Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?

[iceman]

It looks like I've most certainly got you two going. Oops, I must have touched a very sore and painful nerve. I did give you an example of such a major difference but those Deobandi and Barelvi Scholars have been branded as VILLAGE IDIOTS by you. This is how you be little others if things don't go your way.

Now speaking about the term you used to describe Deobandi and Barelvi scholars as VILLAGE IDIOTS what do you think about those who issue similar Fatwas about attending funeral prayers of a deceased Shia? Would you also call and brand them as VILLAGE IDIOTS?

[iceman]

The major difference between Sunni and Wahabi is the beliefs and rituals. Sunnis are in majority and almost 90% percent of Muslims around the world belong to Sunni sect whereas the members of Wahabi movement are located in Saudi Arab.

There are a few main and major as well as many secondary differences between the Sunni and Wahabi Muslims which caused these sects to be cut off from each other and emerge independently. Point to be noted Wahabis are also Sunnis.

The major difference between them is that Wahabis believe that Prophet Muhammad should be praised only as a human being whereas Sunnis show extra special care and respect towards the Prophet of Islam.

Some Sunnis celebrate the birthday of the Holy Prophet and arrange Meelaad. Meelaad is a form of gathering in which the Sunni Muslims get together and praise the Holy Prophet. The birthdays of Sufi saints are also celebrated with much dedication and enthusiasm. The day of their deaths are commemorated in the form of Urs.

Sunni Wahabi do not believe in celebrating and practicing all these events which are very strongly rooted in Islam. Wahabis call these practices of events as unlawful and wrongful innovations. Wahabis also believe that this is as close as to shirk or polytheism and Sunnis follow the ways of infidel Hindus.

If these are not major differences then I don't know what are.

[muslim720]

It looks like I've most certainly got you two going. Oops, I must have touched a very sore and painful nerve.

The only time you should use the term "sore" in your post has to be to refer to your own self as a "sore" loser.

I did give you an example of such a major difference but those Deobandi and Barelvi Scholars have been branded as VILLAGE IDIOTS by you. This is how you be little others if things don't go your way.

No, idiot, you made my task easier by testifying against your own self.  Before I could even get to it, you established the fact that both Deobandis and Barelvis follow the same school of fiqh and between them, there is a toss-up when it comes to their school of aqeedah.  That is, they can follow Ashari or Maturidi school of creed. 

What you will not account for is why they make takfeer on each other - in other words, you won't respond to my post directly - because you are up same alley (when it comes to istighaatha) as the Deobandis and Barelvis.

Now speaking about the term you used to describe Deobandi and Barelvi scholars as VILLAGE IDIOTS what do you think about those who issue similar Fatwas about attending funeral prayers of a deceased Shia? Would you also call and brand them as VILLAGE IDIOTS?

Oh so that is your script!  You were hoping to get a similar type of response or reaction to then bring in a fatwa in relation to Shias.  What is pathetic is that you have not even dared to say a word regarding my rebuttal (of your copy-paste news reports dating back to 2006) and now you wish to rush into your next act.

[iceman]

Sunni Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad is Nur and still present in this world. Whereas Wahabis do not believe in using pious individuals as intermediaries when asking Allah as they consider it shirk or polytheism.

Sunnis believe in the saints and mysticism whereas Wahabis do not believe in mysticism, intercession and prostration as well. Sunni Muslims visit the tombs of the saints and perform tawassul for the blessings of Allah whereas it is the greatest sin for a Wahabi.

Sunni Muslims believe in four imams of fiqah or Islamic laws such as Hanfi, Hanbli, Malakii and Shaafeyii whereas Wahabi does not follow an Iman in Fiqh. Wahabi Muslims are a group of fundamentalists and have an orthodox version Islam.

Wahabis in Saudi Arab do not allow their females to work side by side with their men and they also are not allowed to drive a car. The women are treated as third rate citizens and they are bound to wear a long abayaa or garment to cover them from head to toe. Sunni Muslims are moderate and believe in the equality of women as suggested by Islam.

[iceman]

There are many differences present in their rituals of praying, marriage ceremonies, dresses etc. Wahabi Muslims have separate mosques and schools. Wahabi Muslims are followers of Mohammed ibn Abdul Wahab in the 18th century in Arabia, and his movement came up against a lot of opposition from the Indian Sunni Muslims.

