Imamat or Khalifat

[Qamar Farooq]

Here is the debate brother Hameed had with someone who has been given the nickname 'shia blade runner' at speakers corner. Let the discussion begin.

[Farid]

Blade Runner doesn't seem to be aware that this contemporary Rizvi character has no weight whatsoever. Brother Hameed was clear that Al-Mufeed says that the kufur of those that reject Imams is a matter of Ijma.

I just noticed the image in the bottom left. Oh the cringe...

[iceman]

When it comes to discussions first of all one needs to ask themselves what comes first, references and supportive evidence from and based on Qoran and sunah if the discussion is amongst Muslims? Or does sense and logic, reality and facts come first.

If something isn't logical and doesn't sound sensible and is against reality and facts are we still going to ask for references and evidence direct from the Qoran and Sunah and push the discussion forward?

What about discussions with non Muslims, Qoran and Sunah wouldn't be considered here since they have no belief in it. How would you proceed here?

[Link]

When it comes to discussions first of all one needs to ask themselves what comes first, references and supportive evidence from and based on Qoran and sunah if the discussion is amongst Muslims? Or does sense and logic, reality and facts come first.

If something isn't logical and doesn't sound sensible and is against reality and facts are we still going to ask for references and evidence direct from the Qoran and Sunah and push the discussion forward?

What about discussions with non Muslims, Qoran and Sunah wouldn't be considered here since they have no belief in it. How would you proceed here?

What you stated is beautiful and something Muslims have to reflect about, but don't.  These people are so immersed in conjecture, they don't know the value of reason at all.

[iceman]

Allow me to start of as such;
SHIA POINT OF VIEW.

Did the Holy Prophet (s) of Islam appoint anyone to succeed him in the matter of leading and guiding the Ummah after his demise? Many Muslims, especially Sunnis, argue that the Holy Prophet(s) did not appoint anyone to take his position after his demise. Is this true? Please provide proofs from the holy Quran and reliable Hadiths.

1. Al-Masoudi, the famous historian narrated that all the previous Prophets had successors. Seth succeeded Adam, Ishmael succeeded Abraham, Joseph succeeded Jacob, Aaron and then Joshua succeeded Moses. Simon succeeded Jesus. Who succeeded the Prophet Muhammad (s) in the matter of leading and guiding the Ummah after the demise of the Prophet (s)?

2. It is an indisputable fact that Abu Bakr appointed Omar to succeed him (Sahih Muslim p.1455), and so did Omar for Uthman although indirectly. Similarly, Moawiya appointed his vicious son Yazid, out of his concern for the Ummah of the Prophet (s). Then is it possible that the Prophet of Islam (s) had no concern about the future of his Ummah?

3. Whenever the Prophet (s) left Madina he used to appoint someone to be in charge of the affairs of Muslims. For instance, He appointed Ali when he left Madina for the Battle of Tabouk ((Bukhari 4:1602). He was also appointing leaders for different tribes and towns such as Ta’ef, Yemen, etc. Is it possible that he did not appoint any leader for the Ummah to succeed him after his demise?

Surely he did appoint a successor and that was none other than Ali. The Shia provide three different proofs for this belief.

[iceman]

The Holy Qoran:

There are a number of Ayat in the Holy Quran which prove the doctrine of Imamat as a divine selection:

1/1: “Verily, your guardian is (none else but) God and His Messenger (Muhammad) and those who believe, those who establish Prayers and pay the charity while they be (even) bowing down (in Prayers).” (5: 55).

The commentators of the Quran unanimously agreed that the Aya was revealed to the Prophet (s) regarding Ali, that whilst he was in Prayers, he offered his ring to a beggar.

1/2: “O Messenger! Proclaim what has been sent to you from your Lord, and if you did not, then (it will be as if) you would not have fulfilled His message.” (5:67).

The Ayah under consideration is one of the most powerful Ayat proving the Imamat of Ali as the successor of the Prophet (s) and hence, I would like to draw your attention to the following main notes:

a) Chapter five of the Quran is the last chapter revealed to the Prophet of Islam. Therefore, its rules are not subject to any changing.

b) The Ayah seems to be regarding the most important issue in Islam that, if it is not delivered to the people, the whole message of Islam is not delivered.

c) ‘Al-Ghadir’, written by the Late Amini, is a masterpiece in 11 volumes which deals thoroughly with the above Ayah. The author has collected the quotation of more than 100 companions of the Prophet  (s) that the Ayah had been revealed on the occasion of Ghadir in which the Prophet (s) appointed Ali as his Successor.

