Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?

[muslim720]

Muslim 720, I'm not going to say that I'm going to expose your lie since I don't speak as such, but what I'm going to say is that I will clear your misunderstanding and the misconception you have and made.

I will expose your lie.  I have no problems saying, nor doing, it.  I have no issues with Shias except when they come to misrepresent our texts to cast doubts in the hearts and minds of innocent Muslims.  From my personal experience, in Muharram 2015, I was astonished to hear this big-shot lecturer - his lecture broadcasted live over the internet because the mosque could not afford to pay him $10,000 a night (as admitted by the imam of the mosque) - say that he would speak about the virtues of Umm Salamah (ra).  That was the topic he had chosen to speak about; the virtues of Umm Salamah (ra) which I thought was quite refreshing.  He, unfortunately, spent half of the time, if not more, to malign Aisha (ra) and Hafsa (ra).  This is a disease among Shias, I'm sorry to say.  Nothing they say (at least in their eyes) can stand on its own without them attacking someone else or some other parallel concept.  Till date, I am not sure if they do this out of habit (upbringing) or helplessness (to make their own stance weightier).

The narations/hadith which you have said is weak and rejected by all the Sunni Scholars is not true. And I will clear this to start off with.

Your problem goes beyond the authenticity of narrations.  Your references (works of Imam Suyuti, for example), authors (Al-Qunduzi Al-Hanafi and Al-Zamakhshari) and positions (misrepresenting Ibn Hajar Al-Haythami) are all messed up.  Which one will you address first, if at all?

[Abu Muhammad]

Suddenly he becomes Mr. "Sunni reference", an old and outdated tactic used by Twelvers against ignorant Sunnis decades ago. Dude, Sunni/Twelvers discourses have move on to a very much deeper discussions than that and you are still "scratching the surface". Laughable.

Muslim 720, I'm not going to say that I'm going to expose your lie since I don't speak as such, but what I'm going to say is that I will clear your misunderstanding and the misconception you have and made.

The narations/hadith which you have said is weak and rejected by all the Sunni Scholars is not true. And I will clear this to start off with.

A guy who doesn't have a proper understanding of how Sunni's science of hadiths work wants to clear up the issue? I can't wait to see that.

[iceman]

Suddenly he becomes Mr. "Sunni reference", an old and outdated tactic used by Twelvers against ignorant Sunnis decades ago. Dude, Sunni/Twelvers discourses have move on to a very much deeper discussions than that and you are still "scratching the surface". Laughable.

A guy who doesn't have a proper understanding of how Sunni's science of hadiths work wants to clear up the issue? I can't wait to see that.

Never mind about me, you don't have a clue yourself about how it works. I asked a simple question of how and in what way do you categorise hadiths/narations, what method and procedure do you use and why and nobody responded. So look who's talking.

[Abu Muhammad]

Never mind about me, you don't have a clue yourself about how it works. I asked a simple question of how and in what way do you categorise hadiths/narations, what method and procedure do you use and why and nobody responded. So look who's talking.

For your info, this forum is not an online courses to teach you Sunni's Science of Hadiths. Go to a proper website if you want to learn them. It will save tons of other peoples' time in this forum.

When you bring in any hadith, it is upon you to prove that the hadith is authentic, not somebody else doing the job for you.

Simple to understand, right?

[muslim720]

When you bring in any hadith, it is upon you to prove that the hadith is authentic, not somebody else doing the job for you.

JazakAllah khair!  And if you don't know the science of hadith of the other side, accept their grading until you find out otherwise.  I don't know our science of hadith but those who know have deemed the hadith "Glad Tidings O Ali...." and all of its variations weak.

Years ago when I was on ShiaChat discussing Fadak, one authentic narration I presented from Al-Kafi said that women do not inherit land, they only can take from its yield (something to that effect).  A brother corrected me by saying that that particular hadith is in regards to wives inheriting from their husbands; they cannot inherit land from their husbands.  Without asking for textual proof to corroborate his claim, I accepted it.  Till date, I've never used that hadith again not because I had a plethora of other Qur'anic verses and narrations but also because there is such a thing as integrity.  I had only read that narration online without knowing anything contextual (the chapter heading for the hadith, the hadith before it, after it, nothing) so I conceded that and never used it again.

[iceman]

Gentlemen just a bit busy. Tied up with things. Will get back to you.

[iceman]

Brother Abu Muhammad thanks for replying. At last somebody ffinally answered. If I put something forward and you do not accept it for what ever reason, weak, unreliable, fabrIcated, exaggerated etc and I ask you why and how or what made you reach this decision or how and why did you get to this conclusion and if you can't answer then just say so. It's that simple and straightforward.

