Do we need the 12 Imams?

[Abu Muhammad]

Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

Would like to see your answer to Brother Husayn's questions here...

And ur 4 Imams of ahle sunnah were students of Jafar Sadiq (As), don't ever say something that stupid again.

Don't call other people saying something stupid if you don't know the full story.

[Hani]

The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?

Not ready to return is not the reason for going into ghaybah in the first place. That's the reason for why he does not re-appear.

The very reason he went into ghaybah in the first place according to Twelvers was because he was afraid and freightened of being killed.

Yep, same way Isa (as) went into hiding, and Prophet Muhammad (saw), are they all cave dwelling  cowards too now?

Yet you claim `Umar also avoided harm out of fear but for some reason you insult `Umar and claim him a coward.

On the other hand, when your 12th leader runs without a trace out of fear from death for 1,200 years, suddenly you start quoting narrations about the prophets running away. Why not insult them too for consistency sake?

[Hani]

Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).

So the Prophet (saws) was in less danger when he was surrounded entirely by kuffar than the 12th Imam is now with millions of Shia to protect him?


Imam Ali (ra) was in less danger when the entire Ummah conspired to withhold his rightful leadership?


Imam Hussain (ra) was in less danger when he walked into a suicide mission that he supposedly had foreknowledge of?


All of these righteous men (peace be upon them all) were in less danger than your 12th Imam is in today when he had an earth full of Shi'ites to protect and support him?


SubhanAllah, if they were all in less danger than your 12th Imam, what does that say about you Shias that can't even protect one man?

The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?

All your top scholars and thinkers say it's due to fear of death, this is supported by your narrations.

As for this "getting ready" business, it's a vague excuse thrown to confuse people as to why this mythical creature does not show its face. How about you go take a shower, brush your hair and get ready for his return already?

[Abu Muhammad]

Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

This is a good topic. I will reply after I am done exams.

Link, I thought you want to write a reply to this topic.

[Solomon]

Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

Hi, brother u r there  I thought we r done.
As we have discussed above they were guide, so like every imam he also guided people in his time towards the religion of Prophet(sawa) so that followers of truth may not go astray.

[Abu Muhammad]

I stopped due to this:

Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

By the way, you insist.

We agreed that a prophet/Imam can leave the people , so brother, in that situation people have to look for scholars to access knowledge. If you are thinking continuous verbal & apparent guidance from Infalliable guide should be there then it will occur only when Imam will re-appear. When ever a prophet/Imam leaves the people its because of peoples being non supportive against tyrants so people have to suffer up till his reappearance form non-continuous verbal & apparent guidance.

Wow… I can't believe what I saw here. Your hidden Imam indiscriminately puts billions of people into suffering for more than a thousand years.  That's interesting. That is what you call God's grace.

As far as you brought the point of God's grace,for us imams(/prophet's) very existence on earth ,being God's grace, stop God's wrath on earth when numerous brutal crime is going on earth today and then also God left people with the door open for them towards truth.

What you stated there was GOD's MERCY and not GRACE. Learn the difference.

Read the excerp below from one of your Twelvers website Al-Islam.org. Whenever I stressed about infallible guide and God's grace according to Twelvers, this is what I meant:

"Imamat is the Grace (Lutf) of Allah which attracts mankind towards His obedience and keeps them away from His disobedience, without compelling them in any way. When Allah orders mankind to do something yet He is aware that either they can not do it, or it is very difficult for them to do it without His assistance, then if Allah does not provide His assistance, He would be contradicting His own aim. Obviously, such negligence is evil according to reason.

As such, Grace (Lutf) is one of Allah’s character, and He is purified/exalted from inadequacy of lacking such attribute."

Also:

"If a divinely appointed leader is not infallible (Ma’sum), he would be liable to errors and to deceive others as well. In such a case, no implicit confidence may be placed in his sayings/commands/actions. A divinely appointed Imam is the most liable person to rule as the head of the community, and people are supposed to follow him in every matter.

Now if he commits a sin, people would be bound to follow him in that sin as well, because of their ignorance of whether that action is sin or not (Keep in mind the assumption that Imam is the most knowledgeable person in his community).

Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable."

Now, tell me who are you following for the past 1,100 years? Infallible imam or fallible Ulama'?If fallible Ulama', how do you know that those Ulama' are free from error and free from sin? If you said they are not free from error and sin, then I quoted again the above paragraph from Al-Islam.org :

"Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable."

Frankly speaking, the deeper I went into Twelvers Shiism, the more confusing I became.

[Abu Muhammad]

Yeah... Brother Solomon, I thinks you should also start answering Bro Hussein' question there...

[Solomon]

I stopped due to this:

Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

By the way, you insist.

