Ghadeer Khum

[Hani]

Ok. You don't want to answer my question, no problem. I will answer yours, without a shadow of a doubt. I am going to put two very familiar verses from the Quran forward which clearly proves that there is a third authority, chosen and put in place by Allah. Before this third authority is introduced Allah has mentioned the first two authorities before and alongside this third authority. Why??? Just to show the importance of this third authority by mentioning it alongside and bringing it in line with the other two main authorities. Allah could have introduced this third authority by mentioning it by itself and on its own. But Allah didn't do that. Why??? So there is no confusion what so ever and no suspicion can be raised and no doubt can be casted about the acceptance and obedience to this third authority. The two verses are; 1, Ateeullaha, Wa Atee ur Rasool, Wa Ulul Amre minkum. 2, Innama Waliyo kumullaho, Wa Rasoolahu, Walazeena Amanoo. Now one can't deny that there is a third authority that has been introduced and put in to place alongside and in line with the other two main authorities.

LOL MAN! I did answer it! I said: "Yes sir", thus affirming.


So your evidence that a successor is appointed are two verses:


One says obey the Prophet (saw) and those in authority.


The other says our Awliya' are Allah and the Prophet (saw) and the believers.


Great stuff man, but I fail to see where it says someone needs to be appointed as successor?


Where is that?

[Ameen]

Ok. You don't want to answer my question, no problem. I will answer yours, without a shadow of a doubt. I am going to put two very familiar verses from the Quran forward which clearly proves that there is a third authority, chosen and put in place by Allah. Before this third authority is introduced Allah has mentioned the first two authorities before and alongside this third authority. Why??? Just to show the importance of this third authority by mentioning it alongside and bringing it in line with the other two main authorities. Allah could have introduced this third authority by mentioning it by itself and on its own. But Allah didn't do that. Why??? So there is no confusion what so ever and no suspicion can be raised and no doubt can be casted about the acceptance and obedience to this third authority. The two verses are; 1, Ateeullaha, Wa Atee ur Rasool, Wa Ulul Amre minkum. 2, Innama Waliyo kumullaho, Wa Rasoolahu, Walazeena Amanoo. Now one can't deny that there is a third authority that has been introduced and put in to place alongside and in line with the other two main authorities.

LOL MAN! I did answer it! I said: "Yes sir", thus affirming.


So your evidence that a successor is appointed are two verses:


One says obey the Prophet (saw) and those in authority.


The other says our Awliya' are Allah and the Prophet (saw) and the believers.


Great stuff man, but I fail to see where it says someone needs to be appointed as successor?


Where is that?

So where did you answer??? Did the Prophet (pbuh) name and appoint a successor??? If not then what did he advise on who and how should govern the Ummah and it's affairs??? Both verses clearly and surely tell that there is a third party who have been put in authority straight after the Messenger (pbuh). This is clear appointment of a third authority. Now if you want to duck and dive then that is down to you.

[Hani]

Let me quote you:

did the Prophet (pbuh) pass away without naming and appointing someone to govern after him?

Now let me quote myself:

Yes sir

[Hani]

Both verses clearly and surely tell that there is a third party who have been put in authority straight after the Messenger (pbuh). This is clear appointment of a third authority. Now if you want to duck and dive then that is down to you.

Great, there's a third party who has authority.


Just like there were governors, judges and army commanders who were in authority in the time of the Prophet (saw).


I don't care about this, I ask: You guys claim that there is an appointed successor, the verses above don't mention anything about an appointed successor.

[Hani]

Let me make it simpler,


You quoted two verses both stating that some individuals had authority, both verses used singular for Allah, singular for the Prophet, and plural for those in authority "Ulil-Amr" & "Wal-Mu'mineen".


Thus you've proven that a number of people were in charge or in authority and this is something we all believe in as Muslims.


The Prophet (saw) had governors to rule lands, he had judges whom he sent to judge between people, he had army commanders whom he appointed to lead his men, he had princes of pilgrimage who would lead people to Hajj, he had deputies whom he would appoint in Madinah whenever he left etc... All of them picked by him and all of them were in authority and we were ordered to OBEY anyone that the Prophet (saw) placed in charge of us.


