TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: ZulFiqar on July 06, 2017, 05:38:34 AM
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The Imamiya Shi’a assert that Hadith al-Manzila is a critical proof text for the Prophet ﷺ having named sayyidina Ali b. Abi TalibRA as his successor. The standard Sunni reply to this argument is that, although Hadith al-Manzila is an important Hadith regarding the virtue and excellence of sayyidina AliRA, it is not a proof for him being the divinely appointed Imam after the death of the Prophet ﷺ. Undoubtedly, the Sunni response has merit because the context of this Hadith is concerning the absence of the Prophet ﷺ from Medina due to his going on the expedition of Tabuk, and leaving behind sayyidina AliRA as his minister and chosen representative for the duration of his absence only. Here is where the parable of Prophets Moses and Aaron is especially relevant: “O Ali, are you not happy that your position to me is like the position of Aaron to Moses, except that there is no Prophet after me.” Now it is known that the Prophet Moses only appointed his elder brother Aaron as his chosen representative for the duration of his absence – the forty nights when he went up to Mt. Sinai to receive the Torah from God. Aaron was not named as Prophet Moses’s successor to succeed him after his death. In fact, Aaron, being older than Moses, died in the latter’s own lifetime. The successor of Prophet Moses after his death was Prophet Joshua son of Nun. Now had the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ compared sayyidina AliRA to Joshua, the argument of the Imamiya Shi’a that he intended to designate AliRA as his successor after his death would certainly hold water.
Coming to the concluding words of the Hadith “except there is no Prophet after me”, mainstream Ulama understand this to be an explicit and strong proof that the Prophet ﷺ meant there could be no Prophet after his death. Hence they interpret بعدى Ba’di or “after me” to mean “after my death there is no Prophet to come”. But this interpretation of Ba’di is inconsistent with the overall Sunni interpretation of the Hadith.
The Prophet ﷺ compared AliRA to Prophet Aaron but then qualified that comparison by saying “there is no Prophet after me” because Aaron is a Prophet, and people might wrongly imagine that Ali being compared to Aaron means Ali is likewise a Prophet. So far so good except for the fact that Aaron died in the lifetime of Prophet Moses, the Prophet who came after Moses was Joshua as I clarified earlier. Therefore, the correct meaning of La Nabi Ba’di in this context is “there is no other Prophet in my absence”, like Aaron was a Prophet who lead the Bani Israel during the temporary absence of Prophet Moses when he went up to Mt. Sinai.
So the word Ba’d “after” in the Hadith al-Manzila needs to be understood in relation to the absence of Prophet Moses for 40 nights:
وَإِذْ وَاعَدْنَا مُوسَىٰ أَرْبَعِينَ لَيْلَةً ثُمَّ اتَّخَذْتُمُ الْعِجْلَ مِن بَعْدِهِ
And when we appointed for Moses forty nights, then you took the calf (in worship) in his absence [min Ba’dihi]
Sura 2:51
ثُمَّ اتَّخَذْتُمُ الْعِجْلَ مِن بَعْدِهِ
Then you took the calf (in worship) in his absence [min Ba’dihi]
وَاتَّخَذَ قَوْمُ مُوسَىٰ مِن بَعْدِهِ مِنْ حُلِيِّهِمْ عِجْلًا جَسَدًا لَّهُ خُوَارٌ
And the people of Moses took, in his absence [min Ba’dihi] out of their ornaments, a statue of a calf
Sura 7:148
وَلَمَّا رَجَعَ مُوسَىٰ إِلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ غَضْبَانَ أَسِفًا قَالَ بِئْسَمَا خَلَفْتُمُونِي مِن بَعْدِي
And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said: “what an evil thing you have done during my absence [min Ba’di]"
Sura 7:150
If one interprets the Hadith al-Manzila where the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ said “except there is no Prophet after me” as meaning, there will be no Prophet after I die, instead of restricting the meaning of this phrase to mean “no other Prophet in my absence”, one is in fact inadvertently giving ammunition to the Imamiya Shi’a. If anyone has seen Ammar Nakhshwani’s old lecture Analysis of Hadith al Manzilah they will know exactly what I mean. According to the Shi’a, by saying “there is no Prophet after me”, the Prophet was hinting at Ali being his successor “after him” meaning after his death. Only if Ba’di is interpreted as “in my absence” can the Sunnis satisfactorily answer the doubt of the Imamiya Shi’a.
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According to the Holy Qur'an, Jesus said that a Messenger named Ahmad will come after his death:
وَمُبَشِّرًا بِرَسُولٍ يَأْتِي مِن بَعْدِي اسْمُهُ أَحْمَدُ
I give glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, his name is Ahmad (Sura 61:6)
Now this was a prophecy about Prophet Muhammad, whose other name is Ahmad صلى الله عليه وسلم
Jesus said "Min Ba'di" which can only mean after my death. If Jesus was still alive when the Prophet Muhammad was born, he would not have said "after me".
أَمْ كُنتُمْ شُهَدَاءَ إِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوبَ الْمَوْتُ إِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيهِ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن بَعْدِي
Or were you witnesses when death came to Jacob; when he said to his sons: "Who will you worship after me?" (2:133)
Jacob said who will you worship MIN BA'DI "after me" meaning "After my death"
Likewise the King Solomon prayed:
قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّن بَعْدِي
He said: "My Lord forgive me and grant me a Kingdom such as shall not be given to anyone after my death" (38:25)
Solomon said no one should be granted such a kingdom MIN BA'DI "after me" meaning "after my death"[/size]
Again your argument is weak and irrational. You say it ONLY means after his death, but the correct answer is that, it can ALSO mean after my departure.
Like how Ibn Katheer used the word Ba'adah for Isa(as).
" فإن المسيح عليه السلام لمَّا رفعه الله إلى السماء : تَفَرَّقت أصحابه شيَعًا بعده
Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said in Tafseer Ibn Katheer (2/47): When Allah took the Messiah (peace be upon him) up to heaven/sky, his followers split into sects after he was gone.
Also take a note that, Min Ba'di doesn't necessarily apply the condition of death. For example Prophet(Saws) said:
النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ لِعَلِيٍّ " أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي "
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: that the Prophet (ﷺ) said to 'Ali: "You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa, except that there is no Prophet after me." [Jam'i al-Tirmidhi. Book 49, Hadith 4095; Sahih]
Prophet(saws) compared Ali(ra) to Haroon(as) who was Prophet during time of Musa(as), that is why Prophet(saws) said that there will be no Prophet after him, be it in his lifetime or death. Haroon(as) died during the lifetime of Musa(as), but when Prophet Muhammad(saws) compared him to Ali(ra), he had to end any possibility of doubt regarding finality of Prophethood, be it in his life time or after his death, hence he used the words "AFTER ME" which aren't restricted of death alone
P.S: This was my response to your argument in the other thread.
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Also take a note that, Min Ba'di doesn't necessarily apply the condition of death. For example Prophet(Saws) said:
النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ لِعَلِيٍّ " أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي "
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: that the Prophet (ﷺ) said to 'Ali: "You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa, except that there is no Prophet after me." [Jam'i al-Tirmidhi. Book 49, Hadith 4095; Sahih]
Prophet(saws) compared Ali(ra) to Haroon(as) who was Prophet during time of Musa(as), that is why Prophet(saws) said that there will be no Prophet after him, be it in his lifetime or death. Haroon(as) died during the lifetime of Musa(as), but when Prophet Muhammad(saws) compared him to Ali(ra), he had to end any possibility of doubt regarding finality of Prophethood, be it in his life time or after his death, hence he used the words "AFTER ME" which aren't restricted of death alone
P.S: This was my response to your argument in the other thread.
Firstly I'm glad that you agree that in the Hadith al-Manzila, when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said "La Nabiy Ba'di" you have interpreted "Min Ba'di doesn't necessarily apply the condition of death" (your words)
Now if you are implying that I am contradicting myself by stating in that other thread that Ba'di means "after my death" and here I am arguing it means "in my absence", then you have altogether overlooked the crucial element of context.