[iceman]

2. The Hadith

Hadith, or the words of the Prophet (s) is the second proof of Shias that Imamat is a divine appointment and not an election. There are so many Hadiths from which the leadership of Ali as appointed by the Prophet (s) can be proven. The following are a few of many:

2/1: Hadith of Welayat:

Abu-Es-Haq in his Commentary of the Qoran quoted from Abu-Dhar that: “One day a poor person came to the Mosque asking for help. Nobody helped him except Ali Ibn Abu Talib. Although he was praying, he did not hesitate to help the poor person.

He pointed at his ring offering it to the poor man. The man accepted the ring and pulled it off of Ali’s finger. Upon that, the Prophet raised up his hands and said: ‘O my Lord! Increase my tolerance, ease my task for me… and give me a Minister from my family, Ali, my brother.’ ”(1).

As soon as the Prophet (s) finished his supplication, the angel Gabriel descended to the Prophet with Ayah 55 of Chapter 5 of the Quran as mentioned above (2).

2/2: Hadith of Ghadir:

The Hadith is related to the second Aya mentioned in the last meeting. The Aya was revealed on the 18th of Thil-Hajjah in a place called Ghadir of Khom. The Prophet (s) performed his pilgrimage to Hajj which happened to be his final Hajj performance in the year 9 AH. On the way back from Mecca, whilst being followed by hundreds of Muslim pilgrims, Gabriel came to him with Ayah 67 of Chapter 5. Upon the revelation, the Prophet (s) ordered the caravans to stop around a pool named Ghadir of Khom. It was announced that the Prophet (s) had a very important message to deliver.

The crowd surrounded the Prophet (s) getting prepared to listen to his sermon. The Messenger of God delivered a sermon pointing out many important issues. When the sermon was nearly over he asked people if the Prophet’s guardianship on them is more than that of themselves? “Of course”, cried the crowd. Then the Prophet raised up the hand of Ali Ibn Abu Talib saying: “Whoever I am his/her master, this Ali is his/her master. O God! Love those who love him, and have enmity on those who have enmity on him. Help those who will help him and leave alone those who will leave him alone..”

After the sermon was over, the Prophet (s) asked people to come and greet Ali as ‘The Commander of the Believers’. Abu Bakr and Omar were among the first who came to Ali and greeted him saying: ‘Congratulations Ali! You’ve become our Master and the Master of the Believers’(3).

[iceman]

2/3: Hadith of Manzelat:

It is quoted from the Holy Prophet (s) on a number of occasions to have said about  Ali: “You are to me as Aaron was to Moses, except there is no Prophet after me.” (5). As we already mentioned, the Quran is introducing Haroon to us as the Successor of Moses and the Messenger after him. The Prophet (s) has omitted the second type of relation, i.e. the Prophet-hood and confirmed the Succession.


3. Unique Qualifications

Surely, when Allah selects one of His devotees as a Prophet or the successor of a Prophet, He only so chooses because of their unique qualifications.  (Allah) said: "My Covenant includes not the Zalimeen.” [2:124]. No one in the world could be compared with the unique qualifications that God bestowed upon the pure Family of the Prophet (s). The following are some examples of the preference of Ali over all other companions of the Prophet (s)

1. Faith: “Is then he who is a believer like him who is a Fasiq (disbeliever)? Not equal are they”. [32:18].

Ali (s) never prostrated before any idol, whilst Abu-Bakr, Omar and Othman indisputably have been all worshipping idols sometimes in their lives. Eight years had passed since the rise of Islam and Omar was still an idolater! Even after embracing Islam, on various occasions, he questioned if the Prophet of Muhammad (s) was really a Messenger of God?! [For instance see Ibn Hisham, vol.3 p.331].

2. Knowledge: “Say: Are those who know equal to those who know not?”[39:9].

Ali was the Gate of the City of the Prophetic knowledge. But Omar did not even know the meaning of ‘Abb’ (80:31). Even Ayasha was more learned about the Hadith of the Prophet (s) than Omar [Bukhari, the Book of Jana’ez].

