Hadith al-Manzilah and Khatam-an-Nubuwwah

[zaid_ibn_ali]

You sound like the shia such as the member called link when he always waffles philosophical mumbo jumbo to explain or dodge a position.

The jist is that you are lying to either yourself or us or even both. Don't say you have same belief as us then turn round & say thr complete opposite & try to sugar coat the contradiction.

Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??

So you are rejecting 'Ilm-ul-Mantiq altogether as a beneficial form of knowledge to explain and understand difficult theological concepts? Alright then I will show you how hollow and exposed you are if you don't want to discuss this issue from a "philosophical" perspective.

Now I assume you believe Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet. Do you also believe in the second coming of Jesus, another Prophet? If your answer is in the affirmative, I will ask you the same questions I have asked and am still expecting an answer from Noor-us-Sunnah:

Please clarify whether sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام is a Prophet of Allah, and upon his second advent will he retain this status and office of being Allah's Prophet? Or are you saying that he will be demoted in status and become a non-Prophet? During the second advent will it remain an article of faith for the Muslims to believe in sayyidina Eisa as a Prophet of Allah, or will the necessity of such a belief be either terminated or suspended? Or do you say that sayyidina Eisa remains a Prophet but his Nubuwwah is inoperable and that he does not function as a Prophet despite technically being a Prophet? Will the forty-six attributes of Prophethood remain within sayyidina Eisa or will they be taken away from him? For example, will he continue to receive Wahi during his second advent or not?

I look forward to reading your answers.

Isa AS was a prophet before the prophet muhammad SAW carried his mission.

Mirza ghulam ahmed i'm sure choked in his own feacess over a milenium after the time of the prophet muhammad SAW & not before. So the analogy is not valid.

If you really want to get technical then on the day of judgement when all the prophets are gathered, the prophet muhammad SAW will be their leader & still the seal & technically Isa AS second return still does not cancel the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad SAW😃😃

Mirza ghulam was never a prophet before nor after nor will be.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Which major sufi ever said he believed in any pious wali as being a prophet after the prophet muhammed SAW??

Before I answer this question and we get into that discussion, I encourage you to read the references I've already cited from the Sufis regarding Nubuwwah on my blog:

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/sufi.html

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/khatam-nubuwwah.html

So if you go through these 2 sections of my blog 1. Khatam-an-Nubuwwah and 2. Sufism, you will find literally dozens of references from various Sufis believing their Awliya to be the Prophet Muhammad, or bearing characteristics of Nubuwwah

I didn't ask whether any sufis considered their awliya as the prophet muhammad SAW or if they had characteristics of a prophet.

I asked you to cite me major sufis who believed any pious figure as a prophet after the prophet muhammad SAW.

Don't feed me links to your site please as i'm not interested in giving it hits.

Post your evidence here please.

[ZulFiqar]

Isa AS was a prophet before the prophet muhammad SAW carried his mission.

Mirza ghulam ahmed i'm sure choked in his own feacess over a milenium after the time of the prophet muhammad SAW & not before. So the analogy is not valid.

If you really want to get technical then on the day of judgement when all the prophets are gathered, the prophet muhammad SAW will be their leader & still the seal & technically Isa AS second return still does not cancel the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad SAW😃😃

Mirza ghulam was never a prophet before nor after nor will be.

Did I ever say Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a Prophet? We are discussing the cessation of Nubuwwah not the personality of Ghulam Ahmad. Keep that in mind and try not to steer away. It's ironic that you accuse me of subverting these topics in order to propagate Ahmadiyya, when the fact is that it is you who keeps on bringing up Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, not me.

