Imam after Isa (AS) not known by shia

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Ask any shia who the Imam/hujjat after Isa(AS) is & there is no unanimous answer. Some say its Isa(AS) as he never died, some say Simon, others Ilyas(AS).
How is there uncertainty in this matter? How is this important information unknown?
If there is always an Infallible Imam then it should be known with certainty who the person was after Isa(AS).

[Link]

A more important question arises:

What is the number of successors to Moses per Quran?

If God says in Quran he gave them clear proofs regarding the affair or authority, would it imply that God gave Bani-Israel the exact number?

Some interesting things in the bible with Twelve. The "sculptures" (alluded to in Quran) made by Solomon were Twelve Lions.

Elijah (Elyas) when he did the miracle he did, did it with "Twelve" stones.

There is symbolism of Twelve with Aeron being appointed as Priest, with the clothes he was suppose to wear, and the priest office was meant for him and his offspring.

There seems to be a lot of attempt to confuse the significance of Twelve, but if we think about the importance of succession, and knowing exactly who were the true leaders, Prophets, and Messengers after Moses.....

The fake Prophets against Elyas for example, the Twelve would be symbolic, that the authority of Moses was vested in Twelve, and he is one of the Twelve.

The Twelve Lions in Solomon's temple as well as the Twelve basins (the basins are alluded to in Quran as well), represented something important.

The sculptures and basins which none were seen the like of in any kingdom no doubt also had symbolic meaning.

In almost all religions, the number Twelve is important, but why it's important is different. As we would expect if it was once important, but then religions corrupted.

And if they corrupted it would be due to mixing false authorities and mixing leadership of non-chosen with the Chosen.

We see Quran emphasizes twelve with respect to Imams/Caliphs (in Suratal Baqara), with respect to the people who guide by the truth (in Suratal Araaf), with the Captains who sail by the Name of God (in Suratal Maeeda), and with negation of the authority of corrupt clergy (the verse of Twelve Months comes in this context and then says this the upright religion).

We have to understand, that Shaytan is an open enemy to humanity, and will always try to cause confusion.

For error checking and easy proof, which would be very clean of God, is to be put ONE wise consistent number of succession to the founders of a nation, the founding Messengers.

This is a more pressing question, rather, then exactly who became the hidden Imam.  When you get the number right, and you can count Jesus as the Twelfth and Elyas was told in his revelation to be the 2nd witness after John (Yahya), then it becomes clear.

And the two places Elyas is mentioned in Quran and the order where he is mentioned would make sense and show a miracle of the Quran.

With much peace, and blessings upon you.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

So who is the AGREED upon Imam after Isa(AS) according to the shia?

[Rationalist]

They don't believe he will ever rule. To them his purpose is to pray behind the Mahdi, and in their understanding this will show the 12th Imam superiority. He is more of a helper than a leader in their sect.

[Rationalist]

A more important question arises:

What is the number of successors to Moses per Quran?

Those are not  the 12 Calipahs. They were 12 leaders chosen to lead each tribe. The strange part is Prophet Haron (as) was not among the 12.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

They don't believe he will ever rule. To them his purpose is to pray behind the Mahdi, and in their understanding this will show the 12th Imam superiority. He is more of a helper than a leader in their sect.

There is a period of hundreds of years before the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) where there is no agreed upon Imam in shia belief.
A possible candidate here or there is not satisfactory at all.
If Islam is the belief of an infallible Imam in every age & we must know our Imam, why does no shia know on an agreed upon Imam in such a long and important period leading upto the prophet muhammad (SAW)?

[MuslimAnswers]

^
In any case, this idea is contradicted by the Qur'an in a  number of places, such as seen in (the translation of) Verse 32:3:

Or do they say, "He invented it"? Rather, it is the truth from your Lord, [O Muhammad], that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you [so] perhaps they will be guided.

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If guidance was available, there would be no need to present the Prophet's (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) coming to his people in this manner. Other Verses are even clearer in this matter.

