TwelverShia.net Forum

Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2017, 04:10:55 AM »

Thank you very much for stating that. That is exactly what I meant by "the biggest".

When your 12th imam reappear (as per your belief):

Imam al-Sajjad (a) is quoted as saying that "When our al-Qa'im rises, God will remove fear from the hearts of our Shiites".

Imam Muhammad b. Ali al-Baqir (peace be upon him) has replied, “For a full eight months, he will have his sword unsheathed and will kill the enemies of God until God is satisfied.” (Al-Ghaybah)

....  no more taqiyyah.

Hence, that usul al-mazhab 'twisting' is more towards taqiyyah rather than fiqh issue...

No, it does not. It is related to shubha, where it is said one can regard the mukhalifeen as Muslims due to the fact that there is a shubha on whether haqq is with the Shi'a or not.

When the Mahdi arrives, this shubha will be lifted as the mukhalifeen will have no choice but to believe - because he will be there calling to himself and to the true Islam. If they reject, they will be regarded as kafir in both dunya and akhira, as opposed to only akhira, as some scholars have stated.

I do not know why you are still trying to argue the taqiyya point. No one has ever said this.

That explanation of yours shows how short your memory is and will only invite another obvious problem:

Why the ruling for those living during "syubha period" only apply in dunya and not extended to akhira? This syubha of not knowing whether Twelverism on the haq or not, is due to your 12th Imam by going missing, not Sunnis. And you said it yourself that the syubha will be lifted when he re-appear. Hence, proof the "fault" is purely on his side.

When any Sunnis die before your imam's re-appearance, they will die together with that syubha. Nothing change. The status remain the same. So, by any stretch of imagination, the only just and fair ruling is that those Sunnis shall remain muslim and not kafir .

As for no one has ever said it is taqiyya, surely no one from your sect will ever do that. Who wants to admit that?

Hence, the only reasonable and logical answer to "muslim in this world" is taqiyyah mumbo-jumbo.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 04:12:58 AM by Abu Muhammad »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2017, 01:36:11 PM »

Thank you very much for stating that. That is exactly what I meant by "the biggest".

When your 12th imam reappear (as per your belief):

Imam al-Sajjad (a) is quoted as saying that "When our al-Qa'im rises, God will remove fear from the hearts of our Shiites".

Imam Muhammad b. Ali al-Baqir (peace be upon him) has replied, “For a full eight months, he will have his sword unsheathed and will kill the enemies of God until God is satisfied.” (Al-Ghaybah)

....  no more taqiyyah.

Hence, that usul al-mazhab 'twisting' is more towards taqiyyah rather than fiqh issue...

No, it does not. It is related to shubha, where it is said one can regard the mukhalifeen as Muslims due to the fact that there is a shubha on whether haqq is with the Shi'a or not.

When the Mahdi arrives, this shubha will be lifted as the mukhalifeen will have no choice but to believe - because he will be there calling to himself and to the true Islam. If they reject, they will be regarded as kafir in both dunya and akhira, as opposed to only akhira, as some scholars have stated.

I do not know why you are still trying to argue the taqiyya point. No one has ever said this.

That explanation of yours shows how short your memory is and will only invite another obvious problem:

Why the ruling for those living during "syubha period" only apply in dunya and not extended to akhira? This syubha of not knowing whether Twelverism on the haq or not, is due to your 12th Imam by going missing, not Sunnis. And you said it yourself that the syubha will be lifted when he re-appear. Hence, proof the "fault" is purely on his side.

When any Sunnis die before your imam's re-appearance, they will die together with that syubha. Nothing change. The status remain the same. So, by any stretch of imagination, the only just and fair ruling is that those Sunnis shall remain muslim and not kafir .

As for no one has ever said it is taqiyya, surely no one from your sect will ever do that. Who wants to admit that?

Hence, the only reasonable and logical answer to "muslim in this world" is taqiyyah mumbo-jumbo.

Lol. Another fascinating comment. And this is why if you are ignorant of Shi'i Fiqh, you should not speak.

"Shubha" in this case does not change your fate (Jannah or Jahannam), "shubha" in this case is related to whether someone is intentionally or non-intentionally denying an asl of the deen.

The default criteria for Islam according to scholars like Al-Khoei is belief in the shahadatayn and qiyamah. But if you intentionally deny any other part of the religion (like Salat for example), intentionally while knowing it is the correct hukm, you will he considered a kafir.

But this ruling of "shubha" does not apply to the three default beliefs that we stated as a criteria for calling someone a Muslim, which are; Tawheed, Nubuwwah (and according to some) Qiyamah.

