Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?

[iceman]

بارك الله فيك for admitting that all you did in that thread was give your opinion instead of providing Shi’a scholars or ahadeeth that support your “analysis.”  As far as answering my points and questions, I listed them to you post by post and even numbered them for you, and you didn't get past question 1.

Here you said this, but later on you say...

Did I give any reasons or didn't I?

I gave you the various versions and I asked you which one do you accept.  You never answered (and you won't).

I don't think it's a massive takfeer for 2 reasons.  1) The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم referred to them as being part of his Ummah, 2) I believe that the majority of Muslims will go to hell for a period of time; so even if I was to accept this hadeeth as authentic (which I don't), I would interpret this as being temporary instead of a massive takfeer like you are so inclined to believe.

In ALL places I try to be as inclusive as possible and avoid takfeer as much as possible.  You on the other hand...

1) I don't consider the modern day 12ers the same, nor do I consider them descendants of the early Shi'i community. 2) The modern day khawarij and and the 12ers have the same amount of Muslim blood their hands.  You can close your eyes and plug your ears all you want.

I'm glad you admit you "send takfeer", however, I don't make takfeer of any mainstream Muslim sect.  I consider you a Muslim and a believer no matter how hard you try to drag me down with you.  I don't make takfeer of you.

Refuting 12erism.  I don't think Farid, Hani, Hassan Shemrani or any of the people that run this site make takfeer of the 12ers.  The people that do make takfeer of you I disassociate from and consider them even more misguided than the 12ers.

I can't help but literally lol here.  Look what I said...

I literally said I reject it, a long with all the other obviously made up versions of the hadeeth.  Come on akhi, stop being so emotional and defensive and try to understand what is being said to you.

What did he صلى الله عليه وسلم say?  Do you have an authentic chain for it?  What proof do you have that you today are the right Shi'a, and not say the Zaydis?  How do you its the Usoolis not the akhbaris?  How do you know its the Pro-WF and not the anti-WF?  You have SO much to answer for before you can even claim to have any right over Ali رضي الله عنه; a person whose biography, teachings and overall worldview was recorded by the Sunnis; not the 12ers.  Even Nahj al-Balagha is a book which is primarily sourced from Sunni sources.

P.S.  I am disappointed that instead of learning to write صلى الله عليه وسلم after the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's name, you just decided to not send salutations upon him at all.

So you are unable to provide any differences in aqeedah?

Umm... what happened to our discussion about Imamah being Usool ad-Deen or Madhhab (which according to you is the same word as deen, do you still believe that?) and the 73 sects hadeeth?  You are just all over the place like usual.

The problem with your mentality is you exclude everyone who you disagree with and say they are not "real" Shi'as.  That's like me saying only the Hanbalis are "real" Sunnis.  If I was to do that, then the level of disagreement between them would be a fraction in comparison to the differences between your maraaji'3.  So, until you can tell me why the Akhbaris, the Shirazis, and the non-WFers aren't "real" Shi'is, let alone Zaydis, Ismailis and thousands of Shi'i groups that have existed throughout history, then your claim will just be that, a claim that is bigger criticism of Shi'ism than any other group in Islam.

But that's what we are here to discuss and which I wish you would've discussed instead of that "analysis."  What did the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم say?  Why do you accept the hadeeth despite it being narrated by Abu Hurayrah, Mu'awiyah with a bunch of Nasibis in the chain?  Which version of the hadeeth do you accept and why?  What was your methodology?  Did you look at the chains?  I guarantee you will not answer, just like the Mut'ah thread.

I didn't give you my opinion so admitting is out of the question. Where do you get your information from. When and where did I give you my opinion? You asked for something and I gave you something even more better, solid, weighty and worthy in return and that is Rasullalah. The Mutah thread is all there to be seen, read and witnessed. And my performance in the form of contribution is clear to be seen. If something is there right in front of you to be seen but you close your eyes or look away and say, "well I can't see anything or there's nothing there" then what do you expect me to say or do? I know losing an argument or facing defeat is painful or hurtful for some because that's how they take it, but it doesn't have to be that way. Read the thread with open eyes and full attention and you will see I answered all your questions, commented on all your points and addressed all your queries

Just to kick start your memory why did the Prophet make Mutah permissible, what was the reason and purpose? And after it was made permissible how was it practiced during the Prophet's time? Was it due to exceptional circumstances or was there some other reason and purpose? Then why was it all of a sudden prohibited, what was the reason and purpose? Why is it so hard and hurtful, so difficult and painful for any of you to discuss this with me? Huh? What seems to be the problem? Loss/defeat? Huh? Come on, you're not that weak like some narrations and hadiths you label, are you guys?