[Link]

^
In any case, this idea is contradicted by the Qur'an in a  number of places, such as seen in (the translation of) Verse 32:3:

Or do they say, "He invented it"? Rather, it is the truth from your Lord, [O Muhammad], that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you [so] perhaps they will be guided.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If guidance was available, there would be no need to present the Prophet's (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) coming to his people in this manner. Other Verses are even clearer in this matter.

I can't read your mind so you going have to explain how there is a contradiction.

[MuslimAnswers]

^

The Verse is clear enough in that guidance of the people is tied to the coming of the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). If there had been an Imam of the Shi'ite archetype, the responsibility of the people at large would have been to find and follow that pre-Muhammadan Imam and only through him they would have known who Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was and what his importance was in the first place.

The sending of the Qur'an and the like would have been interesting in that situation, but it would have been nowhere as important as this supposed "Imam" guiding the people and perhaps giving a Nass to the people in this respect, and we definitely would not have found Verse 32:3 and other similar Verses in the Qur'an where the lack of guides/warners is highlighted as it relates to the period before the coming of the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

[Link]

^

The Verse is clear enough in that guidance of the people is tied to the coming of the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). If there had been an Imam of the Shi'ite archetype, the responsibility of the people at large would have been to find and follow that pre-Muhammadan Imam and only through him they would have known who Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was and what his importance was in the first place.

The sending of the Qur'an and the like would have been interesting in that situation, but it would have been nowhere as important as this supposed "Imam" guiding the people and perhaps giving a Nass to the people in this respect, and we definitely would not have found Verse 32:3 and other similar Verses in the Qur'an where the lack of guides/warners is highlighted as it relates to the period before the coming of the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

Inward guidance is different then of warning type guidance in the outward. The former can be done by a leader/guide that is hidden while the latter extends to people searching or not searching for guidance.

The former is for the people already on the truth.

The religion of Abraham was always that of guidance of God, and hence, the upright people following that path (hanifs) were being guided by God.

The religion of Abraham had a Guide from God and Authority from God as central to its teachings, and hence, those upon his path had that part of their central belief.

They were not Deists or chose your own morals type spirituality...they genuinely found God and searched the path and were walking the path.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Stick to the topic please.
From your silence on the issue I take it you agree that there is no agreed upon belief amongst the shia as to who the Imam is after Isa(AS).
For me thats enough to reject the shia concept of Imamate (there's plenty other reasons too of course).

[Link]

Stick to the topic please.
From your silence on the issue I take it you agree that there is no agreed upon belief amongst the shia as to who the Imam is after Isa(AS).
For me thats enough to reject the shia concept of Imamate (there's plenty other reasons too of course).

You just looking for excuses to disbelief after much clear proofs of Imammate have come to you.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Stick to the topic please.
From your silence on the issue I take it you agree that there is no agreed upon belief amongst the shia as to who the Imam is after Isa(AS).
For me thats enough to reject the shia concept of Imamate (there's plenty other reasons too of course).

You just looking for excuses to disbelief after much clear proofs of Imammate have come to you.

Why not just answer the question?
Not a single post addressing the title of the thread.
Seems you have no answer.
Ask yourself why you cannot answer this & then reflect on it

[Link]

Stick to the topic please.
From your silence on the issue I take it you agree that there is no agreed upon belief amongst the shia as to who the Imam is after Isa(AS).
For me thats enough to reject the shia concept of Imamate (there's plenty other reasons too of course).

You just looking for excuses to disbelief after much clear proofs of Imammate have come to you.

Why not just answer the question?
Not a single post addressing the title of the thread.
Seems you have no answer.
Ask yourself why you cannot answer this & then reflect on it

The Quran warns about people who got in a certain mindset of asking questions.

Questions are good when you are sincerely taking your time to ask the right questions and learn.

When you make your own standards and make your own bubble with them, and are trying to reject everything you should acknowledge due to clear proofs by unclear reasoning on your part....then it is as God says:

قَدْ سَأَلَهَا قَوْمٌ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ ثُمَّ أَصْبَحُوا بِهَا كَافِرِينَ {102}
[Shakir 5:102] A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Oh dear

This is your poorest attempt thus far.

