسْرَآئِيلَ } تعريض بامّة محمّد (ص) لاخذ ميثاقهم لنقيبهم الّذى هو علىّ (ع) { وَبَعَثْنَا مِنهُمُ ٱثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيباً } يأمرونهم وينهونهم { وَقَالَ ٱللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ } فأشاهد منكم ما تفعلون { لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ ٱلصَّلاَةَ } بوصلها الى النّقباء (ع) { وَآتَيْتُمْ ٱلزَّكَاةَ } من كلّ شيءٍ حتّى من ميل قواكم الى مخالفة النّقباء (ع) { وَآمَنتُمْ بِرُسُلِي } الّذين منهم النّقباء (ع) { وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ } نصرتموهم وقوّيتموهم { وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ ٱللَّهَ قَرْضاً حَسَناً } من اصل المال بانفاقه فى سبيل الله، واصل القوى باضعافها بالعبادات والرّياضات، فانّ الزّكوة هى فضول المال الّتى هى حقّ الغير والقرض من اصل المال { لأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنْكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ } بزكوتكم وقرضكم { وَلأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلأَنْهَارُ } بصلوتكم وايمانكم وتعزيركم { فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذٰلِكَ } الميثاق للنّقباء (ع) والوعد عليه { مِنْكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ ٱلسَّبِيل } فتذكّروا يا امّة محمّد (ص) واوفوا بميثاقكم لعلىّ (ع) ولا تكفروا بعد الميثاق.

Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Hani on March 22, 2017, 01:52:19 AM
That sounds dumber and more fabricated. However, it seems there's no consensus among Shia scholars on this lol.

By the way, this Tafsir your quoting by this nobody who calls himself Sultan `Ali Shah contains clear belief in Tahreef:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/12/10/sultan-ali-shah-and-tahreef/
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 01:57:11 AM
That sounds dumber and more fabricated. However, it seems there's no consensus among Shia scholars on this lol.

By the way, this Tafsir your quoting by this nobody who calls himself Sultan `Ali Shah contains clear belief in Tahreef:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/12/10/sultan-ali-shah-and-tahreef/

The hadith from Salman Farsi from the Rasool is clear and it's proven by 1. Reason 2. Quran. 3. Supported by other hadiths including hadiths from Sunni sources like "how many successors will rule this nation? Rasool replied, "twelve", like that for the children of Israel"

Or "Had the children of Israel followed Twelve Men".

Or "There will be Twelve Rulers all of them from Quryash" (Bukhari)

etc....

Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Hani on March 22, 2017, 02:03:13 AM
Reason: Your beliefs are impractical, not useful and have no value for any intelligent being. Rather they are a curse upon humanity as they await a mythical character to save them instead of doing it themselves in addition to dooming Muslims to hell for disbelieving in something unbelievable and vague.

Qur'an: You've proven nothing from the Qur'an and we've refuted all your arguments thus far whether "Ulil-Amr" or "Ilyaseen" or anything else.

Sunnah:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/05/12/hadith-of-twelve-caliphs/

Bon apetit Jahil
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 02:05:42 AM
People can judge who won those arguments. No need to self-declare your supposed victory constantly.
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on March 22, 2017, 02:16:52 AM
The reason I have stopped replying to your posts directly is that most of what you spew has no consensus amongst any shia sect whatsoever.
Hence you would be like the only person on the face of this whole earth who subscribes to even half your views.
To make it worse you waste even more of a persons time with your essays that hardly make any sense.
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 02:30:26 AM
no consensus amongst any shia sect whatsoever.

There is no consensus on issues related to Tawheed either.  I don't understand the points you guys try to make, I try my best to show the fallacy and false thinking, but I really don't understand.

Is it so bad that God blessed humanity with a chosen family like he did in the past?

Is it so hard to rely on God for guidance and try to get connected to a mystic link beyond our understanding?

Is is so bad to investigate and seek insight from the Twelve Streams of Mohammad's covenant, and not mix in relying on other streams which are full of pollution for insight?