Now, let's return to the usool. Imamah is not a criteria to default Islam (meaning being considered a Muslim in Fiqh) - but it is a criteria for actually being a Muslim in reality, and that is what you will be judged by in the akhira.

Because denial of Imamah is not any different from denial of Nubuwwah - in principle - and so when you ask me why this "shubha" is not extended to the akhira, the answer is that in the same way the kuffar cannot be excused for denial of the Prophet (s) based on "shubha", than those who deny the Imams (as) also cannot be excused.

And I already told you, your taqiyya theory does not hold up. I told you, according to this Fiqhi opinion, you can make up your own sect right now and as long as you believe in tawheed, nubuwwah, and Immamah, then you will be considered a Muslim.

This doesn't just apply to Sunnis.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Abu Muhammad

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2017, 05:10:29 PM »

Thank you very much for stating that. That is exactly what I meant by "the biggest".

When your 12th imam reappear (as per your belief):

Imam al-Sajjad (a) is quoted as saying that "When our al-Qa'im rises, God will remove fear from the hearts of our Shiites".

Imam Muhammad b. Ali al-Baqir (peace be upon him) has replied, “For a full eight months, he will have his sword unsheathed and will kill the enemies of God until God is satisfied.” (Al-Ghaybah)

....  no more taqiyyah.

Hence, that usul al-mazhab 'twisting' is more towards taqiyyah rather than fiqh issue...

No, it does not. It is related to shubha, where it is said one can regard the mukhalifeen as Muslims due to the fact that there is a shubha on whether haqq is with the Shi'a or not.

When the Mahdi arrives, this shubha will be lifted as the mukhalifeen will have no choice but to believe - because he will be there calling to himself and to the true Islam. If they reject, they will be regarded as kafir in both dunya and akhira, as opposed to only akhira, as some scholars have stated.

I do not know why you are still trying to argue the taqiyya point. No one has ever said this.

That explanation of yours shows how short your memory is and will only invite another obvious problem:

Why the ruling for those living during "syubha period" only apply in dunya and not extended to akhira? This syubha of not knowing whether Twelverism on the haq or not, is due to your 12th Imam by going missing, not Sunnis. And you said it yourself that the syubha will be lifted when he re-appear. Hence, proof the "fault" is purely on his side.

When any Sunnis die before your imam's re-appearance, they will die together with that syubha. Nothing change. The status remain the same. So, by any stretch of imagination, the only just and fair ruling is that those Sunnis shall remain muslim and not kafir .

As for no one has ever said it is taqiyya, surely no one from your sect will ever do that. Who wants to admit that?

Hence, the only reasonable and logical answer to "muslim in this world" is taqiyyah mumbo-jumbo.

Lol. Another fascinating comment. And this is why if you are ignorant of Shi'i Fiqh, you should not speak.

"Shubha" in this case does not change your fate (Jannah or Jahannam), "shubha" in this case is related to whether someone is intentionally or non-intentionally denying an asl of the deen.

The default criteria for Islam according to scholars like Al-Khoei is belief in the shahadatayn and qiyamah. But if you intentionally deny any other part of the religion (like Salat for example), intentionally while knowing it is the correct hukm, you will he considered a kafir.

But this ruling of "shubha" does not apply to the three default beliefs that we stated as a criteria for calling someone a Muslim, which are; Tawheed, Nubuwwah (and according to some) Qiyamah.

Now, let's return to the usool. Imamah is not a criteria to default Islam (meaning being considered a Muslim in Fiqh) - but it is a criteria for actually being a Muslim in reality, and that is what you will be judged by in the akhira.

Because denial of Imamah is not any different from denial of Nubuwwah - in principle - and so when you ask me why this "shubha" is not extended to the akhira, the answer is that in the same way the kuffar cannot be excused for denial of the Prophet (s) based on "shubha", than those who deny the Imams (as) also cannot be excused.

And I already told you, your taqiyya theory does not hold up. I told you, according to this Fiqhi opinion, you can make up your own sect right now and as long as you believe in tawheed, nubuwwah, and Immamah, then you will be considered a Muslim.

This doesn't just apply to Sunnis.

Thank you for explaining that. Despite jab here and there, I actually like the way you are trying to explain your sect.

Coming back to the discussion, reading from your responses, I got mix messages on "syubha". Hence, I would like you, firstly, to please explain clearly what "syubha" is and how does that related to "muslim in this world". The way you explained up there is not clear at all, at least to me.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2017, 07:14:06 PM »

Thank you very much for stating that. That is exactly what I meant by "the biggest".

When your 12th imam reappear (as per your belief):

Imam al-Sajjad (a) is quoted as saying that "When our al-Qa'im rises, God will remove fear from the hearts of our Shiites".