Next you did not answer a single one of my questions regarding sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام. You completely dodged those questions because you know that if you try to answer them you will not only ensnare yourself in a trap but expose how hollow and self-contradictory your belief in Khatm-un-Nubuwwah really is. So once again I am listing those questions and hoping for the last time you will at least make an attempt to answer them:

1. Is Jesus a Prophet of Allah?

2. During the second advent, will Jesus retain his status and office of being a Prophet?

3. Will Jesus be demoted in status and become a non-Prophet during his second advent?

4. Will it remain an article of faith to believe in Jesus as a Prophet of Allah during the second advent?

5. If Jesus remains a Prophet, will his Nubuwwah be operable and functioning during the second advent?

6. Will the forty some parts of Nubuwwah continue to be manifested by Jesus during his second advent?

7. Will Jesus continue to receive Wahi from Allah during his second advent?

Not only you, but I challenge anyone to answer these 7 questions specifically without dodging or derailing.

All you said was that Jesus was a Prophet before sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, so his second advent does not clash with the doctrine of Khatm-un-Nubuwwah

Now I will expose how weak and hollow this argument is:

1. Do you believe that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was a Prophet in the Sight of Allah while Adam was still being created, as it comes in the Hadith:

إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ لَخَاتَمُ النَّبِيِّينَ ، وَإِنَّ آدَمَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام لَمُنْجَدِلٌ فِي طِينَتِهِ
I am the servant of Allah, the Seal of the Prophets, and Adam peace be upon him was still kneaded in his clay
(Musnad Ahmad)

2. If Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was a Prophet from that primordial time when Adam was still being shaped from clay, then it means that not only Jesus, but all other Prophets became Prophets after sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم

3. If Jesus of Nazareth became a Prophet after sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم then your argument that he was a Prophet from before sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is broken

4. What is the meaning of Last? Does it mean the last to become something, or the last one to remain?

5. If Last means the last one to become something, then who was the Last Sahabi of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم?

6. The last of the Sahaba to die was Abu Tufail رضى الله عنه who died in 100 H, but he was not the last person to become a Sahabi. The last person to become a Sahabi died prior to Abu Tufail, who was the last Sahabi that died.

7. Imam adh-Dhahabi therefore refers to Abu Tufail as the خاتم الصحابة "Seal of the Sahaba" (al-Kashif; v.1 p.527). This proves that being the Last of the Sahaba means the Last Sahabi to die from among the Sahaba, not the last person to become a Sahabi.

8. Does the Finality of Muhammad's Prophethood possess a purpose and wisdom, or is it merely semantic? If it possesses a purpose and wisdom, then to say that Jesus who is a Prophet will return after the death of sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, but this does not contravene the finality of Prophethood because he was a Prophet from before, is merely a semantic point.

9. If I am a King and possess a kingdom, but my desire is that I should be the last King and after me kingdom should end and there should be democracy. So I say "I am the last king, khalas, after me no more kingdom". Then after I die, a man comes from another land where he used to be king, and says "I was a king before your king died, so if you make a king of your country you will technically not violate the command "I am the last king no king after me", because I was a king before your king. Then this other man becomes a king and so kingdom continues and there is no democracy.

Will the king who died and left in his will "no king after me" be happy with this turn of events based on a loophole and semantic point, ignoring his overall purpose in saying "no king after me"?

[ZulFiqar]

I didn't ask whether any sufis considered their awliya as the prophet muhammad SAW or if they had characteristics of a prophet.

I asked you to cite me major sufis who believed any pious figure as a prophet after the prophet muhammad SAW.

Don't feed me links to your site please as i'm not interested in giving it hits.

Post your evidence here please.

It's a strawman argument, because neither do I claim that nor believe any pious figure to be a Prophet after the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم. Yes, the issue of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام who is fully a Prophet, and you believe will come back into this Earth, remains to be resolved. I have put forward to you 7 precise questions which require precise answers. I have also demolished your idea that since Jesus was a Prophet from before Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, hence his return to this Earth as a Prophet does not clash with the doctrine of Khatm-an-Nubuwwah. Read my response to that absolutely demolishing your argument and answer it first.

And when you say: "I didn't ask whether any sufis considered their awliya as the prophet muhammad SAW or if they had characteristics of a prophet." are you not tacitly confessing that you know that the Sufis have considered some of their awliya to be the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, and bearing the characteristics of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم? This is the issue where my qualifying the meaning of Khatam-an-Nubuwwah revolves around.

