Ibrahim A.S and his Imamah in Quran 2:124

[Mustafa]

Since Shias like to use this verse a lot to prove Imamah, I would like to know something (from any Shi'i who sees this). In the Quran it clearly states the following:

"Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allah" - 16:123

"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him...." - 60:4

These verses are very clear in proving Ibrahim A.S's authority/being a role model. Are there any such verses for the 12 'infallible' Imams?

[Mustafa]

I just noticed my mistake, I typed in Ismail in the title instead of Ibrahim. My bad folks.

[TOAA]

Shia often like to claim that the Quran establishes that a ruler should always be appointed by Allah and that non-divine rule therefore goes against Quran.

Well, if we accept the (fictional) station of imamah, there is not a single verse where a non-prophet is appointed or stated to be an imam.Can shias point us towards such a verse? If not, non-prophets being Imams goes against the quran.

[MuslimK]

I just noticed my mistake, I typed in Ismail in the title instead of Ibrahim. My bad folks.

It's been fixed now.

[iceman]

It's been fixed now.

That's fine. That's all it takes. Just admit the mistakes made by certain Companions and the route they took. Rather than being stubborn about it and putting up a confrontational stance over it.
After all they were human just like you and me. This way we can resolve a lot of problems with in the Ummah due to those mistakes.

[iceman]

Shia often like to claim that the Quran establishes that a ruler should always be appointed by Allah and that non-divine rule therefore goes against Quran.

Well, if we accept the (fictional) station of imamah, there is not a single verse where a non-prophet is appointed or stated to be an imam.Can shias point us towards such a verse? If not, non-prophets being Imams goes against the quran.

"Shia often like to claim that the Quran establishes that a ruler should always be appointed by Allah and that non-divine rule therefore goes against Quran"

For example? Can you give me an example of this claim being made? Where have the Shias made a claim that a ruler has to be appointed by Allah and he has to be a Prophet first before being an Imam? Where did you come up with this. Or how did you join this together.

[iceman]

Since Shias like to use this verse a lot to prove Imamah, I would like to know something (from any Shi'i who sees this). In the Quran it clearly states the following:

"Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allah" - 16:123

"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him...." - 60:4

These verses are very clear in proving Ibrahim A.S's authority/being a role model. Are there any such verses for the 12 'infallible' Imams?

Did the 12 Imams rule before the Quran was revealed or after it. The verse proves that Imamah exists in the Quran and it is from Allah. You're just having problems accepting it.

[Mustafa]

Did the 12 Imams rule before the Quran was revealed or after it. The verse proves that Imamah exists in the Quran and it is from Allah. You're just having problems accepting it.

That doesn't answer my question, are there verses that clearly proves authority of 12 infallible Imams like it does with Ibrahim A.S? Okay let's ignore this for now and I'll say that the verse proves there are going to be righteous leaders after Ibrahim A.S because of this portion of the verse "...[Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

How do you know that this portion of the verse (i.e. "And of my descendants?") wasn't referring to prophets from Ibrahim's offspring like Ismail and Ishaq alayhumus-salam and their offspring that were prophets all the way to the prophet Muhammad PBUH? Have you ever thought of verses like the one below?

"And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient." - Quran 57:26

[MuslimK]

That's fine. That's all it takes. Just admit the mistakes made by certain Companions and the route they took. Rather than being stubborn about it and putting up a confrontational stance over it.
After all they were human just like you and me. This way we can resolve a lot of problems with in the Ummah due to those mistakes.

How is this even relevant to the topic here? Ok, I agree companions made mistakes after all they were humans including Ali. Hope you agree!

[iceman]

That doesn't answer my question, are there verses that clearly proves authority of 12 infallible Imams like it does with Ibrahim A.S? Okay let's ignore this for now and I'll say that the verse proves there are going to be righteous leaders after Ibrahim A.S because of this portion of the verse "...[Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

How do you know that this portion of the verse (i.e. "And of my descendants?") wasn't referring to prophets from Ibrahim's offspring like Ismail and Ishaq alayhumus-salam and their offspring that were prophets all the way to the prophet Muhammad PBUH? Have you ever thought of verses like the one below?

"And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient." - Quran 57:26

[iceman]

That doesn't answer my question, are there verses that clearly proves authority of 12 infallible Imams like it does with Ibrahim A.S? Okay let's ignore this for now and I'll say that the verse proves there are going to be righteous leaders after Ibrahim A.S because of this portion of the verse "...[Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

How do you know that this portion of the verse (i.e. "And of my descendants?") wasn't referring to prophets from Ibrahim's offspring like Ismail and Ishaq alayhumus-salam and their offspring that were prophets all the way to the prophet Muhammad PBUH? Have you ever thought of verses like the one below?

"And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient." - Quran 57:26

That doesn't answer my question, are there verses that clearly proves authority of 12 infallible Imams like it does with Ibrahim A.S? Okay let's ignore this for now and I'll say that the verse proves there are going to be righteous leaders after Ibrahim A.S because of this portion of the verse "...[Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

How do you know that this portion of the verse (i.e. "And of my descendants?") wasn't referring to prophets from Ibrahim's offspring like Ismail and Ishaq alayhumus-salam and their offspring that were prophets all the way to the prophet Muhammad PBUH? Have you ever thought of verses like the one below?