Members of the Wahab movement in Saudi Arabia believe their role as a restorer or reformer to free Islam from negative deviances, heresies, innovations, superstitions and idolatries. Wahabis prefer to eliminate music and listening to songs. They are against watching television and drawings of living things which contain a soul.

So the main question, do you consider Wahabis as Sunnis, as part of the Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah? Yes or no.

[muslim720]

Sunni Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad is Nur and still present in this world. Whereas Wahabis do not believe in using pious individuals as intermediaries when asking Allah as they consider it shirk or polytheism.

Sunnis believe in the saints and mysticism whereas Wahabis do not believe in mysticism, intercession and prostration as well.

Another scholarly source: differencebetween.net

As for Wahabis not believing in intermediaries or intercession, they classify tawassul to be valid in three ways:

1.  Invoking Allah (swt) by mentioning His Attributes.

2.  Asking Allah (swt) for something by making mention of a good deed (or good deeds) you may have done.

3.  Asking a pious person, who is alive, to supplicate to Allah (swt) on your behalf.

Point 3 refutes your lie because according to Wahabis, you can use an intermediary to intercede on your behalf by supplicating for you.

Your mouth has issued many checks your @$$ can't cash!

[iceman]

The only time you should use the term "sore" in your post has to be to refer to your own self as a "sore" loser.

No, idiot, you made my task easier by testifying against your own self.  Before I could even get to it, you established the fact that both Deobandis and Barelvis follow the same school of fiqh and between them, there is a toss-up when it comes to their school of aqeedah.  That is, they can follow Ashari or Maturidi school of creed. 

What you will not account for is why they make takfeer on each other - in other words, you won't respond to my post directly - because you are up same alley (when it comes to istighaatha) as the Deobandis and Barelvis.

Oh so that is your script!  You were hoping to get a similar type of response or reaction to then bring in a fatwa in relation to Shias.  What is pathetic is that you have not even dared to say a word regarding my rebuttal (of your copy-paste news reports dating back to 2006) and now you wish to rush into your next act.

Mythbuster1, post #251. That's what I was referring to. Read it.

[iceman]

Another scholarly source: differencebetween.net

As for Wahabis not believing in intermediaries or intercession, they classify tawassul to be valid in three ways:

1.  Invoking Allah (swt) by mentioning His Attributes.

2.  Asking Allah (swt) for something by making mention of a good deed (or good deeds) you may have done.

3.  Asking a pious person, who is alive, to supplicate to Allah (swt) on your behalf.

Point 3 refutes your lie because according to Wahabis, you can use an intermediary to intercede on your behalf by supplicating for you.

Your mouth has issued many checks your @$$ can't cash!

Answer my question,

So the main question, do you consider Wahabis as Sunnis, as part of the Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah? Yes or no.

Go on, give it a try. Don't be shy.

[muslim720]

Or even better, how about post # 257?  Or is that too scary, too occultation-inducing?

[muslim720]

Answer my question,

So the main question, do you consider Wahabis as Sunnis, as part of the Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah? Yes or no.

Go on, give it a try. Don't be shy.

That is what they tell your folks during mutah transactions, "don't be shy"!  Abey choodday kanjar, who made you the moderator?  First address my rebuttals.  You cannot ask question after question when you have numerous posts staring at you awaiting a response!

[iceman]

Or even better, how about post # 257?  Or is that too scary, too occultation-inducing?

I was referring to Mythbuster1, post #251. That's what I was referring to. I don't know why you jumped in with your tantrums.

[iceman]

That is what they tell your folks during mutah transactions, "don't be shy"!  Abey choodday kanjar, who made you the moderator?  First address my rebuttals.  You cannot ask question after question when you have numerous posts staring at you awaiting a response!

This is not the Mu'tah thread, which you're clearly fascinated about since you keep yapping on about it by means of sarcasm. Any comments you want to make about Mu'tah please feel free but on that thread. Stick to the rules of engagement.

Do you consider Wahabis as Sunnis and part of Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah, under this umbrella? Don't be shy. You have much more than just differences of/ in Fiqh, and I have just proven that.