3. Jihad: “Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit.” [4:95].

Indisputably again Ali was the bravest knight of Islam in all the battles. Ali was the one “who would sell his life seeking the Pleasure of God” [2:207] by sleeping in the bed of the Prophet (s). During the battle of Ohod, Ali was among a very few people who stood fast around the Prophet (s) whilst Abubakr, Omar, and many others had fled the battle. The successful combat of Ali against Amr in the battle of Ahzab was equal to the worshipping of mankind and the jinn. And the list goes on. But prior to the peace treaty of hodaybiya, the Prophet (s) asked Omar to enter Makka and inform them that Muslims are not here for fight, his reply was: “Indeed, I am scared of Qoraysh about myself.” [Ibn Hisham 3:329].

[Abu Muhammad]

Allow me to start of as such;
SHIA POINT OF VIEW.

Did the Holy Prophet (s) of Islam appoint anyone to succeed him in the matter of leading and guiding the Ummah after his demise? Many Muslims, especially Sunnis, argue that the Holy Prophet(s) did not appoint anyone to take his position after his demise. Is this true? Please provide proofs from the holy Quran and reliable Hadiths.

1. Al-Masoudi, the famous historian narrated that all the previous Prophets had successors. Seth succeeded Adam, Ishmael succeeded Abraham, Joseph succeeded Jacob, Aaron and then Joshua succeeded Moses. Simon succeeded Jesus. Who succeeded the Prophet Muhammad (s) in the matter of leading and guiding the Ummah after the demise of the Prophet (s)?

All previous prophets had successors? If so, who succeded Simon then since you mentioned about him above?

2. It is an indisputable fact that Abu Bakr appointed Omar to succeed him (Sahih Muslim p.1455), and so did Omar for Uthman although indirectly. Similarly, Moawiya appointed his vicious son Yazid, out of his concern for the Ummah of the Prophet (s). Then is it possible that the Prophet of Islam (s) had no concern about the future of his Ummah?

                   
Don't be selective in your readings. Just look at the history of khilafaat of Abu Bakr and Umar and how Islam spread like no other civilizations in human history had ever achieved. Within a span of only several years, Islam became a superpower and the two existing superpowers of that time either crumbled (the Sasanid) or struggling (the Byzantine) to deal with Islam. That's proved how confident the Prophet (saw) was with his ummah he left behind and not concern as you claimed.

3. Whenever the Prophet (s) left Madina he used to appoint someone to be in charge of the affairs of Muslims. For instance, He appointed Ali when he left Madina for the Battle of Tabouk ((Bukhari 4:1602). He was also appointing leaders for different tribes and towns such as Ta’ef, Yemen, etc. Is it possible that he did not appoint any leader for the Ummah to succeed him after his demise?

Yes, it is possible. Just look at the "sunnah" of your 12th imam. He didn't appoint any leader after ghayba kubra.

Do not say that your 12 imam is still alive and living in this world and that's the reason why he didn't appoint any leader. Your example of Prophet (saw) leaving somebody in-charge of Madinah while he was away will crush that argument.

[Link]

Salam

The Prophets in the past came as groups. They came to prepare the world for Mohammad.

People rejected them because they disliked the Authority the Prophets were given, which was all paving way for humanity one last Messenger.

Their chosen companions in ascension and glorifying and reminding of God were termed "family" in sense others were not, and they were the household, "people of the house" or "the family of the reminder".

The number of successors to the founding Messengers were Twelve Navigating Witnesses who were the True Leaders and Kings of their time.

In the past, because revelation didn't come to the end, there was wisdom to making these Prophets. And as the past, very few times was it that there was no people in need of conveying of the clear proof through a revelation and clarification from a Messenger, most of these Prophets were Messengers.

The recitations were not guaranteed to be safeguarded in the past although God if he wanted to, could have forced the issue.

The final revelation came in a dark time in the world, in a time after failure of humanity to receive the revelations, guard them or support the Messengers.

But never the less, despite Iblis delaying and delaying,   Bani-Israel failing their mission, and Mohammad being foretold by Moses and the Twelve Successors of Moses, there was no going back.