However, you wanted to prove based on your question "Didn't the Prophet (saw) appoint a successor to govern the people after he dies?"


So you wanted to prove that a man was chosen and appointed to govern after the passing of the Prophet (saw) as his successor, and these verses do not prove this.

[Bolani Muslim]

Salaam brother.
Lets leave Shia version of Imamath out of this for a minute. Abraham (as) was made an Imam by his Lord after he was tried. So would you accept that Imamath does exist??? Allah does chose and make Imams??? And my final question that what is your opinion, was Abraham (as) promoted, demoted or was he given a title of a similar level??? Humble request, please do not duck and dive or twist and turn like all brothers do when asked. I would definitely like a positive answer. Please answer to the best of your ability.
Wassalaam!

Salaam,
Imam just means leader (eg. imam khomeini)
The Quran also puts a bad light on imams too
"Fight the Imaams of kufr" (at-Tawbah : 12)
"And We made them Imaams who call towards the Fire" (al-Qasas : 41)
(found it on Facebook)
So yes imammat/leadership does exist

[Hani]

Salaam,
Imam just means leader (eg. imam khomeini)
The Quran also puts a bad light on imams too
"Fight the Imaams of kufr" (at-Tawbah : 12)
"And We made them Imaams who call towards the Fire" (al-Qasas : 41)
(found it on Facebook)
So yes imammat/leadership does exist

You know how silly Shia sound when they say "Imamah is greater than Prophethood"?


Imamah simply means "Leadership", it's as if they're saying "Leadership if greater than Prophethood." Which is absolutely not true! Anyone can be a leader! Khomayni was a leader! Abu Bakr was a leader! But neither of them was a Prophet nor would they ever reach the position and status of Prophet.


SubhanAllah!?

[Ameen]

Both verses clearly and surely tell that there is a third party who have been put in authority straight after the Messenger (pbuh). This is clear appointment of a third authority. Now if you want to duck and dive then that is down to you.

Great, there's a third party who has authority.


Just like there were governors, judges and army commanders who were in authority in the time of the Prophet (saw).


I don't care about this, I ask: You guys claim that there is an appointed successor, the verses above don't mention anything about an appointed successor.

Well it's about time you started caring and paying attention. Governors, judges and commanders or anyone else in authority are chosen by the people. The two verses speak about Allah bringing in a third authority and power, which has to do with religion. You have religious authority and you have civilian. There is a very clear difference. You can't deny or dismiss the fact that Allah has brought and put forward a third power in authority, right alongside and in line with him and his Messenger (pbuh).

[Ameen]

Let me make it simpler,


You quoted two verses both stating that some individuals had authority, both verses used singular for Allah, singular for the Prophet, and plural for those in authority "Ulil-Amr" & "Wal-Mu'mineen".


Thus you've proven that a number of people were in charge or in authority and this is something we all believe in as Muslims.


The Prophet (saw) had governors to rule lands, he had judges whom he sent to judge between people, he had army commanders whom he appointed to lead his men, he had princes of pilgrimage who would lead people to Hajj, he had deputies whom he would appoint in Madinah whenever he left etc... All of them picked by him and all of them were in authority and we were ordered to OBEY anyone that the Prophet (saw) placed in charge of us.


However, you wanted to prove based on your question "Didn't the Prophet (saw) appoint a successor to govern the people after he dies?"


So you wanted to prove that a man was chosen and appointed to govern after the passing of the Prophet (saw) as his successor, and these verses do not prove this.

If the Prophet (pbuh) didn't name and appoint someone to govern after him, then what did he say and advise??? or didn't he bother with this important issue??? The companions thought it was very important and they didn't waste any time about it. The first Khalif (ra) did name and appoint his successor and the second Khalif (ra) was also very concerned about who should succeed him. He also made preparations for this.

