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Imamah fro Usool al-Deen? Ayatulla relies

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Hani

Imamah fro Usool al-Deen? Ayatulla relies
« on: August 05, 2014, 10:46:51 AM »
al-Salamu `Aleykum,


A Shia layperson used his intellect instead of making blind Taqleed of his masters. He asked his master a logical question, but the master started going all over the place and offered a rather confusing reply.


Website of grand Ayatulla Sayyidf Muhammad Sadiq Roohani: http://www.imamrohani.com/fatwa-ar/viewtopic.php?t=4482


(Please excuse us if this link stops working soon, as Roohani constantly changes his website for some reason)


QUESTION:


س: تفضلتم في جواب سؤال سابق حول «هل الامامة من اصول الدّين ام من المذهب» اجبتم «ان الامامة من اصول المذهب»؛ أليس المذهب الشيعي هو الدين نفسه الذي انزله الله على نبيه محمد(ص) كما انه اذا قلنا ان الامامة من اصول المذهب يقتضي ذلك ان الامامة هي نظرية فكرية، فهمها علماء المذهب انها من اصول مذهبهم، في حين ان المذاهب الاخرى رأوا غير ذلك؟ و من المعروف أن الامامة فرع النبوة و تقوم مقامها في حفظ الشريعة و تبليغ الاحكام، ما عدا بعض الخصائص مثل الوحي و على هذا المقام تكون من اصول الدّين و التشيّع هو الدين نفسه و ليس وجهة نظر في فهم الدين؟


[You have previously answered a question on "Is Imamah from the Usool of the Deen or the Usool of the Madhab" You answered "Imamah is from Usool al-Madhab" But isn't the Shi`ee Madhab the actual Deen which Allah revealed on Muhammad (saw)? If we say it is from Usool al-Madhab this means that it is no more than an intellectual theory, the scholars our Madhab understood it as being from their Usool, when on the other hand scholars of other Madhabs did not?
It is famous that Imamah is a branch of prophet-hood, and takes its position when it comes to defending Shari`ah and conveying rulings, with exception from receiving Wahi. Based on this it is from the Usool of the Deen and Tashayyu` is the Deen not just a point of view in how Deen must be understood?]


ANSWER OF AYATULLA ROOHANI:



ج: باسمه جلت اسمائه
لا اشکال في ان الامامة ارفع مقاما من النبوة، و ان اکمال الدين کان بنصب الامام اميرالمومنين عليه السلام بالامامة، قال الله تعالي اليوم اکملت لکم دينکم؛ و من لايعتقد بامامة الائمة الاثني عشر يموت کافرا


و الذي يترتب علي الفرق بين اصول المذهب و اصول الدين هو ترتب الآثار الظاهرية في الدنيا  من لم يعتقد بالامامة و العدل لا يحکم بکفره. و اما من لا يعتقد -به- الله تعالي- و برسول الله (ص) و المعاد، يحکم بانه کافر في جميع الاحکام المترتبة علي المسلم في الدنيا.


[In his glorified name,
There is no doubt that Imamah is greater than prophet-hood, and that the completion of religion was through appointing Imam `Ali (as), Allah most high said {Today I completed your religion} and whoever does not believe in the Imamah of the twelve Imams dies as a Kafir.
The difference between Usool al-Madhab and Usool al-Deen is simply the ruling on the person in the worldly life, for if a person does not believe in Imamah and `Adl, then his ruling is not that of a Kafir (in the worldly-life). As for the one who does not believe in Allah and his messenger (saw) and the last day, his ruling is like that of a Kafir in all matters of this worldly life.]


So let me understand this correctly, the only reason they say Imamah is from Usool al-Madhab, is NOT because it's not from Usool al-Deen, but simply because they realized that if they say it is from Usool al-Deen, then they have to rule openly on the Kufr of every person who does not believe in it, thus Taqiyyah dictates that they don't do that as they'll get into a lot of trouble. Solution was to change its categorization into "Usool al-Madhab" and say that all none believers in it are Kouffar but only in the after-life.

Not only that, the verse quoted by Roohani explicitly proves according to their own standards, that Imamah is from Usool al-Deen.

Bravo twelver Shia Bravo... I clap for your genius, a Kafir in your religion does not have the ruling of a Kafir.

I can only imagine, if the twelver shia actually rejected one of the pillars of Islam according to Ahlul-Sunnah, such as Hajj or Salat or prophet-hood, would we act in the same cowardly hypocritical way they do and say "Nah, Hajj is only from Usool al-Madhab." I Guarantee you we won't.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 10:55:33 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Imamah fro Usool al-Deen? Ayatulla relies
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2014, 11:32:23 AM »

ج: باسمه جلت اسمائه
لا اشکال في ان الامامة ارفع مقاما من النبوة، و ان اکمال الدين کان بنصب الامام اميرالمومنين عليه السلام بالامامة، قال الله تعالي اليوم اکملت لکم دينکم؛ و من لايعتقد بامامة الائمة الاثني عشر يموت کافرا

........if a person does not believe in Imamah and `Adl, then his ruling is not that of a Kafir (in the worldly-life). As for the one who does not believe in Allah and his messenger (saw) and the last day, his ruling is like that of a Kafir in all matters of this worldly life.]

