Do we need the 12 Imams?

[Hani]

If their Imam `Ali al-Hadi died without a son, they would have claimed he had a hidden son and that this hidden son later got married and received another hidden child = 12.

[Solomon]

Brother Solomon, you are still trying to clutch on a straw, aren't you? You are trying to make a anology but the anology you gave was not addressing the argument at all. You guys do not believe in qiyas but still trying to use one when in desperation. No wonder you failed miserably whenever you are trying to make one on anything.

My argument was that in Twelvers, occultation is already foretold in your imams' narrations. There are hundreds if not thousands of them in your books. Simply said, occultation would happened regardless. And for the re-appearance, according to Twelvers, there are signs and conditions and many of them are just beyond human control. Therefore, why does Allah put suffering to people by depriving them from the guidance of the imam whereas some of the conditions and signs are just beyond human control? It is as if God purposely wants to deprieve human being from His guidance and punish His creation anyway.


Are you in your right frame of mind when you typed those? The only same theme in both your and my statements is "foretold story". But that's not the argument at all. The argument is why Allah punished people for things that are beyond their control.

Can't you comprehend that simple premise? Please try again...

Brohter I had quoted that examples of doomsday & last era foretold narrations to make u understand clearer not for analogy. Ok now I answer u directly the same question -
u asked- occultaion would come regardless, as it is foretold.
I say- NO,occultation is b/c of situation & condition of that era and it has been foretold b/c it's was in knowledge of Prophet and Imams.
u asked -  And for the re-appearance, according to Twelvers, there are signs and conditions and many of them are just beyond human control.
I say - Signs & conditions (are effects of era) which r foretold ,as these signs & conditions will be there at time of re-appearence. More the community will fullfill the supportive  & Godliness nature increases more signs(few natural & few effects of era) & condition will get manifested.

[Abu Muhammad]

Brohter I had quoted that examples of doomsday & last era foretold narrations to make u understand clearer not for analogy. Ok now I answer u directly the same question -
u asked- occultaion would come regardless, as it is foretold.
I say- NO,occultation is b/c of situation & condition of that era and it has been foretold b/c it's was in knowledge of Prophet and Imams.
u asked -  And for the re-appearance, according to Twelvers, there are signs and conditions and many of them are just beyond human control.
I say - Signs & conditions (are effects of era) which r foretold ,as these signs & conditions will be there at time of re-appearence. More the community will fullfill the supportive  & Godliness nature increases more signs(few natural & few effects of era) & condition will get manifested.

Are you saying that when the people become more supportive of the imam and increase in their godliness, Allah will start manifest those signs?

[Solomon]

^
God will manifest those few signs which r natural, as when time of re-appearance would be closer.
And as for sufiyani etc these are era based(effects) signs .

[Abu Muhammad]

^
God will manifest those few signs which r natural, as when time of re-appearance would be closer.
And as for sufiyani etc these are era based(effects) signs .

Brother, you didn't answer the question. The question was:

"Are you saying that when the people become more supportive of the imam and increase in their godliness, Allah will start manifest those signs?"

You didn't answer the original questions of this thread too:

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

[Solomon]

Brother, you didn't answer the question. The question was:

"Are you saying that when the people become more supportive of the imam and increase in their godliness, Allah will start manifest those signs?"

When ppl(that many which imam needs) become supportive & godly [then that will be the time closer to re-apearence] then God will manifest those [of natural]signs of time of re-appearence.

[Abu Muhammad]

Brother, you didn't answer the question. The question was:

"Are you saying that when the people become more supportive of the imam and increase in their godliness, Allah will start manifest those signs?"

When ppl(that many which imam needs) become supportive & godly [then that will be the time closer to re-apearence] then God will manifest those [of natural]signs of time of re-appearence.

Could you provide narrations of your imams to support that?

You didn't answer the original questions of this thread too:

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

You seemed like evading answering these questions? May I know why?

[Solomon]

Could you provide narrations of your imams to support that?