Therefore I propose we clarify this issue first. It may be that in reality we have no difference at least in theory when it comes to our understanding of Khatam-an-Nubuwwah

[Hani]

I don't have an issue in Isa's second coming because:

Muhammad saw was the last prophet sent to mankind, humanity will live with the teachings of this last prophet. Isa was sent before Muhammad, he delivered his prophesies and taught his laws beforehand so he  won't be doing that again and there  is no need. Isa isn't the last one sent to mankind since someone was sent after him. Isa is resuming what remains of his life when he was taken in special circumstance.

Isa's return will only be at the end of times, when the world has pretty much ended, cows sleep with the lions, the beast marks the faces, the anti Christ has appeared and the Mahdi has perished. Isa is not there to assume the standard role of a prophet but he seems to be taking the role of a political leader to settle a score and as a sign of Muhammad's truthfulness. At the time Islam's authentic teachings will be alive and well even before his Advent. Also we have no evidence that Isa will be receiving revelation through angels at the time or instructing on new laws since as we said, the world has already come to an end. As you know prophets prophesy but Isa won't, at the time there won't be a need to prophesy.

[ZulFiqar]

I don't have an issue in Isa's second coming because:

Muhammad saw was the last prophet sent to mankind, humanity will live with the teachings of this last prophet. Isa was sent before Muhammad, he delivered his prophesies and taught his laws beforehand so he  won't be doing that again and there  is no need. Isa isn't the last one sent to mankind since someone was sent after him. Isa is resuming what remains of his life when he was taken in special circumstance.

Isa's return will only be at the end of times, when the world has pretty much ended, cows sleep with the lions, the beast marks the faces, the anti Christ has appeared and the Mahdi has perished. Isa is not there to assume the standard role of a prophet but he seems to be taking the role of a political leader to settle a score and as a sign of Muhammad's truthfulness. At the time Islam's authentic teachings will be alive and well even before his Advent.

In principle I too believe in the second coming of the Messiah, but it is the modality where there can be a difference of interpretation. The only people who reject this doctrine are the Hadith-rejecters, naturalists, and certain modernist thinkers.

The issue here is reconciling the second coming of a Prophet with the doctrine of Finality of Prophethood. If you want to ask the classical Ulama how they reconciled these two doctrines that are apparently clashing with each other, you may find their explanation hard to swallow. Basically, the way these reconcile these two doctrines is by saying that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Last Prophet to bring a Shari'a, but Jesus who is a Prophet can come because he will not abrogate the Shari'at al Muhammadiya, but rather he will be a Prophet who is following the Way of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم.

This was their theory. For example, let me quote Imam Ibn Qutaybah رحمه الله:

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2014/11/imam-ibn-qutaybah-hadith-no-prophet.html

وأما قول عائشة رضى الله عنها : قولوا لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خاتم الأنبياء ولا تقولوا لا نبي بعده : فأنها تذهب إلى نزول عيسى عليه السلام وليس هذا من قولها ناقضاً لقول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: لا نبي بعدي: لأنه أراد لا نبي بعدي ينسخ ما جئت به كما كانت الأنبياء صلى الله عليهم وسلم تبعث بالنسخ وأرادت هي: لا تقولوا إن المسيح لا ينزل بعده

As for the saying of Aisha^RA: "Do say the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم is the Seal of the Prophets, but don't say there is no prophet after him." Then she was referring to the descent of Jesus peace be upon him. And this saying (of Aisha) does not contradict the saying of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم "There is no Prophet after me", because the meaning of "no prophet after me" is that no one will abrogate what I have come with like how the Prophets peace be upon them were sent with abrogation. And her intention was "Don't say that the Messiah won't descend after him"

Ta'wil Mukhtalif al-Hadith; p.360

So the saying of Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) and its explanation by Imam Ibn Qutayba proves that they considered Jesus to be a Prophet who will come after the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم. Yet they did not consider this as violating the doctrine of Khatam an Nubuwwah, because they understood that doctrine to mean that no Prophet can come after sayyidina Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم who will abrogate his Shari'a and be independent of him.

