Hadith al-Manzilah and Khatam-an-Nubuwwah

[ZulFiqar]

The Imamiya Shi’a assert that Hadith al-Manzila is a critical proof text for the Prophet ﷺ having named sayyidina Ali b. Abi Talib^RA as his successor. The standard Sunni reply to this argument is that, although Hadith al-Manzila is an important Hadith regarding the virtue and excellence of sayyidina Ali^RA, it is not a proof for him being the divinely appointed Imam after the death of the Prophet ﷺ. Undoubtedly, the Sunni response has merit because the context of this Hadith is concerning the absence of the Prophet ﷺ from Medina due to his going on the expedition of Tabuk, and leaving behind sayyidina Ali^RA as his minister and chosen representative for the duration of his absence only. Here is where the parable of Prophets Moses and Aaron is especially relevant: “O Ali, are you not happy that your position to me is like the position of Aaron to Moses, except that there is no Prophet after me.” Now it is known that the Prophet Moses only appointed his elder brother Aaron as his chosen representative for the duration of his absence – the forty nights when he went up to Mt. Sinai to receive the Torah from God. Aaron was not named as Prophet Moses’s successor to succeed him after his death. In fact, Aaron, being older than Moses, died in the latter’s own lifetime. The successor of Prophet Moses after his death was Prophet Joshua son of Nun. Now had the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ compared sayyidina Ali^RA to Joshua, the argument of the Imamiya Shi’a that he intended to designate Ali^RA as his successor after his death would certainly hold water.

Coming to the concluding words of the Hadith “except there is no Prophet after me”, mainstream Ulama understand this to be an explicit and strong proof that the Prophet ﷺ meant there could be no Prophet after his death. Hence they interpret بعدى Ba’di or “after me” to mean “after my death there is no Prophet to come”. But this interpretation of Ba’di is inconsistent with the overall Sunni interpretation of the Hadith.

The Prophet ﷺ compared Ali^RA to Prophet Aaron but then qualified that comparison by saying “there is no Prophet after me” because Aaron is a Prophet, and people might wrongly imagine that Ali being compared to Aaron means Ali is likewise a Prophet. So far so good except for the fact that Aaron died in the lifetime of Prophet Moses, the Prophet who came after Moses was Joshua as I clarified earlier. Therefore, the correct meaning of La Nabi Ba’di in this context is “there is no other Prophet in my absence”, like Aaron was a Prophet who lead the Bani Israel during the temporary absence of Prophet Moses when he went up to Mt. Sinai.

So the word Ba’d “after” in the Hadith al-Manzila needs to be understood in relation to the absence of Prophet Moses for 40 nights:

وَإِذْ وَاعَدْنَا مُوسَىٰ أَرْبَعِينَ لَيْلَةً ثُمَّ اتَّخَذْتُمُ الْعِجْلَ مِن بَعْدِهِ
And when we appointed for Moses forty nights, then you took the calf (in worship) in his absence [min Ba’dihi]
Sura 2:51

ثُمَّ اتَّخَذْتُمُ الْعِجْلَ مِن بَعْدِهِ
Then you took the calf (in worship) in his absence [min Ba’dihi]

وَاتَّخَذَ قَوْمُ مُوسَىٰ مِن بَعْدِهِ مِنْ حُلِيِّهِمْ عِجْلًا جَسَدًا لَّهُ خُوَارٌ
And the people of Moses took, in his absence [min Ba’dihi] out of their ornaments, a statue of a calf
Sura 7:148

وَلَمَّا رَجَعَ مُوسَىٰ إِلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ غَضْبَانَ أَسِفًا قَالَ بِئْسَمَا خَلَفْتُمُونِي مِن بَعْدِي
And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said: “what an evil thing you have done during my absence [min Ba’di]"

Sura 7:150

If one interprets the Hadith al-Manzila where the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ said “except there is no Prophet after me” as meaning, there will be no Prophet after I die, instead of restricting the meaning of this phrase to mean “no other Prophet in my absence”, one is in fact inadvertently giving ammunition to the Imamiya Shi’a. If anyone has seen Ammar Nakhshwani’s old lecture Analysis of Hadith al Manzilah they will know exactly what I mean. According to the Shi’a, by saying “there is no Prophet after me”, the Prophet was hinting at Ali being his successor “after him” meaning after his death. Only if Ba’di is interpreted as “in my absence” can the Sunnis satisfactorily answer the doubt of the Imamiya Shi’a.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