When refuted & cannot answer a simple question you switch to the do not question mode.

[Link]

Oh dear

This is your poorest attempt thus far.

When refuted & cannot answer a simple question you switch to the do not question mode.

Your question is rhetorical. Sunnis cannot agree if the 12 Imams are spiritual Successors of the Prophet or not.

And if you guys cannot even agree about the concept of Spiritual Poles and whether the 12 Imams are that or not, and whether Imam Mahdi is alive or not.....

That means by your same argument, you are all false.

And you guys per "Sunnism" cannot even agree if God has hands or does not. Or if he has limbs or a body or does not.

Or if he is literally on the Arsh or not. Or if it's Shirk to talk or ask intercession from dead people or not. You guys can't agree on anything really. Not even what consists of Salah!

So apply arguments to yourself or you embarrass yourself as a glass cannon!

[zaid_ibn_ali]

In shi'ism imamate is the fundemental belief.
Non of what you mentioned regarding sunni's are fundemental beliefs.

There is no agreed upon imam after Isa(AS) in shia belief. Yet imamate is the the core of shia belief.

Dodge the question as much as you want but your stubborness to swerve the question shows you have been refuted all too easily.

[Link]

lol Tawheed is not a fundamental belief and it's ok to differ on that! ok!

So what, what is your point? What is necessary is to believe in Ahlulbayt Imams and know them, since they pertain to us and all of humanity.

You guys are clutching at straws!

You guys disagree if Khidr is a Prophet or not. Oh no, might as well through away belief in Prophets now that you guys disagree about whether Khidr is a Prophet or not!

You are too funny!

[zaid_ibn_ali]

we believe in the prophet muhammad (SAW) being the seal & final prophet.

You believe in imamate being continuous from beginning before him to after him until the end of time.

Your sect can't agree on who the Imam was before the prophet (SAW)!!!!

Can you tell me who the agreed upon imam was before the holy prophet (SAW)?

Or is that not important??

[Link]

Or is that not important??

Everything mentioned in Quran is important. Nothing in it is trivial. This is why I really think Satan is making a mockery out of you guys when you take verses and try to diminish them to trivial meanings and deny their significance.

The two places Elyas is mentioned are key insights to Quran and prove it's subtle eloquent majesty (among many other proofs there are in Quran regarding it being from God).

You have to recall:

1. The verses about witnesses.
2. Isa's statement about how long he was a witness.
3.The verses about reason of 1. God revealing books 2. God sending Messengers. 3. God sending Prophets (Who may or may not be MEssengers). 4. The verses about leadership, authority, and guidance (Imammate) aspect of the Prophets leadership. 5. The context of Ulil-Amr. 6. The divinely chosen families and the family of Mohammad. 7 The Ghadeer event while reading Suratal Maeeda (5th Surah) and then reading verse 5:12 and other verses about Twelve.

When you realize Bani-Israel, and all nations before them, who had founding Messengers all had chosen divine families with one Founder and 12 Successors,

When you realize there is a Guide and witness for all people.

When you realize who the witnesses are and the many verses about witnesses.

When you remember the verses about "sign" in context of miracles, and the responses, and the talk of "Ghayb" and guidance, then everything becomes clear.

Elyas is significant in where he is mentioned.

The same is true for example even about the very sculptures Sulaiman made. Quran would not reminded of the sculptures if they were insignificant.

It's pointing to what points to the true way of God in the corrupted texts of the Israelites.

Talut is mentioned because that had to be corrected, and the issue of leadership, chosen family of Moses and Aeron, etc, all had to be manifested.

This is not something you trivialize. IF we argue for Ahlulbayt without all the proof with regard to the past, then, it's belittling the verses of Quran that remind of the past.

So it does matter.

Does every Shia to be Shia have to know this about Elyas. No.

But they should constantly seek knowledge and when knowledge is shown to them, not deny it.