Honestly saying brother,I just remembered the concepts as ppl do, I don't remember exact narrations nor do I have time to go thru the books(as I read long ago)but there are various natural signs like -a call from sky etc etc(as I remembered) will occur just before time of re-appearence.

You seemed like evading answering these questions? May I know why?


1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

Nope,not evading, I wanted not to mix up our above discussion with other questions as there would have been multiple questions at a time

[Abu Muhammad]

Could you provide narrations of your imams to support that?

Honestly saying brother,I just remembered the concepts as ppl do, I don't remember exact narrations nor do I have time to go thru the books(as I read long ago)but there are various natural signs like -a call from sky etc etc(as I remembered) will occur just before time of re-appearence.

I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness. Are there any?

You seemed like evading answering these questions? May I know why?

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

Nope,not evading, I wanted not to mix up our above discussion with other questions as there would have been multiple questions at a time

If your reason was not to mix up, quote those questions and respond accordingly in a separate post then. It isn't that hard. 

You can start right after reading this post.

[Solomon]

I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness. Are there any?

As I said earlier I have to surf thru books to quote exact narrations, Anyways below narration
shows God appoints various [natural] signs for pious those who awaits for imam.

Narrated to us Abdullah bin Ja’far Himyari from Ahmad bin Hilal from Hasan bin Mahboob from Abi Ayyub Khazzaz and Alaa bin Razeen from Muhammad bin Muslim that he said: I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say: “Before the rising of the Qaim, Allah will appoint signs for the believers. I asked: What are those, may I be sacrificed on you? He replied: They are mentioned in the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime: That is before the advent of the Qaim the believers will be tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient means those who await for the reappearance." Shaykh Saduq, Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma Vol. 1
Below one shows order of Imam to adopt godliness & piety ,and if one goes thru narrations regarding companion of Imam Mahdi(as) those deals strictly with god-wariness
Imam Sadiq told his companions:"Whoever wishes to be a companion and close associate of our Qa'im should await deliverance through him. Moreover, such a person should adopt piety and virtuous life and continue to anticipate our Qa'im in that state."Nu'mani, Kitab al-ghayba, p. 211

As I said for more accurate narrations i've to go thru books closely again. I got above narrations quickly so I mentioned.

If your reason was not to mix up, quote those questions and respond accordingly in a separate post then. It isn't that hard. 

first end up above lengthy one brother

[Hani]

I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say: “Before the rising of the Qaim, Allah will appoint signs for the believers. I asked: What are those, may I be sacrificed on you? He replied: They are mentioned in the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime: That is before the advent of the Qaim the believers will be tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient means those who await for the reappearance."

Do you know why this doesn't make sense? Because believers were always tested with fear, hunger and loss of property in the time of `Ali and the other Imams. Also in the time of our prophet (saw), those other prophets before him and pretty much all throughout history.

As for the Shia, they lived in these miserable conditions and still do since Shiasm was created. In other words, the above narration serves no purpose and just stating the obvious. He might as well have said: "Before the Qaim, wars will happen." No Duh!

Many Shia left Tashayyu` due to the death of al-`Askari without children, those who later claimed he had a hidden son can only go too far, soon people started asking where is this son? He never appeared so in order to trick their followers to believing he exists, they made up narrations urging the faithful Shia to "await" this character, until now many still do but he is not in existence.

[Abu Muhammad]

I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness. Are there any?

As I said earlier I have to surf thru books to quote exact narrations, Anyways below narration
shows God appoints various [natural] signs for pious those who awaits for imam.

Narrated to us Abdullah bin Ja’far Himyari from Ahmad bin Hilal from Hasan bin Mahboob from Abi Ayyub Khazzaz and Alaa bin Razeen from Muhammad bin Muslim that he said: I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say: “Before the rising of the Qaim, Allah will appoint signs for the believers. I asked: What are those, may I be sacrificed on you? He replied: They are mentioned in the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime: That is before the advent of the Qaim the believers will be tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient means those who await for the reappearance." Shaykh Saduq, Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma Vol. 1

As I said for more accurate narrations i've to go thru books closely again. I got above narrations quickly so I mentioned.