Imam Muhammad b. Ali al-Baqir (peace be upon him) has replied, “For a full eight months, he will have his sword unsheathed and will kill the enemies of God until God is satisfied.” (Al-Ghaybah)

....  no more taqiyyah.

Hence, that usul al-mazhab 'twisting' is more towards taqiyyah rather than fiqh issue...

No, it does not. It is related to shubha, where it is said one can regard the mukhalifeen as Muslims due to the fact that there is a shubha on whether haqq is with the Shi'a or not.

When the Mahdi arrives, this shubha will be lifted as the mukhalifeen will have no choice but to believe - because he will be there calling to himself and to the true Islam. If they reject, they will be regarded as kafir in both dunya and akhira, as opposed to only akhira, as some scholars have stated.

I do not know why you are still trying to argue the taqiyya point. No one has ever said this.

That explanation of yours shows how short your memory is and will only invite another obvious problem:

Why the ruling for those living during "syubha period" only apply in dunya and not extended to akhira? This syubha of not knowing whether Twelverism on the haq or not, is due to your 12th Imam by going missing, not Sunnis. And you said it yourself that the syubha will be lifted when he re-appear. Hence, proof the "fault" is purely on his side.

When any Sunnis die before your imam's re-appearance, they will die together with that syubha. Nothing change. The status remain the same. So, by any stretch of imagination, the only just and fair ruling is that those Sunnis shall remain muslim and not kafir .

As for no one has ever said it is taqiyya, surely no one from your sect will ever do that. Who wants to admit that?

Hence, the only reasonable and logical answer to "muslim in this world" is taqiyyah mumbo-jumbo.

Lol. Another fascinating comment. And this is why if you are ignorant of Shi'i Fiqh, you should not speak.

"Shubha" in this case does not change your fate (Jannah or Jahannam), "shubha" in this case is related to whether someone is intentionally or non-intentionally denying an asl of the deen.

The default criteria for Islam according to scholars like Al-Khoei is belief in the shahadatayn and qiyamah. But if you intentionally deny any other part of the religion (like Salat for example), intentionally while knowing it is the correct hukm, you will he considered a kafir.

But this ruling of "shubha" does not apply to the three default beliefs that we stated as a criteria for calling someone a Muslim, which are; Tawheed, Nubuwwah (and according to some) Qiyamah.

Now, let's return to the usool. Imamah is not a criteria to default Islam (meaning being considered a Muslim in Fiqh) - but it is a criteria for actually being a Muslim in reality, and that is what you will be judged by in the akhira.

Because denial of Imamah is not any different from denial of Nubuwwah - in principle - and so when you ask me why this "shubha" is not extended to the akhira, the answer is that in the same way the kuffar cannot be excused for denial of the Prophet (s) based on "shubha", than those who deny the Imams (as) also cannot be excused.

And I already told you, your taqiyya theory does not hold up. I told you, according to this Fiqhi opinion, you can make up your own sect right now and as long as you believe in tawheed, nubuwwah, and Immamah, then you will be considered a Muslim.

This doesn't just apply to Sunnis.

Thank you for explaining that. Despite jab here and there, I actually like the way you are trying to explain your sect.

Coming back to the discussion, reading from your responses, I got mix messages on "syubha". Hence, I would like you, firstly, to please explain clearly what "syubha" is and how does that related to "muslim in this world". The way you explained up there is not clear at all, at least to me.

Your welcome, and I apologise if there was a lack of akhlaq in my previous post(s).

What is meant by shubha is that you are not intentionally rejecting a part of the revelation (e.g Imamah) - but that this particular aqeeda has not been proven to you.  And so, when the Mahdi (as) returns, there is no room for doubt because he will prove this to you.

A Muslim in this world, according to this Fiqhi position of Al-Khoei, is that he is only required to believe in three things: Tawheed, Nubuwwah, Qiyamah. That's it.

If he believes in those three, and does not believe in anything which negates those three, then he is treated as a Muslim.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Abu Muhammad

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2017, 10:00:09 PM »
Your welcome, and I apologise if there was a lack of akhlaq in my previous post(s).

Me too on my part. Understandably, engaging in this kind of discussion could easily raise ones emotion. However, I hope we do not go overboard or else Farid will kick both of us out... 😜

What is meant by shubha is that you are not intentionally rejecting a part of the revelation (e.g Imamah) - but that this particular aqeeda has not been proven to you.

Unintentional rejecting but not proven unto someone? What does that suppose to mean, really? Any example to make it clearer?