[Ameen]

Salaam brother.
Lets leave Shia version of Imamath out of this for a minute. Abraham (as) was made an Imam by his Lord after he was tried. So would you accept that Imamath does exist??? Allah does chose and make Imams??? And my final question that what is your opinion, was Abraham (as) promoted, demoted or was he given a title of a similar level??? Humble request, please do not duck and dive or twist and turn like all brothers do when asked. I would definitely like a positive answer. Please answer to the best of your ability.
Wassalaam!

Salaam,
Imam just means leader (eg. imam khomeini)
The Quran also puts a bad light on imams too
"Fight the Imaams of kufr" (at-Tawbah : 12)
"And We made them Imaams who call towards the Fire" (al-Qasas : 41)
(found it on Facebook)
So yes imammat/leadership does exist

Salaam brother. We have people made and chosen Imams, like you mentioned Khomenie. You also have Aimah e Arbaa, the four Imams of the Ahle Sunnah schools of thought. My point is that does Imamath exist in the Quran and has Allah chosen and made someone an Imam???

[Ameen]

Salaam,
Imam just means leader (eg. imam khomeini)
The Quran also puts a bad light on imams too
"Fight the Imaams of kufr" (at-Tawbah : 12)
"And We made them Imaams who call towards the Fire" (al-Qasas : 41)
(found it on Facebook)
So yes imammat/leadership does exist

Like i said what ever shia sound to you, lets leave this out for a second. Was Abraham (as) promoted, demoted or was he given a title/grade of a similar level/standard??? Come on and answer up!




You know how silly Shia sound when they say "Imamah is greater than Prophethood"?


Imamah simply means "Leadership", it's as if they're saying "Leadership if greater than Prophethood." Which is absolutely not true! Anyone can be a leader! Khomayni was a leader! Abu Bakr was a leader! But neither of them was a Prophet nor would they ever reach the position and status of Prophet.


SubhanAllah!?

[Husayn]

@ Ameen

Well it's about time you started caring and paying attention. Governors, judges and commanders or anyone else in authority are chosen by the people. The two verses speak about Allah bringing in a third authority and power, which has to do with religion. You have religious authority and you have civilian. There is a very clear difference. You can't deny or dismiss the fact that Allah has brought and put forward a third power in authority, right alongside and in line with him and his Messenger (pbuh).

Ofcourse we can't deny or dismiss that fact - because Ahlul Sunnah are not in the habit of dismissing very obvious and clear things.

What we do deny or dismiss is that it has anything to do with succession - which it doesn't.

It is addressed to the Muslims of the Prophet's time, and is telling them to obey Allah, His Messenger, and whoever His Messenger puts in charge, such as governors, generals, e.t.c.

If the Prophet (pbuh) didn't name and appoint someone to govern after him, then what did he say and advise??? or didn't he bother with this important issue??? The companions thought it was very important and they didn't waste any time about it. The first Khalif (ra) did name and appoint his successor and the second Khalif (ra) was also very concerned about who should succeed him. He also made preparations for this.

Here you go:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/how-could-the-prophet-(saws)-not-appoint-a-successor-best-refutations/

This has been answered many times, and is a common Shia misconception.

Infact, the concept of succession in Shiasm is the one that makes no sense.

Salaam brother. We have people made and chosen Imams, like you mentioned Khomenie. You also have Aimah e Arbaa, the four Imams of the Ahle Sunnah schools of thought. My point is that does Imamath exist in the Quran and has Allah chosen and made someone an Imam???

Yes, ofcourse, but the only similarity between Imamah in the Qur'an, and the Imamah of Shiaism, is the word.

The concept of Imamah in Shiaism is a very strange and mystical concept, more common to pagan religions than Islam.

Ibrahim (as) was made an Imam after he passed certain trials - Imams in Shiaism were created before the universe even existed, floating around the throne of Allah (swt), they become Imams when they are born, and when the preceding Imam dies the next Imam magically receives all of his knowledge e.t.c.

[Ameen]

@ Ameen

Well it's about time you started caring and paying attention. Governors, judges and commanders or anyone else in authority are chosen by the people. The two verses speak about Allah bringing in a third authority and power, which has to do with religion. You have religious authority and you have civilian. There is a very clear difference. You can't deny or dismiss the fact that Allah has brought and put forward a third power in authority, right alongside and in line with him and his Messenger (pbuh).

