I always wanted to debate on behalf of the 12ers just to show them that we actually understand their arguments and find them unconvincing. So keep that in mind before having your blood boil at my answers
1. Why did Salman al-Farsi acted as the governor of Umar if he had usurped the caliphate of Ali? See Hayat ul Qulub, Volume 2,Page 780[
Two responses, 1) weak report, 2) Imam Ali عليه السلام told him to do that so that he can have inside information on Umar.
2. Were the intentions of Hadhrat Abu Bakr and Hadhrat Umar pure when they embraced Islam or do you accuse them of hypocrisy?
Abu Bakr was sincere and was overpowered by Umar and the Ummayids. Umar was always an enemy of Islam.
3. If you accuse them of hypocrisy, then please explain how can they be hypocrites in a society where the Muslims were severely oppressed? The Quraish were extreme in their cruel behavior with the Muslims. Avoiding conjectures and speculations, provide solid proofs of their hypocrisy during that early period.
Easy, Umar wasn't actually oppressed by the Quraysh. You would actually need to prove that he was. Since he wasn't involved in the boycott (and neither was Abu Bakr), nor did he ever migrate to Habasha and his migration to Medina was easy.
4. Can a Prophet, who is divinely appointed, render allegiance to a false prophet? If yes, then give any example from the seerah of the Prophets. If no, then how can an Imam, who is divinely appointed according to you, render allegiance to a false Imam?
They never gave allegiance to a false Imam in the sense that they gave up their religious power to them, they only allowed them to have worldly power to prevent fitnah, like the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم did in the Meccan period.
5. Did Ali distributed the inheritance of the Prophet (peace be upon him) amongst the inheritors especially Fadak?
No.
6. Is it true that even the Imams didn't mention Imamate to their children? Because we find in the Shia books that some of the children of the Imams were also unaware of the Imamate of their fathers.
Most of it is not true, and what is true is because their children were Nawasib who wanted the Imamah for themselves.
7. Does the Progeny include the 12 Imams only? If not, then how do you exclude the others from the Hadith Thaqalayn?
We (they) do so with Hadeeth al-Kisaa and other reports that specify who is mentioned in this one.
8. How is it possible that the Companions didn't help Ali when Abu Bakr was being chosen as Caliph, but they helped Ali when he fought against Muawiyah?
Which Companions were these? If you mean Ammar, Salman, Abu Dharr etc (notice what I did here, to give the impressions that 12ers don't make takfeer of pretty much everyone else), then they couldn't do so during the reign of Abu Bakr and Umar because Imam Ali wasn't the caliph then. So just like he didn't fight, they didn't fight.
9. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to Ali that you are same as to me as Harun was to Musa. But we know that Harun wasn't the successor of Musa, and he died before him as well. So why do you take this hadith as an evidence for the imamate of Ali?
That's not what the hadeeth means for 12ers or Sunnis. It means that the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم left Ali عليه السلام behind just like Musa عليه السلام left Haroon عليه السلام behind.
10. Did the Prophet (peace be upon him) gave anyother precious worldly object aside from Fadak to his daughter?
I don't know.
11. If Fadak had been gifted to Fatima, why did Ali sent Fatima to the Prophet (peace be upon him) so he could give them a servant?
Nasibi fabrication.
12. If the Imamate of Ali was announced at Ghadir, why did the Imams call it (i.e. Imamate) a secret?
It was announced during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time, but through time it was hidden by the Caliphs and became a secret.
13. There were many sects which preached their beliefs openly, and many received punishments from the Caliphs as well. Why is it that the Shias always preached their religion secretly?
To prevent bloodshed and fitnah.
14. Isn't it true that Ismail Safavi forcefully converted Iranians to Shi'ism?
No.
15. Majlisi says that I don't see any difference between Prophethood and Imamate. Is it really true that there is no difference between Imamate and Prophethood?
No (lets be real, what kind of logic is this?).
16. Why is it that Shias have very minor amount of narrations the isnaad of which reach through reliable persons to the Prophet (peace be upon him) as compared to the Sunni narrations?
Because the 12er narrations go through the Imams, therefore, there's no need to to go back to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. By the time we reach any of the Imams, then the rest of the Isnaad is obvious, they narrate from their fathers back to the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم.
17. If there is a need of an Imam in everytime who should guide the people, who was the Imam at the time when the Prophet (s) was born?
Shi'as don't have an answer to this, and I haven't been able to think of one, really the only good point so far.
18. Do you deny that the Quraish had killed many Muslims and severely punished others before the migration of Muslims to Abyssinia and later on to Madinah?
Of course not.
19. If those Muslims had faced such harsh times with faith in their heart, leave their homes and families for the sake of Allah and face battles defending the Prophet (s), how could they accept an unrightful person as their first caliph?
A lot of those people actually died, while the ones that remained didn't pledge allegiance, i.e. Ammar and Bilal رضي الله عنهما.
20. Was there any need for the Imam to curse Zurarah to protect him?
Yes, he was known a head of the Shi'as and the government would go after him unless the Imams did this. (Yeah I know, how anyone can believe this is beyond me)
21. It is mentioned in your books that Ali presented his Quran to Abu Bakr and Umar, who rejected it. And then Ali said that you will never see this Quran again. For the sake of guidance of the people, why didn't he take it out again in his caliphate and publish it in large numbers?
He didn't need to because the rest of the Imams upheld its teaching. Besides, the Imam will bring it at the end of time (eh... I feel like I'm running out of energy coming up with this stuff).