Firstly, we were talking with respect to (12)imam/guide so no where it was derailed but due to another shia guy it was derailed--maybe to him bro hussain was pointing otherwise he should have pointed at very begining when we started....No i don't insist ,its up to u to discuss, u left halfway and started commenting on others so I thought we r undone. Again I don't insist brother.
Anyways coming to point-

Wow… I can't believe what I saw here. Your hidden Imam indiscriminately puts billions of people into suffering for more than a thousand years.  That's interesting. That is what you call God's grace.

Brother we earlier discussed the oppressive situation due to which Imam went in occultation(as it was obligatory on Imam).As our prophet(sawa) left meccans or musa(as)left his ppl.
Community  suffers b/c of being non-supportive

What you stated there was GOD's MERCY and not GRACE. Learn the difference.

Read the excerp below from one of your Twelvers website Al-Islam.org. Whenever I stressed about infallible guide and God's grace according to Twelvers, this is what I meant:

"Imamat is the Grace (Lutf) of Allah which attracts mankind towards His obedience and keeps them away from His disobedience, without compelling them in any way. When Allah orders mankind to do something yet He is aware that either they can not do it, or it is very difficult for them to do it without His assistance, then if Allah does not provide His assistance, He would be contradicting His own aim. Obviously, such negligence is evil according to reason.

As such, Grace (Lutf) is one of Allah’s character, and He is purified/exalted from inadequacy of lacking such attribute."

Also:

"If a divinely appointed leader is not infallible (Ma’sum), he would be liable to errors and to deceive others as well. In such a case, no implicit confidence may be placed in his sayings/commands/actions. A divinely appointed Imam is the most liable person to rule as the head of the community, and people are supposed to follow him in every matter.

Now if he commits a sin, people would be bound to follow him in that sin as well, because of their ignorance of whether that action is sin or not (Keep in mind the assumption that Imam is the most knowledgeable person in his community).

Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable."

Now, tell me who are you following for the past 1,100 years? Infallible imam or fallible Ulama'?If fallible Ulama', how do you know that those Ulama' are free from error and free from sin? If you said they are not free from error and sin, then I quoted again the above paragraph from Al-Islam.org :

"Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable."

Frankly speaking, the deeper I went into Twelvers Shiism, the more confusing I became.

the site which you quoted is talking about grace and I consider his grace to humans under his mercy.
Turning towards scholars will provide more accurate knowledge during occultation.God has given his grace but ppl didn't supported him in normal condition also thatswhy ppl suffers and are responsible.Yep God has completed his grace but ppl went below even normal level towards supporting him

[Abu Muhammad]

Firstly, we were talking with respect to (12)imam/guide so no where it was derailed but due to another shia guy it was derailed--

Not really. Brother Husayn asked whether the Twelver Shi'a can demonsrate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam UNLESS you are in agreement with him since you were, somehow, just prove that it is not necessary to have imam for us to know the true Islam. Occultation itself shows that people can't get access to the "true" Islam regardless the reason he went into occulatation.

Brother we earlier discussed the oppressive situation due to which Imam went in occultation(as it was obligatory on Imam).As our prophet(sawa) left meccans or musa(as)left his ppl.
Community  suffers b/c of being non-supportive

As far as I know the reasons given by Twelvers, he went hiding because he was freigthened and afraid of being killed. There are sayings of your imams from your books that clearly stated that. Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca because of procecution of Qurasy and death threat. Was he afraid? Never. We could see how calm he was during Hijrah.

By the way, Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca with his followers. So, he s.a.w. is accessable to his followers for guidance and hence, it was not the same situation as your hidden imam.

the site which you quoted is talking about grace and I consider his grace to humans under his mercy.

Please elaborate…

God has given his grace but ppl didn't supported him in normal condition also thatswhy ppl suffers and are responsible.Yep God has completed his grace but ppl went below even normal level towards supporting him

God INDISCRIMINATELY punished billions of people from generations after generations for the past thousand years and deprieve them from guidance. Yup, what a just God you got. And what an excuse too.

Turning towards scholars will provide more accurate knowledge during occultation.

You know what. In the end, both Sunni and Twelvers methodologies are in principle the same. Forget about the need for infallible guides after the demise of Prophet s.a.w. We both depend on fallible people to derive guidance from the words of Allah and the words of ma'sum. The major difference is Sunni has far more superior and sound traditions and sciences compared to Twelvers.

[Solomon]

Not really. Brother Husayn asked whether the Twelver Shi'a can demonsrate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam UNLESS you are in agreement with him since you were, somehow, just prove that it is not necessary to have imam for us to know the true Islam. Occultation itself shows that people can't get access to the "true" Islam regardless the reason he went into occulatation.

As said earlier there is a guide for every people and our prophet was a warner only as per Quran.
13:7- And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
These guides r infalliable imams and as for number 12 caliphs sahih bukhari helps us.