According to the Holy Qur'an, Jesus said that a Messenger named Ahmad will come after his death:

وَمُبَشِّرًا بِرَسُولٍ يَأْتِي مِن بَعْدِي اسْمُهُ أَحْمَدُ
I give glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, his name is Ahmad (Sura 61:6)

Now this was a prophecy about Prophet Muhammad, whose other name is Ahmad صلى الله عليه وسلم

Jesus said "Min Ba'di" which can only mean after my death. If Jesus was still alive when the Prophet Muhammad was born, he would not have said "after me".

أَمْ كُنتُمْ شُهَدَاءَ إِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوبَ الْمَوْتُ إِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيهِ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن بَعْدِي
Or were you witnesses when death came to Jacob; when he said to his sons: "Who will you worship after me?" (2:133)

Jacob said who will you worship MIN BA'DI "after me" meaning "After my death"

Likewise the King Solomon prayed:

قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّن بَعْدِي

He said: "My Lord forgive me and grant me a Kingdom such as shall not be given to anyone after my death" (38:25)

Solomon said no one should be granted such a kingdom MIN BA'DI "after me" meaning "after my death"[/size]

Again your argument is weak and irrational. You say it ONLY means after his death, but the correct answer is that, it can ALSO mean after my departure.

Like how Ibn Katheer used the word Ba'adah for Isa(as).

" فإن المسيح عليه السلام لمَّا رفعه الله إلى السماء : تَفَرَّقت أصحابه شيَعًا بعده
Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said in Tafseer Ibn Katheer (2/47): When Allah took the Messiah (peace be upon him) up to heaven/sky, his followers split into sects after he was gone.

Also take a note that, Min Ba'di doesn't necessarily apply the condition of death. For example Prophet(Saws) said:

النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ لِعَلِيٍّ ‏ "‏ أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي ‏"‏
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: that the Prophet (ﷺ) said to 'Ali: "You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa, except that there is no Prophet after me." [Jam'i al-Tirmidhi. Book 49, Hadith 4095; Sahih]

Prophet(saws) compared Ali(ra) to Haroon(as) who was Prophet during time of Musa(as), that is why Prophet(saws) said that there will be no Prophet after him, be it in his lifetime or death. Haroon(as) died during the lifetime of Musa(as), but when Prophet Muhammad(saws) compared him to Ali(ra), he had to end any possibility of doubt regarding finality of Prophethood, be it in his life time or after his death, hence he used the words "AFTER ME" which aren't restricted of death alone

P.S: This was my response to your argument in the other thread.

[ZulFiqar]

Also take a note that, Min Ba'di doesn't necessarily apply the condition of death. For example Prophet(Saws) said:

النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ لِعَلِيٍّ ‏ "‏ أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي ‏"‏
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: that the Prophet (ﷺ) said to 'Ali: "You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa, except that there is no Prophet after me." [Jam'i al-Tirmidhi. Book 49, Hadith 4095; Sahih]

Prophet(saws) compared Ali(ra) to Haroon(as) who was Prophet during time of Musa(as), that is why Prophet(saws) said that there will be no Prophet after him, be it in his lifetime or death. Haroon(as) died during the lifetime of Musa(as), but when Prophet Muhammad(saws) compared him to Ali(ra), he had to end any possibility of doubt regarding finality of Prophethood, be it in his life time or after his death, hence he used the words "AFTER ME" which aren't restricted of death alone

P.S: This was my response to your argument in the other thread.

Firstly I'm glad that you agree that in the Hadith al-Manzila, when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said "La Nabiy Ba'di" you have interpreted "Min Ba'di doesn't necessarily apply the condition of death" (your words)

Now if you are implying that I am contradicting myself by stating in that other thread that Ba'di means "after my death" and here I am arguing it means "in my absence", then you have altogether overlooked the crucial element of context.