[iceman]

For your info, this forum is not an online courses to teach you Sunni's Science of Hadiths. Go to a proper website if you want to learn them. It will save tons of other peoples' time in this forum.

When you bring in any hadith, it is upon you to prove that the hadith is authentic, not somebody else doing the job for you.

Simple to understand, right?

I know but it ccertainly tells me how much you know and are aware of your own back yard. The amount of time you spend on finding faults and errors in orthers why not spend some of that time trying to learn and get to know about yourself.. If I bring something forward then you need to tell me how you see and view it. And when you do then it's your responsibility to tell me why, how and what for.

[muslim720]

If I put something forward and you do not accept it for what ever reason, weak, unreliable, fabrIcated, exaggerated etc and I ask you why and how or what made you reach this decision or how and why did you get to this conclusion

We, as I have said many times before, do not accept or reject hadiths as per our desires and "logic".  That is for you (my Shia brethren).  However, the refutation clearly mentioned the reason for the weakness of those narrations, as highlighted by our scholars.

and if you can't answer then just say so. It's that simple and straightforward.

Did we claim expertise in the science of hadith?  No!  I only shared what I know (regarding those hadiths) from those who know the science of hadith.  As for why they weakened those hadiths, READ THOSE ARTICLES!

[iceman]

Healthy discussion with a fraudulent person like yourself?  Despite furnishing proof against it, you have yet again latched on to the same weak narrations (already refuted) and added more weak ones to the list.

I shall gladly refute them your way.  Since you don't mind copy-paste as long as the material is confronted, here is what you need to account for. 

The Shias, according to your own books are:

(1) Bastards:

Yunus bin Dhibyaan, from Abu Abdullah Ja’far bin Muhammad [as] saying:

When Moses and Aaron [as] entered on Faroh, there were none among his advisors who was insane. If they were as such, they would have advised him to kill them both. So when they said: “Keep him and his brother in suspense (for a while) [26:36]”, they (actually) advised him with reconsideration and attentivness.  (The narrator) said: Abu Abdullah then placed his hand on his own chest and said: By Allah, such is our case too; no one comes to our support but he who is a bastard.

Shia Sources: al-Nu’man b. Muhammad al-Tameemy, Sharh al-Akhbaar vol.3, p. 8; Ali al-Tabarsi, Mishkaatul-Anwaar p.455; al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol.13, p.137; Muhammad b. Mas’oud al-Ayyashi, Tafseer al-Ayyashi, vol.2, p. 24; al-Fayd al-Kaashaani, Tafseer al-Saafi, vol.2, p. 225; al-Fayd al-Kaashaani, al-Tafseer al-Asfaa, vol. 1, p. 391; al-Huwaizy, Tafseer Noor al-Thaqalayn, vol. 2, p. 55)


(2) Hypocrites:

“Narrated Khalid bin Hammaad saying: narrated to me al-Hasan bin Talha (quoting) Muhammad bin Ismael, from Ali bin Yazeed al-Shaami saying: Abul-Hasan [as] said: Abu Abdullah [as] said: No verse revealed by Allah concerning hypocrites, but it perfectly fits those who are of Shi’a persuasion.”

[Reported by al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 65, p. 66; Rijaal al-Kash-shy, p. 254, Ali Akbar al-Ghifary, Studies in the Science of Dirayah, p. 155; Rijaal at-Tusi, vol.2, p. 589; Mu’jam Rijaal al-Kho’ei, vol.15, p.265]


“Narrated Muhammad saying: Narrated to us al-Hasan saying: Narrated to us Ibrahim saying: Ismael bin Aban al-Azdy informed us saying: Narrated to us Amr bin Shimr al-Ju’fy, from Jabir from Rafie’ bin Farqad al-Bajaliyy saying: I heard Ali bin Abi Talib [as] saying: See you not, O people of Kufah? By Allah I have stricken you with the stick that I hit the idiots with, but I don’t see you ceasing, and I have stricken you with the whips I use for penal codes, yet I don’t see you behaving. The only thing left is my sword, and I know what will straighten you up by will of Allah, but I don’t like to resort to that with you.  What’s amazing about you and the people of Syria, is that their leader disobeys Allah, yet they obey him, while your leader obeys Allah, but you disobey him. If I say to you go forth to meet your enemy, you say the cold prevents us. Do you think your enemy does not feel the cold you feel? But (the fact is) you resemble those people whom the Messenger [saw] said to them: “Go forth in the cause of Allah” and their leaders said: “Go not forth in the heat” and Allah said to His Prophet: “Say: The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat if only they can understand”