Surf thru your books harder brother. Believers to be "tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits" is not a natural sign. In fact, not really sure you can take it as a que for a sign as brother Hani said since it happens throughout your history.

These are samples of natural signs before re-appearance of your imam according to Twelvers:
- There will be an eclipse of the sun in the middle of the month of Ramadan;
- There will be an eclipse of the moon at the end of that month in contrast to ordinary happenings;
- The land will be swallowed up at al-Bayda'; it will be swallowed in the east-it will be swallowed up in the west;
- The sun will stay still from the time of its decline to the middle of the time for the afternoon prayer.
- The sun will rise from the west;
- The star will appear in the east giving light just like the moon gives light; then (the new moon) will bend until its two tips almost meet;
- A colour will appear in the sky and spread to its horizons;
- A black wind will raise it at the beginning of the day and then an earthquake will occur so that much of it will be swallowed up;
- A cry (will come) from the sky (in such a way) that all the people will hear it in their own languages;
- A face and a chest will appear in the sky before the people in the centre of the sun;
- The dead will arise from their graves so that they will return to the world and they will recognize one another and visit one another; that will come to an end with twenty-four continuous rainstorms and the land will be revived by them after being dead and it will recognize its blessings;

Try to find narrations that relate manifestation of the above signs by Allah when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness.

Below one shows order of Imam to adopt godliness & piety ,and if one goes thru narrations regarding companion of Imam Mahdi(as) those deals strictly with god-wariness
Imam Sadiq told his companions:"Whoever wishes to be a companion and close associate of our Qa'im should await deliverance through him. Moreover, such a person should adopt piety and virtuous life and continue to anticipate our Qa'im in that state."Nu'mani, Kitab al-ghayba, p. 211

This narration does not answer the question that I asked.

If your reason was not to mix up, quote those questions and respond accordingly in a separate post then. It isn't that hard. 

first end up above lengthy one brother

Do we have a new rule in this forum that certain discussion needs to be concluded first before we move on to another discussion? Sounds more like evading to me. 

[zaid_ibn_ali]

The twelvers are in denial.
There is nothing historically or academically to place the '9th, 10th or 11th' Imams above any other sayid from the offspring of Ali during their times nor any proof that they were even scholars of a high repute.
Only twelver & some extremist sufi fairytales.

[Solomon]

I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness. Are there any?

As I said earlier I have to surf thru books to quote exact narrations, Anyways below narration
shows God appoints various [natural] signs for pious those who awaits for imam.

Narrated to us Abdullah bin Ja’far Himyari from Ahmad bin Hilal from Hasan bin Mahboob from Abi Ayyub Khazzaz and Alaa bin Razeen from Muhammad bin Muslim that he said: I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say: “Before the rising of the Qaim, Allah will appoint signs for the believers. I asked: What are those, may I be sacrificed on you? He replied: They are mentioned in the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime: That is before the advent of the Qaim the believers will be tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient means those who await for the reappearance." Shaykh Saduq, Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma Vol. 1

As I said for more accurate narrations i've to go thru books closely again. I got above narrations quickly so I mentioned.

Surf thru your books harder brother. Believers to be "tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits" is not a natural sign. In fact, not really sure you can take it as a que for a sign as brother Hani said since it happens throughout your history.

These are samples of natural signs before re-appearance of your imam according to Twelvers:
- There will be an eclipse of the sun in the middle of the month of Ramadan;
- There will be an eclipse of the moon at the end of that month in contrast to ordinary happenings;
- The land will be swallowed up at al-Bayda'; it will be swallowed in the east-it will be swallowed up in the west;
- The sun will stay still from the time of its decline to the middle of the time for the afternoon prayer.
- The sun will rise from the west;
- The star will appear in the east giving light just like the moon gives light; then (the new moon) will bend until its two tips almost meet;
- A colour will appear in the sky and spread to its horizons;
- A black wind will raise it at the beginning of the day and then an earthquake will occur so that much of it will be swallowed up;
- A cry (will come) from the sky (in such a way) that all the people will hear it in their own languages;
- A face and a chest will appear in the sky before the people in the centre of the sun;
- The dead will arise from their graves so that they will return to the world and they will recognize one another and visit one another; that will come to an end with twenty-four continuous rainstorms and the land will be revived by them after being dead and it will recognize its blessings;

Try to find narrations that relate manifestation of the above signs by Allah when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness.

