Do we need the 12 Imams?

[MuslimAnswers]

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There is a lot unnecesarry prose above, yet the important points are as follows:

1. Concerning the "necessity" of Infallibles to be among people and to suffer with them, this is definitely not established as a need, and the sound mind does not see it at all as such. Besides, if one were to say that the "Imam in Occultation" is indeed suffering right now among people, this would have to be known in terms of exact time and location, which it is not, so again it is an irrelevant "Imam" for all intents and purposes.

2. If the Shia cannot articulate the matter properly as it seems to be the case, and since we know that the Quran is not articulating it perspicuously either, then it is obviously not clear enough to indicate obligatoriness [at the very minimum].

3. The matter of Elijah being a 'guide' after 'Isa (AS) is not proven; if anything it would go against the very principles of Twelver ideology, and prevent need for any further argumentation.

4. I see that the argument being used about Ibrahim (AS) is the same weak one employed by Tabatabai in his Tafsir; the reality being, among other things, that:

a) 'ظالم' is given a meaning of 'Fallible' while this is not borne out by this Verse nor by other Verses relating this same issue of the progeny after Ibrahim (AS).

b) The righteous descendants of Ibrahim (AS) on multiple occasions interact in ways that totally contradict "Infallible Imamah", so that seals the case right there, and really puts aside the need for further discussion.

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1. Concerning the "necessity" of Infallibles to be among people and to suffer with them, this is definitely not established as a need, and the sound mind does not see it at all as such. Besides, if one were to say that the "Imam in Occultation" is indeed suffering right now among people, this would have to be known in terms of exact time and location, which it is not, so again it is an irrelevant "Imam" for all intents and purposes.

I don't see any refutation to my points aside from just denying and stating the Imam would not be in occultation.

2. If the Shia cannot articulate the matter properly as it seems to be the case, and since we know that the Quran is not articulating it perspicuously either, then it is obviously not clear enough to indicate obligatoriness [at the very minimum].

The Quran does articulate better and it has it's wisdom there for all humanity.  It has designation of guidance through a guide in each age and era.

3. The matter of Elijah being a 'guide' after 'Isa (AS) is not proven; if anything it would go against the very principles of Twelver ideology, and prevent need for any further argumentation.

It's proven in a subtle way to me.

4. I see that the argument being used about Ibrahim (AS) is the same weak one employed by Tabatabai in his Tafsir; the reality being, among other things, that:

a) 'ظالم' is given a meaning of 'Fallible' while this is not borne out by this Verse nor by other Verses relating this same issue of the progeny after Ibrahim (AS).

b) The righteous descendants of Ibrahim (AS) on multiple occasions interact in ways that totally contradict "Infallible Imamah", so that seals the case right there, and really puts aside the need for further discussion.

The Quran doesn't state all righteous people will be Imams, is states his covenant of leadership will not include those who are unjust or did injustice....

Also this is not the only verse that proves Imammate perpetually and it being a different station.  But it's the core of Sunnism to belittle every verse relating to guidance and dismiss as irrelevant.

[muslim720]

The Quran doesn't state all righteous people will be Imams, is states his covenant of leadership will not include those who are unjust or did injustice....

Very well, then, I will pose the same question Syed Zafarullah Shah (from Takbeer TV) posed to Hassan Allahyari which caused the latter to run in all directions and mumble something incoherent from a text (Al-Kafi) which is not hujjah upon us.

You said that the Qur'an "doesn't state all righteous people will be Imams" and you also believe that only Allah (swt) appoints Imams.  Then why the following supplication in Surah Al-Furqan verse 74:
"And those who pray, 'Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous (Imama).'"

If Allah (swt) appoints Imams, then why are we making this supplication almost on a weekly (if not daily) basis?

The very next verse says, "Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace".  Here Allah (swt) is saying that the righteous will be rewarded whereas you are saying that not every righteous person will be Imam when the Qur'an teaches us to supplicate for our children to be Imams (and guarantees reward for the righteous).

But it's the core of Sunnism to belittle every verse relating to guidance and dismiss as irrelevant.

It is the core of Sunni Islam to understand everything holistically just like your own established beliefs (regarding Imama) fail in the light of the Qur'an.