You did give me various versions and I questioned you on those various versions but you didn't bother to respond, like you disregard and or ignore most points and only answer and focus on the ones that suit you. So you don't think it's a massive takfeer, ok. What, do you categorise takfeer? It seems like you do. Let me give you this, what is the meaning and definition of takfeer and why and how do you categorise it? This is the kind of discussion I like and want that is educational as well as informative, which my dear brothers always avoid and run from. I don't want it to get too much for you which you can't handle, so lets address this and then I will comment on your other points and address your other concerns and worries.

[muslim720]

It's not about me putting effort in but about you saying something and pointing it out then not backing it up and explaining it. This is exactly what you expect from me but don't do yourself.

Sort of reminds me of the time when you made a comment that both sides had "old and outdated arguments" and then it came to backfire against you. 

You, as I have highlighted, said, "you saying something and pointing it out then not backing it up and explaining it".  Twice you made mention of what the Prophet (saw) said to Imam Ali (ra) regarding his Shias.  Whatever you shared, at best, was a paraphrase of an alleged hadith.  Where is it?

How, in the name of Allah (swt), can you expect me to give you a ruling on a narration you have not shared or given reference to?

However, as is our habit, to one-up you, here is the oft-quoted weak narration:
The messenger of allah (Peace be upon him & his progeny) said to Ali: "Glad tiding O Ali! Verily you and your companions and your Shia (followers) will be in Paradise."

Sunni references:
Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p655
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p329
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v12, p289
al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani
Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v10, pp 21-22
al-Darqunti, who said this tradition has been transmitted via numerous authorities.
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p247

And they are all weak.  Please read: https://gift2shias.com/2009/10/29/narration-%E2%80%9Cyou-and-your-shias-in-heaven%E2%80%9D/

Secondly why do you consider them weak, what is the reason and purpose? How do you categorise hadiths/narrations, what's the method and procedure?

Hopefully the link I provided has answered why it is considered weak.  As for how and our procedure, we do not place the cart in front of the horse like how Shia keyboard scholars place their logic above their own authentic, affirmed by their own standard, hadiths.

[muslim720]

@Iceman

As for the narration which says that "You and your Shias are the best of creation", please read the refutation here:
http://www.sjiieten-ontmaskerd.nl/AhlelBayt.com/www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/hadith/shias-best-of-creation.html

And let me complete the series by providing refutation for the following narration: "Whoever died and in his soul was hate towards Ali, died like a Jew or Christian."
http://www.sjiieten-ontmaskerd.nl/AhlelBayt.com/www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/hadith/hadith-hatred.html

[iceman]

Sort of reminds me of the time when you made a comment that both sides had "old and outdated arguments" and then it came to backfire against you. 

You, as I have highlighted, said, "you saying something and pointing it out then not backing it up and explaining it".  Twice you made mention of what the Prophet (saw) said to Imam Ali (ra) regarding his Shias.  Whatever you shared, at best, was a paraphrase of an alleged hadith.  Where is it?

How, in the name of Allah (swt), can you expect me to give you a ruling on a narration you have not shared or given reference to?

However, as is our habit, to one-up you, here is the oft-quoted weak narration:
The messenger of allah (Peace be upon him & his progeny) said to Ali: "Glad tiding O Ali! Verily you and your companions and your Shia (followers) will be in Paradise."

Sunni references:
Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p655
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p329
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v12, p289
al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani
Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v10, pp 21-22
al-Darqunti, who said this tradition has been transmitted via numerous authorities.
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p247

And they are all weak.  Please read: https://gift2shias.com/2009/10/29/narration-%E2%80%9Cyou-and-your-shias-in-heaven%E2%80%9D/


Hopefully the link I provided has answered why it is considered weak.  As for how and our procedure, we do not place the cart in front of the horse like how Shia keyboard scholars place their logic above their own authentic, affirmed by their own standard, hadiths.

I don't know why it reminds you of such and how has it backfired and in what way? See what I mean, you say something then don't or can't explain it. The points I make and put forward you don't comment on and the questions raised and asked you don't or can't answer but you mention and comment on silly things just to show yourself and gain weight.