[Ibn Hilaal al-Thaqafi, al-Ghaaraat, p.27: see (Reference Here)]


(3) Filthiest people on the face of earth:

“Narrated to us Muhammad saying: Narrated to us al-Hasan saying: Narrated to us Ibrahim saying: – Also, narrated to us Ibrahim bin al-Mubarak from Bikr bin Issa saying: Narrated to us al-A’mash from Abdul-Malik bin Maysarah from ‘Amarah bin Omair saying: There was a friend of Ali [as] by the nick Abu Maryam, from the Madinah, whom upon hearing about the disbursement of people away from him, he came to him. When he [as] saw him, he said: (Is that you) Abu Maryam? He replied: yes.  He [as] said: What brought you up here? He said: I did not come to you for a need, but I actually think if you were put in charge of this Ummah, you would do good. He said: O Abu Maryam, I am whom you have known, but I was (unluckily) given the filthiest people on the face of earth; when I call on them, they don’t follow me, and when I go along with what they want, they disburse away from me”

[Ibid, p. 44]


(4) Liars Who Spit on Each Other’s Face:

“With that chain: from al-Wash-shaa’, from Ali bin al-Hasan, from Aban bin Taghlib saying: Abu Abdullah [as] said: How would you feel if the fight broke out between the two mosques, and knowledge withdrew back as the snake withdraw back to its hole, and the Shi’ites disunited (among themselves) and called each other liars, and spat on each other’s face? I said: May I be your ransom, there’s no good (to achieve) at that time. He said to me: All the good is then (and there) three times.”  [Reported by al-Kulainy, al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.340]


(5) Dishonest and of Bad Morals:

“From several of our Associates: from Sahl bin Ziyad and many others, from al-Hussain bin al-Hasan, all of them from Muhammad bin Awramah, from Muhammad bin Ali from Ismael bin Yasaar, from Othman bin Yousuf saying: I was informed by Abdullah bin Kaisaan from Abu Abdullah [as] saying:

I said to him: May I be your ransom, I am your servant Abdullah bin Kaisaan. He said: I know the linage, but I don’t know you. I said: I was born in the Mountain (area) and was raised in Persia. I got to deal with the people through doing business and other means. I (sometime) deal with a man and see that he enjoys a good appearance, good morals and abundant honesty. But when I investigate him, I find him to be of your enemies (A Sunni) . (On the other hand) I may deal with a man who has ill manners, dishonesty, and crookedness, and upon investigation, I find him to be of your supporters (A Shi’a) . How is that possible?

He said to me: O Ibn Kaisaan, Have you not known that Allah [swt] took a clay from paradise and a clay from hell and mixed them together and pulled this out of this, and that out of that? So whatever you may see of honesty, good morals and good appearance from those (Sunnis), is because of what have gotten into them from the clay of paradise, but eventually they go back to the clay they were made of. Likewise, whatever you may see of dishonesty, ill manners and crookedness from those (Shi’ites) is because of what have gotten to them from the clay of hell, but eventually the go back to the original (clay) they were made of.

[Reported by al-Kulainy, al-Kafi vol. 2, p. 4, al-Barqi, al-Mahaasin, vol. 1, p. 229]


(6) Filthy Mouthed & With Filthy Attitude:

“From him, from his father, from Abdullah bin al-Qaasim al-Hadhrami, from someone narrated to him the following saying:

I said to Abu Abdullah [as]: I may, on one hand, see a fellow man of our persuasion (Shi’a) with a filthy mouth, filthy attitude and of seldome honoring to appointments, which puts me into a great depression. On the other hand, I may see a man of our opponents (Sunni) with good appearance, good guidance, and who honors appointments, and that puts me into a great dipression.

He said: Do you know why is that? I said: No. He said: Allah has created both clays, He then rubbed them – and he placed both his hands (palms) one one another- then He splitted them and said: This (clay destined) to Paradise, and this (clay destined) to Hell and I do not care.

Therefore, the filth of mouth, profanity, bad attitude and dishonoring of appointments from your fellow man who is of your persuasion, is because of the traces caused by the filthy clay, but he (eventually) gets back to his (original) clay. As for the good guidance, good appearance, good attitude and honor of appointments from those opponents, is due to the traces caused by the (good) clay.

I said: you’ve relieved me, may Allah relieve you.”