So this nuanced explanation of Khatam an Nubuwwah is necessary in order to accommodate the doctrine of the second coming of the Messiah.

Now the Sufis understood this as opening the door not only for the second coming of Jesus, but any saintly person from the Umma can potentially become a Prophet as long as he too is not abrogating the Shari'a. Now I hope you see the whole picture. The classical Ulama by qualifying the meaning of Khatm un Nubuwwah in order to make way for Jesus's second coming ended up opening the door for other Prophets to come along the same lines.

Also we have no evidence that Isa will be receiving revelation through angels at the time or instructing on new laws since as we said, the world has already come to an end. As you know prophets prophesy but Isa won't, at the time there won't be a need to prophesy.

You have made a critical mistake here because if you examine the Hadith which speaks of the second coming of sayyidina Eisa عليه السلام they affirm that the will get revelation and the knowledge of the unseen will continue to be disclosed to him:

ثُمَّ يَأْتِي عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ قَوْمٌ قَدْ عَصَمَهُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْهُ فَيَمْسَحُ عَنْ وُجُوهِهِمْ وَيُحَدِّثُهُمْ بِدَرَجَاتِهِمْ فِي الْجَنَّةِ فَبَيْنَمَا هُوَ كَذَلِكَ إِذْ أَوْحَى اللَّهُ إِلَى عِيسَى إِنِّي قَدْ أَخْرَجْتُ عِبَادًا لِي لاَ يَدَانِ لأَحَدٍ بِقِتَالِهِمْ فَحَرِّزْ عِبَادِي إِلَى الطُّورِ

Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur (Sahih Muslim: Kitab al-Fitan)

So if Jesus will not prophecy or receive divine Revelation, how will he wipe people's faces and inform them of their rank in Paradise, something that is from the Ghaib. And likewise, how will Allah reveal to him words containing news of the future regarding the imminent coming out of Gog and Magog, and instructing him and his followers to seek refuge on a mountain?

In fact, in the same Hadith, Jesus has been referred to as Nabiullah no less than four times during his second advent. So not only will he remain a Prophet during the second advent, he will continue to function as a Prophet, being disclosed with knowledge of the unseen, getting verbal revelations from Allah, and performing great miracles. The only difference is that he will not come to abrogate the Shari'a, and in fact will be commanded to follow the Qur'an and Sunna like the rest of the Umma.

[Hani]

Ibn Qutaybah is like me and you, he reads the texts and tries to find the true meaning and intention. Scholars clashed in some interpretations because the two matters discussed are popular yet seemingly clash according to a beginner who takes the first look. Those who are well read can easily figure out the intended meanings and reconcile any apparent conflicts.

As for people of evidence, we go where it points, so that narration you presented clearly shows he communicates with God, thus I have to drop that point about prophesy.

Based on this, I'd say the best explanation to the Prophet's (saw) narration would be:

"There is no prophet after me" meaning during the remaining period for humanity, UNTIL the end of times where `Isa (as) descends.

This is in agreement with the other narration where he (saw) says "There is no prophet or messenger between me and `Isa, he shall be my successor upon my nation after me."

أَلا إِنَّ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ لَيْسَ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَهُ نَبِيٌّ وَلا رَسُولٌ ، أَلا إِنَّهُ خَلِيفَتِي فِي أُمَّتِي بَعْدِي ، أَلا إِنَّهُ يَقْتُلُ الدَّجَّالَ ، وَيَكْسِرُ الصَّلِيبَ ، وَتَضَعُ الْحَرْبُ أَوْزَارَهَا ، أَلا فَمَنْ أَدْرَكَهُ مِنْكُمْ فَلْيَقْرَأْ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامَ

This actually makes things much simpler.