Abu Muhammad

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2018, 05:02:47 PM »
@Zlatan,

*bump*

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2018, 07:12:28 PM »
Unintentional rejecting but not proven unto someone? What does that suppose to mean, really? Any example to make it clearer?

It would be like someone disbelieving in Salat due to a shubha (hasn't heard of it being wajib, for eg). That guy is not declared a kafir. But someone who rejects Salat after it was proven to him it is wajib (proof from Qur'an and Sunnah) then he is a kafir.

The Sunni usually does not reject Imamah out of stubborness, but because it hasn't been proven to him. So he is like the one who has not believed in Salat because it hasn't been proven to him i.e he is treated as a Muslim.

This is related to treatment in dunya.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

GreatChineseFall

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2018, 05:53:35 PM »
It would be like someone disbelieving in Salat due to a shubha (hasn't heard of it being wajib, for eg). That guy is not declared a kafir.

Is such a person a kafir in the Hereafter if he dies and never hears of it being wajib?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 05:56:47 PM by GreatChineseFall »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2018, 06:04:49 PM »
Is such a person a kafir in the Hereafter if he dies and never hears of it being wajib?

No.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

GreatChineseFall

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2018, 10:42:25 PM »
So he is like the one who has not believed in Salat because it hasn't been proven to him i.e he is treated as a Muslim.

So it isn't exactly the same then. Is there another example, besides someone who rejects Imamah openly, who is treated as a Muslim in this life and is considered a kafir in the Hereafter while rejecting something openly due to a shubha?

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2018, 04:09:01 AM »
So it isn't exactly the same then. Is there another example, besides someone who rejects Imamah openly, who is treated as a Muslim in this life and is considered a kafir in the Hereafter while rejecting something openly due to a shubha?

It's the same in treatment in the dunya.

As for your question, it seems that adl of Allah would be treated as the same in the Afterlife.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Abu_Abdullah

Imamah
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2018, 11:32:31 AM »
If someone believes in Imamah but doesn't believe in all 12 Imam's, so, for instance he only believes in 7 of them. Is he excused?

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Imamah
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2018, 04:43:44 PM »
If someone believes in Imamah but doesn't believe in all 12 Imam's, so, for instance he only believes in 7 of them. Is he excused?

No. Disbelief in one of them is like disbelief in all.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Abu Muhammad

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2018, 07:11:45 PM »
It would be like someone disbelieving in Salat due to a shubha (hasn't heard of it being wajib, for eg). That guy is not declared a kafir. But someone who rejects Salat after it was proven to him it is wajib (proof from Qur'an and Sunnah) then he is a kafir.

Intresting anology but not really supporting your argument. It's hard to find muslims who disbelieve in salat due to not knowing salat is wajib or due to any other syubha. I don't know in which caves they are living in for not knowing the obligatory of salat in Islam and hence disbelieving it.

The Sunni usually does not reject Imamah out of stubborness, but because it hasn't been proven to him. So he is like the one who has not believed in Salat because it hasn't been proven to him i.e he is treated as a Muslim.

This is related to treatment in dunya.

Hmm... I have a thing to say to you but before I say that, I want your honest and straight answer. What is your take on us, Sunnis, on this forum? Are we still muslims in this dunya or already kuffar?

Hadrami

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2018, 01:34:07 AM »
Intresting anology but not really supporting your argument. It's hard to find muslims who disbelieve in salat due to not knowing salat is wajib or due to any other syubha. I don't know in which caves they are living in for not knowing the obligatory of salat in Islam and hence disbelieving it.

Hmm... I have a thing to say to you but before I say that, I want your honest and straight answer. What is your take on us, Sunnis, on this forum? Are we still muslims in this dunya or already kuffar?
If Abu Bakr is kafir for a rafidi like him, its hard to believe all sunni in this world are not kuffar, but then again a lying sect follower usually lies to hide the takfiri nature of their sect

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2018, 03:24:03 AM »
Intresting anology but not really supporting your argument. It's hard to find muslims who disbelieve in salat due to not knowing salat is wajib or due to any other syubha. I don't know in which caves they are living in for not knowing the obligatory of salat in Islam and hence disbelieving it.

Hmm... I have a thing to say to you but before I say that, I want your honest and straight answer. What is your take on us, Sunnis, on this forum? Are we still muslims in this dunya or already kuffar?

It doesn't have to be Salat, it can be any part of the revelation of the Prophet. What seems so hard for people here to understand is, that, simply saying the Shahadatayn is enough to be treated as a Muslim.

If you then deny any part of the revelation of the Prophet with no excuse (i.e shubha, or jahl) then you become a kafir.

It's not that hard really.