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Very well, then, I will pose the same question Syed Zafarullah Shah (from Takbeer TV) posed to Hassan Allahyari which caused the latter to run in all directions and mumble something incoherent from a text (Al-Kafi) which is not hujjah upon us.

You said that the Qur'an "doesn't state all righteous people will be Imams" and you also believe that only Allah (swt) appoints Imams.  Then why the following supplication in Surah Al-Furqan verse 74:
"And those who pray, 'Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous (Imama).'"

If Allah (swt) appoints Imams, then why are we making this supplication almost on a weekly (if not daily) basis?

If we look at the context, it's referring to people's ignorance of Mohammad's station, and their over all blindness to the station of God's chosen ones. So when it says "And the servants of the Rahman....", it's not refering to all servants of the Rahman.

We can prove that three ways:

1. Context it was related to specifically the servants of the Rahman they were saying would be given mansions, etc, if they were actually chosen to guide humanity.

2. Mutaqeen are good servants of God, but not all of them would be included, because the prayer is to be an "Imam" of Mutaqeen (so if all mutaqeen were Imams who is left to be lead?)


3. Other verses showing that it's not for us to say who is to lead us and guide us and who is the path way to God, for example, Abraham was a way/course (ummatan) to God, because he has clear proofs and evidence. If we can decide who is our guides and leaders and examples to follow and imitate and be lead by, then there would be no need of Prophets and revelations from God. 

If you are Shia, there are hadiths that verify it refers to God's chosen ones.

The very next verse says, "Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace".  Here Allah (swt) is saying that the righteous will be rewarded whereas you are saying that not every righteous person will be Imam when the Qur'an teaches us to supplicate for our children to be Imams (and guarantees reward for the righteous).

If all Mutaqeen/righteous are leaders, who is left to lead the righteous/mutaqeen?

It is the core of Sunni Islam to understand everything holistically just like your own established beliefs (regarding Imama) fail in the light of the Qur'an.

The core of Sunnism is to disconnect Quran verses from one another, and disconnect hadiths of the Prophet from the Quran.

Isolate and interpret by desires. That is all there is to it.  It's nothing but huffing and puffing and making blindness as if it's a virtue.

[muslim720]

2. Mutaqeen are good servants of God, but not all of them would be included, because the prayer is to be an "Imam" of Mutaqeen (so if all mutaqeen were Imams who is left to be lead?)

The prayer does not necessitate that everyone is appointed Imam; in fact, that is not even my argument.  My argument, which you have overlooked for convenience or out of helplessness, is the following: if Imams are appointed by Allah (swt), why are we encouraged to supplicate for our children to be chosen Imams, to lead the righteous?

If all Mutaqeen/righteous are leaders, who is left to lead the righteous/mutaqeen?

The verse, or the next one for that matter, does not guarantee that everyone making this supplication will necessarily be appointed as a leader to the righteous.  However, the verse leaves the appointment open to supplication and the next verse give glad tidings (to those who make this supplication), therefore, encouraging it.  Why would Allah (swt) encourage us to supplicate for something which has already been Divinely Ordained?  Can you supplicate for your children to be made prophets?  No!  Such a thing will make you oppose the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad (saw).  Then why are we commanded to make this supplication when (allegedly) Imamah has been already settled?

The core of Sunnism is to disconnect Quran verses from one another, and disconnect hadiths of the Prophet from the Quran.

Coming from the genius who wrote a painful-to-read, incoherent essay replete with punchlines like, "take away the story of fulan and you have done blah blah blah", this is almost criminal.

Speaking of disconnected hadiths, how many of your hadiths go back to the Prophet (saw)?

PS: I'm waiting for you to reconcile the two dichotomies I've pointed out here: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/proving-there-is-exactly-'twelve'-successors/msg14366/#new

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Prove your interpretation from Quran.  Show the context is about what you said.

Also, God never praises a prayer of a people and emphasizes on it, that he won't answer. Not once in Quran.

More interpretation of desires, while the whole context was about chosen type servants of God, the type they were objecting to and hence the reply is about that.

It shows God gave his chosen ones something beyond what they can appreciate and hence their objection of why isn't he blessed with treasures of gold etc, is all meaningless.

[muslim720]

Prove your interpretation from Quran.  Show the context is about what you said.

Exactly what have you - for all that you have typed in the last God knows how many days - provided the Qur'anic proof and context for?