[ZulFiqar]

Based on this, I'd say the best explanation to the Prophet's (saw) narration would be:

"There is no prophet after me" meaning during the remaining period for humanity, UNTIL the end of times where `Isa (as) descends.

This is in agreement with the other narration where he (saw) says "There is no prophet or messenger between me and `Isa, he shall be my successor upon my nation after me."

أَلا إِنَّ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ لَيْسَ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَهُ نَبِيٌّ وَلا رَسُولٌ ، أَلا إِنَّهُ خَلِيفَتِي فِي أُمَّتِي بَعْدِي ، أَلا إِنَّهُ يَقْتُلُ الدَّجَّالَ ، وَيَكْسِرُ الصَّلِيبَ ، وَتَضَعُ الْحَرْبُ أَوْزَارَهَا ، أَلا فَمَنْ أَدْرَكَهُ مِنْكُمْ فَلْيَقْرَأْ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامَ

This actually makes things much simpler.

You have to be very careful in explaining Finality of Prophethood and the Hadith "No Prophet after me" and emphasize the fact that there can be no abrogation of the Shari'a and no new Millat. This is included as the essence of Finality of Prophethood. When you gave your explanation you did not include this.

Furthermore, it would be helpful for you to clarify the meaning of the Hadith "there is no Prophet between me and between him", does it mean there will be no prophet between these two, or disclosing the fact that there was no prophet between these two Prophets (a period of little less than 6 centuries), i.e., is it talking about the past or the future?:

عَنْ سَلْمَانَ، قَالَ فَتْرَةٌ بَيْنَ عِيسَى وَمُحَمَّدٍ صلى الله عليه وسلم سِتُّمِائَةِ سَنَةٍ‏.‏
Narrated Salman^RA: The interval between Jesus and Muhammad was six hundred years. (Bukhari)

But leaving all this aside, I essentially agree with you, Finality of Prophethood requires a more nuanced explanation in order to address the creed of Nuzul al-Masih, and your explanation is quite sensible.

[Hani]

The apparent meaning I observe is the future since he follows by saying "No prophet between us, He is my Khalifah after me." But I can't deny the other possibility. Other narrations must be factored to reach a conclusion.

[ZulFiqar]

Other narrations must be factored to reach a conclusion.

Let's look at some of these other narrations and see if you can tweak your position on Khatm-an-Nubuwwah a little more:

عَنْ أَبِي الدَّرْدَاءِ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " مَا طَلَعَتِ الشَّمْسُ عَلَى أَحَدٍ أَفْضَلَ مِنْ أَبِي بَكْرٍ ، إِلا أَنْ يَكُونَ نَبِيُّ

Abu Dardaa narrates that Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "The sun has not risen over anyone better than Abu Bakr except if a Prophet comes." (Fada'il as-Sahaba of Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal)

قَالَ رَجُلٌ عِنْدَ الْمُغِيرَةِ بْنِ شُعْبَةَ : صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ خَاتَمُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ , لا نَبِيَّ بَعْدَهُ , قَالَ الْمُغِيرَةُ : " حَسْبُكَ إِذَا قُلْتُ : خَاتَمُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ , فَإِنَّا كُنَّا نُحَدِّثُ أَنَّ عِيسَى خَارِجٌ , فَإِنْ هُوَ خَرَجَ فَقَدْ كَانَ قَبْلَهُ وَبَعْدَهُ

A man said in the presence of al-Mughira b. Shu'ba: "Blessings of Allah upon Muhammad, Seal of the Prophet, there is no Prophet after him." al-Mughira said: "It is sufficient to say 'Seal of the Prophets', for we were told that Jesus will come, so when he comes he (Jesus) is before him (Muhammad) and after him (Muhammad)."
(Musannaf ibn Abi Shayba)

