Salam,
Sunnis claim that many classical Shia scholars believed in tahrif. Sunnis often ask Shias: "if someone rejects an ayah or surah of the Quran, is this kufr?" - the answer is almost always "yes", then Sunnis ask "If it is kufr to reject an ayah or surah, then some classical Shia scholars must be guilty of kufr".
Can the same not be asked about Ibn Masud? I was listening to a Mohammed Hijab video and the brother claims that Ibn Masud rejected the last two Surahs of the Quran, but later changed his opinion. So my question is this: Despite changing his opinion, was Ibn Masud guilty of apostasy at that moment in time when he rejected the last two surahs of the Quran?
For someone to be mistaken during the period of Quran compilation is not the same as someone rejecting parts of the Quran or believing its been altered AFTER the period of compilation.
Those who erred in the early days of Quranic compilation are excused.
Salam,
Sunnis claim that many classical Shia scholars believed in tahrif. Sunnis often ask Shias: "if someone rejects an ayah or surah of the Quran, is this kufr?" - the answer is almost always "yes", then Sunnis ask "If it is kufr to reject an ayah or surah, then some classical Shia scholars must be guilty of kufr".
Can the same not be asked about Ibn Masud? I was listening to a Mohammed Hijab video and the brother claims that Ibn Masud rejected the last two Surahs of the Quran, but later changed his opinion. So my question is this: Despite changing his opinion, was Ibn Masud guilty of apostasy at that moment in time when he rejected the last two surahs of the Quran?
The two cases cannot be compared.
I can't tell anymore.
I can't tell anymore.
Nothing new, you usually "can't tell" anything.
Comparing apples and rocket fuel, there's isn't even a common denominator in your claim.
I can't tell anymore.
Nothing new, you usually "can't tell" anything.
Comparing apples and rocket fuel, there's isn't even a common denominator in your claim.
Actually, I figured it out.
You guys are brain dead BECAUSE you seek to deceive people as Quran says "God doesn't guide who misleads".
Salam,
Sunnis claim that many classical Shia scholars believed in tahrif. Sunnis often ask Shias: "if someone rejects an ayah or surah of the Quran, is this kufr?" - the answer is almost always "yes", then Sunnis ask "If it is kufr to reject an ayah or surah, then some classical Shia scholars must be guilty of kufr".
Can the same not be asked about Ibn Masud? I was listening to a Mohammed Hijab video and the brother claims that Ibn Masud rejected the last two Surahs of the Quran, but later changed his opinion. So my question is this: Despite changing his opinion, was Ibn Masud guilty of apostasy at that moment in time when he rejected the last two surahs of the Quran?
Wa alaykum alsalam,
There is no indication that Ibn Mas'ud believed that Al Falaq and Al Nisa' were the words of man to begin with. All we have is him saying that it doesn't belong in the Qur'an. As we all know, not all the speech of Allah is included in the Qur'an.
This is unlike the Shia belief in Tahreef that includes alterations of text that causes meanings to be changed.
The two cases cannot be compared.
That is a weird hypothetical question. A Muslim can be unaware that Al Baqara is a part of the Qur'an AND from Allah if they were from a very secular community.
However, I cannot imagine a case of someone knowing of Al Baqara, that it is from Allah, and then reject it as a part of the Qur'an, since there is nothing that could lead to this opinion.
For someone to be mistaken during the period of Quran compilation is not the same as someone rejecting parts of the Quran or believing its been altered AFTER the period of compilation.
Those who erred in the early days of Quranic compilation are excused.
Its not possible to make such mistakes after the period of Quran compilation when the mushaf was a uniform book known throughout the entire muslim world.
Those shia who believe in tareef are not just making an excusable error.
"For someone to be mistaken during the period of Quran compilation"
Who compiled the Qur'an and are/were they free from making mistakes and errors. If yes then why?
"Its not possible to make such mistakes after the period of Quran compilation"
WHY?
Did you just dig this out randomly? Like did you wake up in the middle of the night & think I need to get something on this guy?😂😂😂
Did you just dig this out randomly? Like did you wake up in the middle of the night & think I need to get something on this guy?😂😂😂
You change goalposts every post you make, constantly contradicting yourself.
I’d ban you for being a waste of space.
You’re an embarassment even to your own 12er sect.
You change goalposts every post you make, constantly contradicting yourself. You follow & reject evidences based on your own whims rather than any methodical approach or consistency. You don’t even accept those sources graded as authentic by 12er scholars.
You ask for proof from Quran only & then switch when it suits you saying you don’t have to prove from Quran only.