[iceman]

Why is it that you avoid an academic discussion, a discussion based on sense and logic backed by knowledge and information. Answer all my questions, comment on all the points made and address all queries and concerns. Can you do that?

[iceman]

Strength and weakness, what and which is considered strong or weak relating to hadiths and or narrations, what is your method and procedure that you believe and follow? How do you categorise or come to the conclusion?

[muslim720]

I don't know why it reminds you of such and how has it backfired and in what way?

Because, you see, in a haste, you declared my discussion at the Shia mosque as replete with "old and outdated arguments".  Honestly, you unintentionally passed a judgment (which I agree with) on your own madhhab; that it (Shia Islam) is full of "old and outdated arguments".  Hence, it was a comment you made which backfired against you.  Then you made a remark saying the Prophet (saw) said such and such regarding Imam Ali (ra) and his Shia.  Again, it backfired, as I have proven with evidence.

See what I mean, you say something then don't or can't explain it. The points I make and put forward you don't comment on and the questions raised and asked you don't or can't answer but you mention and comment on silly things just to show yourself and gain weight.

I actually want to lose weight and insha'Allah, bi idhnillah, if circumstances permit, fight in an amateur bout at 130 - 132 pounds.  However, to address your point, you've had nothing but questions.  Notice your next two responses, which I will consolidate and respond to in one post, are full of question marks.

Why is it that you avoid an academic discussion, a discussion based on sense and logic backed by knowledge and information. Answer all my questions, comment on all the points made and address all queries and concerns. Can you do that?

I am the one to "avoid an academic discussion" says the one who did not even support his claim with any reference.  And when I refuted you on it, by including academic rulings of the scholars (on those narrations), you dare say to me that I am the one to "avoid an academic discussion"!

By the way, I've been to enough Shia mosques, sat through enough Shia lectures highlighting the genius of this person and that person who refuted the opposition with "one question only".  The refuting-by-posing-questions tactic works in your inner circles, with all due respect, but it fails in reality.  And your questions, much like the questions posed in the stories narrated during your lectures, are laughable.  Why do you want my opinion or take on the hadiths when I've given you the academic response?  Except you think your logic would somehow make up for your blunder of quoting a weak narration without referencing it.  You wish, brother man!

Strength and weakness, what and which is considered strong or weak relating to hadiths and or narrations, what is your method and procedure that you believe and follow? How do you categorise or come to the conclusion?

I do not have a method; our scholars do.  And their reasonings (for weakening those hadiths) are quite clear.  Please read them instead of engaging me in a discussion.  Your logic gymnastics won't fly with me; I'll ground it before it even takes off.  And I mean that with all humility

[iceman]

Because, you see, in a haste, you declared my discussion at the Shia mosque as replete with "old and outdated arguments".  Honestly, you unintentionally passed a judgment (which I agree with) on your own madhhab; that it (Shia Islam) is full of "old and outdated arguments".  Hence, it was a comment you made which backfired against you.  Then you made a remark saying the Prophet (saw) said such and such regarding Imam Ali (ra) and his Shia.  Again, it backfired, as I have proven with evidence.

I actually want to lose weight and insha'Allah, bi idhnillah, if circumstances permit, fight in an amateur bout at 130 - 132 pounds.  However, to address your point, you've had nothing but questions.  Notice your next two responses, which I will consolidate and respond to in one post, are full of question marks.

I am the one to "avoid an academic discussion" says the one who did not even support his claim with any reference.  And when I refuted you on it, by including academic rulings of the scholars (on those narrations), you dare say to me that I am the one to "avoid an academic discussion"!

By the way, I've been to enough Shia mosques, sat through enough Shia lectures highlighting the genius of this person and that person who refuted the opposition with "one question only".  The refuting-by-posing-questions tactic works in your inner circles, with all due respect, but it fails in reality.  And your questions, much like the questions posed in the stories narrated during your lectures, are laughable.  Why do you want my opinion or take on the hadiths when I've given you the academic response?  Except you think your logic would somehow make up for your blunder of quoting a weak narration without referencing it.  You wish, brother man!