Is it so bad to believe God can put enough leaders to perserve the teachings of Islam if we don't mix with their leadership and authority others?

Is it so bad to be connected to a leader and guide from God that can empower our sword and help us in ways we do not understand?

Is it so bad that God blesses us through the prayers of an intercessor that is dear to him and knows humans and Jinn more then they know themselves, and makes a mercy to humanity and Jinn?

I don't understand you guys. I don't.

Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on March 22, 2017, 02:42:23 AM
If you was so sincere you would be open to views other than just your own (they literally are just your own in most cases).
So many threads & posts you make yet each time you see yourself as being the only person who is ALWAYS right EVERYTIME.
That is no sincere search for the truth.
In your head YOU ARE THE TRUTH.
I'm just waiting for the moment when you claim a divine position for yourself if you already haven't.

Yes it is so bad!
Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 02:52:02 AM
An Atheist wants one to be open minded and doubt God. The Christian wants us to be open minded and doubt the unity of God. The Jews want us to doubt Mohammad and the majestic Quran. The Sunnis wants us to doubt the Imams. The divergent Shiites want us to doubt the holy Sacred Twelve and the clear affair of the religion as it's always been by God.

There is no shortage of people who wish others to plunge to their level.

I had views that were very much like the masses of Shiites in the past. I've even argued against Imammate in my rebellious times and said there is no conclusive proof Shiism. I gave the devil a chance, believe me.

I am not going to doubt any more. I left that house, thanks to God who guided me to that, and I would not have been guided were it not that God guided me.

Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Hani on March 22, 2017, 08:38:02 PM

Is it so bad that God blessed humanity with a chosen family like he did in the past?


It is great that God blessed humanity (period), whichever way He decides to bless us, we are grateful.

Quote
Is it so hard to rely on God for guidance and try to get connected to a mystic link beyond our understanding?


That's what EVERY Muslim does, we rely on God who guides us in mysterious ways. We form bonds with our creator in every possible way we can without disobeying His command.


Quote
Is is so bad to investigate and seek insight from the Twelve Streams of Mohammad's covenant, and not mix in relying on other streams which are full of pollution for insight?


Yes, these twelve streams were never pure to begin with. Furthermore, even if they were pure their teachings reached us through a million polluted streams (narrators). In addition to that, we were not required by God to take knowledge from those twelve. Not to forget that the current "stream" is out of commission and dry (no flow of knowledge).

Quote
Is it so bad to believe God can put enough leaders to perserve the teachings of Islam if we don't mix with their leadership and authority others?


He didn't put enough, twelve is a lot less than the time humanity requires to reach the end of its journey. We needed a few hundreds based on this theory. Furthermore, none of those leaders were able to preserve or protect Islamic teachings that were tainted by consensus of Shia. During the presence of the eleven you speak of, religion was tainted and corrupted. They were definitely incapable, the matter was way above their heads and they were clearly ill-equipped to handle such a job.

Quote
Is it so bad to be connected to a leader and guide from God that can empower our sword and help us in ways we do not understand?


No it's great. We strive to connect ourselves to religious leaders and guides whom God Has guided at all times.

Quote
Is it so bad that God blesses us through the prayers of an intercessor that is dear to him and knows humans and Jinn more then they know themselves, and makes a mercy to humanity and Jinn?


God accepts our prayers and has established a connection with his needy and repentant slaves. It is a mercy that we do not need any intercessors to reach him. As for those who wish to supplicate God for us and intercede, we are of course thankful.

Quote
I don't understand you guys. I don't.


If everybody doesn't understand you, then it is a fault in you. Concluding otherwise is arrogance and haughtiness.



Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Link on March 23, 2017, 04:55:32 AM
Quote
It is great that God blessed humanity (period), whichever way He decides to bless us, we are grateful.


The way he does has been shown to be through books he reveals and leaders he appoints. And the Leaders never come alone, they come in groups, succeeding one another.




Quote
That's what EVERY Muslim does, we rely on God who guides us in mysterious ways. We form bonds with our creator in every possible way we can without disobeying His command.