As far as I know the reasons given by Twelvers, he went hiding because he was freigthened and afraid of being killed. There are sayings of your imams from your books that clearly stated that. Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca because of procecution of Qurasy and death threat. Was he afraid? Never. We could see how calm he was during Hijrah.

By the way, Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca with his followers. So, he s.a.w. is accessable to his followers for guidance and hence, it was not the same situation as your hidden imam.

Again u came up with something that our scholars said I also know this there are various other factors as well but I didn't quote b/c it wasn't in exact line of conversation according to me.Anyways being frightened for ones life is not sign of cowardness always.If a vicegerent of God fears about his life maybe in danger and task given  by God is not completed then any such fear for life is for God and is correct.
28:21- So he escaped from thence, fearing, vigilant. He said: My Lord! Deliver me from the wrongdoing folk.
here fear of ulul azm prophet was also correct,and I quoted abt our prophet to show one can leave ppl if needed.

the site which you quoted is talking about grace and I consider his grace to humans under his mercy.

Please elaborate…

God INDISCRIMINATELY punished billions of people from generations after generations for the past thousand years and deprieve them from guidance. Yup, what a just God you got. And what an excuse too.

U came up with that point if u think his grace is not under sky of mercy then you must elaborate.

God has not indiscriminately made ppl suffered but ppl themseleves were responsible as one generation is responsible for upbringing of other generation and so on, so untill community don't produce such a generation, who can be with imam when imam breaks oppressors and establishes just government, community suffers and God is just as always

[Abu Muhammad]

Brother Husayn's questions were:

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

And your answer was:

As said earlier there is a guide for every people and our prophet was a warner only as per Quran.
13:7- And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
These guides r infalliable imams and as for number 12 caliphs sahih bukhari helps us.

Great! Typical Twelvers response that does not addressing the questions. Read again the question carefully and try again.

By the way, from the ayah, it shows that Prophet s.a.w. was not a guide. Only a warner. Good, another problem created.

Again u came up with something that our scholars said I also know this there are various other factors as well but I didn't quote b/c it wasn't in exact line of conversation according to me.Anyways being frightened for ones life is not sign of cowardness always.If a vicegerent of God fears about his life maybe in danger and task given  by God is not completed then any such fear for life is for God and is correct.
28:21- So he escaped from thence, fearing, vigilant. He said: My Lord! Deliver me from the wrongdoing folk.
here fear of ulul azm prophet was also correct,and I quoted abt our prophet to show one can leave ppl if needed.

Sure, we both agree that he was fear for his life even though for you that was not the sign of cowardness.

By the way, I repeat the point that you missed up there; Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca with his followers. So, he s.a.w. was accessable to his followers for guidance and hence, it was clearly not the same situation as your hidden imam.

God has not indiscriminately made ppl suffered but ppl themseleves were responsible as one generation is responsible for upbringing of other generation and so on, so untill community don't produce such a generation, who can be with imam when imam breaks oppressors and establishes just government, community suffers and God is just as always

Nope. You are wrong. That's not the only conditions. Even though people produce such generation, they will still be deprieved of guidance since your imam will not come out until the other signs manifested e.g. coming of Sufyani, etc.

So, don't blame people for that. Blame your "God" since he INDICRIMINATELY punished people NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE DO. What a justice.

[Solomon]

""""Nope. You are wrong. That's not the only conditions. Even though people produce such generation, they will still be deprieved of guidance since your imam will not come out until the other signs manifested e.g. coming of Sufyani, etc. """

[Sorry my QUOTE property wasn't working ]

I've never said that's the only reason.I just took one reason to discuss. There must be that many number of ,highly ranked in faith ,supporters at a time as needed to establish the rule .If there were ppl of that level asu say then we also get numerous incident in shia book of there meeting with Imam/Guide but they were not that many and yes not only this but there are many more factors as well.
Sufayani etc r signs(ie- effects not cause) of the time near to reappearence.

[Abu Muhammad]

""""Nope. You are wrong. That's not the only conditions. Even though people produce such generation, they will still be deprieved of guidance since your imam will not come out until the other signs manifested e.g. coming of Sufyani, etc. """

[Sorry my QUOTE property wasn't working ]

I've never said that's the only reason.I just took one reason to discuss. There must be that many number of ,highly ranked in faith ,supporters at a time as needed to establish the rule .If there were ppl of that level asu say then we also get numerous incident in shia book of there meeting with Imam/Guide but they were not that many and yes not only this but there are many more factors as well.
Sufayani etc r signs(ie- effects not cause) of the time near to reappearence.

You didn't get the point, did you? By putting all those conditions and signs, how can God blame people and put them into suffering? Some of them are just beyond human control.