[Reported by al-Barqi, al-Mahaasin, vol.1, p. 230, and by al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 5, p.251]


(7) Those Upon Whom Allah's Wrath Fell:

“Narrated Ali bin Ibrahim, from Muhammad bin Issa, from some of our associates, from Abul-Hasan Musa [as] saying:

Verily the Wrath of Allah befell on the Shi’ites, and He gave me the choice: Either myself or them, by Allah I shielded them by choosing myself.”

[Reported by al-Kulainy, al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.260]


( Shameless and Without Gheera:

“According to the narration of Ghiyaath bin Ibrahim, from Abu Abdullah [as], that Ali [as] said:

O People of Iraq, I was informed that your women date the men right on the streets, have you no shame? And he said: May Allah curse who has no jealousy.”

[Reported by al-Barqi, al-Mahaasin, vol.1, p.204-205; al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 79, p.115]



I will provide you the link for further reading because in the last bit, there are various narrations ascribed to the Imams (ra) which talk about characteristics that Shias do not have or things with which Shias aren't afflicted and one of them is being sodomized.  I wonder why the Imams (ra) took time to narrate that and exonerate Shias of being sodomized?  What sort of things were Shias involved in?

Happy reading: https://gift2shias.com/2009/11/04/qualities-of-the-shiites-as-reported-by-the-shiites/

PS - Just to show you the wonders of copy-pasting

You said, "from your own books", let me correct you that my book is the QORAN. Which I believe in and consider authentic. Apart from the Qoran no book is my book or our book.

The material you've put forward has got nothing to do with any bit or part of the material that I've put forward. You have not touched on anything. You have not dared to challenge and refute anything..

[muslim720]

You said, "from your own books", let me correct you that my book is the QORAN. Which I believe in and consider authentic. Apart from the Qoran no book is my book or our book.

Qur'an, not Qoran.  If there is no book for you other than the Qur'an, where do you get Imamah from?  Ghadeer Khum?  Rules of mutah (which you have been evading since way back when)?

The material you've put forward has got nothing to do with any bit or part of the material that I've put forward. You have not touched on anything. You have not dared to challenge and refute anything..

Your denial, more like helplessness in addressing - let alone refuting - my post # 135 on page 7 of this topic is more proof for your slimy and nonacademic approach to having discussions.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-usul-al-din-or-usul-al-mathab/135/

[iceman]

Qur'an, not Qoran.  If there is no book for you other than the Qur'an, where do you get Imamah from?  Ghadeer Khum?  Rules of mutah (which you have been evading since way back when)?

Your denial, more like helplessness in addressing - let alone refuting - my post # 135 on page 7 of this topic is more proof for your slimy and nonacademic approach to having discussions.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-usul-al-din-or-usul-al-mathab/135/

I'm free now. Ok, lets do this one of your posts at a time. "It's Qur'an, not Qoran", what are you, an English teacher and have you started online teaching? Shake off this attitude that you're Mr Right and the others always wrong. Accept others as they are. Where do I get Imamah, Ghadeer and rules of Mutah from? From Qoran and Sunah, from Allah and his Messenger. Where do you get yours from? The books you call and label authentic. And when we put something forward from the same books then that piece of information is considered weak and unreliable? What all of a sudden happens to the authenticity of those books when we put something forward from the same books? The authenticity goes flying straight out of the window. DOUBLE STANDARDS and HYPOCRITICAL STANCE I say.

I will not only challenge but refute every single thing you bring and put forward. I will comment on and address every bit and part of anything you post. I'm not weak or a coward that I will comment on only what suits me and shy away from the rest, LIKE YOU.

[muslim720]

"It's Qur'an, not Qoran", what are you, an English teacher and have you started online teaching?

Basic Arabic pronunciation.  You are like the "scholar resident" at one of the Shia mosques I visit.  On his Facebook, he always types, "Alhamdolellah" and "doa".

Where do I get Imamah, Ghadeer and rules of Mutah from? From Qoran and Sunah, from Allah and his Messenger.

Apparently, as you admitted yourself, you don't have a "my" book or "our" book, other than the "Qoran".  And the "Qoran" does not teach you all that I mentioned.

Where do you get yours from?

From Qur'an and Sunnah (documented in books that have been authenticated).

The books you call and label authentic.

Yes.

And when we put something forward from the same books then that piece of information is considered weak and unreliable?

In your winded post, full of shameful errors, show me one reference of Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim.

What all of a sudden happens to the authenticity of those books when we put something forward from the same books?

See the comment prior.

I will not only challenge but refute every single thing you bring and put forward. I will comment on and address every bit and part of anything you post. I'm not weak or a coward that I will comment on only what suits me and shy away from the rest, LIKE YOU.