My argument is not linguistic but contextual. The word ba'd has multiple meanings, including absence. It is the context of its usage which will determine its correct meaning. Here the context quite manifestly means absence as you yourself admitted. There, in Sura 61:6, there is no indication of a temporary absence. But here, all the verses I have quoted concerning Prophet Moses make plain the meaning of Ba'd as absence and not death.

[Hani]

Yep, seems to be linguistically proper. I don't have an issue with interpreting it as "in my absence." But I'd have to double check in the Ma'ajim to make sure it's accurate.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Firstly I'm glad that you agree that in the Hadith al-Manzila, when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said "La Nabiy Ba'di" you have interpreted "Min Ba'di doesn't necessarily apply the condition of death" (your words)

Now if you are implying that I am contradicting myself by stating in that other thread that Ba'di means "after my death" and here I am arguing it means "in my absence", then you have altogether overlooked the crucial element of context.

My argument is not linguistic but contextual. The word ba'd has multiple meanings, including absence. It is the context of its usage which will determine its correct meaning. Here the context quite manifestly means absence as you yourself admitted. There, in Sura 61:6, there is no indication of a temporary absence. But here, all the verses I have quoted concerning Prophet Moses make plain the meaning of Ba'd as absence and not death.

In Surah 61:6, its not clear about temporary absence nor death, hence we Ahlus-sunnah interpret that verse and the meaning of Ba'd in the light of Prophetic ahadeeth. Hence as per Prophetic ahadeeth, we come to know that the verse is talking about not death.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Coming to the concluding words of the Hadith “except there is no Prophet after me”, mainstream Ulama understand this to be an explicit and strong proof that the Prophet ﷺ meant there could be no Prophet after his death. Hence they interpret بعدى Ba’di or “after me” to mean “after my death there is no Prophet to come”. But this interpretation of Ba’di is inconsistent with the overall Sunni interpretation of the Hadith.

....Only if Ba’di is interpreted as “in my absence” can the Sunnis satisfactorily answer the doubt of the Imamiya Shi’a.[/size][/font]

I don't get what point you are trying to make. Anyways let me assume your argument and post these reports.

حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي أَسْمَاءَ الرَّحَبِيِّ، عَنْ ثَوْبَانَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَلْحَقَ قَبَائِلُ مِنْ أُمَّتِي بِالْمُشْرِكِينَ وَحَتَّى يَعْبُدُوا الأَوْثَانَ وَإِنَّهُ سَيَكُونُ فِي أُمَّتِي ثَلاَثُونَ كَذَّابُونَ كُلُّهُمْ يَزْعُمُ أَنَّهُ نَبِيٌّ وَأَنَا خَاتَمُ النَّبِيِّينَ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي
Thawban narrated that the Messenger of Allah(s.a.w) said: "The Hour shall not be established until tribes of my Ummah unite with the idolaters, and until they worship idols. And indeed there shall be thirty imposters in my Ummah,each of them claiming that he is a Prophet. And I am the last of the Prophets, there is no Prophet after me."[Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2219; Sahih]

قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ فَإِنِّي آخِرُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَإِنَّهُ آخِرُ الْمَسَاجِدِ
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I am the last of the prophets and it is the last of the Masjids. [Sunan an-Nasa'i 694: Sahih]

In another narration:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)

[ZulFiqar]

I don't get what point you are trying to make. Anyways let me assume your argument and post these reports.

حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي أَسْمَاءَ الرَّحَبِيِّ، عَنْ ثَوْبَانَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَلْحَقَ قَبَائِلُ مِنْ أُمَّتِي بِالْمُشْرِكِينَ وَحَتَّى يَعْبُدُوا الأَوْثَانَ وَإِنَّهُ سَيَكُونُ فِي أُمَّتِي ثَلاَثُونَ كَذَّابُونَ كُلُّهُمْ يَزْعُمُ أَنَّهُ نَبِيٌّ وَأَنَا خَاتَمُ النَّبِيِّينَ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي
Thawban narrated that the Messenger of Allah(s.a.w) said: "The Hour shall not be established until tribes of my Ummah unite with the idolaters, and until they worship idols. And indeed there shall be thirty imposters in my Ummah,each of them claiming that he is a Prophet. And I am the last of the Prophets, there is no Prophet after me."[Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2219; Sahih]

My point is not to deny that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last of the Prophets. Of course he is the Last. But incidentally, your belief in the Nuzul al-Masih is an apparent violation of the Finality of Prophethood. If Sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet, then how can Jesus, who is a Prophet, come in the future?

قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ فَإِنِّي آخِرُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَإِنَّهُ آخِرُ الْمَسَاجِدِ
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I am the last of the prophets and it is the last of the Masjids. [Sunan an-Nasa'i 694: Sahih]

In fact this Hadith is authentic and reported in Sahih Muslim, though you have quoted it from Nasa'i sharif. And this Hadith is very beneficial in clarifying the reality of Khatam-an-Nubuwwah, because we know that the Prophet's Mosque in Medina is not literally the Last Mosque, there have been thousands and tens of thousands of Mosques built after it. But it is the last Mosque to bear such sanctity and a special status. So this Hadith makes a distinction between special Mosques and ordinary Mosques, with the Prophet's Mosque being the Last in a specific category of special mosques, not the last Mosque absolutely. Likewise, our Prophet Muhammad is the Last Prophet in a specific category of Prophets, i.e., real and independent Prophets, not Prophets absolutely, which can include semi-prophets, prophet-like figures, Muhaddathoon, and the concept of the continuity of a Nubuwwah within the Ummah as held to be the Sufiya.

In another narration:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)

I'd be interested to examine the Sanad of this Hadith, even if Albani has authenticated it.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

I don't get what point you are trying to make. Anyways let me assume your argument and post these reports.

حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي أَسْمَاءَ الرَّحَبِيِّ، عَنْ ثَوْبَانَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَلْحَقَ قَبَائِلُ مِنْ أُمَّتِي بِالْمُشْرِكِينَ وَحَتَّى يَعْبُدُوا الأَوْثَانَ وَإِنَّهُ سَيَكُونُ فِي أُمَّتِي ثَلاَثُونَ كَذَّابُونَ كُلُّهُمْ يَزْعُمُ أَنَّهُ نَبِيٌّ وَأَنَا خَاتَمُ النَّبِيِّينَ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي
Thawban narrated that the Messenger of Allah(s.a.w) said: "The Hour shall not be established until tribes of my Ummah unite with the idolaters, and until they worship idols. And indeed there shall be thirty imposters in my Ummah,each of them claiming that he is a Prophet. And I am the last of the Prophets, there is no Prophet after me."[Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2219; Sahih]

My point is not to deny that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last of the Prophets. Of course he is the Last. But incidentally, your belief in the Nuzul al-Masih is an apparent violation of the Finality of Prophethood. If Sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet, then how can Jesus, who is a Prophet, come in the future?

We don't believe that he would claim Prophethood iover Muslim Ummah in his second coming.

تكون النبوة فيكم ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج النبوة ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون ملكا عاضا ، فتكون ما شاء الله أن تكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون ملكا جبرية فيكون ما شاء الله أن يكون ، ثم يرفعها الله – تعالى – ، ثم تكون خلافة على منهاج نبوة . ثم سكت . . .
الراوي: النعمان بن بشير المحدث: الألباني – المصدر: تخريج مشكاة المصابيح – الصفحة أو الرقم: 5306
خلاصة حكم المحدث: إسناده حسن

Al-Nauman ibn Basheer told us: The Prophet PBUH said: ‘Prophethood will remain in you for as long as God decides for it to remain and then God will remove it when He decides to remove it. After Prophet hood, there will be a Caliphate on the style of prophethood and it will exist for as long as God decides for it to exist, then He will remove it when He decides to remove it. Then there will be a kingdom in which people will face trials and tribulations and it will continue to exist for as long as God decides for it to exist. Then He will remove it, when He decides to remove it. After this, there will be an oppressive kingdom and it will continue to exist for as long as God decides for it to exist. Then He will remove it, when He decides to remove it. Then there will once again be a Caliphate on the style of prophet hood. After saying this, the Prophet (pbuh) was silent.’
source: Takhreej Mishat al Masabih #5306.

Sahi muslim 4.661: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number.” The people asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?” He said, “Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship.”