My argument is not linguistic but contextual. The word ba'd has multiple meanings, including absence. It is the context of its usage which will determine its correct meaning. Here the context quite manifestly means absence as you yourself admitted. There, in Sura 61:6, there is no indication of a temporary absence. But here, all the verses I have quoted concerning Prophet Moses make plain the meaning of Ba'd as absence and not death.
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Yep, seems to be linguistically proper. I don't have an issue with interpreting it as "in my absence." But I'd have to double check in the Ma'ajim to make sure it's accurate.
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Firstly I'm glad that you agree that in the Hadith al-Manzila, when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said "La Nabiy Ba'di" you have interpreted "Min Ba'di doesn't necessarily apply the condition of death" (your words)
Now if you are implying that I am contradicting myself by stating in that other thread that Ba'di means "after my death" and here I am arguing it means "in my absence", then you have altogether overlooked the crucial element of context.
My argument is not linguistic but contextual. The word ba'd has multiple meanings, including absence. It is the context of its usage which will determine its correct meaning. Here the context quite manifestly means absence as you yourself admitted. There, in Sura 61:6, there is no indication of a temporary absence. But here, all the verses I have quoted concerning Prophet Moses make plain the meaning of Ba'd as absence and not death.
In Surah 61:6, its not clear about temporary absence nor death, hence we Ahlus-sunnah interpret that verse and the meaning of Ba'd in the light of Prophetic ahadeeth. Hence as per Prophetic ahadeeth, we come to know that the verse is talking about not death.
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Coming to the concluding words of the Hadith “except there is no Prophet after me”, mainstream Ulama understand this to be an explicit and strong proof that the Prophet ﷺ meant there could be no Prophet after his death. Hence they interpret بعدى Ba’di or “after me” to mean “after my death there is no Prophet to come”. But this interpretation of Ba’di is inconsistent with the overall Sunni interpretation of the Hadith.
....Only if Ba’di is interpreted as “in my absence” can the Sunnis satisfactorily answer the doubt of the Imamiya Shi’a.[/size][/font]
I don't get what point you are trying to make. Anyways let me assume your argument and post these reports.
حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي أَسْمَاءَ الرَّحَبِيِّ، عَنْ ثَوْبَانَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَلْحَقَ قَبَائِلُ مِنْ أُمَّتِي بِالْمُشْرِكِينَ وَحَتَّى يَعْبُدُوا الأَوْثَانَ وَإِنَّهُ سَيَكُونُ فِي أُمَّتِي ثَلاَثُونَ كَذَّابُونَ كُلُّهُمْ يَزْعُمُ أَنَّهُ نَبِيٌّ وَأَنَا خَاتَمُ النَّبِيِّينَ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي
Thawban narrated that the Messenger of Allah(s.a.w) said: "The Hour shall not be established until tribes of my Ummah unite with the idolaters, and until they worship idols. And indeed there shall be thirty imposters in my Ummah,each of them claiming that he is a Prophet. And I am the last of the Prophets, there is no Prophet after me."[Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2219; Sahih]
قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " فَإِنِّي آخِرُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَإِنَّهُ آخِرُ الْمَسَاجِدِ
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I am the last of the prophets and it is the last of the Masjids. [Sunan an-Nasa'i 694: Sahih]
In another narration:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)
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I don't get what point you are trying to make. Anyways let me assume your argument and post these reports.
حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي أَسْمَاءَ الرَّحَبِيِّ، عَنْ ثَوْبَانَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَلْحَقَ قَبَائِلُ مِنْ أُمَّتِي بِالْمُشْرِكِينَ وَحَتَّى يَعْبُدُوا الأَوْثَانَ وَإِنَّهُ سَيَكُونُ فِي أُمَّتِي ثَلاَثُونَ كَذَّابُونَ كُلُّهُمْ يَزْعُمُ أَنَّهُ نَبِيٌّ وَأَنَا خَاتَمُ النَّبِيِّينَ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي
Thawban narrated that the Messenger of Allah(s.a.w) said: "The Hour shall not be established until tribes of my Ummah unite with the idolaters, and until they worship idols. And indeed there shall be thirty imposters in my Ummah,each of them claiming that he is a Prophet. And I am the last of the Prophets, there is no Prophet after me."[Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2219; Sahih]
My point is not to deny that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last of the Prophets. Of course he is the Last. But incidentally, your belief in the Nuzul al-Masih is an apparent violation of the Finality of Prophethood. If Sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet, then how can Jesus, who is a Prophet, come in the future?
قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " فَإِنِّي آخِرُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَإِنَّهُ آخِرُ الْمَسَاجِدِ
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I am the last of the prophets and it is the last of the Masjids. [Sunan an-Nasa'i 694: Sahih]
In fact this Hadith is authentic and reported in Sahih Muslim, though you have quoted it from Nasa'i sharif. And this Hadith is very beneficial in clarifying the reality of Khatam-an-Nubuwwah, because we know that the Prophet's Mosque in Medina is not literally the Last Mosque, there have been thousands and tens of thousands of Mosques built after it. But it is the last Mosque to bear such sanctity and a special status. So this Hadith makes a distinction between special Mosques and ordinary Mosques, with the Prophet's Mosque being the Last in a specific category of special mosques, not the last Mosque absolutely. Likewise, our Prophet Muhammad is the Last Prophet in a specific category of Prophets, i.e., real and independent Prophets, not Prophets absolutely, which can include semi-prophets, prophet-like figures, Muhaddathoon, and the concept of the continuity of a Nubuwwah within the Ummah as held to be the Sufiya.
In another narration:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)
I'd be interested to examine the Sanad of this Hadith, even if Albani has authenticated it.
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I don't get what point you are trying to make. Anyways let me assume your argument and post these reports.
حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي أَسْمَاءَ الرَّحَبِيِّ، عَنْ ثَوْبَانَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَلْحَقَ قَبَائِلُ مِنْ أُمَّتِي بِالْمُشْرِكِينَ وَحَتَّى يَعْبُدُوا الأَوْثَانَ وَإِنَّهُ سَيَكُونُ فِي أُمَّتِي ثَلاَثُونَ كَذَّابُونَ كُلُّهُمْ يَزْعُمُ أَنَّهُ نَبِيٌّ وَأَنَا خَاتَمُ النَّبِيِّينَ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي
Thawban narrated that the Messenger of Allah(s.a.w) said: "The Hour shall not be established until tribes of my Ummah unite with the idolaters, and until they worship idols. And indeed there shall be thirty imposters in my Ummah,each of them claiming that he is a Prophet. And I am the last of the Prophets, there is no Prophet after me."[Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2219; Sahih]
My point is not to deny that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last of the Prophets. Of course he is the Last. But incidentally, your belief in the Nuzul al-Masih is an apparent violation of the Finality of Prophethood. If Sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet, then how can Jesus, who is a Prophet, come in the future?
We don't believe that he would claim Prophethood iover Muslim Ummah in his second coming.
تكون النبوة فيكم ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج النبوة ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون ملكا عاضا ، فتكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون ملكا جبرية فيكون ما شاء الله أن يكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج نبوة . ثم سكت . . .
الراوي: النعمان بن بشير المحدث: الألباني – المصدر: تخريج مشكاة المصابيح – الصفحة أو الرقم: 5306
خلاصة حكم المحدث: إسناده حسن
Al-Nauman ibn Basheer told us: The Prophet PBUH said: ‘Prophethood will remain in you for as long as God decides for it to remain and then God will remove it when He decides to remove it. After Prophet hood, there will be a Caliphate on the style of prophethood and it will exist for as long as God decides for it to exist, then He will remove it when He decides to remove it. Then there will be a kingdom in which people will face trials and tribulations and it will continue to exist for as long as God decides for it to exist. Then He will remove it, when He decides to remove it. After this, there will be an oppressive kingdom and it will continue to exist for as long as God decides for it to exist. Then He will remove it, when He decides to remove it. Then there will once again be a Caliphate on the style of prophet hood. After saying this, the Prophet (pbuh) was silent.’
source: Takhreej Mishat al Masabih #5306.