Reminder in the form of a list (of things you must address):

1.  Weak reports (in your post).
2.  Non-Sunni scholars passed off as Sunnis (Al-Qunduzi Al-Hanafi and Al-Zamakhshari)
3.  Misrepresentation (you quoted Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah which is a book written to refute Shiaism to support Shiaism).
4.  Quoting lenient scholars without providing authenticity (you quoted Imam Suyuti's (rah) books when it is well-known that he would collect any report).

[iceman]

I will expose your lie.  I have no problems saying, nor doing, it.  I have no issues with Shias except when they come to misrepresent our texts to cast doubts in the hearts and minds of innocent Muslims.  From my personal experience, in Muharram 2015, I was astonished to hear this big-shot lecturer - his lecture broadcasted live over the internet because the mosque could not afford to pay him $10,000 a night (as admitted by the imam of the mosque) - say that he would speak about the virtues of Umm Salamah (ra).  That was the topic he had chosen to speak about; the virtues of Umm Salamah (ra) which I thought was quite refreshing.  He, unfortunately, spent half of the time, if not more, to malign Aisha (ra) and Hafsa (ra).  This is a disease among Shias, I'm sorry to say.  Nothing they say (at least in their eyes) can stand on its own without them attacking someone else or some other parallel concept.  Till date, I am not sure if they do this out of habit (upbringing) or helplessness (to make their own stance weightier).

Your problem goes beyond the authenticity of narrations.  Your references (works of Imam Suyuti, for example), authors (Al-Qunduzi Al-Hanafi and Al-Zamakhshari) and positions (misrepresenting Ibn Hajar Al-Haythami) are all messed up.  Which one will you address first, if at all?

I DON'T LIE, and if you think I do and this is what you accuse me of then at least be prepared to back it up, which you clearly and surely will not be man enough to do. I challenge you on that. Bring it on. You have no issues with Shias? Come on, pull the other one. Who do you think you are trying to fool here. ABSOLUTE RUBBISH and UTTER NONSENSE has been spread about Shias from day one from propagandists and hate mongers from day one. We do not misrepresent but it's the others who are spreading lies about us and who don't have a clue about themselves and how their system works to begin with. You question them and they can't even answer, for example;

Why did the Prophet make Mutah permissible? What was the reason and purpose for it? Why did he then Prohibit Mutah? what was the reason and purpose behind it? Just a very small example I've given you here. You don't have the faintest, do you? You don't have a damn clue. I can give you many examples as such. And you think you're some big shots. There is no disease among Shia, it's all in your head. What did he exactly say about Aisha and Hafsa that has stirred you up so badly that you're losing your senses? I told you that you're an emotional character. Get a grip on yourself. Put forward what he said and lets look into it. This is how it's done. If you feel that emotional then do something about it. and this is what you need to do and how it's done. Challenge what he said and refute it like bro Farid. Expose his lie.

[muslim720]

I DON'T LIE, and if you think I do and this is what you accuse me of then at least be prepared to back it up, which you clearly and surely will not be man enough to do.

Clearly, the more I type, and this is your tactic, the more it gives you straws to clutch on.  You lied!  At best, you copy-pasted a lie which is published on Al-Islam.org, ShiaPen, numerous Facebook pages, et cetera.

We do not misrepresent but it's the others who are spreading lies about us and who don't have a clue about themselves and how their system works to begin with.

We will stick with our discussion.  You copy-pasted a long article drenched in lies and half-truths.  I refuted you.  The ball is in your court.

There is no disease among Shia, it's all in your head. What did he exactly say about Aisha and Hafsa that has stirred you up so badly that you're losing your senses?

It is not what he said; it is "why" he said it that we must ponder.  If I were to talk about your virtues, I do not have to put down other brothers on this forum (for your virtues to be known or highlighted).  And it is the "why" that makes me believe there is a disease in the Shia community.

I told you that you're an emotional character. Get a grip on yourself.

...but you're the one typing in all-caps or is your "CapsLock" key broken?

Put forward what he said and lets look into it. This is how it's done. If you feel that emotional then do something about it. and this is what you need to do and how it's done. Challenge what he said and refute it like bro Farid. Expose his lie.

I have already exposed your lies.  Step up your game and offer a counter-rebuttal or an apology will do just fine.

[iceman]

Clearly, the more I type, and this is your tactic, the more it gives you straws to clutch on.  You lied!  At best, you copy-pasted a lie which is published on Al-Islam.org, ShiaPen, numerous Facebook pages, et cetera.