[iceman]

The Mu'tazilites

In the second/eighth century, Sunni Islam saw the emergence of a group called the Mu'tazilites. It was responsible for whetting the appetite of Muslims for speculative investigations. It adopted logic, philosophy, and rationalism to sharpen the tools of dialectical theology to defend Islam against Christianity, Manichaeism, and other forms of alien religious thought.

The Mu'tazilites went into excesses in their beliefs, particularly in respect of tawḥīd (Oneness of God) and the creation of the Quran (khalq al-Qur'ān). The beatific vision (seeing God in the hereafter) was another matter of controversy among them and other early Islamic schools of thought.

The Quran says: "Some faces that Day will beam (in brightness and beauty) looking towards their Lord" (LXXV, 22-23). This verse implies that on the Last Day the faces of the loyal servants of God will be radiant with joy by looking at His Countenance. The same truth is emphasized by the hadīth, many of which assert that one of the boundless blessings that the faithful (mu'minūun) will receive in the hereafter is that they will see God Most High and that this will be the source of the greatest bliss and happiness for them.

But the Mu'tazilites denied the possibility of beatific vision on the ground that it was not logically possible because only a thing that exists in material form or has color or surface can be seen by the human eye. They argued that since God has neither form nor substance nor is He contained in space and time, the question of seeing Him does not arise. The possibility of seeing God was rejected by the Mu'tazilites on rationalistic grounds, even though such a rejection meant refuting the relevant verse of the Quran.

Although the Mu'tazilites were Sunnis, such views were not accepted by the majority of Sunnis, who believed that since the Prophet has asserted authoritatively the possibility of the beatific vision in his sayings, and that the sahabah too had drawn no other inference from these ahādīth except that in the hereafter the faithful (mu'minūn) will be blessed with an unconcealed view of God, every Muslim must believe in the possibility of such vision.

 

[iceman]

I have given you more than enough proof that differences amongst the Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah are much more than just differences in fiqh, and what you claim as 'minor differences'.

[muslim720]

This is not the Mu'tah thread, which you're clearly fascinated about since you keep yapping on about it by means of sarcasm. Any comments you want to make about Mu'tah please feel free but on that thread. Stick to the rules of engagement.

Every discussion with a Shi'i like yourself is a discussion on mu'tah.  If we are to account for the decision of village elders then you are equally responsible to account for your own lineage.

Do you consider Wahabis as Sunnis and part of Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah, under this umbrella?

You are racing to Wahabis because you have violated the Qur'an, by creating a sect and proudly accepting the very name (Shia) which the Qur'an condemns (when it comes to splitting the religion) but there is no reason to throw out names.

The Mu'tazilites

In the second/eighth century, Sunni Islam saw the emergence of a group called the Mu'tazilites. It was responsible for whetting the appetite of Muslims for speculative investigations. It adopted logic, philosophy, and rationalism to sharpen the tools of dialectical theology to defend Islam against Christianity, Manichaeism, and other forms of alien religious thought.

How are the Mu'tazilites Sunnis?  In fact, your own copy-paste says that Sunni Islam "saw the emergence of a group called the Mu'tazilites" which is not the same as Sunnis splitting into factions such as Mu'tazilites and non-Mu'tazilites.  What you should be worried about is the fact that your beliefs are deeply rooted in Mu'tazilite thought so we condemn you just as we condemned the Mu'tazilites.

[iceman]

Every discussion with a Shi'i like yourself is a discussion on mu'tah.  If we are to account for the decision of village elders then you are equally responsible to account for your own lineage.

You are racing to Wahabis because you have violated the Qur'an, by creating a sect and proudly accepting the very name (Shia) which the Qur'an condemns (when it comes to splitting the religion) but there is no reason to throw out names.

How are the Mu'tazilites Sunnis?  In fact, your own copy-paste says that Sunni Islam "saw the emergence of a group called the Mu'tazilites" which is not the same as Sunnis splitting into factions such as Mu'tazilites and non-Mu'tazilites.  What you should be worried about is the fact that your beliefs are deeply rooted in Mu'tazilite thought so we condemn you just as we condemned the Mu'tazilites.