Sahi muslim 4.661: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number.” The people asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?” He said, “Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship.”
From these two ahadeeth we find that there is no hint of Prophethood after Muhammad(Saws). Thus Ahlus-Sunnah doesn't believe that Isa(as) would claim Prophethood over Muslim Ummah in his second coming.
قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " فَإِنِّي آخِرُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَإِنَّهُ آخِرُ الْمَسَاجِدِ
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I am the last of the prophets and it is the last of the Masjids. [Sunan an-Nasa'i 694: Sahih]
In fact this Hadith is authentic and reported in Sahih Muslim, though you have quoted it from Nasa'i sharif. And this Hadith is very beneficial in clarifying the reality of Khatam-an-Nubuwwah, because we know that the Prophet's Mosque in Medina is not literally the Last Mosque, there have been thousands and tens of thousands of Mosques built after it. But it is the last Mosque to bear such sanctity and a special status. So this Hadith makes a distinction between special Mosques and ordinary Mosques, with the Prophet's Mosque being the Last in a specific category of special mosques, not the last Mosque absolutely. Likewise, our Prophet Muhammad is the Last Prophet in a specific category of Prophets, i.e., real and independent Prophets, not Prophets absolutely, which can include semi-prophets, prophet-like figures, Muhaddathoon, and the concept of the continuity of a Nubuwwah within the Ummah as held to be the Sufiya.
This nonsensical trash was destroyed by the hadeeth I gave, which explains the wording of hadeeth.
The above hadeeth is explained by this hadeeth:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)
In another narration:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)
I'd be interested to examine the Sanad of this Hadith, even if Albani has authenticated it.
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Even if the hadeeth below was weak it would have been still better than the theories of some nobody.
Ibn Hazm said:... a weak hadith is dearer to me than mere opinion." [Fiqh us Sunnah]
Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal said , " Weak Hadith is dearer to me than Opinion" [Ibn Hazm , Al Muhalla , 3/61 ]
Ibn Mandah reported from Imam Abu Dawud, that Abu Dawud used to cite the chain of transmission of a weak hadith if he did not find other than it under that particular heading [baab], and that he considered it stronger evidence than opinion of people . [ Tadreeb al Rawi , Page : 111]
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We don't believe that he would claim Prophethood iover Muslim Ummah in his second coming.
Thus Ahlus-Sunnah doesn't believe that Isa(as) would claim Prophethood over Muslim Ummah in his second coming.
This requires clarification. What do you mean by "claiming Prophethood over the Muslim Ummah"? Please clarify whether sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام is a Prophet of Allah, and upon his second advent will he retain this status and office of being Allah's Prophet? Or are you saying that he will be demoted in status and become a non-Prophet? During the second advent will it remain an article of faith for the Muslims to believe in sayyidina Eisa as a Prophet of Allah, or will the necessity of such a belief be either terminated or suspended? Or do you say that sayyidina Eisa remains a Prophet but his Nubuwwah is inoperable and that he does not function as a Prophet despite technically being a Prophet? Will the forty-six attributes of Prophethood remain within sayyidina Eisa or will they be taken away from him? For example, will he continue to receive Wahi during his second advent or not?
From these two ahadeeth we find that there is no hint of Prophethood after Muhammad(Saws).
In Sha Allah, I will cite to you other absolutely authentic Ahadith which does indeed "hint" at something of a remnant or partial Nubuwwah remaining in the Ummah. But before we get to that point I'd appreciate if you clarify your aqida regarding the status of the Nubuwwah of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام during his second advent.
This nonsensical trash was destroyed by the hadeeth I gave, which explains the wording of hadeeth.
The above hadeeth is explained by this hadeeth:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)
I do not reject this narration insofar as it is explaining the meaning of "my Mosque is the Last of the Mosques". My point is that the authentic narration from Sahih Muslim has only this wording "my Mosque is the Last of the Mosques" and without any explanation, its apparent meaning is that the Prophet's Mosque is literally the last and final Mosque absolutely, and there can be no Mosque constructed after it. That is the apparent meaning of the Hadith. If other Ahadith, whether authentic or weak, clarify the meaning of this Hadith, that doesn't negate the authentically established wording of it. I am not arguing over your explanation of the meaning of the Hadith, in fact I accept it. So my point is that the narrations you are bringing such as "I am the Last Prophet" "No Prophet after me" etc., likewise these narrations have an apparent meaning, but are also qualified and have important exceptions in light of other Ahadith.
Even if the hadeeth below was weak it would have been still better than the theories of some nobody.
Ibn Hazm said:... a weak hadith is dearer to me than mere opinion." [Fiqh us Sunnah]
Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal said , " Weak Hadith is dearer to me than Opinion" [Ibn Hazm , Al Muhalla , 3/61 ]
Ibn Mandah reported from Imam Abu Dawud, that Abu Dawud used to cite the chain of transmission of a weak hadith if he did not find other than it under that particular heading [baab], and that he considered it stronger evidence than opinion of people . [ Tadreeb al Rawi , Page : 111]
Firstly, when these Muhaditheen say weak Hadith, they are actually meaning Hadith that reach the level of Hasan, and not referring to the undisputedly weak, very weak and certainly not fabricated Ahadith. And they are also speaking in the context of the Furu'i Masa'il, not in the context of Usul or Aqaid.
Secondly, as I shall demonstrate In Sha Allah, this is not an opinion out of thin air. It has a strong basis in Qur'an & Sunna. But we will cross that bridge when we come to it. For now I would like for you to clarify the status of the Nubuwwah of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام during his second advent.
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@zulfiqar
Your intentions are obvious & becoming clearer with each post.
For example this thread is really you opening up the doubt in finality of prophethood to support the belief of the qadiani's. You deviously covered it under a wannabe shia-sunni polemic garb.
Infact more or less all your threads are cleverly disguised in making them look like aimed at shia but really the ulterior motive is to promote your qadiani belief amongst th sunni's on here.
Qadiani's promote a group of articulate educated missionaries amongst them & I have no doubt you are along them lines.
Doesn't matter if some on here are fooled by you or are merely just being extremely tolerant.
Be academically honest for once I just title your threads with your intentions.
So far you are being very dishonest in your approach.
No matter how hard you try to convert people to your qadian beliefs, no sane muslim would accept the liar who died on a toilet after he issued a death challenge!!!
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@zulfiqar
Your intentions are obvious & becoming clearer with each post.
For example this thread is really you opening up the doubt in finality of prophethood to support the belief of the qadiani's. You deviously covered it under a wannabe shia-sunni polemic garb.
Infact more or less all your threads are cleverly disguised in making them look like aimed at shia but really the ulterior motive is to promote your qadiani belief amongst th sunni's on here.
Qadiani's promote a group of articulate educated missionaries amongst them & I have no doubt you are along them lines.
Doesn't matter if some on here are fooled by you or are merely just being extremely tolerant.
Be academically honest for once I just title your threads with your intentions.
So far you are being very dishonest in your approach.
No matter how hard you try to convert people to your qadian beliefs, no sane muslim would accept the liar who died on a toilet after he issued a death challenge!!!
Sir I've made my intentions clear. I'm not here to cheer on the Sunni side, but to challenge Sunnis to re-evaluate some of their beliefs which are giving ammunition for the Shi'a. You think this is promoting Ahmadiyya but it really isn't. Yes I openly admit that I am influenced by some of the thoughts and ideas of Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani whom I hold in high esteem, but I do not blindly follow him or any other imam. I only aspire to follow completely and absolutely my Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم who I regard as the Seal of the Prophets. I challenge you to discuss ideas not personalities. It doesn't make sense to say this idea is wrong because it seems like it is promoting or favoring this sect or this person that I don't like. That is being neither objective nor sincere. Instead, search for and accept the truth from whatever source you come across, as long as it is true and in accordance with the essential teachings of the divine Revelation.