We will stick with our discussion.  You copy-pasted a long article drenched in lies and half-truths.  I refuted you.  The ball is in your court.

It is not what he said; it is "why" he said it that we must ponder.  If I were to talk about your virtues, I do not have to put down other brothers on this forum (for your virtues to be known or highlighted).  And it is the "why" that makes me believe there is a disease in the Shia community.

...but you're the one typing in all-caps or is your "CapsLock" key broken?

I have already exposed your lies.  Step up your game and offer a counter-rebuttal or an apology will do just fine.

You said;

"Clearly, the more I type, and this is your tactic, the more it gives you straws to clutch on.  You lied!  At best, you copy-pasted a lie which is published on Al-Islam.org, ShiaPen, numerous Facebook pages, et cetera."

How is it a lie? Just because you said so? You consider something weak or reject something then am I suppose to accept it at face value? Would you do the same? You consider it to be a LIE or what ever then ma brother BACK IT UP. Give me a breakdown, an absolute and clear explanation of why and how.

You said:

"We will stick with our discussion.  You copy-pasted a long article drenched in lies and half-truths.  I refuted you.  The ball is in your court."

LIES AND HALF-TRUTHS? Again HOW and in WHAT WAY? And you REFUTED IT, Really? WHERE? By all means bring the ball in my court but at least tell me where and when did you serve.

You talk about DISEASE within the Shia community but at least have the courage to explain and elaborate on it. DON'T BE AFRAID. You comment and then run off, you accuse and refuse when questioned.

My key is working fine, how about you? You have a lot of answering and explaining to do, so better get started. The clock is ticking.

What did the Scholar exactly say about Aisha and Hafsa? You mentioned it so lets hear it. Come on, bring it forward. Or is it just another made up story by you?

[iceman]

Healthy discussion with a fraudulent person like yourself?  Despite furnishing proof against it, you have yet again latched on to the same weak narrations (already refuted) and added more weak ones to the list.

I shall gladly refute them your way.  Since you don't mind copy-paste as long as the material is confronted, here is what you need to account for. 

The Shias, according to your own books are:

(1) Bastards:

Yunus bin Dhibyaan, from Abu Abdullah Ja’far bin Muhammad [as] saying:

When Moses and Aaron [as] entered on Faroh, there were none among his advisors who was insane. If they were as such, they would have advised him to kill them both. So when they said: “Keep him and his brother in suspense (for a while) [26:36]”, they (actually) advised him with reconsideration and attentivness.  (The narrator) said: Abu Abdullah then placed his hand on his own chest and said: By Allah, such is our case too; no one comes to our support but he who is a bastard.

Shia Sources: al-Nu’man b. Muhammad al-Tameemy, Sharh al-Akhbaar vol.3, p. 8; Ali al-Tabarsi, Mishkaatul-Anwaar p.455; al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol.13, p.137; Muhammad b. Mas’oud al-Ayyashi, Tafseer al-Ayyashi, vol.2, p. 24; al-Fayd al-Kaashaani, Tafseer al-Saafi, vol.2, p. 225; al-Fayd al-Kaashaani, al-Tafseer al-Asfaa, vol. 1, p. 391; al-Huwaizy, Tafseer Noor al-Thaqalayn, vol. 2, p. 55)


(2) Hypocrites:

“Narrated Khalid bin Hammaad saying: narrated to me al-Hasan bin Talha (quoting) Muhammad bin Ismael, from Ali bin Yazeed al-Shaami saying: Abul-Hasan [as] said: Abu Abdullah [as] said: No verse revealed by Allah concerning hypocrites, but it perfectly fits those who are of Shi’a persuasion.”

[Reported by al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 65, p. 66; Rijaal al-Kash-shy, p. 254, Ali Akbar al-Ghifary, Studies in the Science of Dirayah, p. 155; Rijaal at-Tusi, vol.2, p. 589; Mu’jam Rijaal al-Kho’ei, vol.15, p.265]


“Narrated Muhammad saying: Narrated to us al-Hasan saying: Narrated to us Ibrahim saying: Ismael bin Aban al-Azdy informed us saying: Narrated to us Amr bin Shimr al-Ju’fy, from Jabir from Rafie’ bin Farqad al-Bajaliyy saying: I heard Ali bin Abi Talib [as] saying: See you not, O people of Kufah? By Allah I have stricken you with the stick that I hit the idiots with, but I don’t see you ceasing, and I have stricken you with the whips I use for penal codes, yet I don’t see you behaving. The only thing left is my sword, and I know what will straighten you up by will of Allah, but I don’t like to resort to that with you.  What’s amazing about you and the people of Syria, is that their leader disobeys Allah, yet they obey him, while your leader obeys Allah, but you disobey him. If I say to you go forth to meet your enemy, you say the cold prevents us. Do you think your enemy does not feel the cold you feel? But (the fact is) you resemble those people whom the Messenger [saw] said to them: “Go forth in the cause of Allah” and their leaders said: “Go not forth in the heat” and Allah said to His Prophet: “Say: The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat if only they can understand”