No one takes your mumblings serious.
I’d ban you for being a waste of space.
You’re an embarassment even to your own 12er sect.
My point was not specifically in regards to Ibn Masud.
It was a general point.
Not rocket science is it?
I will have some fun frustrating you. LOL
https://www.seratonline.com/
Lol is this where all the fake news and jokes are😂😂😂😂
All you've done is shown your absurd attitude and bad behaviour. So I thought I'd give you rude boys something to engage in. 😀
Blah blah blah........you couldn’t answer of finding a clear verse of Imamate in Quran so obviously you have to use these nonsense sites to help you😂😂😂👍👍
Are you a QUR'ANIST? Do you believe everything must be in the Qur'an? Pick a principle and lay down your standards and stick to them, then talk and ask. 😊
NO I ain’t a quranist and you know it, now what? You have no answers have you? Your stuck in a rut over divine Imamate aren’t you? NO CLEAR verse so that would mean anyone asking for it MUST be a quranist😂😂😂😂😂😂😂👍👍👍👍
You are useless your divine Imamate theory is useless too, many a times you COULDNT provide any CLEAR evidence on Imamate as asked
The BASE of our faith, the start of faith has ROOTS in Quran for example
Fasting:
Fast or fasting in mentioned in 26 Ayats(verses) as ..........then we move to sunnah of the details👍
Salah:
The Quran commands the Muslims to offer Salah (Namaz) 700 times........the details of which we obtain from sunnah 👍
Zakah: 😜your favourite one😂
The Quran states 32 times about giving zakah.........the details are from within the sunnah👍
Hajj:
Hajj appears 31 times in the Quran......the details which we obtain from the sunnah👍
The above formula is a Muslim standard the order comes CLEAR from the Quran, as Allah swt says it CLEAR, the word of Allah swt is clear, He Allah swt CLEARLY orders wether it’s once or many times, not SECRETLY but CLEARLY........to follow them orders properly we turn to......SUNNAH.
End of, finished thank you very much👍
Now where is your standard icepop?
I have been asking for a CLEAR verse and for months you have been using same verses repeatedly that are not CLEAR at all on divine Imamate and then you ADD your theory onto it by straight jumping to some UNAUTHENTIC hadiths or twist words or better still you use ghadeer Khum incident (which has zero to do with divine leadership), so as can be seen our standard is the Quran and the details we follow by following the sunna
where as YOU lol you have nothing clear in Quran so you start from unauthentic sayings and false presumptions and then try your hardest (as you are doing 😜) to make it seem like it’s from the Quran 😜😂😂😂
At best you are a hypocrite, your main pillar Imamate you cannot find but you are adamant on us producing a verse on punishment of zakah just so you can put Ameer ul maumineen in a bad light and prop up the kaafir nawairah.......pure HYPOCRISY!!
Please icepop man have some standards will you, until you do you have nothing, remember Quran comes first the sunnah comes after......remember that formula and you will be fine and people may take you seriously and listen and many would turn to shiism, until then you are at best a joke and a laughing stock within Islam.....or in your case within TS.net 😂😂😂😂👍
You've really made maximum use of the smiley faces as there is going to be no tomorrow 😀 I'll give a reply to your lengthy post. Working at the moment.
Yea cos you are a joke and I’ve realised smiley faces get under your skin😜👍
Everthing seems a joke to you or you're just extremely childish. Nothing gets under my skin. Muslim 720 insulted my mother, that didn't get under my skin. Your behaviour and manners lie with you and mine with me.
Or your just upset cos you have nothing on divine Imamate and saqifa has ripped up any inkling of divine Imamate theory😉
There's plenty on Divine Imamate but you don't want to accept it. There's nothing one can do if you DON'T WANT TO....
Saqifa? A coincidental incident and the immature and hasty decision that a handful of people made can't rip up anything. It's the violence and the intimidating and threatening behaviour that was used to enforce that decision is what ripped up the Ummah and gave the Muslims a bad name and a dark period in history. 😊
What? Something so important and you haven’t an answer??????😁
All these months and all the posts you made and all the explanations of the ayahs you made your conclusion is.....”you don’t want to”
😀😀😀😃😀😀😀😀😀😀
A great big FAIL👍👍
False divine Imamate is just a figment of your imagination, for you cannot produce any clear evidence from the Quran.
While saqifa and the way of consultation is clear in Quran.
Saqifa really has got you hasn’t it😜 bet you have endless nightmares on saqifa on how that made it through to the Muslims and yet divine Imamate authority is in a cloud of smoke .......Awwwwwwwww
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Saqifa surpasses divine Imamate in Islam just because consultation is mentioned, divine Imamate is nowhere to be seen as you have problems yourself answering.