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You say you believe the Prophet Muhammad SAW is the last prophet.
Then a few lines later you say only a specific prophethood ended with him & absolute prophethood didn't end.
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@Zulfiqar
Here is one of the Sunni responses to Shia interpretation of Hadith al-Manzilah:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/07/30/response-to-the-hadith-of-manzila/
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@zulfiqar
Your intentions are obvious & becoming clearer with each post.
I knew he was a qadiyani in disguise & a liar from his website. Just visit and read whats in it. Read what he wrote about that died in his poopoo false prophet.
For example this thread is really you opening up the doubt in finality of prophethood to support the belief of the qadiani's. You deviously covered it under a wannabe shia-sunni polemic garb.
Infact more or less all your threads are cleverly disguised in making them look like aimed at shia but really the ulterior motive is to promote your qadiani belief amongst th sunni's on here.
One of the reason why i despise & hate shia is their lying double face taqiyya when they try to promote their belief to people who don't know much about shitism. You can tell this false prophet's fan is using similar technique.
Doesn't matter if some on here are fooled by you or are merely just being extremely tolerant.
hopefully most of the seasoned members here are just being tolerant otherwise im really dissapointed if they can be easily fooled since we have dealt with shia using similar dishonest approach many times here
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Sir I've made my intentions clear. I'm not here to cheer on the Sunni side, but to challenge Sunnis to re-evaluate some of their beliefs which are giving ammunition for the Shi'a.
Its your false prophet belief which gives ammunition for shia, not our beliefs. We've been smashing shitism here for fun & your died in his poop false prophet's belief doesnt mean poop (pun intended). Shia will laugh at your qadiyani belief.
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You say you believe the Prophet Muhammad SAW is the last prophet.
Then a few lines later you say only a specific prophethood ended with him & absolute prophethood didn't end.
What I say is the same thing as the gnostic Sufis regarding Nubuwwah; there is no Prophet after Sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم that can bring a new Shari'a, start a new Millat, or is a real and independent Prophet, in other words, a Prophet in his own essence. But there can and have come righteous saints within the Umma who due to their extreme piety, emulation and love of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم began to reflect some of his light. Hence, they became colored with the Prophet's color, and act as a projection of his blessed person. This is a concept known as Fana fil-Rasul, when a person resembles the Prophet and follows him to such a degree that his own essence and personality fades into the background, and all we see from him is a manifestation of the Prophet's character and attributes. So the Nubuwwah of sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the final and greatest specimen of Nubuwwah, but there are saints from his Umma, who by following him intensely, can become colored with the color of that Nubuwwah.
I often give the parable of the sun and moon for people who have difficulty understanding this point. The sun in its essence is a Siraj (lamp), an independent source of blazing light. But at night time, when the Sun has set, we can still benefit from the sun's light through the agency of the full moon. The Moon in its essence is not a lamp or source of light. It is a sphere of barren rock. But it reflects the light of the sun. Likewise, in the Umma, there are Awliya who reflect the light (Nubuwwah) of the Prophet. It is not their own Nubuwwah, the Nubuwwah of Muhammad is the final Nubuwwah, but that Nubuwwah can be reflected from multitude of saints, who are a repository of that light. Those saints are not Prophets in their own essence.
Furthermore, these saintly individuals from the Umma who, due to receiving frequent Ilham and true visions and being conversant with Allah, possess a partial degree of Nubuwwah that from a linguistic sense they can be called Nabi. They are called Nabi in the Sufi Istilah (terminology), but technically they are Muhaddath in the Shari' Istilah.
So indeed Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is absolutely the Last and Final Prophet, both chronologically and he is also the Khaatam (Seal) of the Prophets in the sense of being the ultimate and culmination in degree and rank, meaning the supreme Prophet.
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@Zulfiqar
Here is one of the Sunni responses to Shia interpretation of Hadith al-Manzilah:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/07/30/response-to-the-hadith-of-manzila/
I did read this article, but its major shortcoming is that it did not address the Shi'a argument that when the Prophet told Ali "except that there is no Prophet after me" that was an indication that Ali would succeed the Prophet after his death despite not being a Prophet. So they base the bulk of their argument on "after me". This is why what I wrote in the OP addresses the dilemma of "after me", this issue was not addressed at all not only in the article of twelvershia.net but by virtually every Sunni response and explanation of the Hadith al-Manzila.
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You say you believe the Prophet Muhammad SAW is the last prophet.
Then a few lines later you say only a specific prophethood ended with him & absolute prophethood didn't end.
What I say is the same thing as the gnostic Sufis regarding Nubuwwah; there is no Prophet after Sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم that can bring a new Shari'a, start a new Millat, or is a real and independent Prophet, in other words, a Prophet in his own essence. But there can and have come righteous saints within the Umma who due to their extreme piety, emulation and love of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم began to reflect some of his light. Hence, they became colored with the Prophet's color, and act as a projection of his blessed person. This is a concept known as Fana fil-Rasul, when a person resembles the Prophet and follows him to such a degree that his own essence and personality fades into the background, and all we see from him is a manifestation of the Prophet's character and attributes. So the Nubuwwah of sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the final and greatest specimen of Nubuwwah, but there are saints from his Umma, who by following him intensely, can become colored with the color of that Nubuwwah.
I often give the parable of the sun and moon for people who have difficulty understanding this point. The sun in its essence is a Siraj (lamp), an independent source of blazing light. But at night time, when the Sun has set, we can still benefit from the sun's light through the agency of the full moon. The Moon in its essence is not a lamp or source of light. It is a sphere of barren rock. But it reflects the light of the sun. Likewise, in the Umma, there are Awliya who reflect the light (Nubuwwah) of the Prophet. It is not their own Nubuwwah, the Nubuwwah of Muhammad is the final Nubuwwah, but that Nubuwwah can be reflected from multitude of saints, who are a repository of that light. Those saints are not Prophets in their own essence.
Furthermore, these saintly individuals from the Umma who, due to receiving frequent Ilham and true visions and being conversant with Allah, possess a partial degree of Nubuwwah that from a linguistic sense they can be called Nabi. They are called Nabi in the Sufi Istilah (terminology), but technically they are Muhaddath in the Shari' Istilah.
So indeed Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is absolutely the Last and Final Prophet, both chronologically and he is also the Khaatam (Seal) of the Prophets in the sense of being the ultimate and culmination in degree and rank, meaning the supreme Prophet.
You sound like the shia such as the member called link when he always waffles philosophical mumbo jumbo to explain or dodge a position.
The jist is that you are lying to either yourself or us or even both. Don't say you have same belief as us then turn round & say thr complete opposite & try to sugar coat the contradiction.
Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??
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You sound like the shia such as the member called link when he always waffles philosophical mumbo jumbo to explain or dodge a position.
The jist is that you are lying to either yourself or us or even both. Don't say you have same belief as us then turn round & say thr complete opposite & try to sugar coat the contradiction.
Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??
So you are rejecting 'Ilm-ul-Mantiq altogether as a beneficial form of knowledge to explain and understand difficult theological concepts? Alright then I will show you how hollow and exposed you are if you don't want to discuss this issue from a "philosophical" perspective.
Now I assume you believe Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet. Do you also believe in the second coming of Jesus, another Prophet? If your answer is in the affirmative, I will ask you the same questions I have asked and am still expecting an answer from Noor-us-Sunnah:
Please clarify whether sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام is a Prophet of Allah, and upon his second advent will he retain this status and office of being Allah's Prophet? Or are you saying that he will be demoted in status and become a non-Prophet? During the second advent will it remain an article of faith for the Muslims to believe in sayyidina Eisa as a Prophet of Allah, or will the necessity of such a belief be either terminated or suspended? Or do you say that sayyidina Eisa remains a Prophet but his Nubuwwah is inoperable and that he does not function as a Prophet despite technically being a Prophet? Will the forty-six attributes of Prophethood remain within sayyidina Eisa or will they be taken away from him? For example, will he continue to receive Wahi during his second advent or not?