[Ibn Hilaal al-Thaqafi, al-Ghaaraat, p.27: see (Reference Here)]


(3) Filthiest people on the face of earth:

“Narrated to us Muhammad saying: Narrated to us al-Hasan saying: Narrated to us Ibrahim saying: – Also, narrated to us Ibrahim bin al-Mubarak from Bikr bin Issa saying: Narrated to us al-A’mash from Abdul-Malik bin Maysarah from ‘Amarah bin Omair saying: There was a friend of Ali [as] by the nick Abu Maryam, from the Madinah, whom upon hearing about the disbursement of people away from him, he came to him. When he [as] saw him, he said: (Is that you) Abu Maryam? He replied: yes.  He [as] said: What brought you up here? He said: I did not come to you for a need, but I actually think if you were put in charge of this Ummah, you would do good. He said: O Abu Maryam, I am whom you have known, but I was (unluckily) given the filthiest people on the face of earth; when I call on them, they don’t follow me, and when I go along with what they want, they disburse away from me”

[Ibid, p. 44]


(4) Liars Who Spit on Each Other’s Face:

“With that chain: from al-Wash-shaa’, from Ali bin al-Hasan, from Aban bin Taghlib saying: Abu Abdullah [as] said: How would you feel if the fight broke out between the two mosques, and knowledge withdrew back as the snake withdraw back to its hole, and the Shi’ites disunited (among themselves) and called each other liars, and spat on each other’s face? I said: May I be your ransom, there’s no good (to achieve) at that time. He said to me: All the good is then (and there) three times.”  [Reported by al-Kulainy, al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.340]


(5) Dishonest and of Bad Morals:

“From several of our Associates: from Sahl bin Ziyad and many others, from al-Hussain bin al-Hasan, all of them from Muhammad bin Awramah, from Muhammad bin Ali from Ismael bin Yasaar, from Othman bin Yousuf saying: I was informed by Abdullah bin Kaisaan from Abu Abdullah [as] saying:

I said to him: May I be your ransom, I am your servant Abdullah bin Kaisaan. He said: I know the linage, but I don’t know you. I said: I was born in the Mountain (area) and was raised in Persia. I got to deal with the people through doing business and other means. I (sometime) deal with a man and see that he enjoys a good appearance, good morals and abundant honesty. But when I investigate him, I find him to be of your enemies (A Sunni) . (On the other hand) I may deal with a man who has ill manners, dishonesty, and crookedness, and upon investigation, I find him to be of your supporters (A Shi’a) . How is that possible?

He said to me: O Ibn Kaisaan, Have you not known that Allah [swt] took a clay from paradise and a clay from hell and mixed them together and pulled this out of this, and that out of that? So whatever you may see of honesty, good morals and good appearance from those (Sunnis), is because of what have gotten into them from the clay of paradise, but eventually they go back to the clay they were made of. Likewise, whatever you may see of dishonesty, ill manners and crookedness from those (Shi’ites) is because of what have gotten to them from the clay of hell, but eventually the go back to the original (clay) they were made of.

[Reported by al-Kulainy, al-Kafi vol. 2, p. 4, al-Barqi, al-Mahaasin, vol. 1, p. 229]


(6) Filthy Mouthed & With Filthy Attitude:

“From him, from his father, from Abdullah bin al-Qaasim al-Hadhrami, from someone narrated to him the following saying:

I said to Abu Abdullah [as]: I may, on one hand, see a fellow man of our persuasion (Shi’a) with a filthy mouth, filthy attitude and of seldome honoring to appointments, which puts me into a great depression. On the other hand, I may see a man of our opponents (Sunni) with good appearance, good guidance, and who honors appointments, and that puts me into a great dipression.

He said: Do you know why is that? I said: No. He said: Allah has created both clays, He then rubbed them – and he placed both his hands (palms) one one another- then He splitted them and said: This (clay destined) to Paradise, and this (clay destined) to Hell and I do not care.