I do not have a method; our scholars do.  And their reasonings (for weakening those hadiths) are quite clear.  Please read them instead of engaging me in a discussion.  Your logic gymnastics won't fly with me; I'll ground it before it even takes off.  And I mean that with all humility

Your post is full of personal taunts and emotional fury, nothing academic and useful. Still don't want to answer and engage hey. Looking at your attitude and behaviour and how you get personal and emotional, boxing doesn't solve those kind of problems nor does it offer such solutions.

[iceman]

Attitude and behaviour tells a lot about a person. When it comes to boxing you have to be level headed, a composed individual. Either change your attitude and behaviour or look for another profession/hobby. Words of advice, that's all.

[muslim720]

Your post is full of personal taunts and emotional fury, nothing academic and useful.

You cannot use our narrations against us while discrediting how our scholars grade them.  I am amused that you do not see what is in front of you (refutation of the narration) yet you can see what is absent (personal taunts and emotional fury).

Still don't want to answer and engage hey.

It is "eh", not "hey".  In North America, Canada specifically, they say, "still don't want to answer and engage, eh?"

Looking at your attitude and behaviour and how you get personal and emotional, boxing doesn't solve those kind of problems nor does it offer such solutions.

You accused me of wanting to "gain weight"; that is, in fact, what I am working against, not for.  If you make obscure statements and quote ambiguous "hadiths" without reference, I will take the liberty to define, and respond to, the word "weight" as I please.

Attitude and behaviour tells a lot about a person. When it comes to boxing you have to be level headed, a composed individual. Either change your attitude and behaviour or look for another profession/hobby. Words of advice, that's all.

Thank you.

My advice to you is to not respond to my reply.  You alluded to a wishful notion which relies on a series of fabricated hadiths.  I presented almost every narration in line with that notion and shared the refutations for them.  Now, you need to find flaws in those refutations to offer counter-rebuttal or bring your next point or simply drop the discussion.

Three options you have:
1.  Offer counter-rebuttal for those refutations.
2.  Move on to your next point, if you have one (in case I've missed some hadith), which corroborates your wishful notion.
3.  Stop discussing with me by weaving yarns of interwoven statements which is anything but academic.

[iceman]

You cannot use our narrations against us while discrediting how our scholars grade them.  I am amused that you do not see what is in front of you (refutation of the narration) yet you can see what is absent (personal taunts and emotional fury).

It is "eh", not "hey".  In North America, Canada specifically, they say, "still don't want to answer and engage, eh?"

You accused me of wanting to "gain weight"; that is, in fact, what I am working against, not for.  If you make obscure statements and quote ambiguous "hadiths" without reference, I will take the liberty to define, and respond to, the word "weight" as I please.

Thank you.

My advice to you is to not respond to my reply.  You alluded to a wishful notion which relies on a series of fabricated hadiths.  I presented almost every narration in line with that notion and shared the refutations for them.  Now, you need to find flaws in those refutations to offer counter-rebuttal or bring your next point or simply drop the discussion.

Three options you have:
1.  Offer counter-rebuttal for those refutations.
2.  Move on to your next point, if you have one (in case I've missed some hadith), which corroborates your wishful notion.
3.  Stop discussing with me by weaving yarns of interwoven statements which is anything but academic.

I'm not using you're narrations against you. What is wrong with you, why do you see everything as us, you, them etc. No one is against anyone. we're all Muslims so grow up and get out of this trauma. I'm not an Alien but a human and a Muslim just like you. I see what is clear and in front of me and that is an emotional character who sees and views Shias as different species. The grudge behind the personal taunts and emotional out bursts can clearly be seen. Try having a conversation without speaking down. It's 'eh' not 'hey', North America, especially Canada etc, thanks for the info but I'm not from North America. You have American language as well as Canadian, Australian and English. Different countries but only some difference in the way they speak but can clearly understand each other. Try and learn about others. There is a world beyond your borders and there are other Muslims apart from Sunis. I will respond to your other points later.

[muslim720]

I'm not using you're narrations against you.

Then try explaining your following two statements, would you? 

"What did the Prophet say about Ali and his Shia reaching Hauz e Qausar, you forgot to mention that. Ali and his Shia will be successful. Notice the word SHIA."

"And I will give you something in return, the Prophet said Ali and his Shia will be successful."

What is wrong with you, why do you see everything as us, you, them etc. No one is against anyone. we're all Muslims so grow up and get out of this trauma.