From these two ahadeeth we find that there is no hint of Prophethood after Muhammad(Saws). Thus Ahlus-Sunnah doesn't believe that Isa(as) would claim Prophethood over Muslim Ummah in his second coming.

قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ فَإِنِّي آخِرُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَإِنَّهُ آخِرُ الْمَسَاجِدِ
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I am the last of the prophets and it is the last of the Masjids. [Sunan an-Nasa'i 694: Sahih]

In fact this Hadith is authentic and reported in Sahih Muslim, though you have quoted it from Nasa'i sharif. And this Hadith is very beneficial in clarifying the reality of Khatam-an-Nubuwwah, because we know that the Prophet's Mosque in Medina is not literally the Last Mosque, there have been thousands and tens of thousands of Mosques built after it. But it is the last Mosque to bear such sanctity and a special status. So this Hadith makes a distinction between special Mosques and ordinary Mosques, with the Prophet's Mosque being the Last in a specific category of special mosques, not the last Mosque absolutely. Likewise, our Prophet Muhammad is the Last Prophet in a specific category of Prophets, i.e., real and independent Prophets, not Prophets absolutely, which can include semi-prophets, prophet-like figures, Muhaddathoon, and the concept of the continuity of a Nubuwwah within the Ummah as held to be the Sufiya.

This nonsensical trash was destroyed by the hadeeth I gave, which explains the wording of hadeeth.

The above hadeeth is explained by this hadeeth:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)

In another narration:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)

I'd be interested to examine the Sanad of this Hadith, even if Albani has authenticated it.
[/quote]
Even if the hadeeth below was weak it would have been still better than the theories of some nobody.

Ibn Hazm said:... a weak hadith is dearer to me than mere opinion." [Fiqh us Sunnah]

Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal said , " Weak Hadith is dearer to me than Opinion" [Ibn Hazm , Al Muhalla , 3/61 ]

Ibn Mandah reported from Imam Abu Dawud, that Abu Dawud used to cite the chain of transmission of a weak hadith if he did not find other than it under that particular heading [baab], and that he considered it stronger evidence than opinion of people . [ Tadreeb al Rawi , Page : 111]

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[ZulFiqar]

We don't believe that he would claim Prophethood iover Muslim Ummah in his second coming.
Thus Ahlus-Sunnah doesn't believe that Isa(as) would claim Prophethood over Muslim Ummah in his second coming.

This requires clarification. What do you mean by "claiming Prophethood over the Muslim Ummah"? Please clarify whether sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام is a Prophet of Allah, and upon his second advent will he retain this status and office of being Allah's Prophet? Or are you saying that he will be demoted in status and become a non-Prophet? During the second advent will it remain an article of faith for the Muslims to believe in sayyidina Eisa as a Prophet of Allah, or will the necessity of such a belief be either terminated or suspended? Or do you say that sayyidina Eisa remains a Prophet but his Nubuwwah is inoperable and that he does not function as a Prophet despite technically being a Prophet? Will the forty-six attributes of Prophethood remain within sayyidina Eisa or will they be taken away from him? For example, will he continue to receive Wahi during his second advent or not?

From these two ahadeeth we find that there is no hint of Prophethood after Muhammad(Saws).

In Sha Allah, I will cite to you other absolutely authentic Ahadith which does indeed "hint" at something of a remnant or partial Nubuwwah remaining in the Ummah. But before we get to that point I'd appreciate if you clarify your aqida regarding the status of the Nubuwwah of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام during his second advent.

This nonsensical trash was destroyed by the hadeeth I gave, which explains the wording of hadeeth.

The above hadeeth is explained by this hadeeth:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنا خاتم الأنبياء ومسجدي خاتم مساجد الأنبياء
Holy Prophet (PBUH) said; "I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." (Kanz al-Ummal 12/270 H.34999. Albani authenticated in Sahih Targheeb wa Tarheeb H. 1175)

I do not reject this narration insofar as it is explaining the meaning of "my Mosque is the Last of the Mosques". My point is that the authentic narration from Sahih Muslim has only this wording "my Mosque is the Last of the Mosques" and without any explanation, its apparent meaning is that the Prophet's Mosque is literally the last and final Mosque absolutely, and there can be no Mosque constructed after it. That is the apparent meaning of the Hadith. If other Ahadith, whether authentic or weak, clarify the meaning of this Hadith, that doesn't negate the authentically established wording of it. I am not arguing over your explanation of the meaning of the Hadith, in fact I accept it. So my point is that the narrations you are bringing such as "I am the Last Prophet" "No Prophet after me" etc., likewise these narrations have an apparent meaning, but are also qualified and have important exceptions in light of other Ahadith.