Below one shows order of Imam to adopt godliness & piety ,and if one goes thru narrations regarding companion of Imam Mahdi(as) those deals strictly with god-wariness
Imam Sadiq told his companions:"Whoever wishes to be a companion and close associate of our Qa'im should await deliverance through him. Moreover, such a person should adopt piety and virtuous life and continue to anticipate our Qa'im in that state."Nu'mani, Kitab al-ghayba, p. 211

This narration does not answer the question that I asked.

The second narration which I quoted was just to show the order of Imam to increase godliness those who awaits . The first narration clearly shows "God will appoint the [natural]signs for those who awatits " As in same narration imam counted few natural signs like hunger,loss of property etc specific to most believers.[Any loss of property,lives etc ,if its from God, are natural signs]
But amazingly you quoted ten other signs and told to find narration which include those signs as well as reasons[of ppl being godly] and as well as including word god will manifest in a narration.
There r various narrations  but not all things of islamic eschatology in one narration
Let me remind u ur question

I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness.

[Abu Muhammad]

LOL!

Let me remind you my exact question.

I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness.

[Ebn Hussein]

Firstly,It's wrong he never guided. Infact Imam guided peoples ,even verbally, not only thru his 4 deputies during minor occultation but also during major occultation numerous incident of meeting of Imam with trustworthy grand scholars is in books.

Yes, the hidden Imams meets the great Iranian Ayatullats in secret, and many other Shias, telling them for example that smacking your head with knives and blade (is a form of hijamah lol) and Sunnah. Look, look, what a great guide:

How dare you disbelieving Sunnis doubt that he guides! HE DOES GUIDE! Our great scholars have written it down.

[Ebn Hussein]

I have given up discussing with Shiites about their non-sensical, non-Quranic blief of 12 divine guides. What strikes me to this very day is a sentence a Shia mater (from when I used to be a Shiite) throw at me, with no shame. He said (and it's a very typical Shia statement, I've met many who say things like that):

"I don't need the Qur'an, Sunnah or anything to prove Imamah (of 12 Imams), it's a logical necessity."

Them lot speaking of logic makes you wanna puke. They call the concept of 11 (alleged) infallible Imams living for around 250 years and the last one HIDDEN for over 1200 years as justice (Adl) and grace (Lutf) of Allah that was bestowed upon manking. Rafidism, a illogical religion full of contradictions.

[MuslimAnswers]

Yes, the hidden Imams meets the great Iranian Ayatullats in secret, and many other Shias, telling them for example that smacking your head with knives and blade (is a form of hijamah lol) and Sunnah. Look, look, what a great guide:

How dare you disbelieving Sunnis doubt that he guides! HE DOES GUIDE! Our great scholars have written it down.

Is there any formal discussion in their works of how claims to having met their "Infallible Imams" in person are taken into account?

As an analogy, in traditional Sunnism we do accept that people may see the Prophet (SAW) in dreams, yet if there is something in that dream that contradicts the Shariah as we have it transmitted this is rejected, and the fault is cast back to the spiritual deficiencies of the person experiencing the dream. So I am curious to know what is the "formal" consideration of this in the Twelver religion as far as the "Infallibles" are concerned.

[MuslimAnswers]

I have given up discussing with Shiites about their non-sensical, non-Quranic blief of 12 divine guides. What strikes me to this very day is a sentence a Shia mater (from when I used to be a Shiite) throw at me, with no shame. He said (and it's a very typical Shia statement, I've met many who say things like that):

"I don't need the Qur'an, Sunnah or anything to prove Imamah (of 12 Imams), it's a logical necessity."