We see everything as us against you?  The pot calling the kettle black!  Every Shia child is raised with details of Saqifa, Fadak, etc, all portrayed as injustices visited upon the Ahlul Bayt (ra).  As for trauma, wallaahi I'm not making this up.  In Muharram of 2012, if I'm not mistaken, the local fire department closed down and sealed one of the local Shia mosques.  I was not there but I heard two different stories from those who had family members present there that day.

1.  The fire department sealed the place due to over-crowding (this mosque needs massive renovation work and I've always provided my contact information so that they can call upon me for volunteer work).

2.  It was due to the fact that a man fell unconscious because of all the sustained and accumulated trauma (head beating and what not).

I personally believe that it happened in this order.  A brother lost consciousness due to all the trauma of self-flagellation and when 911 was called, the fire department responded along with the paramedics (as is the norm).  The fire department then noticed the over-crowding and it sealed the entire place; there was yellow police tape which read "POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS" all over the mosque for months.

I'm not an Alien but a human and a Muslim just like you.

No doubt!

I see what is clear and in front of me and that is an emotional character who sees and views Shias as different species. The grudge behind the personal taunts and emotional out bursts can clearly be seen.

This "emotional character" who supposedly sees you as an "alien" has no problems praying with you, in front of you, or behind you.  Turn your ad hominem a few notches down.  I've a far more clear conscience toward Shias than you will ever achieve toward Sunnis.

Try having a conversation without speaking down.

I will but your point has been refuted; we can have a conversation in another topic, if you initiate one.

It's 'eh' not 'hey', North America, especially Canada etc, thanks for the info but I'm not from North America.

As far as I know, even in Europe, the expression is "eh".  If I'm not mistaken, only South Africans spell it as "hey".  Wikipedia comes in handy at times.

Try and learn about others. There is a world beyond your borders and there are other Muslims apart from Sunis. I will respond to your other points later.

When was the last time you drove more than 30 miles (one way) to visit a Sunni mosque for, let's say, Taraweeh?  I do that many times over every Muharram to learn about your madhhab.  As for the world beyond our borders, I'm an Afghan, I lived in India for 11 years and have been living in the US for more than 17 years now.  I can read, write and speak nearly 5 languages and I took two additional languages in high school (unfortunately, Arabic isn't one of them).  I am not showing off; you wanted a conversation so there you have it, some info about me.

[iceman]

Then try explaining your following two statements, would you? 

"What did the Prophet say about Ali and his Shia reaching Hauz e Qausar, you forgot to mention that. Ali and his Shia will be successful. Notice the word SHIA."

"And I will give you something in return, the Prophet said Ali and his Shia will be successful."

We see everything as us against you?  The pot calling the kettle black!  Every Shia child is raised with details of Saqifa, Fadak, etc, all portrayed as injustices visited upon the Ahlul Bayt (ra).  As for trauma, wallaahi I'm not making this up.  In Muharram of 2012, if I'm not mistaken, the local fire department closed down and sealed one of the local Shia mosques.  I was not there but I heard two different stories from those who had family members present there that day.

1.  The fire department sealed the place due to over-crowding (this mosque needs massive renovation work and I've always provided my contact information so that they can call upon me for volunteer work).

2.  It was due to the fact that a man fell unconscious because of all the sustained and accumulated trauma (head beating and what not).

I personally believe that it happened in this order.  A brother lost consciousness due to all the trauma of self-flagellation and when 911 was called, the fire department responded along with the paramedics (as is the norm).  The fire department then noticed the over-crowding and it sealed the entire place; there was yellow police tape which read "POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS" all over the mosque for months.

No doubt!

This "emotional character" who supposedly sees you as an "alien" has no problems praying with you, in front of you, or behind you.  Turn your ad hominem a few notches down.  I've a far more clear conscience toward Shias than you will ever achieve toward Sunnis.

I will but your point has been refuted; we can have a conversation in another topic, if you initiate one.

As far as I know, even in Europe, the expression is "eh".  If I'm not mistaken, only South Africans spell it as "hey".  Wikipedia comes in handy at times.

When was the last time you drove more than 30 miles (one way) to visit a Sunni mosque for, let's say, Taraweeh?  I do that many times over every Muharram to learn about your madhhab.  As for the world beyond our borders, I'm an Afghan, I lived in India for 11 years and have been living in the US for more than 17 years now.  I can read, write and speak nearly 5 languages and I took two additional languages in high school (unfortunately, Arabic isn't one of them).  I am not showing off; you wanted a conversation so there you have it, some info about me.