Even if the hadeeth below was weak it would have been still better than the theories of some nobody.

Ibn Hazm said:... a weak hadith is dearer to me than mere opinion." [Fiqh us Sunnah]

Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal said , " Weak Hadith is dearer to me than Opinion" [Ibn Hazm , Al Muhalla , 3/61 ]

Ibn Mandah reported from Imam Abu Dawud, that Abu Dawud used to cite the chain of transmission of a weak hadith if he did not find other than it under that particular heading [baab], and that he considered it stronger evidence than opinion of people . [ Tadreeb al Rawi , Page : 111]

Firstly, when these Muhaditheen say weak Hadith, they are actually meaning Hadith that reach the level of Hasan, and not referring to the undisputedly weak, very weak and certainly not fabricated Ahadith. And they are also speaking in the context of the Furu'i Masa'il, not in the context of Usul or Aqaid.

Secondly, as I shall demonstrate In Sha Allah, this is not an opinion out of thin air. It has a strong basis in Qur'an & Sunna. But we will cross that bridge when we come to it. For now I would like for you to clarify the status of the Nubuwwah of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام during his second advent.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

@zulfiqar

Your intentions are obvious & becoming clearer with each post.

For example this thread is really you opening up the doubt in finality of prophethood to support the belief of the qadiani's. You deviously covered it under a wannabe shia-sunni polemic garb.

Infact more or less all your threads are cleverly disguised in making them look like aimed at shia but really the ulterior motive is to promote your qadiani belief amongst th sunni's on here.

Qadiani's promote a group of articulate educated missionaries amongst them & I have no doubt you are along them lines.

Doesn't matter if some on here are fooled by you or are merely just being extremely tolerant.

Be academically honest for once I just title your threads with your intentions.

So far you are being very dishonest in your approach.

No matter how hard you try to convert people to your qadian beliefs, no sane muslim would accept the liar who died on a toilet after he issued a death challenge!!!

[ZulFiqar]

@zulfiqar

Your intentions are obvious & becoming clearer with each post.

For example this thread is really you opening up the doubt in finality of prophethood to support the belief of the qadiani's. You deviously covered it under a wannabe shia-sunni polemic garb.

Infact more or less all your threads are cleverly disguised in making them look like aimed at shia but really the ulterior motive is to promote your qadiani belief amongst th sunni's on here.

Qadiani's promote a group of articulate educated missionaries amongst them & I have no doubt you are along them lines.

Doesn't matter if some on here are fooled by you or are merely just being extremely tolerant.

Be academically honest for once I just title your threads with your intentions.

So far you are being very dishonest in your approach.

No matter how hard you try to convert people to your qadian beliefs, no sane muslim would accept the liar who died on a toilet after he issued a death challenge!!!

Sir I've made my intentions clear. I'm not here to cheer on the Sunni side, but to challenge Sunnis to re-evaluate some of their beliefs which are giving ammunition for the Shi'a. You think this is promoting Ahmadiyya but it really isn't. Yes I openly admit that I am influenced by some of the thoughts and ideas of Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani whom I hold in high esteem, but I do not blindly follow him or any other imam. I only aspire to follow completely and absolutely my Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم who I regard as the Seal of the Prophets. I challenge you to discuss ideas not personalities. It doesn't make sense to say this idea is wrong because it seems like it is promoting or favoring this sect or this person that I don't like. That is being neither objective nor sincere. Instead, search for and accept the truth from whatever source you come across, as long as it is true and in accordance with the essential teachings of the divine Revelation.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

You say you believe the Prophet Muhammad SAW is the last prophet.
Then a few lines later you say only a specific prophethood ended with him & absolute prophethood didn't end.

