help in answering the shia

[Mussana]

Asalamu alikum,
 Please post how to answer this crap being posted by one of the shias on another  forum.

I quote

"His Imamat started since departure of prophet (pbuh) ... this position is given by God as the prophethood is from God .... and has got nothing with people, he was Imam even when people didn't follow him and neglected the teachings of prophet (pbuh) ... amongst all prophets a handful of them had chance to govern to bring justice.


And why Imam Ali was rejecting Caliphate not Imamat is this:

After Jamal war Ibn Abbas saw Imam Ali (pbuh) repairing and sewing his old torn shoes .... Imam Ali (as) asked Ibn Abbas how much do you think these shoes are worth? I replied " these shoes are old and worthless" .... Imam Ali (as) replied swear to God these worthless shoes are more worthy to me than governing on you expect If I could :

و الله لهى أحب إلى من إمرتكم إلا أن اقيم حقا أو أدفع باطلا.
​
On the other hand he wanted to govern base on Quran and Sunna of Prophet (pbuh) while due to sunnah of previous caliphs many thing had got changed specially people which was in contradiction of sunnah of Prophet:

وإن بليتكم قد عادت كهيئتها يوم بعث اللّه نبيّكم والذي بعثه بالحق
and
ولتساطنّ سوط القدر حتّى يعود أسفلكم أعلاكم وأعلاكم أسفلكم
and
واللّه لو وجدته قد تزوّج به النساء وملك به الإماء لررددته

His justice was the main reason behind his martyrdom ...

[Mussana]

Brothers, i post my opinion but would like other brothers to help out with more academic answers.

One thing that can be said is if khilafat and imamat are two different things then why do the shia make such a hue and cry regarding hazrat ali (ra) not being appointed in place of hazrat abu abkr (ra) for he never lost IMAMAT and he himself used to reject Khilafat  when it came to him at a later stage.

One more thing that can be said is if Khilafat and Imamat are two different things why would the shia make an IDD on the day hazrat Ali (ra) became the khalifa for khilafat was something he detested

[Aba AbdAllah]

Does he believe that Khilafat and Imamat are two different things? Because their scholars explain it to mean one and same.

In his “Siyar A’laam un-Nubulaa” at page 259 Dhahabi narrated:

كتب إلي عبد المنعم بن يحيى الزهري، وطائفة قالوا: أنبأنا داود بن أحمد، أنبأنا محمد بن عمر القاضي، أنبأنا عبد الصمد بن علي، أنبأنا أبو الحسن الدارقطني، حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن إسماعيل الادمي، حدثنا محمد بن الحسين الحنيني، حدثنا مخلد بن أبي قريش الطحان، حدثنا عبد الجبار بن العباس الهمداني، أن جعفر بن محمد أتاهم وهم يريدون أن يرتحلوا من المدينة، فقال: ” إنكم إن شاء الله من صالحي أهل مصركم، فأبلغوهم عني: من زعم أني إمام معصوم مفترض الطاعة، فأنا منه برئ، ومن زعم أني أبرأ من أبي بكر وعمر، فأنا منه برئ “.

From Abdul Jabar ibn Al-Abbas al-Hamadani: ”Jafar as-Sadiq came to them when they were leaving Madinah and told them: You are inshallah from amongst the best of people from your country (or from your Egypt)  So report to them from me: He who claims that I’m an infallible Imam who must be obeyed, I disassociate myself from him and he who claims that I disassociate myself from Abu Bakr and Umar, I disassociate myself from him.”

On the other hand he wanted to govern base on Quran and Sunna of Prophet (pbuh) while due to sunnah of previous caliphs many thing had got changed specially people which was in contradiction of sunnah of Prophet:

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ , قَالَ : حَدَّثَنِي سُرَيْجُ بْنُ يُونُسَ مِنْ كِتَابِهِ ، قثنا مَرْوَانُ بْنُ مُعَاوِيَةَ الْفَزَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : أنا عَبْدُ الْمَلِكِ بْنُ سَلْعٍ الْهَمْدَانِيُّ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ خَيْرٍ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُهُ يَقُولُ : قَامَ عَلِيٌّ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ ، فَذَكَرَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَقَالَ : ” قُبِضَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَاسْتُخْلِفَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ ، فَعَمِلَ بِعَمَلِهِ وَسَارَ بِسِيرَتِهِ ، حَتَّى قَبَضَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ ، ثُمَّ اسْتُخْلِفَ عُمَرُ فَعَمِلَ بِعَمَلِهِمَا ، وَسَارَ بِسِيرَتِهِمَا ، حَتَّى قَبَضَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ “

حَدَّثَنَا حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيٌّ ، حَدَّثَنَا الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ الْمَحَامِلِيُّ ، حَدَّثَنَا مَحْمُودُ بْنُ خِدَاشٍ ، حَدَّثَنَا مَرْوَانُ بْنُ مُعَاوِيَةَ ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْمَلِكِ بْنُ سِلْعٍ الْهَمْدَانِيُّ ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ خَيْرٍ قَالَ : قَامَ عَلِيٌّ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ فَقَالَ : قُبِضَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَاسْتُخْلِفَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ ، وَعَمِلَ بِعَمَلِهِ وَسَارَ بِسِيرَتِهِ حَتَّى قَبَضَهُ اللَّهُ ، ثُمَّ اسْتُخْلِفَ عُمَرُ فَعَمِلَ بِعَمَلِهِمَا ، وَسَارَ بِسِيرَتِهِمَا حَتَّى قَبَضَهُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ عَلَى ذَلِكَ .

Abd khair said (once)Ali(ra) while he was sitting on the minbar, said: Prophet(Saw) passed away and abubakar(ra) was appointed as khalipha . He(ra) implemented his duty according to the way of prophet(Saw) and continued working according to the seerah of prophet(Saw) until he died, then umar(ra) became the khalipha, he too implemented his duty like the way prophet(saw) and abubakar(ra) did, and worked according to their seerah and died on the same way(Fadhail Sahaba by Imam Ahmed, Rijaal Thiqaat ; Majmua al zawaid, vol 5, page 179).

For detailed response, refer to Argument 5 and the reply in this article
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/5-sunni-answers-to-shiapens-article-on-fadak-and-inheritance-of-prophetsaw-chapter-five/

[Aba AbdAllah]

if khilafat and imamat are two different things then why do the shia make such a hue and cry regarding hazrat ali (ra) not being appointed in place of hazrat abu abkr (ra) for he never lost IMAMAT and he himself used to reject Khilafat  when it came to him at a later stage.

How did companions of Prophet Muhammad(Saw) understand the word ‘Imam’?

دخل أبو بكر على امرأة من أحمس يقال لها زينب ، فرآها لا تكلم ، فقال : ما لها لا تكلم ؟ قالوا : حجت مصمتة ، قال لها : تكلمي ، فإن هذا لا يحل ، هذا من عمل الجاهلية ، فتكلمت ، فقالت : من أنت ؟ قال : امرؤ من المهاجرين ، قالت : أي المهاجرين ؟ قال : من قريش ، قالت : من أي قريش أنت ؟ قال : إنك لسؤول ، أنا أبو بكر ، قالت : ما بقاؤنا على هذا الأمر الصالح الذي جاء الله به بعد الجاهلية ؟ قال : بقاؤكم عليه ما استقامت بكم أئمتكم ، قالت : وما الأئمة ؟ قال : أما كان لقومك رؤوس وأشراف ، يأمرونهم فيطيعونهم ؟ قالت : بلى ، قال : فهم أولئك على الناس .
Narrated Qais bin Abi Hazim: Abu Bakr went to a lady from the Ahmas tribe called Zainab bint Al-Muhajir and found that she refused to speak. He asked, “Why does she not speak.” The people said, “She has intended to perform Hajj without speaking.” He said to her, “Speak, for it is illegal not to speak, as it is an action of the pre-islamic period of ignorance. So she spoke and said, “Who are you?” He said, “A man from the Emigrants.” She asked, “Which Emigrants?” He replied, “From Quraish.” She asked, “From what branch of Quraish are you?” He said, “You ask too many questions; I am Abu Bakr.” She said, “How long shall we enjoy this good order (i.e. Islamic religion) which Allah has brought after the period of ignorance?” He said, “You will enjoy it as long as your Imams keep on abiding by its rules and regulations.” She asked, “What are the Imams?” He said, “Were there not heads and chiefs of your nation who used to order the people and they used to obey them?” She said, “Yes.” He said, “So they (i.e. the Imams) are those whom I meant.”(Sahi Bukhari Vol. 5, Book 58, Hadith 175)

Taken from:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/hadeeth-explanation-whoever-died-without-an-imam-he-dies-a-death-of-jahilyyah/