Thanks for the Info, much appreciated. You want me to explain two statements that I made, would you mind telling me where I made these statements and responding to which post or matter/issue?

[muslim720]

Thanks for the Info, much appreciated. You want me to explain two statements that I made, would you mind telling me where I made these statements and responding to which post or matter/issue?

Brother, are you playing dumb to evade embarrassment?  Because playing dumb - by requesting what you've requested - is further embarrassment.

You made those two statements on page 5 of this very discussion topic; REPLY 91.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-usul-al-din-or-usul-al-mathab/80/

[iceman]

Brother, are you playing dumb to evade embarrassment?  Because playing dumb - by requesting what you've requested - is further embarrassment.

You made those two statements on page 5 of this very discussion topic; REPLY 91.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-usul-al-din-or-usul-al-mathab/80/

Try and keep your personal taunts and emotional opinions to yourself. Now you know what I meant by personal taunts. I made the two statements on page 6 of this very discussion topic, you could have said this at the beginning without the drama. Try and get a grip on yourself. You're on a forum having a discussion, not in the gym sparring.

[iceman]

1. Sawaiq al Muhriqah page 519 Fadail Ahl’ul bayt 2. Kanzul Dhaqaiq page 149, the letter Sheen 3. Nur al Absar page 78 Fadail Manaqib ‘Ali 4. Kafaya al Muttalib fee manaqib ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib page 246 5. Arjahu ‘l Matalib page 80, Chapter 2 6. Tadhkirathul Khawwas al Ummah Chapter 2 page 31 7. Manaqib Khawarzmi Part 9 page 62 8. Faraid al Simtayn Chapter 31 page 152 9. Tareekh Madeena wa Dimishiq page 442 10. Manaqib Ibn Maghazali page 293-284 11. Maqathil Husayn page 3 12. Fusl al Muhimma page 123 13. Ahsaf al Ragibeen page 158 14. Dhukhayir al Uqba page 90 15. Tafseer Fathul Qadeer Volume 5 page 424 16. Tafseer Durre Manthur Volume 6 page 379 (Cairo edition) 17. Tafseer Tabari Chapter 3, Surah al Bayana 18. Kanz al Ummal Volume 6 page 403

It is in praise of the Shi’a of Ali that Allah (swt) sent down the following revelation:

“Those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of the creatures. Their reward from their Lord shall be everlasting gardens, below which flow rivers, they will abide there forever. Well pleased is God with them and they are well pleased with Him” Quran 98:7

Muhammad bin Ali narrates in Tafsir ibne Jarir, Volume 33 page 146 (Cairo edition) that the Prophet (saww) said:

“The best of creations are you Ali and your Shi’as”.

Tafseer Durre Manthur

Jalaladin Suyuti, (849 – 911 AH) is one of the highest ranking Sunni scholars of all times. In his commentary of this verse, he records through 3 Isnaad (chains) of narrators that the Prophet (saww) told his companions that the verse referred to Ali and his Shia. Hadhrath Ali narrates in Tafsir Durre Mansur, Volume 6 page 379 (Cairo edition) “Have you not heard this verse:

“Their reward from their Lord shall be everlasting gardens, below which flow rivers, they will abide there forever”? This verse refers to you and your Shi’a, I promise you that I will meet you at the Fountain of Kawthur”.

[iceman]

It is written in the Sahih of Bukhari that when some of the companions of the Prophet (P.B.U.H) will be removed from the Kausar, the Prophet (P.B.U.H) will say, "o my Lord! these are my companions Allah will reply, "You do not know what they did after you.

They spread false traditions and made changes in religion (Bid-at) This tradition is also quoted in the ninth volume of the saheeh of Muslim.

[iceman]

The first that's going to come out of you is absolute and complete rejection of the above. It's obvious, you have a mindset and that's how you see and take things. But please do give me a reason of why you reject the above, if you can and are up to it.

[muslim720]

Try and keep your personal taunts and emotional opinions to yourself. Now you know what I meant by personal taunts. I made the two statements on page 6 of this very discussion topic, you could have said this at the beginning without the drama. Try and get a grip on yourself. You're on a forum having a discussion, not in the gym sparring.