And there was good prophecies for bani-Israel and there was dark prophecies, the former would occur if they obeyed, the latter would occur if they disobeyed. And the latter came true and the promises came true.


The cycle of the night when the truth of God's authority is veiled is something we all have to acknowledge or there would be no Messengers in the first place. Messengers came to establish and manifest and convey the truth of God's Authority and Command which is manifest and hidden, witnessed and unseen.

The night whence the truth is hidden and must be searched for and the dark veils of sorcery is cast upon the people but must be defeated is a hard trial indeed, and although humans can always make it out, it is as Quran says "where it not the mercy and grace of God upon you, you would of followed the Rebellious one except a few".

It is always possible to connect to the light and balance, without a recitation from God, but not much people would do it. Quran is a mercy in this regards, for it teaches the way to think and unlock the locks that close the doors to insight and reflection.

It also is continuous in revealing knowledge, it has all things pertaining to guiding humans, but most people understimate this because they think it's like a normal book.

It's a rope from God by which the leader and guide can manifest wonders is a connect from lowest earth to highest sky (Mohammad). 

The sayings and ahadith of the Mohammad, Ali, and the successors all the way to Hassan Al-Askari, has a wisdom.

The waiting period for Imam Mahdi has a wisdom.

The wisdom is in Quran.

Moses, when he was sent, felt a constriction on his heart, the same constriction that Mohammad was told God knows his breast is constricted by what people were saying, and it is not due to a fault.

And God emphasized it was through Aaron that this occured with Moses, and that Moses affair was made easy through Aaron. Look at the prayer.

This emphasized on the need of Ali. Aaron and Ali and the covenant of Mount Sinai, represents succession, continuation of the Manifest Authority the founders were given.

When humanity rebells against this, and when their hearts turn away from the chosen ones and when they seek to oppress believers and kill those who command to justice and kill the chosen leaders of guidance, mainly the Prophets in the past, and the family of Mohammad pertaining to the end of revelations, they do so because they give rule to their enemies, denied knowledge of the book, and equate in religious authority the choice of people and mix in attributing purity to people through no proofs with those people who are given clear proof regarding their purity and chosen position to guide and leader humanity.

The elaboration of Quran is clear. Yes it could have been clearer, but is is clear. And it is a written in a way to teach us to reflect so that all humans see the clear religion of truth.

It is not simply here to appease Sunnis, who won't even accept what it clearly says regarding Wudoo so let us not expect us them to accept what condemns them and breaks their idols and manifest their polytheistic darkness.

[Abu Muhammad]

1/1: “Verily, your guardian is (none else but) God and His Messenger (Muhammad) and those who believe, those who establish Prayers and pay the charity while they be (even) bowing down (in Prayers).” (5: 55).

The commentators of the Quran unanimously agreed that the Aya was revealed to the Prophet (s) regarding Ali, that whilst he was in Prayers, he offered his ring to a beggar.

Unanimously agreed?? That's what happened when somebody is blindly "copy-pasting" without really studying. What a shame!

I challenge you, @iceman, to prove that verse 5:55 is unanimously agreed.

2/1: Hadith of Welayat:

Abu-Es-Haq in his Commentary of the Qoran quoted from Abu-Dhar that: “One day a poor person came to the Mosque asking for help. Nobody helped him except Ali Ibn Abu Talib. Although he was praying, he did not hesitate to help the poor person.

He pointed at his ring offering it to the poor man. The man accepted the ring and pulled it off of Ali’s finger. Upon that, the Prophet raised up his hands and said: ‘O my Lord! Increase my tolerance, ease my task for me… and give me a Minister from my family, Ali, my brother.’ ”(1).

As soon as the Prophet (s) finished his supplication, the angel Gabriel descended to the Prophet with Ayah 55 of Chapter 5 of the Quran as mentioned above (2)

Have you ever heard of the story of Ubadah ibn Samit (ra) with regard to the verse? If not I recommended you to go and read it. Because why? Because you talked about logic and sensibility as per your post below:

If something isn't logical and doesn't sound sensible and is against reality and facts are we still going to ask for references and evidence direct from the Qoran and Sunah and push the discussion forward?

But certainly, you do not "walk" your talk. Wiser people will find that the story of Ubada ibn Samit is much more logical and sensible compared to the story of Ali.

