Imamah: usul al-din or usul al-mathab?

[muslim720]

I've always addressed every  comment and point you've made and answered all your questions. I've always given you an in depth analysis and a complete break down. You still wish to close your eyes and play arrogant then that's down to you.

For starters, can you comment on your reference from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah?  Do you even realize that you quoted a book written to refute the Shias to substantiate Shiaism?

Your answer, absolutely. Everyone who is related closely to the Prophet (pbuh) is a member of his household and family.

Very good!  So they, too, must be infallible, as per your logic of Ahlul Bayt (ra)?

There is a difference in thought, opinion and point of view in every madhhab.Scholars differ in thought, opinion and point of view so stop cherry picking what suits your agenda and try to labelling it on the entire community.

Absolutely!  There seems to be a difference in scholarly opinions (among the Shias) but the end result is the same.  Whether Imamah is an usool of deen or madhhab, Sunnis are Hell-bound for rejecting it.

Stop messing about and start acting and behaving seriously.

If only I could have a dollar for every time you lecture members and/or pose questions.

[iceman]

For starters, can you comment on your reference from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah?  Do you even realize that you quoted a book written to refute the Shias to substantiate Shiaism?

Very good!  So they, too, must be infallible, as per your logic of Ahlul Bayt (ra)?

Absolutely!  There seems to be a difference in scholarly opinions (among the Shias) but the end result is the same.  Whether Imamah is an usool of deen or madhhab, Sunnis are Hell-bound for rejecting it.

If only I could have a dollar for every time you lecture members and/or pose questions.

"For starters, can you comment on your reference from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah?  Do you even realize that you quoted a book written to refute the Shias to substantiate Shiaism?"

What is it here that you would like to know. What exactly did I quote from the book and what seems to be your concern?

"Very good!  So they, too, must be infallible, as per your logic of Ahlul Bayt (ra)?"

"Very good" not really. This is the thing that you don't have the faintest of what Shiaism is about apart from what you know through gossip and rumours. Get to know and learn the faith first by asking.

"Absolutely!  There seems to be a difference in scholarly opinions (among the Shias) but the end result is the same.  Whether Imamah is an usool of deen or madhhab, Sunnis are Hell-bound for rejecting it."

"There seems to be a difference in scholarly opinions (among the Shias)"

Not only just the Shias but there are more differences in the Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah because they have more sects and groups than us. That's much more division than us.

"Sunnis are Hell-bound for rejecting it."

Absolutely because Saqifa goes straight out of the window if you don't constantly and continously reject it. Your faith depends on the survival of Saqifa.

"If only I could have a dollar for every time you lecture members and/or pose questions."

You don't need dollars, just do some homework and get knowledge and information before shooting off left, right and centre.

[iceman]

Ma brother Muslim 720 see how I break down and comment and address every single bit of your post. Why can't you do the same?

[muslim720]

What is it here that you would like to know. What exactly did I quote from the book and what seems to be your concern?

My concern was that you quoted an anti-Shia book to supplement your position without knowing that it was written to refute your madhhab.  However, now my concern is also the fact that you do not know what you quoted.  In the world of cyber security, you are what they call a bot (part of a botnet).

"Very good" not really. This is the thing that you don't have the faintest of what Shiaism is about apart from what you know through gossip and rumours. Get to know and learn the faith first by asking.

You said, "Ma brother Muslim 720 see how I break down and comment and address every single bit of your post".  That is not addressing my point; that is deflection.  If those people are Ahlul Bayt (ra) according to Imam Ali (ra), as stated in Nahjul Balagha, and you ascertained that fact, are they infallible (by the virtue of being Ahlul Bayt)?

Not only just the Shias but there are more differences in the Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah because they have more sects and groups than us. That's much more division than us.

Again, deflection!  We are talking about division along the creedal lines, not jurisprudence.  So I will reiterate my point with the hope that you do not deflect it again.  When it comes to your school, our end-result is Hell-fire and I do not even know why you cry "takfeer" when you have been at it since the inception of your madhhab.

Absolutely because Saqifa goes straight out of the window if you don't constantly and continously reject it. Your faith depends on the survival of Saqifa.

What does Saqifa have to do with this?  Imamah is rejected with or without Saqifa on the basis that it is absent from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

You don't need dollars, just do some homework and get knowledge and information before shooting off left, right and centre.