The most appropriate one is to blame God himself (na'udzubillahi min dzalik). He put all those signs and conditions for re-appearance and then INDICRIMINATELY punished people and deprieve them from guidance NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE DO. 

And also, please remember that there are hundreds if not thousands of narrations in your books stating that the number of imam would be 12 and the 12th would go into occultation. It shows that occultation would come regardless. It was foretold. It is as if God purposely wants to deprieve human being from His guidance and punish His creation anyway.

You see. The deeper I go into Twelverism, the more confusing I become. But luckily I'm not alone. Twelvers in 3rd & 4th centuries Hijra were also the same.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Tbh soloman & link seem to reproduce the same philsophical mumbo jumbo again & again.
I could reproduce everything they say & replace the number 12 with another number & replace the word Imams with christ or saints yet the whole theme would still carry.

[Solomon]

You didn't get the point, did you? By putting all those conditions and signs, how can God blame people and put them into suffering? Some of them are just beyond human control.
And also, please remember that there are hundreds if not thousands of narrations in your books stating that the number of imam would be 12 and the 12th would go into occultation. It shows that occultation would come regardless. It was foretold. It is as if God purposely wants to deprieve human being from His guidance and punish His creation anyway.

As per islam in last era many different types of evil would be occuring and there r many signs of Doomsday would be closer as told by prophet(sawa) so this doesn't mean God purposely wanted evil to be spread on earth but it was as per situation & condition and it was in knowledge of Prophet so he foretold. Same way foretelling narrations related to occultation was in knowledge of Prophet and imams . As God purposely didn't wanted numerous evil to be spread but its b/c of ppl in same way he purposely didn't wanted ppl to be deprived but occultation was b/c of situation.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Your sig:

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"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla".


-----------------------------------
Astagfirullah. So you're saying Allah ordered the Prophet (SAW) to announce Ali's appointment as leader & Allah warned the Prophet (SAW) of the repurcussions if he didn't announce it i.e he (SAW) would have failed in his task.

Astagfirullah. You disgrace the Prophet (SAW) to elevate Ali.

[Hadrami]

Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

The current situation of 12er shias in the last 1000+yr is proof that we don't need imam (mahdi). Shia have replaced imam with fallible scholars. I don't see any refutation to this fact can hold any weight.

[Abu Muhammad]

Brother Solomon, you are still trying to clutch on a straw, aren't you? You are trying to make a anology but the anology you gave was not addressing the argument at all. You guys do not believe in qiyas but still trying to use one when in desperation. No wonder you failed miserably whenever you are trying to make one on anything.

My argument was that in Twelvers, occultation is already foretold in your imams' narrations. There are hundreds if not thousands of them in your books. Simply said, occultation would happened regardless. And for the re-appearance, according to Twelvers, there are signs and conditions and many of them are just beyond human control. Therefore, why does Allah put suffering to people by depriving them from the guidance of the imam whereas some of the conditions and signs are just beyond human control? It is as if God purposely wants to deprieve human being from His guidance and punish His creation anyway.

And out of sudden, you said:

As per islam in last era many different types of evil would be occuring and there r many signs of Doomsday would be closer as told by prophet(sawa) so this doesn't mean God purposely wanted evil to be spread on earth but it was as per situation & condition and it was in knowledge of Prophet so he foretold.

Same way foretelling narrations related to occultation was in knowledge of Prophet and imams . As God purposely didn't wanted numerous evil to be spread but its b/c of ppl in same way he purposely didn't wanted ppl to be deprived but occultation was b/c of situation.

Are you in your right frame of mind when you typed those? The only same theme in both your and my statements is "foretold story". But that's not the argument at all. The argument is why Allah punished people for things that are beyond their control.

Can't you comprehend that simple premise? Please try again...

The current situation of 12er shias in the last 1000+yr is proof that we don't need imam (mahdi). Shia have replaced imam with fallible scholars. I don't see any refutation to this fact can hold any weight.

Indeed brother.

[Abu Muhammad]

Brother Husayn's questions were:

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

And your answer was:

As said earlier there is a guide for every people and our prophet was a warner only as per Quran.
13:7- And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
These guides r infalliable imams and as for number 12 caliphs sahih bukhari helps us.

Great! Typical Twelvers response that does not addressing the questions. Read again the question carefully and try again.

And don't forget to respond to this too brother Solomon since this is the actual topic of this thread.

[Husayn]

This thread demonstrates the issue that the average 12ver has.

They are obsessed with proving the need for the 12 Imams "philosophically", but can provide no evidence for why we need them practically.

Ask any average 12ver to give you a single quote from al-Jawad that they cannot practise their deen without - and they will fail.

This is because the truth is, the only reason the 12vers need al-Jawad is simply to come up with 12 divinely appointed infallibles as a need of 'aqeedah.