I look forward to reading your answers.
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Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??
Before I answer this question and we get into that discussion, I encourage you to read the references I've already cited from the Sufis regarding Nubuwwah on my blog:
http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/sufi.html
http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/khatam-nubuwwah.html
So if you go through these 2 sections of my blog 1. Khatam-an-Nubuwwah and 2. Sufism, you will find literally dozens of references from various Sufis believing their Awliya to be the Prophet Muhammad, or bearing characteristics of Nubuwwah
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You sound like the shia such as the member called link when he always waffles philosophical mumbo jumbo to explain or dodge a position.
The jist is that you are lying to either yourself or us or even both. Don't say you have same belief as us then turn round & say thr complete opposite & try to sugar coat the contradiction.
Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??
So you are rejecting 'Ilm-ul-Mantiq altogether as a beneficial form of knowledge to explain and understand difficult theological concepts? Alright then I will show you how hollow and exposed you are if you don't want to discuss this issue from a "philosophical" perspective.
Now I assume you believe Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet. Do you also believe in the second coming of Jesus, another Prophet? If your answer is in the affirmative, I will ask you the same questions I have asked and am still expecting an answer from Noor-us-Sunnah:
Please clarify whether sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام is a Prophet of Allah, and upon his second advent will he retain this status and office of being Allah's Prophet? Or are you saying that he will be demoted in status and become a non-Prophet? During the second advent will it remain an article of faith for the Muslims to believe in sayyidina Eisa as a Prophet of Allah, or will the necessity of such a belief be either terminated or suspended? Or do you say that sayyidina Eisa remains a Prophet but his Nubuwwah is inoperable and that he does not function as a Prophet despite technically being a Prophet? Will the forty-six attributes of Prophethood remain within sayyidina Eisa or will they be taken away from him? For example, will he continue to receive Wahi during his second advent or not?
I look forward to reading your answers.
Isa AS was a prophet before the prophet muhammad SAW carried his mission.
Mirza ghulam ahmed i'm sure choked in his own feacess over a milenium after the time of the prophet muhammad SAW & not before. So the analogy is not valid.
If you really want to get technical then on the day of judgement when all the prophets are gathered, the prophet muhammad SAW will be their leader & still the seal & technically Isa AS second return still does not cancel the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad SAW😃😃
Mirza ghulam was never a prophet before nor after nor will be.
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Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??
Before I answer this question and we get into that discussion, I encourage you to read the references I've already cited from the Sufis regarding Nubuwwah on my blog:
http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/sufi.html
http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/khatam-nubuwwah.html
So if you go through these 2 sections of my blog 1. Khatam-an-Nubuwwah and 2. Sufism, you will find literally dozens of references from various Sufis believing their Awliya to be the Prophet Muhammad, or bearing characteristics of Nubuwwah
I didn't ask whether any sufis considered their awliya as the prophet muhammad SAW or if they had characteristics of a prophet.
I asked you to cite me major sufis who believed any pious figure as a prophet after the prophet muhammad SAW.
Don't feed me links to your site please as i'm not interested in giving it hits.
Post your evidence here please.
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Isa AS was a prophet before the prophet muhammad SAW carried his mission.
Mirza ghulam ahmed i'm sure choked in his own feacess over a milenium after the time of the prophet muhammad SAW & not before. So the analogy is not valid.
If you really want to get technical then on the day of judgement when all the prophets are gathered, the prophet muhammad SAW will be their leader & still the seal & technically Isa AS second return still does not cancel the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad SAW😃😃
Mirza ghulam was never a prophet before nor after nor will be.
Did I ever say Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a Prophet? We are discussing the cessation of Nubuwwah not the personality of Ghulam Ahmad. Keep that in mind and try not to steer away. It's ironic that you accuse me of subverting these topics in order to propagate Ahmadiyya, when the fact is that it is you who keeps on bringing up Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, not me.
Next you did not answer a single one of my questions regarding sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام. You completely dodged those questions because you know that if you try to answer them you will not only ensnare yourself in a trap but expose how hollow and self-contradictory your belief in Khatm-un-Nubuwwah really is. So once again I am listing those questions and hoping for the last time you will at least make an attempt to answer them:
1. Is Jesus a Prophet of Allah?
2. During the second advent, will Jesus retain his status and office of being a Prophet?
3. Will Jesus be demoted in status and become a non-Prophet during his second advent?
4. Will it remain an article of faith to believe in Jesus as a Prophet of Allah during the second advent?
5. If Jesus remains a Prophet, will his Nubuwwah be operable and functioning during the second advent?
6. Will the forty some parts of Nubuwwah continue to be manifested by Jesus during his second advent?
7. Will Jesus continue to receive Wahi from Allah during his second advent?
Not only you, but I challenge anyone to answer these 7 questions specifically without dodging or derailing.
All you said was that Jesus was a Prophet before sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, so his second advent does not clash with the doctrine of Khatm-un-Nubuwwah
Now I will expose how weak and hollow this argument is:
1. Do you believe that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was a Prophet in the Sight of Allah while Adam was still being created, as it comes in the Hadith:
إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ لَخَاتَمُ النَّبِيِّينَ ، وَإِنَّ آدَمَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام لَمُنْجَدِلٌ فِي طِينَتِهِ
I am the servant of Allah, the Seal of the Prophets, and Adam peace be upon him was still kneaded in his clay
(Musnad Ahmad)
2. If Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was a Prophet from that primordial time when Adam was still being shaped from clay, then it means that not only Jesus, but all other Prophets became Prophets after sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم
3. If Jesus of Nazareth became a Prophet after sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم then your argument that he was a Prophet from before sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is broken
4. What is the meaning of Last? Does it mean the last to become something, or the last one to remain?
5. If Last means the last one to become something, then who was the Last Sahabi of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم?
6. The last of the Sahaba to die was Abu Tufail رضى الله عنه who died in 100 H, but he was not the last person to become a Sahabi. The last person to become a Sahabi died prior to Abu Tufail, who was the last Sahabi that died.
7. Imam adh-Dhahabi therefore refers to Abu Tufail as the خاتم الصحابة "Seal of the Sahaba" (al-Kashif; v.1 p.527). This proves that being the Last of the Sahaba means the Last Sahabi to die from among the Sahaba, not the last person to become a Sahabi.
8. Does the Finality of Muhammad's Prophethood possess a purpose and wisdom, or is it merely semantic? If it possesses a purpose and wisdom, then to say that Jesus who is a Prophet will return after the death of sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, but this does not contravene the finality of Prophethood because he was a Prophet from before, is merely a semantic point.
9. If I am a King and possess a kingdom, but my desire is that I should be the last King and after me kingdom should end and there should be democracy. So I say "I am the last king, khalas, after me no more kingdom". Then after I die, a man comes from another land where he used to be king, and says "I was a king before your king died, so if you make a king of your country you will technically not violate the command "I am the last king no king after me", because I was a king before your king. Then this other man becomes a king and so kingdom continues and there is no democracy.
Will the king who died and left in his will "no king after me" be happy with this turn of events based on a loophole and semantic point, ignoring his overall purpose in saying "no king after me"?
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I didn't ask whether any sufis considered their awliya as the prophet muhammad SAW or if they had characteristics of a prophet.
I asked you to cite me major sufis who believed any pious figure as a prophet after the prophet muhammad SAW.
Don't feed me links to your site please as i'm not interested in giving it hits.
Post your evidence here please.