I know I'm not in the gym sparring; you wouldn't have lasted this long on sheer lack of endurance, let alone skills.  And it is not a taunt to say that you look dumb by stretching this discussion for no reason.  You look dumb when you quote weak narrations; you look dumber when you don't remember what you said yourself.

1. Sawaiq al Muhriqah page 519 Fadail Ahl’ul bayt 2. Kanzul Dhaqaiq page 149, the letter Sheen 3. Nur al Absar page 78 Fadail Manaqib ‘Ali 4. Kafaya al Muttalib fee manaqib ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib page 246 5. Arjahu ‘l Matalib page 80, Chapter 2 6. Tadhkirathul Khawwas al Ummah Chapter 2 page 31 7. Manaqib Khawarzmi Part 9 page 62 8. Faraid al Simtayn Chapter 31 page 152 9. Tareekh Madeena wa Dimishiq page 442 10. Manaqib Ibn Maghazali page 293-284 11. Maqathil Husayn page 3 12. Fusl al Muhimma page 123 13. Ahsaf al Ragibeen page 158 14. Dhukhayir al Uqba page 90 15. Tafseer Fathul Qadeer Volume 5 page 424 16. Tafseer Durre Manthur Volume 6 page 379 (Cairo edition) 17. Tafseer Tabari Chapter 3, Surah al Bayana 18. Kanz al Ummal Volume 6 page 403

Kanz ul Ummal, Durre Manthur, the usual suspects or Shia favorites.  Bouncing the same weak hadith off various sources does not make it authentic.  Authenticity, in case you did not know, does not depend on how many books or works quote a certain narration.

On your list, had you paid attention before blindly copy-pasting it and if you had read the refutation, you would have seen the following common name "Tafseer at-Tabari" and it should have been obvious to you that it is talking about the same weak narration appearing in many works.  In fact, it clearly states the Qur'anic verse first, the same one you've quoted, "Those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of the creatures." (Qur'an 98:7)

It is written in the Sahih of Bukhari that when some of the companions of the Prophet (P.B.U.H) will be removed from the Kausar, the Prophet (P.B.U.H) will say, "o my Lord! these are my companions Allah will reply, "You do not know what they did after you.

Who said the Sahaba (ra) were infallible?  It is not even remotely saying what you want it to say, let alone regarding the people you want to ascribe it to.

They spread false traditions and made changes in religion (Bid-at) This tradition is also quoted in the ninth volume of the saheeh of Muslim.

Equally dangerous as spreading false traditions is giving dichotomous, opposing answers to the same question.  And for it to be done by an "infallible", with the excuse of preserving the religion goes beyond bid'a and making mockery of religion and the masaakeen that follow such beliefs.

The first that's going to come out of you is absolute and complete rejection of the above. It's obvious, you have a mindset and that's how you see and take things. But please do give me a reason of why you reject the above, if you can and are up to it.

"It's obvious, you have a mindset....", stop Dr. Phil!  You do not care to read the scholarly refutation to your nonsense and you want me to give you my reason and you wish to test me if I can or if I'm "up to it".  What we are not up to is that we do not build our aqaaid on weak traditions, for example, adding the 3rd shahada in Adhan which, at best, has weak foundation according to your own madhhab.

[muslim720]

Jalaladin Suyuti, (849 – 911 AH) is one of the highest ranking Sunni scholars of all times. In his commentary of this verse, he records through 3 Isnaad (chains) of narrators that the Prophet (saww) told his companions that the verse referred to Ali and his Shia. Hadhrath Ali narrates in Tafsir Durre Mansur, Volume 6 page 379 (Cairo edition) “Have you not heard this verse:

“Their reward from their Lord shall be everlasting gardens, below which flow rivers, they will abide there forever”? This verse refers to you and your Shi’a, I promise you that I will meet you at the Fountain of Kawthur”.

As brother Adnan Rashid, may Allah (swt) bless him infinitely, informed Bayat al Ghadeer, Imam Suyuti (rah) was known as "hatib ul lail" (one who collects wood at night) among scholars because he used to collect everything in his books, sahih, mawdhu, you name it.  Finding a narration in any of his books, in other words, a narration being included in any of Imam Suyuti's books does not guarantee its' authenticity.  Now you understand why we have included "Sahih" in the name of the works compiled by Imam Bukhari (ra) and Imam Muslim (ra).