.....says the person who quoted an anti-Shia book to prove Shiaism is true, lol.

[iceman]

My concern was that you quoted an anti-Shia book to supplement your position without knowing that it was written to refute your madhhab.  However, now my concern is also the fact that you do not know what you quoted.  In the world of cyber security, you are what they call a bot (part of a botnet).

You said, "Ma brother Muslim 720 see how I break down and comment and address every single bit of your post".  That is not addressing my point; that is deflection.  If those people are Ahlul Bayt (ra) according to Imam Ali (ra), as stated in Nahjul Balagha, and you ascertained that fact, are they infallible (by the virtue of being Ahlul Bayt)?

Again, deflection!  We are talking about division along the creedal lines, not jurisprudence.  So I will reiterate my point with the hope that you do not deflect it again.  When it comes to your school, our end-result is Hell-fire and I do not even know why you cry "takfeer" when you have been at it since the inception of your madhhab.

What does Saqifa have to do with this?  Imamah is rejected with or without Saqifa on the basis that it is absent from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

.....says the person who quoted an anti-Shia book to prove Shiaism is true, lol.

"My concern was that you quoted an anti-Shia book to supplement your position without knowing that it was written to refute your madhhab.  However, now my concern is also the fact that you do not know what you quoted.  In the world of cyber security, you are what they call a bot (part of a botnet)."

You claim to be a more knowledgeable and informative individual than me so why don't you proved it by saving the crap and just mention what I quoted from the book and refute it. Give me a discussion, don't give me nonsense.

"You said, "Ma brother Muslim 720 see how I break down and comment and address every single bit of your post".  That is not addressing my point; that is deflection.  If those people are Ahlul Bayt (ra) according to Imam Ali (ra), as stated in Nahjul Balagha, and you ascertained that fact, are they infallible (by the virtue of being Ahlul Bayt)?"

Do you even know what the Shia perspective is about the verse of Ta'theer, infallibility and the Ahlul Bayth. Just ask man. That's all it takes rather than imposing on us what you know and have been told through and by means of gossip and rumours.

"Again, deflection!  We are talking about division along the creedal lines, not jurisprudence.  So I will reiterate my point with the hope that you do not deflect it again.  When it comes to your school, our end-result is Hell-fire and I do not even know why you cry "takfeer" when you have been at it since the inception of your madhhab."

Ma brother don't accuse and impose but ask and get to know. That's how you will learn about us. But you need to put your anger and hatred on one side based on what you've been told by means of gossip and rumours. Discuss and debate one matter at a time.

[iceman]

My concern was that you quoted an anti-Shia book to supplement your position without knowing that it was written to refute your madhhab.  However, now my concern is also the fact that you do not know what you quoted.  In the world of cyber security, you are what they call a bot (part of a botnet).

You said, "Ma brother Muslim 720 see how I break down and comment and address every single bit of your post".  That is not addressing my point; that is deflection.  If those people are Ahlul Bayt (ra) according to Imam Ali (ra), as stated in Nahjul Balagha, and you ascertained that fact, are they infallible (by the virtue of being Ahlul Bayt)?

Again, deflection!  We are talking about division along the creedal lines, not jurisprudence.  So I will reiterate my point with the hope that you do not deflect it again.  When it comes to your school, our end-result is Hell-fire and I do not even know why you cry "takfeer" when you have been at it since the inception of your madhhab.

What does Saqifa have to do with this?  Imamah is rejected with or without Saqifa on the basis that it is absent from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

.....says the person who quoted an anti-Shia book to prove Shiaism is true, lol.

"What does Saqifa have to do with this?  Imamah is rejected with or without Saqifa on the basis that it is absent from the Qur'an and Sunnah."

"What does Saqifa have to do with this?"

The people at Saqifah broke off from the main body of Muslims and decided to select their own leader. Only three out of thousands of Muhajir ended up in Saqifah trying to take the matter into their own hands which was slipping away from them.

[iceman]

The people at Saqifah broke off from the main body of Muslims and decided to select their own leader. Only three out of thousands of Muhajir ended up in Saqifah trying to take the matter into their own hands which was slipping away from them.

This was the cause and the very beginning of sectarian division and rife between the Muslims. From there onwards the Muslims divided further and further.

".says the person who quoted an anti-Shia book to prove Shiaism is true, lol."