This is got to be a joke. Yeah every Muslim tried to connect to God that is why the abandoned Imam Hussain, that is why they let oppressors rule, etc....


Quote
Yes, these twelve streams were never pure to begin with. Furthermore, even if they were pure their teachings reached us through a million polluted streams (narrators). In addition to that, we were not required by God to take knowledge from those twelve. Not to forget that the current "stream" is out of commission and dry (no flow of knowledge).

There is going to be bad stuff attributed to them, but if we are going to get enlightenment, it's going to be through God's chosen ones, and among the narrations attributed to them through narrators who narrate to them, will be the knowledge and wisdom we seek, and the insight that will help us perceive the truths of the Quran.




Quote
He didn't put enough, twelve is a lot less than the time humanity requires to reach the end of its journey. We needed a few hundreds based on this theory.

If the chosen families came in groups of 200 divinely appointed leaders let's say, then God would have emphasized on that in the past, and emphasized on that number through out the ages.

Aeron would have had that number on his clothes, and Elyas would have that many stones, and Sulaiman's temple would have that many Lions. But we see 12 emphasized on.

Whatever number God knows is best, is what is best.



Quote
No it's great. We strive to connect ourselves to religious leaders and guides whom God Has guided at all times.

Except Quran shows no one should be followed except those he appoints and that clergy never had authority ever and never will.

Quote
God accepts our prayers and has established a connection with his needy and repentant slaves. It is a mercy that we do not need any intercessors to reach him. As for those who wish to supplicate God for us and intercede, we are of course thankful.

The reason is sufficient as a guide but we still need Messengers and holy books to help us. I will go more details into this. I am aware of the line in nahjul balagha in that letter, but I will talk more about why we need intercession another time.


Quote
If everybody doesn't understand you, then it is a fault in you. Concluding otherwise is arrogance and haughtiness.

Who says no one understands me. Or is that you represent all humans?

Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Hani on March 23, 2017, 08:53:21 PM




Quote

The way he does has been shown to be through books he reveals and leaders he appoints. And the Leaders never come alone, they come in groups, succeeding one another.


He revealed his Las book and sent his Last prophet (saw), why do you wish for the continuation of prophet-hood when that is a matter that clearly ended?



Quote

This is got to be a joke. Yeah every Muslim tried to connect to God that is why the abandoned Imam Hussain, that is why they let oppressors rule, etc....


Your religion is the joke, you mock God's pious servants and friends. Husayn made a bad move which resulted in a tragedy, he was advised not to rely on Kufans countless times. Funny that you rely for your religion on the same people Husayn relied on for support, then you're shocked that your beliefs are unreliable. The faithful Muslim must be wise and patient, most of the times revolting with the sword is not the best idea.


It is also funny how you went and tied spirituality right away with politics, shows how shallow your understanding of religion is. We talk about Muslims forming bonds with their creator and you talk about supporting `Alawite revolutions.


Secondly, if your measurement for piety and forming divine bonds relies on revolting, then the Khawarij and the Zaydiyyah must be the most guided of sects. Furthermore, the Companions revolted in al-Harrah of Madinah, guess what happened? They were massacred.



Quote

There is going to be bad stuff attributed to them, but if we are going to get enlightenment, it's going to be through God's chosen ones, and among the narrations attributed to them through narrators who narrate to them, will be the knowledge and wisdom we seek, and the insight that will help us perceive the truths of the Quran.


And we have narrations attributed to the Prophet (saw) from his most reliable Companions, people the entire nation viewed positively and with high regard. Surely, the Prophet (saw) is greater than the other members of his family, so relying on him is more crucial than the liars of Kufah.


Secondly, those you speak of were never chosen. Some of them were much wiser than others and more knowledgeable, other people in the nation were equally knowledgeable or more. That's what's recorded in the Islamic biographies and history books. Except in the Shia's own books, yet they're biased, unreliable and filled with exaggerations so we rightfully dismiss them.


Quote
If the chosen families came in groups of 200 divinely appointed leaders let's say, then God would have emphasized on that in the past, and emphasized on that number through out the ages.