[MuslimK]

@Zulfiqar

Here is one of the Sunni responses to Shia interpretation of Hadith al-Manzilah:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/07/30/response-to-the-hadith-of-manzila/

[Hadrami]

@zulfiqar

Your intentions are obvious & becoming clearer with each post.

I knew he was a qadiyani in disguise & a liar from his website. Just visit and read whats in it. Read what he wrote about that died in his poopoo false prophet.

For example this thread is really you opening up the doubt in finality of prophethood to support the belief of the qadiani's. You deviously covered it under a wannabe shia-sunni polemic garb.

Infact more or less all your threads are cleverly disguised in making them look like aimed at shia but really the ulterior motive is to promote your qadiani belief amongst th sunni's on here.

One of the reason why i despise & hate shia is their lying double face taqiyya when they try to promote their belief to people who don't know much about shitism. You can tell this false prophet's fan is using similar technique.

Doesn't matter if some on here are fooled by you or are merely just being extremely tolerant.

hopefully most of the seasoned members here are just being tolerant otherwise im really dissapointed if they can be easily fooled since we have dealt with shia using similar dishonest approach many times here

[Hadrami]

Sir I've made my intentions clear. I'm not here to cheer on the Sunni side, but to challenge Sunnis to re-evaluate some of their beliefs which are giving ammunition for the Shi'a.

Its your false prophet belief which gives ammunition for shia, not our beliefs. We've been smashing shitism here for fun & your died in his poop false prophet's belief doesnt mean poop (pun intended). Shia will laugh at your qadiyani belief.

[ZulFiqar]

You say you believe the Prophet Muhammad SAW is the last prophet.
Then a few lines later you say only a specific prophethood ended with him & absolute prophethood didn't end.

What I say is the same thing as the gnostic Sufis regarding Nubuwwah; there is no Prophet after Sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم that can bring a new Shari'a, start a new Millat, or is a real and independent Prophet, in other words, a Prophet in his own essence. But there can and have come righteous saints within the Umma who due to their extreme piety, emulation and love of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم began to reflect some of his light. Hence, they became colored with the Prophet's color, and act as a projection of his blessed person. This is a concept known as Fana fil-Rasul, when a person resembles the Prophet and follows him to such a degree that his own essence and personality fades into the background, and all we see from him is a manifestation of the Prophet's character and attributes. So the Nubuwwah of sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the final and greatest specimen of Nubuwwah, but there are saints from his Umma, who by following him intensely, can become colored with the color of that Nubuwwah.

I often give the parable of the sun and moon for people who have difficulty understanding this point. The sun in its essence is a Siraj (lamp), an independent source of blazing light. But at night time, when the Sun has set, we can still benefit from the sun's light through the agency of the full moon. The Moon in its essence is not a lamp or source of light. It is a sphere of barren rock. But it reflects the light of the sun. Likewise, in the Umma, there are Awliya who reflect the light (Nubuwwah) of the Prophet. It is not their own Nubuwwah, the Nubuwwah of Muhammad is the final Nubuwwah, but that Nubuwwah can be reflected from multitude of saints, who are a repository of that light. Those saints are not Prophets in their own essence.

Furthermore, these saintly individuals from the Umma who, due to receiving frequent Ilham and true visions and being conversant with Allah, possess a partial degree of Nubuwwah that from a linguistic sense they can be called Nabi. They are called Nabi in the Sufi Istilah (terminology), but technically they are Muhaddath in the Shari' Istilah.

So indeed Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is absolutely the Last and Final Prophet, both chronologically and he is also the Khaatam (Seal) of the Prophets in the sense of being the ultimate and culmination in degree and rank, meaning the supreme Prophet.

[ZulFiqar]

@Zulfiqar

Here is one of the Sunni responses to Shia interpretation of Hadith al-Manzilah:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/07/30/response-to-the-hadith-of-manzila/

I did read this article, but its major shortcoming is that it did not address the Shi'a argument that when the Prophet told Ali "except that there is no Prophet after me" that was an indication that Ali would succeed the Prophet after his death despite not being a Prophet. So they base the bulk of their argument on "after me". This is why what I wrote in the OP addresses the dilemma of "after me", this issue was not addressed at all not only in the article of twelvershia.net but by virtually every Sunni response and explanation of the Hadith al-Manzila.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

You say you believe the Prophet Muhammad SAW is the last prophet.
Then a few lines later you say only a specific prophethood ended with him & absolute prophethood didn't end.