22. Is it true that the Chief Justice of Ali was a person who was not eligible for the post?
I haven't really looked at how they explain this away, so I'll skip it.
23. How did the Companions and their followers managed to defeat the two great super powers of the time without the participation of Ali?
Actually, they wouldn't have been able to without his help. He helped for the sake of Islam.
24. If Hadhrat Abu Bakr and Hadhrat Umar were hypocrites, why did the Prophet (s) married their daughters and not the daughters or sisters of Miqdad, Ammar and Abu Dharr?
Politics.
25. If Abu Talib was a born Muslim, why did he showed shirk when the Prophet (peace be upon him) announced the message of Islam?
Nasibi fabrications.
26. Why didn't Ali and Hasan fought against Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Muwaiyah, but Hussain fought against Ibn Ziyad? Of all your twelve Imams, only Imam Hussain fought for the revival of Islam? Your books have mentioned that Ali said that if I had 40 men with me, I would have fought against Abu Bakr. But it is written in your books that Imam Hassan had 40,000 men with him , still he rendered allegiance to Muawiyah. And than , Imam Hussain fought with Ibn Ziyad even though he had around 70 men with him. If Hussain was fighting for reviving Islam, why not Ali and Hasan also fought to save Islam from the people whom you accuse to be the oppressors and whom you accuse of totally changing the religion of the Prophet (peace be upon him) e.g the first three caliphs especially Umar?
LOL, let me guess, the person who wrote this is from the sub-continent? Anyway, this is from the best arguments against 12ers. Their main response to this is an appeal to the Treaty of Hudabiyah. But I mean, come on...
I think I'm done answering these one by one, let me see what else there is
27. You claim that your imams are superior to the Prophets except Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). But even you accept that Abraham was both Imam and a Prophet. So how your 12 imams are superior to Abraham while they don't have prophethood.
Who said they were?
28. There were four daughters of the Prophet (s). Zainab, Ruqayya, Umme Kulthoom, and Fatima. Were they his real daughters or not? Why did the Prophet (s) married his daughters to Uthman and not Miqdad, Ammar or Abu Dhar?
He had four, people who say he had one are ghalis. The second part of the question was already responded to... politics. And lets not forget, this argument is incredibly weak (from the Sunni side) since the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم married Abu Sufyan's sister while he was still a pagan, the daughter of a pagan and the daughter of a Jew. All three were actively at war with the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, yet we say these marriages were done for political reasons.
29. Wasn't Ali the helper of Uthman?
How does stopping a person from being assassinated result in you recognizing their authority over you? There are a lot of leaders and people who have authority over me, who, while I disagree with them, I would try to stop them from being killed if I had the chance; doesn't mean I recognize their authority, it just means I'm doing the right thing from my perspective.
30. Is it false that Umar was killed while praying and Uthman was killed while reciting Quran?
Possible Nasibi fabrications, and possibly they were showing off. We know that ibn Salul used to pray also.
34. Is it true that Hadhrat Ali married his daughters to Hadhrat Umar and Muawiya ibn Marwan ibn Hakam but he married none of his daughters to Miqdad, Ammar, Abu Dhar or Salman Farsi? And he didn’t marry their daughters as well. But we know that he married the daughter of Hadhrat Abul Aas i.e. Umamah on the will of Hadhrat Fatima. We also know that Hadhrat Abul Aas is considered a hypocrite in your sect. Why do we always find the ahlul bayt nearer in relationships to the companions who are considered hypocrite by you but not to those companions who are considered truthful and honest according to you?
The ones against Ahl al Bayt are forced marriages, the ones by Ahl al Bayt are political marriages
37. Why Hasan said "Muawiyah is better for me than the people who claim to be our shias"
Honestly, its so easy to answer a lot of these questions, you can tell they were just written so the author can show his followers, "Hey look, I have a 100 questions Shi'as cant answer!" When its really been two or three so far (although, they have been devastating.) He said they are better than the people that "claim" to be our Shi'as. He obviously isn't talking about "true" Shias.
38. Is it better to pray the Salaat on their time or to combine them?
Fiqh questions are usually a waste of time, but this IS *edit* something that a lot 12ers really need to think about.
39. What were the places in Makkah in which peace was granted to the people who took refuge in them?
Even as a Sunni I recognize that the reason the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم specified Abu Sufyan wasn't because Abu Sufyan was someone special.
40. Who was the Muslim caliph who defeated two super powers of his times, Rome and Persia?
Might doesn't make right, 12ers use this to show that Umar was violent.
41. Why do you delay the iftaar for ten minutes and stop the suhur before ten minutes?
Fiqh questions are a waste of time, but its because they are ignorant of the Arabic language.
43. Who were the Muslims who protected Islam from the Crusades of the Christians? Sunnis or Shias?
I was recently shocked to find out how much the Shi'as have actually done during those days to protect the Muslim world. They may have been involved in a lot of treachery, but so were are a lot of other political movements. Heck, think about who is selling us out today, and a lot of them are certainly not 12ers.
45. You say that Companions hated eachother, we say they were compassionate amongst themselves, let us refer to Quran
Shi'as respond to this by saying they don't hate all Companions, so this isn't a refutation of them. You have to dig in deeper and show their hatered for the overwhelming majority of them to show this point. Since they can easily say that, this question has to be rephrased.
LOL, ok, I'm done for now.
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June 25, 2016, 04:37:35 AM