Aeron would have had that number on his clothes, and Elyas would have that many stones, and Sulaiman's temple would have that many Lions. But we see 12 emphasized on.


No, if they were 200, God would have CLEARLY said "Your leaders are 200." Instead of mentioning 200 trees in some garden or 200 coins in some dude's wallet. This is not the DaVinci code, it is God's clear book. The number twelve was only mentioned in God's book with regards to the 12 tribes of Israel, then for each tribe there was a captain and they were given twelve rivers for sustenance. Obviously also the 12 months in a year. So the number twelve was mainly used because the tribes happened to be twelve, if they were thirteen they'd need equal number of leaders with thirteen rivers to live-off, that doesn't necessite that we must be ruled by twelve succeeding leaders.


If every number you see is referring to Imams, what do we do with these numbers?


{By the dawn - and ten nights}


{Its expiation is the feeding of ten needy (people) with such food as you normally offer to your own people}


{but if he lacks the means, let him fast three days during the pilgrimage and seven when he has returned, that is, ten days in all}


{He who brings a good deed shall have ten of its like}


{Or do they say: 'He has forged it' Say (to them): 'Then produce ten forged chapters like it.}


That's ten nights, what does it mean? 10 Imams?


{When Joseph said to his father: 'Father, I saw eleven planets, and the sun and the moon; I saw them prostrating themselves before me'}


Here it's eleven, or maybe 13 if you add the sun & moon, what does that make the number of Imams?


{Over it are nineteen (angels guarding).}


Nineteen Imams maybe?


Besides, if you're so obsessed with numbers, there's more emphasis on other numbers, for instance the number seven. And we know there's a sevener Shia sect (Isma`ilis) and their main arguments were esoteric and numerical.


{I saw in a vision seven fatted cows being devoured by seven lean ones; and seven green ears of corn and seven others withered.}
{He willed to the heaven, and leveled them seven heavens}
{a grain of corn that sprouts seven ears}
{He replied: 'You shall sow for seven years as is your way}
{Thereafter, seven hard years will come upon you}
{It has seven gates, and through each gate a portion of them belong}
{And We have certainly given you, [O Muhammad], seven of the often repeated [verses] and the great Qur'an.}
{It is Allah who has created seven heavens and of the earth [seven] the like of them}
{Which Allah imposed upon them for seven nights and eight days in succession}
etc..etc...


Based on these and many others, the seveners have a greater claim. For us, the use of these numbers in such a misguided way is ignorance.


Simply because God clearly says so:


{It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God.}


Either-way, you have't answered the argument. I said, 12 are not enough leaders in terms of quantity to lead mankind till the end of times, we needed hundreds of them. Eleven out of the twelve passed in the period of 260 years, we've been alive for 1,400 years and still counting.



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Except Quran shows no one should be followed except those he appoints and that clergy never had authority ever and never will.


Poor Wilayat-ul-Faqih people will be preplexed to hear this.


You are wrong as usual, God does tell us CLEARLY to follow the righteous people who aren't necessarily appointed:


{And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.}


{And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination.}



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The reason is sufficient as a guide but we still need Messengers and holy books to help us. I will go more details into this. I am aware of the line in nahjul balagha in that letter, but I will talk more about why we need intercession another time.


The believers can ask intercession of other living believers if they wish. They also have to ask God themselves and cannot solely rely on those intercessors. Furthermore, they cannot ask of the dead since that implies the dead are all-hearing and knowing, it also implies that the dead can do actions and we believe our actions are cut after death. The believers who follow the way of the Prophet (saw) will receive his intercession on the day of judgement.











Title: Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
Post by: Rationalist on March 26, 2017, 01:55:01 AM

I had views that were very much like the masses of Shiites in the past. I've even argued against Imammate in my rebellious times and said there is no conclusive proof Shiism. I gave the devil a chance, believe me.



What makes you think the devil has left you after returning to the Dozener Shia Sect?
The struggle still continues till you pass away. An example can be presented from Al Kafi itself.

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