1/2: “O Messenger! Proclaim what has been sent to you from your Lord, and if you did not, then (it will be as if) you would not have fulfilled His message.” (5:67).

The Ayah under consideration is one of the most powerful Ayat proving the Imamat of Ali as the successor of the Prophet (s).......

Most powerful verse proving imamat?? Poor Twelvers. They have to rely on "mutasyabihah" and not "muhkam" verse to prove one of their most important beliefs. Sad. Really sad....

Not even the word "imam" nor "wali" nor "wasi" nor "successor" nor whatever found in the verse. Even the verse does not talk about any appoitment at all. But yet the verse is the most powerful verse proving the imamat. Hmm... Poor you.

[Abu Muhammad]

2/2: Hadith of Ghadir:

The Hadith is related to the second Aya mentioned in the last meeting. The Aya was revealed on the 18th of Thil-Hajjah in a place called Ghadir of Khom. The Prophet (s) performed his pilgrimage to Hajj which happened to be his final Hajj performance in the year 9 AH. On the way back from Mecca, whilst being followed by hundreds of Muslim pilgrims, Gabriel came to him with Ayah 67 of Chapter 5. Upon the revelation, the Prophet (s) ordered the caravans to stop around a pool named Ghadir of Khom. It was announced that the Prophet (s) had a very important message to deliver.

The crowd surrounded the Prophet (s) getting prepared to listen to his sermon. The Messenger of God delivered a sermon pointing out many important issues. When the sermon was nearly over he asked people if the Prophet’s guardianship on them is more than that of themselves? “Of course”, cried the crowd. Then the Prophet raised up the hand of Ali Ibn Abu Talib saying: “Whoever I am his/her master, this Ali is his/her master. O God! Love those who love him, and have enmity on those who have enmity on him. Help those who will help him and leave alone those who will leave him alone..”

After the sermon was over, the Prophet (s) asked people to come and greet Ali as ‘The Commander of the Believers’. Abu Bakr and Omar were among the first who came to Ali and greeted him saying: ‘Congratulations Ali! You’ve become our Master and the Master of the Believers’(3).

Old stuff. There are quite a number of articles in Twelvershia.net written about Ghadir event. Please search and read them.

2/3: Hadith of Manzelat:

It is quoted from the Holy Prophet (s) on a number of occasions to have said about  Ali: “You are to me as Aaron was to Moses, except there is no Prophet after me.” (5). As we already mentioned, the Quran is introducing Haroon to us as the Successor of Moses and the Messenger after him. The Prophet (s) has omitted the second type of relation, i.e. the Prophet-hood and confirmed the Succession.

Please read the article from the link below in case you haven't.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/07/30/response-to-the-hadith-of-manzila/

3. Unique Qualifications

Surely, when Allah selects one of His devotees as a Prophet or the successor of a Prophet, He only so chooses because of their unique qualifications.  (Allah) said: "My Covenant includes not the Zalimeen.” [2:124]. No one in the world could be compared with the unique qualifications that God bestowed upon the pure Family of the Prophet (s). The following are some examples of the preference of Ali over all other companions of the Prophet (s)

1. Faith: “Is then he who is a believer like him who is a Fasiq (disbeliever)? Not equal are they”. [32:18].

Ali (s) never prostrated before any idol, whilst Abu-Bakr, Omar and Othman indisputably have been all worshipping idols sometimes in their lives. Eight years had passed since the rise of Islam and Omar was still an idolater! Even after embracing Islam, on various occasions, he questioned if the Prophet of Muhammad (s) was really a Messenger of God?! [For instance see Ibn Hisham, vol.3 p.331].

2. Knowledge: “Say: Are those who know equal to those who know not?”[39:9].

Ali was the Gate of the City of the Prophetic knowledge. But Omar did not even know the meaning of ‘Abb’ (80:31). Even Ayasha was more learned about the Hadith of the Prophet (s) than Omar [Bukhari, the Book of Jana’ez].