"And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient." - Quran 57:26
[/quote]

You need to take a look at your question. The verse proves three things; 1 It proves that there is such thing as Imamah. 2, Allah chooses and makes Imams. 3, There will be Imams in the offsprings of Abraham. Also note how the verses begins "And remember oh Muhammad s.a.w ". What or why is Allah reminding Muhammad?

Now take a look at your question, why do you need verses in black and white about something (12 Imams) after the Quran was revealed. Isn't logic and reason plus Muhammad's saw saying enough for you to believe?

Why do you sound like those individuals who didn't believe in Allah until they actually saw him. Or you sound like Umar and those who agreed with him that the book of Allah is enough for us and just shund and sidelined Muhammad s.a.w and what ever he had to write and offer.

Can you prove everything from the Quran. Is it necessary that everything has to been proven from the book otherwise it ain't acceptable. We believe Muhammad s.a.w left the book and his progeny and we follow that. You grasp and take what a handful of companions were upto. It's just as simple as that.

Also Allah is mentioning about the past and reminding Muhammad s.a.w were people of the past went wrong. That is a lesson for the nation of Muhammad s.a.w not to make the same mistake as the people of the past which the companions clearly did by following their desire.

[Mustafa]

You need to take a look at your question. The verse proves three things; 1 It proves that there is such thing as Imamah. 2, Allah chooses and makes Imams. 3, There will be Imams in the offsprings of Abraham. Also note how the verses begins "And remember oh Muhammad s.a.w ". What or why is Allah reminding Muhammad?

1. So the word "Imam" simply exists in the Quran, and?
2. And?
3. And?

Where is 12 infallible Imams proven in any of this? You asked "What or why is Allah reminding Muhammad?". So Allah reminded the prophet of Ibrahim A.S's trials therefor 12 infallible Imams? That doesn't really answer me.

I've discussed the possibility of 2:124 referring to prophets due to the verse I gave and you didn't address it yet. You stated "There will be Imams in the offsprings of Abraham", but how does this prove 12 infallible Imams? If we were to go by that, the verse makes a condition for someone to become an Imam which is righteousness. So literally anyone who's righteous from prophet Ibrahim A.S's offspring all the way to the prophet Muhammad S.A.W, and from the prophet S.A.W up until the day of judgement, could be an Imam. It can be in the thousands, it could be anyone, because the verse doesn't in any way provide any specifications other than Imam has to be righteous and from Ibrahim A.S's progeny. Of course that is if we assume the verse isn't referring to prophets from Ibrahim's progeny at all. But again:

"And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient." - Quran 57:26

"And We gave him Isaac and Jacob in addition, and all [of them] We made righteous.And We made them leaders guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakah; and they were worshippers of Us." - Quran 21:72-73

Due to those verses, it's much easier to believe that the verse in Surah al Baqara is referring to the prophets from his progeny. Not your 12 infallible Imams. Also, where does the idea that Imams automatically have the right to political power over anyone else come from? Allah says:

"And We made from among them leaders guiding by Our command when they were patient and [when] they were certain of Our signs" - Quran 32:24

Similar to the previous verse from Surah al Anbiyaa', this suggests that Imams are tasked with calling people to the truth and not for the sake of political power. So what Quranic verse is there to prove that Imams automatically have the right to political power over anyone else and that anyone who opposes them (politically) is a hypocrite that's opposing Allah?

Now take a look at your question, why do you need verses in black and white about something (12 Imams) after the Quran was revealed. Isn't logic and reason plus Muhammad's saw saying enough for you to believe?

"The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion...." Quran 2:185

Can you prove everything from the Quran. Is it necessary that everything has to been proven from the book otherwise it ain't acceptable. We believe Muhammad s.a.w left the book and his progeny and we follow that. You grasp and take what a handful of companions were upto. It's just as simple as that.

I believe that everything that is relevant to one's faith or makes one a Muslim is well established in the Quran. Such as the 5 pillars of Islam, 6 pillars of faith, obeying Allah and His Messenger, etc. If obeying the Imams was so important to one's faith then why wouldn't it be well established in the Quran like the rest of the important stuff I've just mentioned? Should we resort to shady (most likely fabricated) Shia narrations or faulty verdicts based on forced interpretations of ambiguous verses that are influenced by theological biases?

The main reason I'm sticking with the Quran is because it is an indisputable proof upon all of us here. Or do you consider Bukhari, Muslim and others to be proof upon you?

[Soccer]

You are going to have to a take it that blindness to Quran and insights to it from the Sunnah, are possible.

This verse is definitely a proof of Leadership of those chosen by God and was an argument for Mohammad towards Jews and Christians and if you knew how it was an argument, you would know the Twelve princes from Mohammad are implied.
 