Ofcourse we can't deny or dismiss that fact - because Ahlul Sunnah are not in the habit of dismissing very obvious and clear things.

What we do deny or dismiss is that it has anything to do with succession - which it doesn't.

It is addressed to the Muslims of the Prophet's time, and is telling them to obey Allah, His Messenger, and whoever His Messenger puts in charge, such as governors, generals, e.t.c.

If the Prophet (pbuh) didn't name and appoint someone to govern after him, then what did he say and advise??? or didn't he bother with this important issue??? The companions thought it was very important and they didn't waste any time about it. The first Khalif (ra) did name and appoint his successor and the second Khalif (ra) was also very concerned about who should succeed him. He also made preparations for this.

Here you go:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/how-could-the-prophet-(saws)-not-appoint-a-successor-best-refutations/

This has been answered many times, and is a common Shia misconception.

Infact, the concept of succession in Shiasm is the one that makes no sense.

Salaam brother. We have people made and chosen Imams, like you mentioned Khomenie. You also have Aimah e Arbaa, the four Imams of the Ahle Sunnah schools of thought. My point is that does Imamath exist in the Quran and has Allah chosen and made someone an Imam???

Yes, ofcourse, but the only similarity between Imamah in the Qur'an, and the Imamah of Shiaism, is the word.

The concept of Imamah in Shiaism is a very strange and mystical concept, more common to pagan religions than Islam.

Ibrahim (as) was made an Imam after he passed certain trials - Imams in Shiaism were created before the universe even existed, floating around the throne of Allah (swt), they become Imams when they are born, and when the preceding Imam dies the next Imam magically receives all of his knowledge e.t.c.

Salaam brother. All you are doing is accusing me of misunderstanding and misconception which is a common thing and can work both ways. Anyway, the Ahle Sunnah faith and belief is based on and evolves around justifying and proving incidents and events that have taken place by certain companions. What ever went on and how it went on by the companions, after the demise of the Prophe(pbuh) the Ahle Sunnah just want to justify and prove it. And the best way for them to do it, is not by discussing and debating it but by trying to find weaknesses and grey areas concerning Shiaism. Fine way to go don't you think???

[Husayn]

@ Ameen

Salaam brother. All you are doing is accusing me of misunderstanding and misconception which is a common thing and can work both ways. Anyway, the Ahle Sunnah faith and belief is based on and evolves around justifying and proving incidents and events that have taken place by certain companions. What ever went on and how it went on by the companions, after the demise of the Prophe(pbuh) the Ahle Sunnah just want to justify and prove it. And the best way for them to do it, is not by discussing and debating it but by trying to find weaknesses and grey areas concerning Shiaism. Fine way to go don't you think???

No, you are completely and utterly wrong.

Ahlul Sunnah spend maybe 5% of the amount of time that Shias do in addressing these issues - and it is mainly to refute the lies of the Shias. The Shia religion, on the other hand, spends 99% of its time on these issues, because they need to keep refreshing their excuses every so often, as the excuses are always very flimsy.

[Ameen]

Brother Husayn, you need to know and learn a lot about Shia Imamath, rather than relying on gossip and rumours. This seems to be the issue with most of you. Shias believe in divine Imamath. When the Prophet (pbuh) was asked, "when did you become a Messenger???" the Prophet (pbuh) replied, "i was a Messenger even when Adam was being created". So my dear brother, if the Prophet (pbuh) can float around Allah's throne well before his time, during the creation of Adam (as) then, what seems to be the problem for a divine Imam??? What is difficult for Allah??? The issue here is divine Imamath after the Messenger (pbuh). Floating around Allah's throne well before your time is not an issue and there is nothing mystical or magical about it. Even the great Ahle Sunnah scholar, Allama Tahirul Qadari, believes that Angels used to come to Hazrath Fatmah's (as) house to cradle Hassan and Hussain (as) during their infancy.