"Every discussion with a Shi'i like yourself is a discussion on mu'tah.  If we are to account for the decision of village elders then you are equally responsible to account for your own lineage."

I don't have a clue what you're on about here. You're all over the place as usual. Shia like myself? If you've got that much hatred and grudge then why bother to engage. To humiliate and insult to toy and poke, does this give you some kind of satisfaction and comfort? Does it help you to feel big about yourself.

"You are racing to Wahabis because you have violated the Qur'an, by creating a sect and proudly accepting the very name (Shia) which the Qur'an condemns (when it comes to splitting the religion) but there is no reason to throw out names.:

I'm not racing towards or running from anything or anyone. Just asked you a simple question which either you're too hesitant and shy or scared and afraid to answer. I/we didn't violate the Qur'an and we didn't create our own sect.

The Muslim Ummah divided into sects. I've already spoke about the verse in detail and I don't like repeating myself time and time again. But you love to divert attention by mentioning over and over again. Because you've got nothing in you.

[iceman]

"How are the Mu'tazilites Sunnis?  In fact, your own copy-paste says that Sunni Islam "saw the emergence of a group called the Mu'tazilites" which is not the same as Sunnis splitting into factions such as Mu'tazilites and non-Mu'tazilites.  What you should be worried about is the fact that your beliefs are deeply rooted in Mu'tazilite thought so we condemn you just as we condemned the Mu'tazilites"

What do the Mu'tazilites call and see themselves as? That's what they are. You criticise and condemn us for not seeing the Zaidis and Ismailis as true Shia and on haq but you're doing the same here by not recognising the Mu'tazilites.

[muslim720]

I don't have a clue what you're on about here.

That should have been the only thing you should have said and walked away from repeated humiliation.

I'm not racing towards or running from anything or anyone. Just asked you a simple question which either you're too hesitant and shy or scared and afraid to answer.

You want to know if we consider Wahabis Sunnis.  Equally important to know is if Wahabis consider themselves Sunnis and they do.  Whether Wahabis are Sunnis or not is not as important as a key difference (between Wahabis and Shias) which, I'm sure, will not enter your thick head.  Wahabis, Deobandis and Barelvis, the three groups you have taken aim at thus far, all consider themselves Sunnis.  In other words, they refuse to be excluded from the majority community of mainstream Muslims. 

Shias, in contrast, very proudly walked away from the main body of Muslims and has indeed applied a condemned name (Shia) to themselves (when it comes to breaking religion into sects).   In fact, your condemnation goes beyond the Qur'an and we read in your own books your own Imams (ra) cursing your creedal ancestors.

I/we didn't violate the Qur'an and we didn't create our own sect.

Still in denial!

The Muslim Ummah divided into sects.

No it did not!  Only the Shias walked away from the unity of Muslims including on the day Imam Hassan (ra) made peace with Muawiyah, an event you alluded to not realizing that it backfires against you.  Then again, you have made that error many times now.  Who is keeping count, right?

You criticise and condemn us for not seeing the Zaidis and Ismailis as true Shia and on haq but you're doing the same here by not recognising the Mu'tazilites.

We condemn the Mu'tazilites for their flawed beliefs which go against the text.  We oppose you for condemning other Muslims for not believing in a concept which is actually absent from the text (i.e., Qur'an and Sunnah).

[GreatChineseFall]

The major difference between Sunni and Wahabi is the beliefs and rituals. Sunnis are in majority and almost 90% percent of Muslims around the world belong to Sunni sect whereas the members of Wahabi movement are located in Saudi Arab.

What do the Mu'tazilites call and see themselves as? That's what they are. You criticise and condemn us for not seeing the Zaidis and Ismailis as true Shia and on haq but you're doing the same here by not recognising the Mu'tazilites.

So the Wahabi’s are not Sunni’s, but the Mu’tazilites are? Mashaa’ Allah, very fascinating.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Al-Salamu Alaykum

I will respond in the coming days inshaAllah. I just want the brothers to know it is difficult to respond to two long posts, so bare with me and please don't respond until I responded to both of you.

Al-Salamu Alaykum to the brothers, I've been gone for a while. Do the brothers who were discussing with me still want to discuss, since this thread has seemingly taken a different turn? My PM's are open if you want, I prefer it there anyway.