That and it's about guidance, and Abraham had leaders succeed him, that Moses and Aaron came and they had leaders succeed them.

God doesn't sent up a proof except if it disappears he replaces with the like of it or better then it.

It's okay if you don't see, just keep praying, and inshallah one day the Quran will click and you will see the clear book for what it is.

Reflect over Quran constantly and the sorcery will eventually break regarding it. I promise.

[Mythbuster1]

You are going to have to a take it that blindness to Quran and insights to it from the Sunnah, are possible.

This verse is definitely a proof of Leadership of those chosen by God and was an argument for Mohammad towards Jews and Christians and if you knew how it was an argument, you would know the Twelve princes from Mohammad are implied.
 

That and it's about guidance, and Abraham had leaders succeed him, that Moses and Aaron came and they had leaders succeed them.

God doesn't sent up a proof except if it disappears he replaces with the like of it or better then it.

It's okay if you don't see, just keep praying, and inshallah one day the Quran will click and you will see the clear book for what it is.

Reflect over Quran constantly and the sorcery will eventually break regarding it. I promise.

No it’s not and you can’t prove it does now go back to cloud cuckoo land where you belong mate.

[Soccer]

No it’s not and you can’t prove it does now go back to cloud cuckoo land where you belong mate.

I have proven it to myself. I'm sorry I've not articulated it to you.

But see the topic about 42:23. It should clarify this matter as well.

[Mythbuster1]

I have proven it to myself. I'm sorry I've not articulated it to you.

But see the topic about 42:23. It should clarify this matter as well.

Well that’s good then you keep it yourself because to a sane mind it wouldn’t make sense so thanks for not articulating that nonsense with me.

Nothing can clarify half baked nonsense ideas that are not clear in Quran, keep banging your head some more infact try a little bit harder.👍

[iceman]

Since Shias like to use this verse a lot to prove Imamah, I would like to know something (from any Shi'i who sees this). In the Quran it clearly states the following:

"Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allah" - 16:123

"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him...." - 60:4

These verses are very clear in proving Ibrahim A.S's authority/being a role model. Are there any such verses for the 12 'infallible' Imams?

"Since Shias like to use this verse a lot to prove Imamah"

We don't use anything just to prove our desire. That's probably your way. The verse;

[iceman]

Since Shias like to use this verse a lot to prove Imamah, I would like to know something (from any Shi'i who sees this). In the Quran it clearly states the following:

"Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allah" - 16:123

"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him...." - 60:4

These verses are very clear in proving Ibrahim A.S's authority/being a role model. Are there any such verses for the 12 'infallible' Imams?

"Since Shias like to use this verse a lot to prove Imamah"

We don't use anything just to prove our desire. That's probably your way. The verse;

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

Why was Muhammad s.a.w told about this? Why was this event mentioned to Muhammad s.a.w and for us the believers? What is Allah reminding Muhammad s.a.w and us? What is the need for this incident to be mentioned?

Now Abraham was tried by his Lord, when he was successful, that's when he full filled or passed then he was made an Imam of the people. Now if Imam means leader like in the translation I've put forward then wasn't he a leader already? If this is just normal and ordinary leadership then what's the whole point, reason and purpose, to mention the incident.

It's you and your kind who are down playing this and for only one reason, that is to protect and save the Shaykhain. That's what it all evolves around. The reputation of the Shaykhain and what they got up to is at stake for you. That's the whole issue between us and you.

Was Abraham not already a leader of the people, Imam of the people, when he was a Messenger? What's the point all Allah reminding and by mentioning this? You and your kind always down play things because of your mindset.

"These verses are very clear in proving Ibrahim A.S's authority/being a role model"

Was he not a role model when he was a Messenger? Was he not a leader of the people when he was a Messenger? Why is this specific verse proving Abraham's authority? Was his authority not proven and established through Messenger status?

[iceman]

"Are there any such verses for the 12 'infallible' Imams?"

What is faith? To believe in something based on logic and reason. Not to believe in something based on evidence, writing or seeing. 'I'm not got to believe in it until I see it' or 'I won't accept it until you show me where it's written'.

The Bible was revealed which is also the book of Allah, after it was completely revealed an incident took place where Jesus (Messenger of Allah) was captured, imprisoned and then was crucified. Crucifixion was the capital punishment, the death penalty at the time and in those days. Can you prove from the book of Allah (the bible) that Jesus actually wasn't crucified?

Can you do that, provide evidence from the book about something after it was revealed? You want me to provide you with evidence from the Qur'an about something after it was revealed, can you provide me with evidence from the book of Allah the bible about something that took place after the bible was revealed that Jesus wasn't murdered nor was he crucified and who actually was crucified instead of Jesus and in his place.

[Soccer]

Well that’s good then you keep it yourself because to a sane mind it wouldn’t make sense so thanks for not articulating that nonsense with me.

Nothing can clarify half baked nonsense ideas that are not clear in Quran, keep banging your head some more infact try a little bit harder.👍

No problem brother. It's one of the verses that contextualize 42:23 and all verses contextualize each other.