3. Jihad: “Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit.” [4:95].

Indisputably again Ali was the bravest knight of Islam in all the battles. Ali was the one “who would sell his life seeking the Pleasure of God” [2:207] by sleeping in the bed of the Prophet (s). During the battle of Ohod, Ali was among a very few people who stood fast around the Prophet (s) whilst Abubakr, Omar, and many others had fled the battle. The successful combat of Ali against Amr in the battle of Ahzab was equal to the worshipping of mankind and the jinn. And the list goes on. But prior to the peace treaty of hodaybiya, the Prophet (s) asked Omar to enter Makka and inform them that Muslims are not here for fight, his reply was: “Indeed, I am scared of Qoraysh about myself.” [Ibn Hisham 3:329].

That's proves nothing with regard to Ali's imamah. As for merits, I can bring a lot of sahih hadiths proving the merit of other sahabahs. Ali is not unique.

Please be a little bit smarter when doing "copy-pasting" job.

[Link]

In times of an anointed King by God manifest among the people, it is incumbent to submit to the manifest authority proven by God, it times whence the anointed King by God is hidden from the masses, it is incumbent not to believe what the masses deem is the manifest authority which gets its legitimacy from the very evil falsehood and deception whence the anointed King is hidden. Democratic anarchy is the lesser evil to support when no Leader from God is present, not to give power and authority without proof from God or attribute purity and religious succession to religious authority to people without proof manifested by God. I testify this is what most of Quran is about and I testify both Shiites and Sunnis disbelieve most of the Quran in this regard.

[Hani]

Forget about twelvershia.net's articles on Ghadir, we have an entire website for it:
http://ghadirkhumm.com/

Also an entire website about Nahj:
http://nahjul-balagha.net/

[Abu Muhammad]

Forget about twelvershia.net's articles on Ghadir, we have an entire website for it:
http://ghadirkhumm.com/

Also an entire website about Nahj:
http://nahjul-balagha.net/

Thank you brother Hani. Just realized that the ghadirkhumm website has been updated since my last visit quite some time ago. Really impressive.

[iceman]

Allow me to start of as such;
SHIA POINT OF VIEW.

Did the Holy Prophet (s) of Islam appoint anyone to succeed him in the matter of leading and guiding the Ummah after his demise? Many Muslims, especially Sunnis, argue that the Holy Prophet(s) did not appoint anyone to take his position after his demise. Is this true? Please provide proofs from the holy Quran and reliable Hadiths.

1. Al-Masoudi, the famous historian narrated that all the previous Prophets had successors. Seth succeeded Adam, Ishmael succeeded Abraham, Joseph succeeded Jacob, Aaron and then Joshua succeeded Moses. Simon succeeded Jesus. Who succeeded the Prophet Muhammad (s) in the matter of leading and guiding the Ummah after the demise of the Prophet (s)?

All previous prophets had successors? If so, who succeded Simon then since you mentioned about him above?

2. It is an indisputable fact that Abu Bakr appointed Omar to succeed him (Sahih Muslim p.1455), and so did Omar for Uthman although indirectly. Similarly, Moawiya appointed his vicious son Yazid, out of his concern for the Ummah of the Prophet (s). Then is it possible that the Prophet of Islam (s) had no concern about the future of his Ummah?

                   
Don't be selective in your readings. Just look at the history of khilafaat of Abu Bakr and Umar and how Islam spread like no other civilizations in human history had ever achieved. Within a span of only several years, Islam became a superpower and the two existing superpowers of that time either crumbled (the Sasanid) or struggling (the Byzantine) to deal with Islam. That's proved how confident the Prophet (saw) was with his ummah he left behind and not concern as you claimed.

3. Whenever the Prophet (s) left Madina he used to appoint someone to be in charge of the affairs of Muslims. For instance, He appointed Ali when he left Madina for the Battle of Tabouk ((Bukhari 4:1602). He was also appointing leaders for different tribes and towns such as Ta’ef, Yemen, etc. Is it possible that he did not appoint any leader for the Ummah to succeed him after his demise?

Yes, it is possible. Just look at the "sunnah" of your 12th imam. He didn't appoint any leader after ghayba kubra.

Do not say that your 12 imam is still alive and living in this world and that's the reason why he didn't appoint any leader. Your example of Prophet (saw) leaving somebody in-charge of Madinah while he was away will crush that argument.

Your posts are full of grievance, bitterness and counter attacks. You're not answering or sticking to what is being discussed. What Abu Bakr and Omar did, their performance and achievement during Khilafa has got nothing to do with it. Will continue.