It's a strawman argument, because neither do I claim that nor believe any pious figure to be a Prophet after the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم. Yes, the issue of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام who is fully a Prophet, and you believe will come back into this Earth, remains to be resolved. I have put forward to you 7 precise questions which require precise answers. I have also demolished your idea that since Jesus was a Prophet from before Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, hence his return to this Earth as a Prophet does not clash with the doctrine of Khatm-an-Nubuwwah. Read my response to that absolutely demolishing your argument and answer it first.
And when you say: "I didn't ask whether any sufis considered their awliya as the prophet muhammad SAW or if they had characteristics of a prophet." are you not tacitly confessing that you know that the Sufis have considered some of their awliya to be the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, and bearing the characteristics of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم? This is the issue where my qualifying the meaning of Khatam-an-Nubuwwah revolves around.
Therefore I propose we clarify this issue first. It may be that in reality we have no difference at least in theory when it comes to our understanding of Khatam-an-Nubuwwah
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I don't have an issue in Isa's second coming because:
Muhammad saw was the last prophet sent to mankind, humanity will live with the teachings of this last prophet. Isa was sent before Muhammad, he delivered his prophesies and taught his laws beforehand so he won't be doing that again and there is no need. Isa isn't the last one sent to mankind since someone was sent after him. Isa is resuming what remains of his life when he was taken in special circumstance.
Isa's return will only be at the end of times, when the world has pretty much ended, cows sleep with the lions, the beast marks the faces, the anti Christ has appeared and the Mahdi has perished. Isa is not there to assume the standard role of a prophet but he seems to be taking the role of a political leader to settle a score and as a sign of Muhammad's truthfulness. At the time Islam's authentic teachings will be alive and well even before his Advent. Also we have no evidence that Isa will be receiving revelation through angels at the time or instructing on new laws since as we said, the world has already come to an end. As you know prophets prophesy but Isa won't, at the time there won't be a need to prophesy.
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I don't have an issue in Isa's second coming because:
Muhammad saw was the last prophet sent to mankind, humanity will live with the teachings of this last prophet. Isa was sent before Muhammad, he delivered his prophesies and taught his laws beforehand so he won't be doing that again and there is no need. Isa isn't the last one sent to mankind since someone was sent after him. Isa is resuming what remains of his life when he was taken in special circumstance.
Isa's return will only be at the end of times, when the world has pretty much ended, cows sleep with the lions, the beast marks the faces, the anti Christ has appeared and the Mahdi has perished. Isa is not there to assume the standard role of a prophet but he seems to be taking the role of a political leader to settle a score and as a sign of Muhammad's truthfulness. At the time Islam's authentic teachings will be alive and well even before his Advent.
In principle I too believe in the second coming of the Messiah, but it is the modality where there can be a difference of interpretation. The only people who reject this doctrine are the Hadith-rejecters, naturalists, and certain modernist thinkers.
The issue here is reconciling the second coming of a Prophet with the doctrine of Finality of Prophethood. If you want to ask the classical Ulama how they reconciled these two doctrines that are apparently clashing with each other, you may find their explanation hard to swallow. Basically, the way these reconcile these two doctrines is by saying that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet to bring a Shari'a, but Jesus who is a Prophet can come because he will not abrogate the Shari'at al Muhammadiya, but rather he will be a Prophet who is following the Way of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم.
This was their theory. For example, let me quote Imam Ibn Qutaybah رحمه الله:
http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2014/11/imam-ibn-qutaybah-hadith-no-prophet.html
وأما قول عائشة رضى الله عنها : قولوا لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خاتم الأنبياء ولا تقولوا لا نبي بعده : فأنها تذهب إلى نزول عيسى عليه السلام وليس هذا من قولها ناقضاً لقول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: لا نبي بعدي: لأنه أراد لا نبي بعدي ينسخ ما جئت به كما كانت الأنبياء صلى الله عليهم وسلم تبعث بالنسخ وأرادت هي: لا تقولوا إن المسيح لا ينزل بعده
As for the saying of AishaRA: "Do say the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Seal of the Prophets, but don't say there is no prophet after him." Then she was referring to the descent of Jesus peace be upon him. And this saying (of Aisha) does not contradict the saying of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم "There is no Prophet after me", because the meaning of "no prophet after me" is that no one will abrogate what I have come with like how the Prophets peace be upon them were sent with abrogation. And her intention was "Don't say that the Messiah won't descend after him"
Ta'wil Mukhtalif al-Hadith; p.360
So the saying of Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) and its explanation by Imam Ibn Qutayba proves that they considered Jesus to be a Prophet who will come after the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم. Yet they did not consider this as violating the doctrine of Khatam an Nubuwwah, because they understood that doctrine to mean that no Prophet can come after sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم who will abrogate his Shari'a and be independent of him.
So this nuanced explanation of Khatam an Nubuwwah is necessary in order to accommodate the doctrine of the second coming of the Messiah.
Now the Sufis understood this as opening the door not only for the second coming of Jesus, but any saintly person from the Umma can potentially become a Prophet as long as he too is not abrogating the Shari'a. Now I hope you see the whole picture. The classical Ulama by qualifying the meaning of Khatm un Nubuwwah in order to make way for Jesus's second coming ended up opening the door for other Prophets to come along the same lines.
Also we have no evidence that Isa will be receiving revelation through angels at the time or instructing on new laws since as we said, the world has already come to an end. As you know prophets prophesy but Isa won't, at the time there won't be a need to prophesy.
You have made a critical mistake here because if you examine the Hadith which speaks of the second coming of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام they affirm that the will get revelation and the knowledge of the unseen will continue to be disclosed to him:
ثُمَّ يَأْتِي عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ قَوْمٌ قَدْ عَصَمَهُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْهُ فَيَمْسَحُ عَنْ وُجُوهِهِمْ وَيُحَدِّثُهُمْ بِدَرَجَاتِهِمْ فِي الْجَنَّةِ فَبَيْنَمَا هُوَ كَذَلِكَ إِذْ أَوْحَى اللَّهُ إِلَى عِيسَى إِنِّي قَدْ أَخْرَجْتُ عِبَادًا لِي لاَ يَدَانِ لأَحَدٍ بِقِتَالِهِمْ فَحَرِّزْ عِبَادِي إِلَى الطُّورِ
Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur (Sahih Muslim: Kitab al-Fitan)
So if Jesus will not prophecy or receive divine Revelation, how will he wipe people's faces and inform them of their rank in Paradise, something that is from the Ghaib. And likewise, how will Allah reveal to him words containing news of the future regarding the imminent coming out of Gog and Magog, and instructing him and his followers to seek refuge on a mountain?
In fact, in the same Hadith, Jesus has been referred to as Nabiullah no less than four times during his second advent. So not only will he remain a Prophet during the second advent, he will continue to function as a Prophet, being disclosed with knowledge of the unseen, getting verbal revelations from Allah, and performing great miracles. The only difference is that he will not come to abrogate the Shari'a, and in fact will be commanded to follow the Qur'an and Sunna like the rest of the Umma.
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Ibn Qutaybah is like me and you, he reads the texts and tries to find the true meaning and intention. Scholars clashed in some interpretations because the two matters discussed are popular yet seemingly clash according to a beginner who takes the first look. Those who are well read can easily figure out the intended meanings and reconcile any apparent conflicts.
As for people of evidence, we go where it points, so that narration you presented clearly shows he communicates with God, thus I have to drop that point about prophesy.
Based on this, I'd say the best explanation to the Prophet's (saw) narration would be:
"There is no prophet after me" meaning during the remaining period for humanity, UNTIL the end of times where `Isa (as) descends.
This is in agreement with the other narration where he (saw) says "There is no prophet or messenger between me and `Isa, he shall be my successor upon my nation after me."