Imamah > Nubuwah, shouldn't it means that kufr Imamah > kufr Nubuwah? It's such a contradictive answer.

truthseeker

Re: Imamah fro Usool al-Deen? Ayatulla relies
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 05:24:10 AM »
Salaam,

Al Khoei'i gave a similar fatwa:

Kitab Tahara Sayyed Ayatullah Al Khoe'i (2/84):

http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m001/04/no0466.html

قد وقع الكلام في نجاسة الفرق المخالفة للشيعة الاثنى عشرية وطهارتهم. وحاصل الكلام في ذلك إن إنكار الولاية لجميع الأئمة -- ع -- أو لبعضهم هل هو كإنكار الرسالة يستتبع الكفر والنجاسة؟ أو أن إنكار الولاية إنما يوجب الخروج عن الإيمان مع الحكم بإسلامه وطهارته. فالمعروف المشهور بين المسلمين طهارة أهل الخلاف وغيرهم من الفرق المخالفة للشيعة الاثنى عشرية ولكن صاحب الحدائق " قده " نسب إلى المشهور بين المتقدمين والى السيد المرتضى وغيره الحكم بكفر أهل الخلاف ونجاستهم وبنى عليه واختاره كما أنه بنى على نجاسة جميع من خرج عن الشيعة الاثنى عشرية من الفرق. وما يمكن أن يستدل به على نجاسة المخالفين وجوه ثلاثة: " الأول ": ما ورد في الروايات الكثيرة البالغة حد الاستفاضة من أن المخالف لهم -- ع -- كافر

We had already spoke about The Najasah(uncleanliness) of all the teams who differ with the Twelver Shias and their Tahara. And in brief that denying the Wilayah for ''all'' the Imams PBUT or ''some of them'''' is like denying the message and it brings Kufr and Najasah? Or that Denying The Wilayah necessarily means leaving Iman (Belief) with the Hukm of his Islam and Tahara. What is popular amongst the scholars Is the Tahara of those who differ with us Although the author of the book "Al Hada'eq" May Allah sanctify his secret has attributed to the modern scholars like al Sayyed al murtada that it was popular amongst them That those who differ are Kouffar and Najis even the ''other'' Shia teams(1). What we can use to prove the Najasah of those who differ with us is divided into three parts, Firstly what we Read in Countless and plenty of Narrations that those who differ with the Imams are Kouffar...

(1.includes Waqifiyah,Zaydiyah ,Isma'iliyah)


ومنه يظهر الحال في سائر الفرق المخالفين للشيعة الاثنى عشرية من الزيدية، والكيسانية، والاسماعيلية، وغيرهم، حيث ان حكمهم حكم
[وأما مع النصب أو السب للائمة الذين لا يعتقدون بإمامتهم فهم مثل سائر النواصب] أهل الخلاف لضرورة انه لا فرق في إنكار الولاية بين إنكارها ونفيها عن الأئمة -- ع -- باجمعهم وبين إثباتها لبعضهم ونفيها عن الآخرين -- ع -- كيف وقد ورد أن من أنكر واحدا منهم فقد أنكر جميعهم -- ع -- وقد عرفت أن نفي الولاية عنهم -- باجمعهم غير مستلزم للكفر والنجاسة فضلا عن نفيها عن بعض دون بعض فالصحيح الحكم بطهارة جميع المخالفين للشيعة الاثنى عشرية و إسلامهم ظاهرا بلا فرق في ذلك بين أهل الخلاف وبين غيرهم وان كان جميعهم في الحقيقة كافرين وهم الذين سميناهم بمسلم الدنيا وكافر الآخرة.


And thus Other Shia teams like Zaidiyah, Kisaniyah, Ismaliyah and others their ruling is the same as that of those who differ with us because there is no difference between denying Wilayah of the Imams altogether and between accepting it for ''some ''Imams and denying it for other Imams, and it was mentioned that he who denies'' one'' denies'' all'', and I know that Denying this Wilayah does not mean Kufr or Najasah nor does denying Wilayah for some of the Imams, What is correct is The Tahara of all those who differ with the Twelver Shia and their Islam Based on what is ''Apparent'' Although ÍN REALITY They are All Kouffar and we have called them Muslims in The Dunyah and Kaffirs on The Day of judgement.

Source: kitab al tahara, Khoei, 2/87.

sheikh Muhammad Hassan Jawahiri in his book "Jawahir al-kalam" 6/67 quoted hadith:
ان الزيدية والواقفة والنصاب بمنزلة واحدة
"Zaydiya, Waqifiyah and Nawaseeb are at the same level".

Hani

Re: Imamah fro Usool al-Deen? Ayatulla relies
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 02:19:24 PM »
Yes i've read that before, it's a sly belief to consider us Kouffar only in the after-life.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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