Lets stop yapping on like a parrot the same thing over and over again. Either discuss it or give it a rest.

[muslim720]

You claim to be a more knowledgeable and informative individual than me so why don't you proved it by saving the crap and just mention what I quoted from the book and refute it.

I just proved that you are full of cr@p!  Irrespective of what you quoted from the book, you quoted from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah which is a book written to refute Shias.  This is like a Jew quoting "Mein Kampf" to legitimize Judaism or Jewish contribution to Germany and Europe.

Do you even know what the Shia perspective is about the verse of Ta'theer, infallibility and the Ahlul Bayth. Just ask man. That's all it takes rather than imposing on us what you know and have been told through and by means of gossip and rumours.

I know more than you which is why you won't provide a direct answer.  The problem is that you restrict the definition of "Ahlul Bayt" to a handful thereby standing against the majority of Muslims (when it comes to defining Ahlul Bayt) including Imam Ali (ra).

Ma brother don't accuse and impose but ask and get to know. That's how you will learn about us. But you need to put your anger and hatred on one side based on what you've been told by means of gossip and rumours. Discuss and debate one matter at a time.

The matters have piled up but you do not have the decency to offer counter-rebuttal for anything.

The people at Saqifah broke off from the main body of Muslims and decided to select their own leader. Only three out of thousands of Muhajir ended up in Saqifah trying to take the matter into their own hands which was slipping away from them.

According to Shia scholars, even Imam Khomeini, the split happened at the time of Imam Ali (ra).  Learn your own madhhab's opinion first!

Lets stop yapping on like a parrot the same thing over and over again. Either discuss it or give it a rest.

There is nothing to discuss!  You were caught presenting quotes from an anti-Shia book to prove Shiaism is correct.  It is your turn to explain why you made such a blunder.

[iceman]

I just proved that you are full of cr@p!  Irrespective of what you quoted from the book, you quoted from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah which is a book written to refute Shias.  This is like a Jew quoting "Mein Kampf" to legitimize Judaism or Jewish contribution to Germany and Europe.

I know more than you which is why you won't provide a direct answer.  The problem is that you restrict the definition of "Ahlul Bayt" to a handful thereby standing against the majority of Muslims (when it comes to defining Ahlul Bayt) including Imam Ali (ra).

The matters have piled up but you do not have the decency to offer counter-rebuttal for anything.

According to Shia scholars, even Imam Khomeini, the split happened at the time of Imam Ali (ra).  Learn your own madhhab's opinion first!

There is nothing to discuss!  You were caught presenting quotes from an anti-Shia book to prove Shiaism is correct.  It is your turn to explain why you made such a blunder.

You haven't proved anything. All you've done is yapp on constantly. If you knew more than me then you most certainly wouldn't yapp on but in fact you'd start talking and communicating. Where did I restrict the Ahlul Bayth to a handful, please provide evidence.

I have plenty of decency.Just stop yapping on and start talking and you'll find out. I know my madhhab and you know yours.Lets just keep it that way. I don't need to learn from you about my madhhab just as you don't need to learn from me about yours. Start to accept reality and facts and get your head straight.

[Khaled]

You haven't proved anything. All you've done is yapp on constantly. If you knew more than me then you most certainly wouldn't yapp on but in fact you'd start talking and communicating. Where did I restrict the Ahlul Bayth to a handful, please provide evidence.

I have plenty of decency.Just stop yapping on and start talking and you'll find out. I know my madhhab and you know yours.Lets just keep it that way. I don't need to learn from you about my madhhab just as you don't need to learn from me about yours. Start to accept reality and facts and get your head straight.

If you had any decency you would be embarrassed by your posts.  سبحان الله, I've never seen a person dodge so much in my life.

[iceman]

If you had any decency you would be embarrassed by your posts.  سبحان الله, I've never seen a person dodge so much in my life.

Why should I be embarrassed by my posts? I think you should be embarrassed about everything you represent. I haven't seen anything positive, constructive and useful from you or him. Is it your defeat on the Mu'tah thread which you want to take out? What's behind your frustration and aggression?

[Khaled]

Why should I be embarrassed by my posts?

Because they are embarrassing.  Like when you quoted the hadeeth "You and your Shi'a are in heaven" without knowing the sources or that its a (obviously fabricated) hadeeth that says that the "Rafidah are Mushriks."  Or when you said Madhhab mean religion.  Or how you don't know about the various 12er sects.  The list is WAY too long.