 سَمِعْتُ أَبَا الطُّفَيْلِ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " لَا نُبُوَّةَ بَعْدِي إِلَّا الْمُبَشِّرَاتِ " قَالَ : قِيلَ : وَمَا الْمُبَشِّرَاتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ؟ قَالَ : " الرُّؤْيَا الْحَسَنَةُ " ، أَوْ قَالَ : " الرُّؤْيَا الصَّالِحَةُ "
Aba Tufail said: Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "There is no Nubuwwah after me except the Mubashshiraat." It was said: "And what is the Mubashiraat, O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "The good Vision" or he said: "The pious Vision"
(Musnad Ahmad)

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ , صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ , قَالَ لِلْعَبَّاسِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ : " فِيكُمُ النُّبُوَّةُ وَفِيكُمُ الْمَمْلَكَةُ
Abi Huraira narrates that Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said to al-Abbas b. Abdil Muttalib: "Within you there is Nubuwwah and within you there is Mamlakah (Kingship)"
(Amali Ibn Bushran)

عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّهُ كَانَ يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ قَدْ كَانَ يَكُونُ فِي الأُمَمِ قَبْلَكُمْ مُحَدَّثُونَ فَإِنْ يَكُنْ فِي أُمَّتِي مِنْهُمْ أَحَدٌ فَإِنَّ عُمَرَ بْنَ الْخَطَّابِ مِنْهُمْ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ ابْنُ وَهْبٍ تَفْسِيرُ مُحَدَّثُونَ مُلْهَمُونَ
The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم used to say: "There were in the nations before you Muhaddithun, so if there is anyone in my Ummah from among them then Umar b. al-Khattab is from among them." Ibn Wahb explained Muhaddithun as meaning Mulhamun (people who receive Ilham or divine inspiration)
(Sahih Muslim)

[Hani]

Salam,

So here are points on the narrations you quoted, I will comment from the viewpoint that Muhammad (saw) is the LAST prophet for mankind until the descent of `Isa (as) at the end of times as is stated in the abovementioned reports.

["The sun has not risen over anyone better than Abu Bakr except if a Prophet comes."]

This correct translation is: "except a prophet" the word "comes" was added by the (Qadiyani) translator to hint towards a continuation of prophet-hood. So there is no evidence here for it.

[al-Mughira said: "It is sufficient to say 'Seal of the Prophets', for we were told that Jesus will come, so when he comes he (Jesus) is before him (Muhammad) and after him (Muhammad)."]

No doubt this might have caused some early Muslims confusion, I've explained above how there is no issue with saying Muhammad (saw) is the last prophet and that `Isa (as) only comes at the end of the world. I wouldn't factor anything happening in those days as being a norm. Additionally, the Prophet (saw) said "No messengers or prophets between us, `Isa will be my Khalifah on my nation."

Furthermore the narration is weak due to Mujalid.

["There is no Nubuwwah after me except the Mubashshiraat." It was said: "And what is the Mubashiraat, O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "The good Vision" or he said: "The pious Vision"]

No issue here as well, regular believers have visions from God and dreams. Prophets often recieved them in addition to certainty and infallibility and some other qualities and traits. This matter is a small blessing that remained from the traces of prophet-hood. The narration implies that prophet-hood as it was known has ended with Muhammad (saw).

[said to al-Abbas b. Abdil Muttalib: "Within you there is Nubuwwah and within you there is Mamlakah (Kingship)"]

That is true, banu Hashim were blessed by having the Prophet (saw) from among them and by recieving the kingdom and leadership during `Ali's reign and that of the `Abbasies as well as those who rule in our days.

[say: "There were in the nations before you Muhaddithun, so if there is anyone in my Ummah from among them then Umar b. al-Khattab is from among them." Ibn Wahb explained Muhaddithun as meaning Mulhamun]

True, there are people who have been blessed with success from God, he helps them utter words to benefit those around them and inspires them sometimes to take actions that bring humanity goodness. I've met such people on several occasions, pious friends of Allah.

In conclusion, I observe that the evidence of those believing in the sessation of prophet-hood after Muhammad (saw) till `Isa's (as) descent at the end of times is much stronger than the belief that regular prophet-hood is continous throughout the ages. This cancels out the prophet-hood of all those who claimed it for the past 1,400 years.