أَلا إِنَّ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ لَيْسَ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَهُ نَبِيٌّ وَلا رَسُولٌ ، أَلا إِنَّهُ خَلِيفَتِي فِي أُمَّتِي بَعْدِي ، أَلا إِنَّهُ يَقْتُلُ الدَّجَّالَ ، وَيَكْسِرُ الصَّلِيبَ ، وَتَضَعُ الْحَرْبُ أَوْزَارَهَا ، أَلا فَمَنْ أَدْرَكَهُ مِنْكُمْ فَلْيَقْرَأْ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامَ
This actually makes things much simpler.
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Based on this, I'd say the best explanation to the Prophet's (saw) narration would be:
"There is no prophet after me" meaning during the remaining period for humanity, UNTIL the end of times where `Isa (as) descends.
This is in agreement with the other narration where he (saw) says "There is no prophet or messenger between me and `Isa, he shall be my successor upon my nation after me."
أَلا إِنَّ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ لَيْسَ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَهُ نَبِيٌّ وَلا رَسُولٌ ، أَلا إِنَّهُ خَلِيفَتِي فِي أُمَّتِي بَعْدِي ، أَلا إِنَّهُ يَقْتُلُ الدَّجَّالَ ، وَيَكْسِرُ الصَّلِيبَ ، وَتَضَعُ الْحَرْبُ أَوْزَارَهَا ، أَلا فَمَنْ أَدْرَكَهُ مِنْكُمْ فَلْيَقْرَأْ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامَ
This actually makes things much simpler.
You have to be very careful in explaining Finality of Prophethood and the Hadith "No Prophet after me" and emphasize the fact that there can be no abrogation of the Shari'a and no new Millat. This is included as the essence of Finality of Prophethood. When you gave your explanation you did not include this.
Furthermore, it would be helpful for you to clarify the meaning of the Hadith "there is no Prophet between me and between him", does it mean there will be no prophet between these two, or disclosing the fact that there was no prophet between these two Prophets (a period of little less than 6 centuries), i.e., is it talking about the past or the future?:
عَنْ سَلْمَانَ، قَالَ فَتْرَةٌ بَيْنَ عِيسَى وَمُحَمَّدٍ صلى الله عليه وسلم سِتُّمِائَةِ سَنَةٍ.
Narrated SalmanRA: The interval between Jesus and Muhammad was six hundred years. (Bukhari)
But leaving all this aside, I essentially agree with you, Finality of Prophethood requires a more nuanced explanation in order to address the creed of Nuzul al-Masih, and your explanation is quite sensible.
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The apparent meaning I observe is the future since he follows by saying "No prophet between us, He is my Khalifah after me." But I can't deny the other possibility. Other narrations must be factored to reach a conclusion.
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Other narrations must be factored to reach a conclusion.
Let's look at some of these other narrations and see if you can tweak your position on Khatm-an-Nubuwwah a little more:
عَنْ أَبِي الدَّرْدَاءِ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " مَا طَلَعَتِ الشَّمْسُ عَلَى أَحَدٍ أَفْضَلَ مِنْ أَبِي بَكْرٍ ، إِلا أَنْ يَكُونَ نَبِيُّ
Abu Dardaa narrates that Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "The sun has not risen over anyone better than Abu Bakr except if a Prophet comes." (Fada'il as-Sahaba of Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal)
قَالَ رَجُلٌ عِنْدَ الْمُغِيرَةِ بْنِ شُعْبَةَ : صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ خَاتَمُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ , لا نَبِيَّ بَعْدَهُ , قَالَ الْمُغِيرَةُ : " حَسْبُكَ إِذَا قُلْتُ : خَاتَمُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ , فَإِنَّا كُنَّا نُحَدِّثُ أَنَّ عِيسَى خَارِجٌ , فَإِنْ هُوَ خَرَجَ فَقَدْ كَانَ قَبْلَهُ وَبَعْدَهُ
A man said in the presence of al-Mughira b. Shu'ba: "Blessings of Allah upon Muhammad, Seal of the Prophet, there is no Prophet after him." al-Mughira said: "It is sufficient to say 'Seal of the Prophets', for we were told that Jesus will come, so when he comes he (Jesus) is before him (Muhammad) and after him (Muhammad)."
(Musannaf ibn Abi Shayba)
سَمِعْتُ أَبَا الطُّفَيْلِ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " لَا نُبُوَّةَ بَعْدِي إِلَّا الْمُبَشِّرَاتِ " قَالَ : قِيلَ : وَمَا الْمُبَشِّرَاتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ؟ قَالَ : " الرُّؤْيَا الْحَسَنَةُ " ، أَوْ قَالَ : " الرُّؤْيَا الصَّالِحَةُ "
Aba Tufail said: Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "There is no Nubuwwah after me except the Mubashshiraat." It was said: "And what is the Mubashiraat, O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "The good Vision" or he said: "The pious Vision"
(Musnad Ahmad)
عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ , صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ , قَالَ لِلْعَبَّاسِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ : " فِيكُمُ النُّبُوَّةُ وَفِيكُمُ الْمَمْلَكَةُ
Abi Huraira narrates that Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said to al-Abbas b. Abdil Muttalib: "Within you there is Nubuwwah and within you there is Mamlakah (Kingship)"
(Amali Ibn Bushran)
عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّهُ كَانَ يَقُولُ " قَدْ كَانَ يَكُونُ فِي الأُمَمِ قَبْلَكُمْ مُحَدَّثُونَ فَإِنْ يَكُنْ فِي أُمَّتِي مِنْهُمْ أَحَدٌ فَإِنَّ عُمَرَ بْنَ الْخَطَّابِ مِنْهُمْ " . قَالَ ابْنُ وَهْبٍ تَفْسِيرُ مُحَدَّثُونَ مُلْهَمُونَ
The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم used to say: "There were in the nations before you Muhaddithun, so if there is anyone in my Ummah from among them then Umar b. al-Khattab is from among them." Ibn Wahb explained Muhaddithun as meaning Mulhamun (people who receive Ilham or divine inspiration)
(Sahih Muslim)
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Salam,
So here are points on the narrations you quoted, I will comment from the viewpoint that Muhammad (saw) is the LAST prophet for mankind until the descent of `Isa (as) at the end of times as is stated in the abovementioned reports.
["The sun has not risen over anyone better than Abu Bakr except if a Prophet comes."]
This correct translation is: "except a prophet" the word "comes" was added by the (Qadiyani) translator to hint towards a continuation of prophet-hood. So there is no evidence here for it.
[al-Mughira said: "It is sufficient to say 'Seal of the Prophets', for we were told that Jesus will come, so when he comes he (Jesus) is before him (Muhammad) and after him (Muhammad)."]
No doubt this might have caused some early Muslims confusion, I've explained above how there is no issue with saying Muhammad (saw) is the last prophet and that `Isa (as) only comes at the end of the world. I wouldn't factor anything happening in those days as being a norm. Additionally, the Prophet (saw) said "No messengers or prophets between us, `Isa will be my Khalifah on my nation."
Furthermore the narration is weak due to Mujalid.
["There is no Nubuwwah after me except the Mubashshiraat." It was said: "And what is the Mubashiraat, O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "The good Vision" or he said: "The pious Vision"]
No issue here as well, regular believers have visions from God and dreams. Prophets often recieved them in addition to certainty and infallibility and some other qualities and traits. This matter is a small blessing that remained from the traces of prophet-hood. The narration implies that prophet-hood as it was known has ended with Muhammad (saw).
[said to al-Abbas b. Abdil Muttalib: "Within you there is Nubuwwah and within you there is Mamlakah (Kingship)"]
That is true, banu Hashim were blessed by having the Prophet (saw) from among them and by recieving the kingdom and leadership during `Ali's reign and that of the `Abbasies as well as those who rule in our days.
[say: "There were in the nations before you Muhaddithun, so if there is anyone in my Ummah from among them then Umar b. al-Khattab is from among them." Ibn Wahb explained Muhaddithun as meaning Mulhamun]
True, there are people who have been blessed with success from God, he helps them utter words to benefit those around them and inspires them sometimes to take actions that bring humanity goodness. I've met such people on several occasions, pious friends of Allah.