The ones on this forum are Muslim except the ones who have mocked the Twelfth Imam or have mocked our madhab due to their emnity, as I have seen from a lot of the people. Those people are kafirs and najis.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 03:33:44 AM by Zlatan Ibrahimovic »
محور المقاومة والممانعة

GreatChineseFall

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2018, 01:21:39 PM »
It's the same in treatment in the dunya.

As for your question, it seems that adl of Allah would be treated as the same in the Afterlife.

Are you sure, because my impression was different. I thought that at the very least they would be treated as a Mu'min. To be clear, no one really rejects Imamah or the Adl of Allah totally, they may reject what is considered a fundamental part of it but not entirely. For example, a person who believes in the twelve Imams as the rightful successors but does not believe in their infallibility due to a shubha. He rejects a fundamental part of Imamah, which is the infallibility of them and he rejects a fundamental part of Adl, which is Allah leaving this world without an infallible guide. Is such a person a kafir in the Hereafter? And if so, is he treated as a Mu'min or a Muslim in this world? On what basis is the difference between a Mu'min and a Muslim made if he is a kafir in the Hereafter?

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2018, 03:10:47 PM »
Are you sure, because my impression was different. I thought that at the very least they would be treated as a Mu'min. To be clear, no one really rejects Imamah or the Adl of Allah totally, they may reject what is considered a fundamental part of it but not entirely. For example, a person who believes in the twelve Imams as the rightful successors but does not believe in their infallibility due to a shubha. He rejects a fundamental part of Imamah, which is the infallibility of them and he rejects a fundamental part of Adl, which is Allah leaving this world without an infallible guide. Is such a person a kafir in the Hereafter? And if so, is he treated as a Mu'min or a Muslim in this world? On what basis is the difference between a Mu'min and a Muslim made if he is a kafir in the Hereafter?

Interesting questions. There seems to be a difference of opinion amongst the fuqaha regarding what constitutes rejectness.

There are very important Fiqhi differences between a Mu'min and a Muslim as well as of course, the punishment in akhira. If you want I can go through them.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hadrami

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2018, 10:10:27 PM »
The ones on this forum are Muslim except the ones who have mocked the Twelfth Imam or have mocked our madhab due to their emnity, as I have seen from a lot of the people. Those people are kafirs and najis.
Stop lying ya takfiri. Loving Abu Bakr is enough to make a sunni to be considered as kafir and najis nasibi according to your filthy sect.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:13:14 PM by Hadrami »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2018, 03:21:16 AM »
Stop lying ya takfiri. Loving Abu Bakr is enough to make a sunni to be considered as kafir and najis nasibi according to your filthy sect.

This is why you have a filthy heart. You fool, not every nasibi is najis. You read stuff online in English from zindeeq websites like these and their liking which are created by your retarded Wahabi brethren.

Read ya ghabi if you can even read Arabic;

والجواب عن ذلك أن غاية ما يمكن استفادته من هذه الأخبار أن كل مخالف للأئمة (عليهم السلام) ناصبي إلاّ أن ذلك لا يكفي في الحكم بنجاسة أهل الخلاف ، حيث لا  دليل على نجاسة كل ناصب ، فان النصب إنما يوجب النجاسة فيما إذا كان لهم (عليهم السلام) وأما النصب لشيعتهم فان كان منشؤه حبّ الشيعة لأمير المؤمنين وأولاده (عليهم السلام) ولذلك نصب لهم وأبغضهم فهو عين النصب للأئمة (عليهم السلام) لأنه إعلان لعداوتهم ببغض من يحبهم ، وأما إذا كان منشؤه عدم متابعتهم لمن يرونه خليفة للنبي (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) من غير أن يستند إلى حبهم لأهل البيت (عليهم السلام) بل هو بنفسه يظهر الحب لعلي وأولاده (عليهم السلام) فهذا نصب للشيعة دون الأئمة (عليهم السلام) إلاّ أن النصب للشيعة لا يستتبع النجاسة بوجه ، لما تقدّم من الأخبار والسيرة القطعية القائمة على طهارة المخالفـين ، فالنصب المقتضي للنجاسة إنما هو خصوص النصب للأئمة (عليهم السلام) .


محور المقاومة والممانعة

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
645 Views
Last post November 08, 2015, 11:16:42 AM
by Bolani Muslim
4 Replies
1152 Views
Last post March 10, 2016, 02:26:52 AM
by Rationalist
1 Replies
179 Views
Last post May 22, 2017, 09:42:30 AM
by Optimus Prime
40 Replies
950 Views
Last post November 28, 2017, 02:51:56 AM
by MuslimK