[ZulFiqar]

Salam,

So here are points on the narrations you quoted, I will comment from the viewpoint that Muhammad (saw) is the LAST prophet for mankind until the descent of `Isa (as) at the end of times as is stated in the abovementioned reports.

["The sun has not risen over anyone better than Abu Bakr except if a Prophet comes."]

This correct translation is: "except a prophet" the word "comes" was added by the (Qadiyani) translator to hint towards a continuation of prophet-hood. So there is no evidence here for it.

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

So you say that the phrase
إِلا أَنْ يَكُونَ نَبِيُّ
means "except a Prophet", hence the translation of this Hadith according to you:
"The sun has not risen over anyone better than Abu Bakr except a Prophet"

But your translation doesn't fit with the Arabic grammar since the Hadith has the word يكون which is an imperfect verb or فعل مضارع. It means something like "becomes" or "will become". Many examples of it in the Quran al-Karim, especially the most famous one Kun FaYakoon "Be! So it becomes"

["There is no Nubuwwah after me except the Mubashshiraat." It was said: "And what is the Mubashiraat, O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "The good Vision" or he said: "The pious Vision"]

No issue here as well, regular believers have visions from God and dreams. Prophets often recieved them in addition to certainty and infallibility and some other qualities and traits. This matter is a small blessing that remained from the traces of prophet-hood. The narration implies that prophet-hood as it was known has ended with Muhammad (saw).

I agree exactly with your interpretation. The Mubashshiraat or good visions that come true are a remnant of Nubuwwah. There can come no one now who is a Prophet with the "Prophethood as it was known that ended with Muhammad(SWS)". But there is a partial Nubuwwah or a part of Nubuwwah which remains, and whoever is blessed with that part of Nubuwwah is manifesting a partial aspect of Nubuwwah. In the terminology of Sufis, such a person who is blessed with such good Visions with frequency is a Prophet in a metaphorical sense.

Mulla Ali Qari has talked about this concept of "metaphorical" Nubuwwah:

وكذلك كل امام اى من الائمة الاثنى عشر عند هؤلاء الرافضة يقوم مقامه في النبوة والحجة يعنى ان ارادوا بها الحقيقة والا فالمنزلة المجازية لا توجب الكفر ولا البدعة

This is in the context of refuting the Rafida. Ali al-Qari says that they believe each of their 12 Imams is a Prophet in reality, not in a metaphorical sense, while the latter belief (about a metaphorical Nubuwwah) would be neither Kufr nor Bid'a.

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2014/10/mulla-ali-qari-and-metaphorical.html

[said to al-Abbas b. Abdil Muttalib: "Within you there is Nubuwwah and within you there is Mamlakah (Kingship)"]

That is true, banu Hashim were blessed by having the Prophet (saw) from among them and by recieving the kingdom and leadership during `Ali's reign and that of the `Abbasies as well as those who rule in our days.

This interpretation is not consistent, because it is referring to al-Abbas not Hashim or by extension all the children of Hashim. Abbas and his progeny represent a specific branch of Hashemites. So it could be said that within Abbas himself there is some trace or remnant of Nubuwwah. This explains why during the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم the people came to him when they needed him to pray for rain for them, but after his death the people went to al-Abbas رضى الله عنه so there was some aspect or spark of Nubuwwah within the essence of Abbas.

[Hani]

[But your translation doesn't fit with the Arabic grammar since the Hadith has the word يكون which is an imperfect verb or فعل مضارع. It means something like "becomes" or "will become". ]

In this case, it would mean "Unless you speak of a prophet". Otherwise, it is as I told you and this is how we understand it and translate it.

أي إلا أن يكون ذلك الشخص نبيا

[This interpretation is not consistent, because it is referring to al-Abbas not Hashim or by extension all the children of Hashim.]