Something so important is mentioned in the Qur'an in various ways and forms, either as WALI or as ULUL AMRE and Allah has clearly mentioned who they were by removing rijs and purifying them and Muhammad s.a.w did his bit by clearly identifying them. If someone wants to continue playing deaf, dumb and blind then that's down to them.
Imamah and Caliphate both are in the Qur'an and is created by Allah just as Messenger hood and Prophecy. If you don't want to accept that and follow intentions of others and man made and selected individuals be it coincidental, by force or other then that's down to you. I can only give you from the Qur'an what is needed and asked for accordingly. I can't give you from the Qur'an anything that you wish and desire in your way and words.😊
So you have nothing from the Quran but just your theory on verses you posted.
You should be called wasteman and not iceman, you are just a waste of time, all hot air and no substance.
I have plenty from the Qur'an but nothing that suits you and your desire. But here it is again just for you and for your eyes and ears only.
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)
Was Abraham, promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title of a similar level and nature to what he already was?
This is more than enough on Imamah to knock you out and to put you to rest. But the ignorant and blind will keep coming rather than answering and addressing.
You can never move on from here. 😀
Lol already answered on another post.........are you running out of things to say that you are regurgitating the same post everywhere?
😂😂😂
You have nothing it’s been months mate😉
Yes it has been months and stIll nothing from you. You still want to avoid it?😂😂😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Didn’t I ask the question first? And you haven’t delivered as yet 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
So the conclusion is after months of asking iceman cannot give me a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate
As can be seen in his posts👍
I've given it to you time and time again. And just for your eyes only here it is again;
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)
Not only was Abraham made an Imam after being a Messenger and Prophet but he also asked Allah about Imams from his off springs. So I wonder who they were. 😊 Keep rolling!
Well the offspring weren’t Ali ra and His progeny for they never got the test of messengerhood or prophethood which you keep avoiding to answer, a great prophet a leader like Ibrahim as has to go through tests but not the imams oh no they don’t need to and you have no proof or verse to say they don’t either
If the ahle bayt of the Holy Prophet SAW were meant in the verse about Ibrahim AS progeny, then why not just have the verse say them the Holy Prophet’s SAW offspring rather than refer to a previous prophet’s offspring who were a totally different era & different book with different sharia?
Come on, the Quran would mention the 12 Imams by name or at least say the Imams are from the offspring of Fatima & Ali RA.
Just a small note for the moment for you to try and understand, why didn't Allah just mention in the Bible, which is also the book of Allah, that Jesus won’t be murdered and neither will he be crucified but in fact...... rather than just wait for hundreds of years and then reveal that he wasn't murdered and neither was he crucified but in fact .....? Why leave it rather than mention it there and then? Please don't tell me that one book (Bible) wasn't protected and the other (Qur'an) was.
If Allah had mentioned it right there and then in the book (Qur'an) then if you disbelieved, you wouldn't disbelieve in that bit, would you. In fact you would reject the whole book, wouldn't you. And what's the actual test in that? Allah has mentioned certain things but left the Prophet s.a.w to clarify them, which he clearly and most certainly did.
Another example would be that the Qur'an had been revealed and surely the book of Allah should be enough and sufficient for us, but didn't the Prophet s.a.w still ask in fact demand for a pen and paper, but why and what for? Well one can question themselves that what ever the Prophet s.a.w was going to write down for us and the Ummah of that time, if it was really that important then it should have been in the Qur'an. Ever thought of this. Whoever are we to decide what is important and what isn't.
Wasteman comes up with a verse of a prophet PROMOTED to a divine imam which is a higher status for a Shiite belief yet he can’t provide anything for the ahle baith ra to bypass prophethood and jump straight on to the highest honour bigger than prophethood.
Come on wasteman you couldn’t prove Imamate over saqifa you can’t get a clear verse on Imamate theory and now you dug a deeper hole you cannot explain how imams are divine imams that don’t need to go through prophethood.
😂😂😂😂😂
That’s ameen s shiism in a nutshell it just gets worse😉👍
I didn't say anything 😊 I asked you a question and you can't even give a simple answer. Was Abraham promoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade? That's all I asked and you're still trying to avoid it by dancing around it. As far as by passing Messenger hood and Prophecy is concerned and going straight to Imamah, can you prove to me that it's necessary for you to be a Messenger and Prophet first before being an Imam. Answer up or own up! 😊