I think you should be embarrassed about everything you represent.

What about what I represent specifically do you have a problem with?  Personally, I have a problem of your takfeer of the rest of the Ummah and your extremely negative view of Islamic History.  I also find your insistence on quoting fabricated hadeeths, and only the parts the suit your sect, to be an extremely sectarian and negative thing.  Can you please cite something you have a problem with me?

What's behind your frustration and aggression?

Pure projection on your part

[iceman]

Because they are embarrassing.  Like when you quoted the hadeeth "You and your Shi'a are in heaven" without knowing the sources or that its a (obviously fabricated) hadeeth that says that the "Rafidah are Mushriks."  Or when you said Madhhab mean religion.  Or how you don't know about the various 12er sects.  The list is WAY too long.

What about what I represent specifically do you have a problem with?  Personally, I have a problem of your takfeer of the rest of the Ummah and your extremely negative view of Islamic History.  I also find your insistence on quoting fabricated hadeeths, and only the parts the suit your sect, to be an extremely sectarian and negative thing.  Can you please cite something you have a problem with me?

Pure projection on your part

It's not fabricated, some consider it weak and the others differ. What madhhab means depends on which part of the world you live in. Words have different or many meanings like Wali and Mowla. There is no various 12r sects. You can say Shia differ from the 4th Imam and some differ from the 6th. But look at your statement, "how you don't know about the various 12er sects" see your blunder? Forget about the fabricated list you've come up with because you couldn't find anything else against me.

[Khaled]

It's not fabricated, some consider it weak and the others differ.

So you don't believe that a hadeeth that says "The Rafidah are Mushriks" to be fabricated?!

What madhhab means depends on which part of the world you live in. Words have different or many meanings like Wali and Mowla.

There are two problems with your post.  1) The word "madhhab" DOES have a specific meaning when used in Islamic terminology and 2) you were making it seem as if your usage was the correct one.  Therefore, this is another embarrassing blunder which you refuse to admit.

There is no various 12r sects. You can say Shia differ from the 4th Imam and some differ from the 6th. But look at your statement, "how you don't know about the various 12er sects" see your blunder?

No, those are different types of Shi'as (of which there is no known limit); the different types of 12ers are like the following: Usuli, Akhbari, Shaykhi, Ni'matullāhī, Safaviyya, Qizilbash, Alevism, Alawism, Bektashism, Malamatiyya–Qalandariyya, Hurufism–Bektashism and Rifa'i–Galibi.  Each one has its own Wiki page if you would like to get some basic information about your sect.

However, based on how you seem to see Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali as different sects; then every single one of your Marji'yyah is a sect!  Sistani has a sect, Khamani'e has a sect, Shirazi has a sect, Fadlalullah has a sect and so on.  This is of course, may I remind you, based on your definition.

Forget about the fabricated list you've come up with because you couldn't find anything else against me.

Unlike the hadeeth, "you and your Shi'a are in heaven", nothing I said was a fabrication 

[muslim720]

I have plenty of decency.Just stop yapping on and start talking and you'll find out. I know my madhhab and you know yours.Lets just keep it that way. I don't need to learn from you about my madhhab just as you don't need to learn from me about yours. Start to accept reality and facts and get your head straight.

....and with that joke, I would afford you more time to address each item on your growing list of embarrassments.

However, based on how you seem to see Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali as different sects; then every single one of your Marji'yyah is a sect!  Sistani has a sect, Khamani'e has a sect, Shirazi has a sect, Fadlalullah has a sect and so on.  This is of course, may I remind you, based on your definition.

Thank you!  He has a hard time differentiating between "sects" and "schools of jurisprudence".  It is not his fault; listen to any Shi'i lecture and you'll see how they mention "Sunnis, Hanafis, Hanbalis, Shafi'is, Malikis...." like they are not under the same umbrella.

[iceman]

....and with that joke, I would afford you more time to address each item on your growing list of embarrassments.



Thank you!  He has a hard time differentiating between "sects" and "schools of jurisprudence".  It is not his fault; listen to any Shi'i lecture and you'll see how they mention "Sunnis, Hanafis, Hanbalis, Shafi'is, Malikis...." like they are not under the same umbrella.