Therefore, the filth of mouth, profanity, bad attitude and dishonoring of appointments from your fellow man who is of your persuasion, is because of the traces caused by the filthy clay, but he (eventually) gets back to his (original) clay. As for the good guidance, good appearance, good attitude and honor of appointments from those opponents, is due to the traces caused by the (good) clay.

I said: you’ve relieved me, may Allah relieve you.”

[Reported by al-Barqi, al-Mahaasin, vol.1, p. 230, and by al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 5, p.251]


(7) Those Upon Whom Allah's Wrath Fell:

“Narrated Ali bin Ibrahim, from Muhammad bin Issa, from some of our associates, from Abul-Hasan Musa [as] saying:

Verily the Wrath of Allah befell on the Shi’ites, and He gave me the choice: Either myself or them, by Allah I shielded them by choosing myself.”

[Reported by al-Kulainy, al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.260]


( Shameless and Without Gheera:

“According to the narration of Ghiyaath bin Ibrahim, from Abu Abdullah [as], that Ali [as] said:

O People of Iraq, I was informed that your women date the men right on the streets, have you no shame? And he said: May Allah curse who has no jealousy.”

[Reported by al-Barqi, al-Mahaasin, vol.1, p.204-205; al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 79, p.115]



I will provide you the link for further reading because in the last bit, there are various narrations ascribed to the Imams (ra) which talk about characteristics that Shias do not have or things with which Shias aren't afflicted and one of them is being sodomized.  I wonder why the Imams (ra) took time to narrate that and exonerate Shias of being sodomized?  What sort of things were Shias involved in?

Happy reading: https://gift2shias.com/2009/11/04/qualities-of-the-shiites-as-reported-by-the-shiites/

PS - Just to show you the wonders of copy-pasting

This material, if true, is only the thought, opinion and point of view of someone. Nothing from Qoran or Sunah, nothing from Allah or his Messenger. Now a book written by a Shia Scholar, be it Al Majlasi, Al Kulayni, Al Sadooq or who ever, what ever is in that book does not mean that it is the view of the author/writer. You mentioned about a Sunni Scholar being known as a wood collector. What does that mean? You know what it means. Both, Sunni as well as Shia Scholars, have added/mentioned/collected things in their books. Some they hold as their view others they don't. But they have mentioned it in their book. You have ONE RULE for yourself and ANOTHER for us. Come on. Is this what you give me in response? Is that all you have and got? Too hesitant and shy or may be afraid and scared to challenge and refute. You haven't shown or given me anything yet apart from a confrontational stance based on arrogance and Ignorance. BRAVO, WELL DONE, THREE CHEERS!

[muslim720]

How is it a lie? Just because you said so? You consider something weak or reject something then am I suppose to accept it at face value? Would you do the same? You consider it to be a LIE or what ever then ma brother BACK IT UP. Give me a breakdown, an absolute and clear explanation of why and how.

Did you not ready my post?  If you read it, you will see how it is a lie and why it is weak.

LIES AND HALF-TRUTHS? Again HOW and in WHAT WAY? And you REFUTED IT, Really? WHERE? By all means bring the ball in my court but at least tell me where and when did you serve.

Instead of proving beyond a shadow of doubt that you're a nutjob, please read reply # 135 here and try to salvage your situation: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-usul-al-din-or-usul-al-mathab/120/

This material, if true, is only the thought, opinion and point of view of someone. Nothing from Qoran or Sunah, nothing from Allah or his Messenger. Now a book written by a Shia Scholar, be it Al Majlasi, Al Kulayni, Al Sadooq or who ever, what ever is in that book does not mean that it is the view of the author/writer.

Don't lose sleep over it, I already gave you my reasoning for my copy-pasting: "PS - Just to show you the wonders of copy-pasting".  I clearly included that at the end of my post.  Now if you could man up and respond to post # 135 at: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-usul-al-din-or-usul-al-mathab/120/

[Khaled]

iceman/Ameen will never respond to anything he is ever faced with nor will he ever acknowledge any responses to any of his points.  He just waits a few pages then goes back to asking the same questions and posting the same narrations.  It's a waste of everyone's time as he doesn't even know the basics of Imamiyah let alone any other madhhab.

[muslim720]

iceman/Ameen will never respond to anything he is ever faced with nor will he ever acknowledge any responses to any of his points.  He just waits a few pages then goes back to asking the same questions and posting the same narrations.  It's a waste of everyone's time as he doesn't even know the basics of Imamiyah let alone any other madhhab.

Iceman is Ameen?  No freaking wonder!  The good news is that he has improved a lot.  Back in the days, everything he said would end with a question mark.  Nowadays, only about 50% of his content are questions, lol!