What I say is the same thing as the gnostic Sufis regarding Nubuwwah; there is no Prophet after Sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم that can bring a new Shari'a, start a new Millat, or is a real and independent Prophet, in other words, a Prophet in his own essence. But there can and have come righteous saints within the Umma who due to their extreme piety, emulation and love of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم began to reflect some of his light. Hence, they became colored with the Prophet's color, and act as a projection of his blessed person. This is a concept known as Fana fil-Rasul, when a person resembles the Prophet and follows him to such a degree that his own essence and personality fades into the background, and all we see from him is a manifestation of the Prophet's character and attributes. So the Nubuwwah of sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the final and greatest specimen of Nubuwwah, but there are saints from his Umma, who by following him intensely, can become colored with the color of that Nubuwwah.

I often give the parable of the sun and moon for people who have difficulty understanding this point. The sun in its essence is a Siraj (lamp), an independent source of blazing light. But at night time, when the Sun has set, we can still benefit from the sun's light through the agency of the full moon. The Moon in its essence is not a lamp or source of light. It is a sphere of barren rock. But it reflects the light of the sun. Likewise, in the Umma, there are Awliya who reflect the light (Nubuwwah) of the Prophet. It is not their own Nubuwwah, the Nubuwwah of Muhammad is the final Nubuwwah, but that Nubuwwah can be reflected from multitude of saints, who are a repository of that light. Those saints are not Prophets in their own essence.

Furthermore, these saintly individuals from the Umma who, due to receiving frequent Ilham and true visions and being conversant with Allah, possess a partial degree of Nubuwwah that from a linguistic sense they can be called Nabi. They are called Nabi in the Sufi Istilah (terminology), but technically they are Muhaddath in the Shari' Istilah.

So indeed Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is absolutely the Last and Final Prophet, both chronologically and he is also the Khaatam (Seal) of the Prophets in the sense of being the ultimate and culmination in degree and rank, meaning the supreme Prophet.

You sound like the shia such as the member called link when he always waffles philosophical mumbo jumbo to explain or dodge a position.

The jist is that you are lying to either yourself or us or even both. Don't say you have same belief as us then turn round & say thr complete opposite & try to sugar coat the contradiction.

Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??

[ZulFiqar]

You sound like the shia such as the member called link when he always waffles philosophical mumbo jumbo to explain or dodge a position.

The jist is that you are lying to either yourself or us or even both. Don't say you have same belief as us then turn round & say thr complete opposite & try to sugar coat the contradiction.

Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??

So you are rejecting 'Ilm-ul-Mantiq altogether as a beneficial form of knowledge to explain and understand difficult theological concepts? Alright then I will show you how hollow and exposed you are if you don't want to discuss this issue from a "philosophical" perspective.

Now I assume you believe Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet. Do you also believe in the second coming of Jesus, another Prophet? If your answer is in the affirmative, I will ask you the same questions I have asked and am still expecting an answer from Noor-us-Sunnah:

Please clarify whether sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام is a Prophet of Allah, and upon his second advent will he retain this status and office of being Allah's Prophet? Or are you saying that he will be demoted in status and become a non-Prophet? During the second advent will it remain an article of faith for the Muslims to believe in sayyidina Eisa as a Prophet of Allah, or will the necessity of such a belief be either terminated or suspended? Or do you say that sayyidina Eisa remains a Prophet but his Nubuwwah is inoperable and that he does not function as a Prophet despite technically being a Prophet? Will the forty-six attributes of Prophethood remain within sayyidina Eisa or will they be taken away from him? For example, will he continue to receive Wahi during his second advent or not?

I look forward to reading your answers.

[ZulFiqar]

Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??

Before I answer this question and we get into that discussion, I encourage you to read the references I've already cited from the Sufis regarding Nubuwwah on my blog:

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/sufi.html

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/khatam-nubuwwah.html

So if you go through these 2 sections of my blog 1. Khatam-an-Nubuwwah and 2. Sufism, you will find literally dozens of references from various Sufis believing their Awliya to be the Prophet Muhammad, or bearing characteristics of Nubuwwah