If they are under the same umbrella then why not one school of thought with difference in opinion.Come on who are you actually kidding with this constant denial of reality and facts.

Four absolutely and completely different schools of thought where one can't pray behind the other and many more severe restrictions. Would you like the list again.

[muslim720]

If they are under the same umbrella then why not one school of thought with difference in opinion.

Ask Ayatollah Sistani, Ayatollah Khamenei, Ayatollah Shirazi and Ayatollah Fadlalullah, or their representatives.  Their answer will be my answer.  Simple!

[iceman]

Ask Ayatollah Sistani, Ayatollah Khamenei, Ayatollah Shirazi and Ayatollah Fadlalullah, or their representatives.  Their answer will be my answer.  Simple!

The Ayatollahs you've mentioned follow one and the same school of thought and have difference in thought, opinion and point of view. You really need to take a good look at yourself.

[Khaled]

The Ayatollahs you've mentioned follow one and the same school of thought and have difference in thought, opinion and point of view. You really need to take a good look at yourself.

LOL, you are so ignorant its baffling; dude, they are all indepedant mujtahids, that's why they have a marjiyyah.  You have an unlimited amout of mujtahids all under the 12er banner, and we have four mujtahids under the Ahl as-Sunnah banner.

Good job ignoring the list of Usoolis, Akhbaris, Ni'matullāhī, Safaviyya, Qizilbash, Alevism, Alawism, Bektashism, Malamatiyya–Qalandariyya, Hurufism–Bektashism and Rifa'i–Galibi and so on... But I've never known you to actually address anything said to you.

And this is why, ladies and gentleman, Allah سبحانه وتعالى warns us from falling into different Shi'as/Sects, look how much it affects someone's sincerity when his goal is to defend a sect at the expense of our religion.  May Allah protect us from such blind sectarianism...

[iceman]

LOL, you are so ignorant its baffling; dude, they are all indepedant mujtahids, that's why they have a marjiyyah.  You have an unlimited amout of mujtahids all under the 12er banner, and we have four mujtahids under the Ahl as-Sunnah banner.

Good job ignoring the list of Usoolis, Akhbaris, Ni'matullāhī, Safaviyya, Qizilbash, Alevism, Alawism, Bektashism, Malamatiyya–Qalandariyya, Hurufism–Bektashism and Rifa'i–Galibi and so on... But I've never known you to actually address anything said to you.

And this is why, ladies and gentleman, Allah سبحانه وتعالى warns us from falling into different Shi'as/Sects, look how much it affects someone's sincerity when his goal is to defend a sect at the expense of our religion.  May Allah protect us from such blind sectarianism...

"LOL, you are so ignorant its baffling; dude, they are all indepedant mujtahids, that's why they have a marjiyyah.  You have an unlimited amout of mujtahids all under the 12er banner, and we have four mujtahids under the Ahl as-Sunnah banner."

You don't have four Mujtahids under the Ahle Sunah banner you have four absolutely and completely different schools of thought and have put them under the Ahle Sunah banner. There's a huge difference which you're trying to hide by wording.

And what about Barelvi, Deobandi, Wahabi, Salafi, Ahle Hadees, Sufi etc what do they come under? Let me guess, AHLE SUNAH WAL JAMA'AH. Yeh, just start sticking everybody under this banner and it makes it all right, perfect and acceptable.

"Good job ignoring the list of Usoolis, Akhbaris, Ni'matullāhī, Safaviyya, Qizilbash, Alevism, Alawism, Bektashism, Malamatiyya–Qalandariyya, Hurufism–Bektashism and Rifa'i–Galibi and so on... But I've never known you to actually address anything said to you."

We don't create a banner and put everybody under there and believe that everyone, anyone and anything is acceptable and goes. We believe in  principles and circumstances.

"but I've never known you to actually address anything said to you."

I'm done with lies. This is something I just can't be bothered with. Everything is there in black and white, all my posts and response.

"And this is why, ladies and gentleman, Allah سبحانه وتعالى warns us from falling into different Shi'as/Sects"

What a blunt, open and white lie. Allah warns us from breaking up and becoming sects, which we clearly have. Four different schools of thought and then different madhhabs, barelvi Deobandi etc. Shias have got nothing to do with it. And no word in the verse means or talks about Shias.

YOU HAVE A LOST CAUSE, GIVE IT A REST!