It's consistent since al-`Abbas was the elder of Hashim at the time. The theory you gave about seeking him for rain seems a bit far fetched. It would have made more sense to say "Feeka" instead of "Feekum". A similar Hadith is narrated from Ibn `Abbas where he also boasts: "From us is the Mansur, from us is the Saffah and from us is the Mahdi." All of whom are Hashemites but some from `Abbas' progeny while the Mahdi is from `Ali.

[ZulFiqar]

It's consistent since al-`Abbas was the elder of Hashim at the time. The theory you gave about seeking him for rain seems a bit far fetched. It would have made more sense to say "Feeka" instead of "Feekum". A similar Hadith is narrated from Ibn `Abbas where he also boasts: "From us is the Mansur, from us is the Saffah and from us is the Mahdi." All of whom are Hashemites but some from `Abbas' progeny while the Mahdi is from `Ali.

I understand the point of Feekum yet I think it is far-fetched to say that by addressing Abbas the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was referring to all the progeny of Hashim and meant to say that the Nubuwwah is referring to himself. There are other Ahadith where for example the Prophet said: "Verily Allah granted eminence to Kinana from amongst the descendants of Isma'il, and he granted eminence to the Quraish amongst Kinana, and he granted eminence to Banu Hashim amongst the Quraish, and he granted me eminence from the tribe of Banu Hashim."

But in addressing Abbas and saying "within you" meaning within your loins "there is Nubuwwah and Mamlaka" I grant you that he is referring to the progeny of Abbas, and prophesying about the Abbasid kingship. So likewise, from among the progeny of Abbas there will be such men who will be blessed with Nubuwwah - but of course the type of Nubuwwah which is Ghair Tashreei and in light of the Hadith of the al-Mubashshiraat a partial Nubuwwah or remnant of Nubuwwah.

[ZulFiqar]

A similar Hadith is narrated from Ibn `Abbas where he also boasts: "From us is the Mansur, from us is the Saffah and from us is the Mahdi." All of whom are Hashemites but some from `Abbas' progeny while the Mahdi is from `Ali.

I'm not sure about the authenticity of such a Hadith, considering the fact that Mansur was an oppressor. But if Mahdi is mentioned in the same line as Saffah and Mansur then it is obviously referring to al-Mahdi Billah (al-Mansur's son and the 3rd Abbasid king and another oppressor), not the Mahdi al-Muntadhir who will come from the progeny of Fatimat az Zahra رضى الله عنها

[ZulFiqar]

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

إِذَا هَلَكَ كِسْرَى فَلَا كِسْرَى بَعْدَهُ ، وَإِذَا هَلَكَ قَيْصَرُ فَلَا قَيْصَرَ بَعْدَهُ ، وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَتُنْفَقَنَّ كُنُوزُهُمَا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ
When Khosrau is ruined, there will be no Khosrau after him; and when Caesar is ruined, there will be no Caesar after him. By Him in Whose Hands my life is, you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause (Bukhari Sharif)

However when the Kisra (Khusrow) of the Prophet's time died he was indeed succeed by a succession of Iranian emperors until Yazdegard III whose reign came to an end in 651 CE.

Likewise, when the Caesar in the Prophet's time died, he too was succeeded by a long line of Byzantine emperors until Constantine XI when Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453 CE.

Hence, the Hadith is interpreted to mean that there will never be a Kisra as great and mighty as the Kisra who will be ruined by the Muslim conquest of Iran, and likewise there will never be a Caesar as great and mighty as the Caesar who will be ruined by the Muslim conquest of the Levant.

Hence despite the wording of "Fala Qaisara Ba'dahu" (There is no Caesar after him) similar to "La Nabiyy Ba'dee" (There is no Prophet after me) we come to see the termination of a specific level of glory of the genus and not the termination of the genus absolutely.

[Hani]

Sorry bro, not convincing.

[ZulFiqar]

Sorry bro, not convincing.

No problem if you aren't convinced. But at least you should clarify about this Hadith regarding Khusrow and Caesar.