In conclusion, I observe that the evidence of those believing in the sessation of prophet-hood after Muhammad (saw) till `Isa's (as) descent at the end of times is much stronger than the belief that regular prophet-hood is continous throughout the ages. This cancels out the prophet-hood of all those who claimed it for the past 1,400 years.
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Salam,
So here are points on the narrations you quoted, I will comment from the viewpoint that Muhammad (saw) is the LAST prophet for mankind until the descent of `Isa (as) at the end of times as is stated in the abovementioned reports.
["The sun has not risen over anyone better than Abu Bakr except if a Prophet comes."]
This correct translation is: "except a prophet" the word "comes" was added by the (Qadiyani) translator to hint towards a continuation of prophet-hood. So there is no evidence here for it.
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته
So you say that the phrase
إِلا أَنْ يَكُونَ نَبِيُّ
means "except a Prophet", hence the translation of this Hadith according to you:
"The sun has not risen over anyone better than Abu Bakr except a Prophet"
But your translation doesn't fit with the Arabic grammar since the Hadith has the word يكون which is an imperfect verb or فعل مضارع. It means something like "becomes" or "will become". Many examples of it in the Quran al-Karim, especially the most famous one Kun FaYakoon "Be! So it becomes"
["There is no Nubuwwah after me except the Mubashshiraat." It was said: "And what is the Mubashiraat, O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "The good Vision" or he said: "The pious Vision"]
No issue here as well, regular believers have visions from God and dreams. Prophets often recieved them in addition to certainty and infallibility and some other qualities and traits. This matter is a small blessing that remained from the traces of prophet-hood. The narration implies that prophet-hood as it was known has ended with Muhammad (saw).
I agree exactly with your interpretation. The Mubashshiraat or good visions that come true are a remnant of Nubuwwah. There can come no one now who is a Prophet with the "Prophethood as it was known that ended with Muhammad(SWS)". But there is a partial Nubuwwah or a part of Nubuwwah which remains, and whoever is blessed with that part of Nubuwwah is manifesting a partial aspect of Nubuwwah. In the terminology of Sufis, such a person who is blessed with such good Visions with frequency is a Prophet in a metaphorical sense.
Mulla Ali Qari has talked about this concept of "metaphorical" Nubuwwah:
وكذلك كل امام اى من الائمة الاثنى عشر عند هؤلاء الرافضة يقوم مقامه في النبوة والحجة يعنى ان ارادوا بها الحقيقة والا فالمنزلة المجازية لا توجب الكفر ولا البدعة
This is in the context of refuting the Rafida. Ali al-Qari says that they believe each of their 12 Imams is a Prophet in reality, not in a metaphorical sense, while the latter belief (about a metaphorical Nubuwwah) would be neither Kufr nor Bid'a.
http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2014/10/mulla-ali-qari-and-metaphorical.html
[said to al-Abbas b. Abdil Muttalib: "Within you there is Nubuwwah and within you there is Mamlakah (Kingship)"]
That is true, banu Hashim were blessed by having the Prophet (saw) from among them and by recieving the kingdom and leadership during `Ali's reign and that of the `Abbasies as well as those who rule in our days.
This interpretation is not consistent, because it is referring to al-Abbas not Hashim or by extension all the children of Hashim. Abbas and his progeny represent a specific branch of Hashemites. So it could be said that within Abbas himself there is some trace or remnant of Nubuwwah. This explains why during the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم the people came to him when they needed him to pray for rain for them, but after his death the people went to al-Abbas رضى الله عنه so there was some aspect or spark of Nubuwwah within the essence of Abbas.
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[But your translation doesn't fit with the Arabic grammar since the Hadith has the word يكون which is an imperfect verb or فعل مضارع. It means something like "becomes" or "will become". ]
In this case, it would mean "Unless you speak of a prophet". Otherwise, it is as I told you and this is how we understand it and translate it.
أي إلا أن يكون ذلك الشخص نبيا
[This interpretation is not consistent, because it is referring to al-Abbas not Hashim or by extension all the children of Hashim.]
It's consistent since al-`Abbas was the elder of Hashim at the time. The theory you gave about seeking him for rain seems a bit far fetched. It would have made more sense to say "Feeka" instead of "Feekum". A similar Hadith is narrated from Ibn `Abbas where he also boasts: "From us is the Mansur, from us is the Saffah and from us is the Mahdi." All of whom are Hashemites but some from `Abbas' progeny while the Mahdi is from `Ali.
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It's consistent since al-`Abbas was the elder of Hashim at the time. The theory you gave about seeking him for rain seems a bit far fetched. It would have made more sense to say "Feeka" instead of "Feekum". A similar Hadith is narrated from Ibn `Abbas where he also boasts: "From us is the Mansur, from us is the Saffah and from us is the Mahdi." All of whom are Hashemites but some from `Abbas' progeny while the Mahdi is from `Ali.
I understand the point of Feekum yet I think it is far-fetched to say that by addressing Abbas the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was referring to all the progeny of Hashim and meant to say that the Nubuwwah is referring to himself. There are other Ahadith where for example the Prophet said: "Verily Allah granted eminence to Kinana from amongst the descendants of Isma'il, and he granted eminence to the Quraish amongst Kinana, and he granted eminence to Banu Hashim amongst the Quraish, and he granted me eminence from the tribe of Banu Hashim."
But in addressing Abbas and saying "within you" meaning within your loins "there is Nubuwwah and Mamlaka" I grant you that he is referring to the progeny of Abbas, and prophesying about the Abbasid kingship. So likewise, from among the progeny of Abbas there will be such men who will be blessed with Nubuwwah - but of course the type of Nubuwwah which is Ghair Tashreei and in light of the Hadith of the al-Mubashshiraat a partial Nubuwwah or remnant of Nubuwwah.
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A similar Hadith is narrated from Ibn `Abbas where he also boasts: "From us is the Mansur, from us is the Saffah and from us is the Mahdi." All of whom are Hashemites but some from `Abbas' progeny while the Mahdi is from `Ali.
I'm not sure about the authenticity of such a Hadith, considering the fact that Mansur was an oppressor. But if Mahdi is mentioned in the same line as Saffah and Mansur then it is obviously referring to al-Mahdi Billah (al-Mansur's son and the 3rd Abbasid king and another oppressor), not the Mahdi al-Muntadhir who will come from the progeny of Fatimat az Zahra رضى الله عنها
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The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:
إِذَا هَلَكَ كِسْرَى فَلَا كِسْرَى بَعْدَهُ ، وَإِذَا هَلَكَ قَيْصَرُ فَلَا قَيْصَرَ بَعْدَهُ ، وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَتُنْفَقَنَّ كُنُوزُهُمَا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ
When Khosrau is ruined, there will be no Khosrau after him; and when Caesar is ruined, there will be no Caesar after him. By Him in Whose Hands my life is, you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause (Bukhari Sharif)
However when the Kisra (Khusrow) of the Prophet's time died he was indeed succeed by a succession of Iranian emperors until Yazdegard III whose reign came to an end in 651 CE.
Likewise, when the Caesar in the Prophet's time died, he too was succeeded by a long line of Byzantine emperors until Constantine XI when Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453 CE.
Hence, the Hadith is interpreted to mean that there will never be a Kisra as great and mighty as the Kisra who will be ruined by the Muslim conquest of Iran, and likewise there will never be a Caesar as great and mighty as the Caesar who will be ruined by the Muslim conquest of the Levant.
Hence despite the wording of "Fala Qaisara Ba'dahu" (There is no Caesar after him) similar to "La Nabiyy Ba'dee" (There is no Prophet after me) we come to see the termination of a specific level of glory of the genus and not the termination of the genus absolutely.
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Sorry bro, not convincing.
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Sorry bro, not convincing.
No problem if you aren't convinced. But at least you should clarify about this Hadith regarding Khusrow and Caesar.