[Ameen]

Brother Husayn, Shias believe in divine leadership after Muhammad (pbuh) and Sunnis just go with who ever, how ever and what ever came and got in to power after the Messenger (pbuh). Some Sunnis believe that Yazeed was the 6th Khalif of the Muslims and some believe that he was the 7th. It depends on and Sunnis differ on the 6 month khilafath of Hazrath Hassan (as). Some bring this in to account and others don't.

[Hani]

Well it's about time you started caring and paying attention. Governors, judges and commanders or anyone else in authority are chosen by the people. The two verses speak about Allah bringing in a third authority and power, which has to do with religion. You have religious authority and you have civilian. There is a very clear difference. You can't deny or dismiss the fact that Allah has brought and put forward a third power in authority, right alongside and in line with him and his Messenger (pbuh).

No, the Prophet (saw) was the one who appointed the governors, judges, commanders etc... He does so by revelation as well.


The Prophet (saw) used to appoint Emirs and always said: "Whoever obeys the Emir obeys me."


So no, I don't agree with your weird conclusion.

[Hani]

Shia said:

If the Prophet (pbuh) didn't name and appoint someone to govern after him, then what did he say and advise??? or didn't he bother with this important issue??? The companions thought it was very important and they didn't waste any time about it. The first Khalif (ra) did name and appoint his successor and the second Khalif (ra) was also very concerned about who should succeed him. He also made preparations for this.

Don't worry, he gave loads of instructions and advice. He (saw) was not worried, he knew the fate of his nation and Allah reassured him.

Salaam brother. We have people made and chosen Imams, like you mentioned Khomenie. You also have Aimah e Arbaa, the four Imams of the Ahle Sunnah schools of thought. My point is that does Imamath exist in the Quran and has Allah chosen and made someone an Imam???

You're asking if "leadership" exists? seriously? Next you're going to ask if "wives" exist?

Shias believe in divine Imamath.

Oh divine Imamah? I thought you only believed in Imamah, what's the evidence that such a thing as "divine Imamah" exists?


Allah only mentioned the word "Imam" in his book, it refers to the leadership of good as well as bad people, I don't recall any mention of "divine Imamah".

what seems to be the problem for a divine Imam??? What is difficult for Allah???

Is protecting the nation and religion too hard for Allah? Can he do it without the appointment of a man?

Sunnah scholar, Allama Tahirul Qadari, believes that Angels used to come to Hazrath Fatmah's (as) house to cradle Hassan and Hussain (as) during their infancy.

My mom says Angels used to descend and cradle me when I was a baby.

[Ameen]

Well it's about time you started caring and paying attention. Governors, judges and commanders or anyone else in authority are chosen by the people. The two verses speak about Allah bringing in a third authority and power, which has to do with religion. You have religious authority and you have civilian. There is a very clear difference. You can't deny or dismiss the fact that Allah has brought and put forward a third power in authority, right alongside and in line with him and his Messenger (pbuh).

No, the Prophet (saw) was the one who appointed the governors, judges, commanders etc... He does so by revelation as well.


The Prophet (saw) used to appoint Emirs and always said: "Whoever obeys the Emir obeys me."


So no, I don't agree with your weird conclusion.

Oh, so the Prophet (pbuh) also said "Mann Kunthum Maula fa haza Aliyun Maula" but here you seem to kick off all the seriousness concerning this issue. Where does the obedience go here?? You just try to water certain things down by looking and giving the word "Maula" other meanings. Why don't you take all these matters and study them carefully, do some homework on them and then come kicking around.

[Hani]

Oh, so the Prophet (pbuh) also said "Mann Kunthum Maula fa haza Aliyun Maula" but here you seem to kick off all the seriousness concerning this issue. Where does the obedience go here?? You just try to water certain things down by looking and giving the word "Maula" other meanings. Why don't you take all these matters and study them carefully, do some homework on them and then come kicking around.

See you had to resort to Hadith al-Ghadeer, we were discussing Qur'anic evidence and you HAD to resort to Ghadeer.


Is the Book of Allah devoid of evidence?

Also you say:
"Why don't you take all these matters and study them carefully"

This is silly coming from a Shia since you guys give Hadith-ul-Ghadeer an explanation that contradicts the entirety of the Sunnah.