Them lot speaking of logic makes you wanna puke. They call the concept of 11 (alleged) infallible Imams living for around 250 years and the last one HIDDEN for over 1200 years as justice (Adl) and grace (Lutf) of Allah that was bestowed upon manking. Rafidism, a illogical religion full of contradictions.

(I will talk of the traditional schools of Sunni theology and how they might look at this matter, I know some may disagree with the below but it is the traditional view of Sunnis in Sunni-majority and even in Shia-majority lands like Iraq, etc.)

The issue is quite obvious in fact: The Twelvers seem to be saying on the one hand that Allah is obliged to bring Takleef entwined together with absolute Hidaayah, thus reward and punishment are predicated in this way.

Yet this is not something we see throughout history, and even the Quran mentions that Allah does not punish a people until a Messenger is sent to them - it would seem trivial to mention this if Hidaayah was indeed present which obligated the Mukallaf to act in a certain way.

Also, if the Twelver says his final Imam is 'hidden', we would say that the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is alive in his grave and benefits the Muslims from beyond the veil of the unseen, it would be superfluous for Allah to place another Infallible who is not directly accessible while there is already one Infallible benefiting the Ummah in this manner.

[Link]

Also, if the Twelver says his final Imam is 'hidden', we would say that the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is alive in his grave and benefits the Muslims from beyond the veil of the unseen, it would be superfluous for Allah to place another Infallible who is not directly accessible while there is already one Infallible benefiting the Ummah in this manner.

Everyone can make this claim, but Quran shows after Abraham, Imammate was passed down his offspring and didn't stay with him.

Like wise this nation not only need this hidden guidance (Mohammad could of been the one to go ghayba and return) but they need a series of Guides and Successors who were among the people and who the people are tried with. This trial was a good trial on God and a grace just as it was always grace before.

God could of made Moses stay on earth and be the guide and go hidden, but it was not superfluous to appoint a series of leaders that guide by God's command, 12 Captains that ways to God and who people should not mix from drinking their place uncertain water and falsehood with their truth.

This has a wisdom, the number 12 has a wisdom, and Elijah going into hidding and then after Zakeriya and Yahya and Isa, being the one who takes this mantle of spiritual guidance also had a wisdom.

Jesus is to a play a role to come, but he being the spiritual guide on earth is not one of them, but as the hadiths show, he will return while the Imam is among us and pray behind Imam Mahdi.

There is a wisdom in all this, if I or a Shia cannot articulate, it doesn't make it go away.

Part of the wisdom is that first people are tried with real rope from God that is physically present, and see how they act towards God through them. Then when they are not present among us, see who mixes with their authority others and demolishes the whole foundation of God's door and submission with tainted leadership and unproven authority.

This is a trial that has been repeated. The boat in the waves when things get hard for some reason those on it become sincere and worship God sincerely. Then when they are brought to safety and reach the promise of God, they rebel like Bani-Israel began to rebel after Moses brought them to safety.

This cycle repeats itself but the Mahdi is a long trial, because the cycle this time must stop. This time people will come to the truth and the earth will be illuminated by God's light through Imam Mahdi.

This time we will have to wait to the extent that is a guarantee that when people are brought to safety they will not assoicate in the divine leadership which is linked to God's Kingship the likes of the Samiri etc, but rather submit to the clean pure stream and enter the door that God has opened for them.

There is wisdom in sealing revelations and in sealing the divinely appointed leaders, so, and keeping that guidance of Abraham on earth in a remanent of pure family from his offspring. It has wisdom.

The Quran elaborates on it, manifests it's beauty, and shows it.  People will have to awaken to the arguments of the need of  a chosen one from God and guidance that is tread by him, and the world will have to want justice and to be ruled by it.

The world will recognize the need of a ruler and authority from God. It's bound to happen, we pray to be of those who speed up the process that leads to that and not be of those who delay it.